I wasn’t sure whether to file this one under ~health or ~health.mental, but since this is a society-level, Zeitgeist-y issue that became a recurrent, public topic of discussion, I think that it...
I wasn’t sure whether to file this one under ~health or ~health.mental, but since this is a society-level, Zeitgeist-y issue that became a recurrent, public topic of discussion, I think that it will fit here the best. Please move the thread if I’m wrong.
So the TLDR of the video is:
First, the creator lists the three most commonly listed causes for the loneliness epidemic, which he compares to items on a BINGO card. These are “technology”, “capitalism”, and “urban sprawl/lack of third places”. The last one is obviously more of an American issue.
He goes through each of those items and then dives into the nuances about why they do contribute to the loneliness epidemic, but how simply “getting rid of them” isn’t going to fix the problem.
The most interesting of the three for me was capitalism. The research shows that the generalized economic model that a nation operates under doesn’t matter all that much, and that very many of the countries that report being the least lonely, happen to lean towards capitalism. He argued (and I agree) that while we should move away from the corporatocracy, we shouldn’t seek to completely implode the system and revert our standard of living back to how things were before the 1800s (my words).
He then brought up three issues that he says are rarely discussed:
He brings up that we just have become more aware of loneliness itself, and that this makes many of us feel lonelier than we are. It’s some kind of society-level bias.
He explains how the way that “our” culture understands friendship has dramatically changed, it now being considered a high-maintenance investment, rather than a natural consequence of being inserted into a social circle. He argues that we need to stop “overthinking” friendship. I’d add that we need to stop thinking about friendships as relationships that we primarily seek to “get something out of”, and rather use them to give something to others, without asking for anything in return from them.
Finally, he delves into the philosophic aspect of loneliness, how it isn’t always an evil or harmful experience for us to feel lonely, and how loneliness has been a fact of life throughout the history of humanity, and also proof that we are “self-aware” (my words).
One point that he made that caught my attention is that loneliness has been high even several generations back, so while it is on the rise, it isn’t a uniquely gen Z phenomenon, as people often argue.
He didn’t present a solution to the problem, so I’ll just finish with this thought: If you feel lonely, then I’m sorry to say, but you’re the only one who can do something about it. Crying about how social media rots our brains (which I agree with), how capitalism turned us all into hyper-individualistic slaves of the corporatocracy (which I agree with), and how the lack of third places makes it hard to hang out (American problem, live in Europe, can’t relate), isn’t going to help you. What is going to help you, is to go out there, face the awkwardness, face the rejections, make the effort that will mostly return empty at first, and invest in relationships with people, until you find a handful of them who are on that same journey. It can be a tiresome endeavor, but it isn’t a complicated one (you learn as you go), and once you do make friends, it can be a highly rewarding achievement for all parties involved.
Edit:
Wow. I am beyond astonished at how catastrophically misinterpreted my piece of advice was:
I wasn’t agitated when I wrote this. I wasn’t angry. I wasn’t trying to be mean. I just found a video that I liked and shared it, with a TLDR and a couple takes of my own.
I take offense with people calling me unempathetic. Judging that from a TLDR with just a couple of personal takes is highly inappropriate, especially given that I experienced loneliness, bullying, heart break, even sexual assault (none of which you knew and I didn’t expect you to), and have always empathized with people who have similarly suffered. I shared this video and my takes to help people, not put them down.
I obviously know that circumstances vary, and that it isn’t easy for some (or maybe it is outright impossible for a few) people to “put themselves” out there. There’s the disclaimer some of you asked for. That being said, there is no way to make friends other than to consistently, intentionally, and voluntarily interact with other people. How is that a lie or unempathetic?
Edit:
I think I figured out why people misunderstood me. I made the mistake of copy-pasting the actual title of the video, rather than writing a better, more descriptive one. The title of the video is obviously clickbait, but the creator of the video wasn’t trying to prove that the “loneliness epidemic” is a myth itself. His point was that what is a myth, is that those three items are the sole culprits. I have a feeling that some people read the title, skipped or skimmed my TLDR, and decided that I was unempathetic for calling the “loneliness epidemic” a myth, which I didn’t.
This feels like a pretty unempathetic take on the subject at hand. Yes, you need to make efforts to make friends. It's also ok to be frustrated about the state and commoditization of community our...
This feels like a pretty unempathetic take on the subject at hand. Yes, you need to make efforts to make friends. It's also ok to be frustrated about the state and commoditization of community our society. I'm not sure why this evokes such a strong emotion in you, but I'd encourage you to consider the folks on here who might feel differently - and who maybe aren't expecting to run headlong into a virtual admonishing.
I see where you're coming from in that parts of OPs post are strongly worded. But I don't know if it's strongly worded enough to make too many assumptions about their emotional state. It could...
I see where you're coming from in that parts of OPs post are strongly worded. But I don't know if it's strongly worded enough to make too many assumptions about their emotional state.
It could also be read as a friendly, if direct, reminder. Is there really enough information to say?
Looking at the bolded bit:
If you feel lonely, then I’m sorry to say, but you’re the only one who can do something about it
I would say that's just objectively true. In the context of many of the larger conversations around isolation, you might say that the various external causes are well covered and the personal responsibility reminder is therefore valuable.
In my view, we should examine the ways society is failing people. Both so that we can find ways to do it better going forward, and so that we can have more empathy and understand that what seems straightforward to one person can be incredibly challenging to someone in different circumstances.
And at the same time we're not children, if we wait for external solutions to our problems, we risk waiting forever.
If he could have “heard” me say it, like the way that I heard in my head as I wrote it out, then he would have heard me giving that piece of advice with a tender, empathetic voice. I mean, it’s...
If you feel lonely, then I’m sorry to say, but you’re the only one who can do something about it...
If he could have “heard” me say it, like the way that I heard in my head as I wrote it out, then he would have heard me giving that piece of advice with a tender, empathetic voice.
I mean, it’s text, so it can be interpreted either way, but he could at least have asked and given me the benefit of the doubt.
Off-topic, but this is the second time I've seen people react strongly negatively to something you've written (though I get where people were coming from with some of your other comments). And I...
Off-topic, but this is the second time I've seen people react strongly negatively to something you've written (though I get where people were coming from with some of your other comments). And I almost wonder if some are a bit "charged-up" seeing your username and making assumptions going forward. Idk, that rubs me the wrong way; feels very reddit-y.
100%. I'm just surprised that some are going into comments without giving the benefit of the doubt. FWIW, I read your comment and didn't think it was judging or anything. Thought it was...
100%. I'm just surprised that some are going into comments without giving the benefit of the doubt. FWIW, I read your comment and didn't think it was judging or anything. Thought it was interesting and well-written. So it was surprising that others interpreted it so strongly!
Wow. I mean. I apologize if what I wrote made you feel like I was admonishing you, but I wrote it with absolute neutrality of emotion. I found the video, watched it, liked it because it was...
...and who maybe aren't expecting to run headlong into a virtual admonishing.
Wow. I mean. I apologize if what I wrote made you feel like I was admonishing you, but I wrote it with absolute neutrality of emotion. I found the video, watched it, liked it because it was interesting to me, wrote a TLDR, and added a piece of advice at the bottom, all without my heart rate going above 65 bpm.
This feels like a pretty unempathetic take on the subject at hand.
Why was my take unempathetic? And what take are you specifically referring to? I actually take offense with that statement. I think of myself as a highly empathetic person. The reason why the video resonated with me and why I decided to share it is exactly because I empathize with people who struggle to make friends. I myself have always been one of those, as I have moved around a lot in life, and have been living abroad since 2011. Why would I be rude to people who can’t make friends when I know how much the loneliness hurts me too? What!?
It's also ok to be frustrated about the state and commoditization of community our society.
Where did I say that it wasn’t? I said that “crying about it isn’t going to help you” to make friends. It OK to lament the state of things, but at the end of the day, the lamentation doesn’t bring you closer to any solution. What are you on about? Why are you putting words in my mouth?
I'm not sure why this evokes such a strong emotion in you...
It didn’t. I was completely chill when I wrote that.
Listen, I don’t know who you are and I have no beef with you, but I would advise you not to make assumptions about people’s emotional state based on a completely neutral piece of writing, that is mostly a TLDR about a video. Do you not see the irony that you’re failing at making friends here with that attitude?
Chill bro. I wasn’t attacking you, or anyone for that matter. Quite to the contrary. I was trying to help. Geez.
I just emphasized it because it’s the main point, that’s it. Wow. So now even bold text can be misinterpreted? OK. Then help me out here and rewrite that paragraph of mine in a way that you think...
The bolded text comes across as entirely blaming people for their own loneliness.
I just emphasized it because it’s the main point, that’s it. Wow. So now even bold text can be misinterpreted?
And a softer, gentler, kinder, more empathetic approach is often the better way to actually help them.
OK. Then help me out here and rewrite that paragraph of mine in a way that you think would have come across better, but doesn’t change my main point.
Again, different person than who you were speaking to, but my two cents is that an easy way to diffuse a written message and make it feel a little “softer” is to use the third person instead of...
Again, different person than who you were speaking to, but my two cents is that an easy way to diffuse a written message and make it feel a little “softer” is to use the third person instead of the second person, i.e. referring to “a lonely person” or “lonely people” or even just “they” instead of “you.” The second person can sound very accusatory, no matter how impartial one attempts to be.*
So, a rewrite that may work: If someone feels lonely, then I’m sorry to say, but they’re the only one who can do something about it.
*Ninja edit: I originally wrote “no matter how impartial you attempt to be,” and rewrote it because it sounded accusatory in my mind lol.
Maybe it’s because I’m an author, but I assumed that bold and *italics are meant to emphasize, not to raise tone of voice. But we’re chatting here, so I can see your point. I didn’t think of that....
Similar to ALL CAPS, bolded text in comments has always come across as someone essentially raising their voice, IMO.
Maybe it’s because I’m an author, but I assumed that bold and *italics are meant to emphasize, not to raise tone of voice. But we’re chatting here, so I can see your point. I didn’t think of that.
But I would also avoid "tough love" type advice in general, TBH.
So what kind of advice would you give to a lonely person? I don’t understand that position. So many times in my life it was tough love (which I absolutely hated at the moment) that literally saved me from destroying myself. I’m not so insensitive that I throw around tough love when it isn’t called for (and in real life, I rarely ever use it), but I don’t think of what I said as “tough love” nor did I say it with such intent or tone of voice.
Hey, I think we're crossing wires here. My intent wasn't to stir the pot, though it seems that what I may have done. We have a really nice community here at Tildes, and one that is normally quite...
Hey, I think we're crossing wires here. My intent wasn't to stir the pot, though it seems that what I may have done.
We have a really nice community here at Tildes, and one that is normally quite open - and often vulnerable - about what is happening in their lives. There have been a number of treads about loneliness, a lack of friends, losing friends as folks age, a lack of community, and many more like them. While stating that you need to take personal responsibility for your own loneliness is true - it isn't always helpful. The same way calling someone fat or poor might be true, it doesn't change their situation. So while I agree with the majority of your points, I felt your finishing thought was a bit harsh. But this may also be a cultural difference, as when I lived in the Netherlands everything was fair game. I'm not intentionally trying to rile you up, nor am I offended or hurt by anything you said; I'm trying to add my perspective that for folks who are currently experiencing loneliness this might drive more self blame than action. That and I should have left the last sentence out, it was unnecessary.
Also, I misread why you chose to bold the section you did which was colored completely from my own experience and community. I'm on our local municipal planning commission and unfortunately I now conflate bolded text with aggression, as a number of our senior citizens like to yell down zoom at us, and when that isn't available, they attempt to yell down email with bold or all caps.
I find it curious that "capitalism" made the list to be debunked, though I've never seen it blamed for the loneliness epidemic quite so directly despite my literally being a communist, but the...
I find it curious that "capitalism" made the list to be debunked, though I've never seen it blamed for the loneliness epidemic quite so directly despite my literally being a communist, but the ways women having increased autonomy is blamed for the loneliness epidemic among men wasn't. I've encountered this sentiment even here on Tildes, so it seems strange not to include it. In my personal experience, the type of person who I've most often seen need the type of advice you endeavor to give about overcoming loneliness oneself is far more likely to blame women and the current dating scene than capitalism.
I also think your proposed "solution" is unempathetic, as another commenter mentioned. Even though I agree with much of it in principle, presenting it as something that's dead simple and foolproof for anyone regardless of their situation is an oversimplification that glosses over a lot of real barriers that individuals often have (outside of the factors cited as the cause of the societal-level "loneliness epidemic."
It also isn't necessarily a solution. People who are seeking a social circle or increased social ties will find the same advice everywhere, and whether or not it works is down to luck. What didn't...
It also isn't necessarily a solution. People who are seeking a social circle or increased social ties will find the same advice everywhere, and whether or not it works is down to luck.
What didn't work for me over a period of 10+ years in the same town:
Joining local groups relating to my interests
Joining local groups relating to potential interests I may develop
Joining online communities and establishing side-contact with particular users
Starting groups relating to my interests where they didn't already exist locally
Joining groups both local and online relating to my marginalised identities (this was the worst)
Attending work social events and having one-on-one lunches with various people in-office
What did work:
Finding a romantic partner and assimilating into one of their social circles
On the flip side, one of the problem with my (now ended) relationship was that I relied too much on my partner for my social interaction, and since there wasn't an extended connected friend group,...
On the flip side, one of the problem with my (now ended) relationship was that I relied too much on my partner for my social interaction, and since there wasn't an extended connected friend group, the result was cutting myself off from my existing friends and my mental health suffering as a result. Tbqh, OP's advice of just getting out there has worked for me -- but often that's thanks to the particulars of my circumstances, and those vary so wildly between individuals.
I'm not saying that's not a risk, I'm saying that finding a social circle isn't as simple as "do this and friends happen" any more than becoming a famous musician is as simple as "make a band and...
I'm not saying that's not a risk, I'm saying that finding a social circle isn't as simple as "do this and friends happen" any more than becoming a famous musician is as simple as "make a band and put yourselves out there".
I'd be curious to understand why it was the worst, but also grok why you might not want to expand on it. The thing nobody says about the 'just find friends' solution is that other people must be...
Joining groups both local and online relating to my marginalised identities (this was the worst)
I'd be curious to understand why it was the worst, but also grok why you might not want to expand on it.
The thing nobody says about the 'just find friends' solution is that other people must be doing the same.
I started attending a board game club. It's a fine "get out and meet people" thing, but it's going to take months to develop any sort of deep meaningful friendship which truely addresses loneliness.
It seemed to be a running theme that groups focused on identity were preoccupied with being marginalised, since the members otherwise had very little in common. And that often manifested as...
It seemed to be a running theme that groups focused on identity were preoccupied with being marginalised, since the members otherwise had very little in common. And that often manifested as expressing serious hatred for the majority outgroup. The online ones being "safe spaces" also led to a lot of oppression olympics.
How do you find a romantic partner if you can't find friends? I'm on the opposite end. I have no issue finding new friends. I constantly make new friends as I get older. Through work and my...
How do you find a romantic partner if you can't find friends?
I'm on the opposite end. I have no issue finding new friends. I constantly make new friends as I get older. Through work and my interests.
Interestingly I've always found a correlation between finding new friends and new partners. I've had periods where both were low and others when they were both quite high. The only difference I...
Interestingly I've always found a correlation between finding new friends and new partners. I've had periods where both were low and others when they were both quite high. The only difference I can think of is if the activities I'm doing are more gendered than others. Like when I mountain bike it's largely men and their male friends that join us so I never really meet women. But when I play pick-up volleyball or climb we tend to have a 40-60 split men women so I end up meeting plenty of perspective partners. And then there are activities like pottery where I'm the only man amongst 20 women, which if I wasn't already hitched, would be an absolute goldmine.
Huh, this comment made me realize that in some ways it's oddly easier to find a romantic partner than friends. With romance, it's normal to go on dates with effective strangers to test...
Huh, this comment made me realize that in some ways it's oddly easier to find a romantic partner than friends.
With romance, it's normal to go on dates with effective strangers to test compatibility. Just look at how many people exchange numbers knowing nothing about each other because they found the other person attractive. The whole point of a first date is to test the waters and see if there's a spark.
There isn't really a platonic equivalent to dates though. Friendships tend to grow more organically over time, usually after finding common interests or other common ground... Which can be hard to gauge in a single meeting if said interests don't come up. Without knowing that there's often no incentive to exchange contact info, let alone meet again. And even then, it usually takes a few interactions to decide to arrange intentional meetings.
Both have the potential to grow organically over long time or have that instantaneous spark once you get really talking, but romance allows for more spontaneous connections to initiate that first, real contact. Even in activities with both potential partners and friends, it's easier to randomly ask out a stranger to test the waters on a date than identify which strangers can become good friends.
Yeah I've always been surprised that there aren't many dedicated solutions for meeting new friends as opposed to dating -- but then again, I don't know if the same approach would be healthy in...
Yeah I've always been surprised that there aren't many dedicated solutions for meeting new friends as opposed to dating -- but then again, I don't know if the same approach would be healthy in searching for friends.
The one advantage friendship has as a counter is that you can often make friends through someone else -- if you make friends with one person and they invite you to some sort of group event or activity, maybe you hit it off with the rest of their friends and gain a larger friend group. While this isn't completely lacking in parallels for dating, the one-on-one nature of it for most people does change the situation there a lot.
That’s funny, but might actually work. Great idea. I’m going to suggest pottery classes to the next gentleman who asks me for advice on how to meet prospective female dating candidates.
That’s funny, but might actually work. Great idea. I’m going to suggest pottery classes to the next gentleman who asks me for advice on how to meet prospective female dating candidates.
I am very sorry that all the effort that you put in throughout those ten years yielded no success in making friends. I am glad to hear though, that finding a romantic partner has also helped you...
I am very sorry that all the effort that you put in throughout those ten years yielded no success in making friends. I am glad to hear though, that finding a romantic partner has also helped you to assimilate into a welcoming social circle. I’m really happy for you.
That being said, I can’t think of the advice that I gave at the end as anything but the solution. How else are you going to solve this problem other by doing something about it? If you sit still, then it won’t go away. In your specific case, not putting yourself out there, would have meant that you wouldn’t have met your significant other, so you did something about it, and repeated the benefit. That was my point.
I met my partner because I gave up on trying to make friends and instead specifically sought a romantic relationship through dating sites. My point is that it's not a problem that can be solved...
I met my partner because I gave up on trying to make friends and instead specifically sought a romantic relationship through dating sites.
My point is that it's not a problem that can be solved through sheer force of will simply by taking action. You need factors in place that are outside of your control, otherwise you can spend a lifetime getting precisely nowhere.
I can’t imagine what those factors could be. The only time where I was completely unable to intentionally go out and seek friendships, was when I got into a relationship with a woman who, through...
You need factors in place that are outside of your control, otherwise you can spend a lifetime getting precisely nowhere.
I can’t imagine what those factors could be. The only time where I was completely unable to intentionally go out and seek friendships, was when I got into a relationship with a woman who, through emotional blackmail and gaslighting, succeeded in isolating me from everyone I knew. But even then, I eventually did something about it: I broke up with her.
Can you give me an example of factors that are completely out of someone’s control?
I also don’t think that this has anything to do with willpower. I think that it has to do with taking initiative. I see those as unrelated things.
I'm not talking about being able to seek friendships, I'm talking about being able to find them. In short, a friendship requires two people, and you can only control your own end. On the other end...
I'm not talking about being able to seek friendships, I'm talking about being able to find them.
In short, a friendship requires two people, and you can only control your own end. On the other end you need someone who 1) is open to making a new friendship, 2a) has the time/energy to devote to one 2b) at the same time(s) you do, and 3) vibes with you personally.
I see. Still, I think that the majority of those who live in cities are surrounded by enough people that there should be a significant number of individuals who check all of those squares. I think...
I see. Still, I think that the majority of those who live in cities are surrounded by enough people that there should be a significant number of individuals who check all of those squares. I think that, especially in our time, where we’re all part of some niche community or another, because of the large variety of interests that one may have these days, it should be relatively easy to find at least a handful of people to befriend within that community. So, while I do know what being lonely feels like, but I just can’t relate to not being able to do anything about it, because I always did.
See that's exactly what I meant by "do this and friends happen". Just because you personally had no trouble doesn't mean anyone can just "do something about it", because it fundamentally is not...
See that's exactly what I meant by "do this and friends happen". Just because you personally had no trouble doesn't mean anyone can just "do something about it", because it fundamentally is not within their control.
The creator just stated that while the way capitalism is put into practice (as a corporatocracy) in the States, does contribute to the loneliness epidemic, but isn’t its root cause. I thought my...
I find it curious that "capitalism" made the list to be debunked...
The creator just stated that while the way capitalism is put into practice (as a corporatocracy) in the States, does contribute to the loneliness epidemic, but isn’t its root cause. I thought my TLDR had made that clear.
... but the ways women having increased autonomy is blamed for the loneliness epidemic among men wasn't.
Why wouldn’t it? I never heard that one before. How is that related to loneliness?
I've encountered this sentiment even here on Tildes, so it seems strange not to include it. In my personal experience, the type of person who I've most often seen need the type of advice you endeavor to give about overcoming loneliness oneself is far more likely to blame women and the current dating scene than capitalism.
Are you talking about my suggestion for people to go out and do something about their loneliness? I don’t see how my advice—which is to take matters into your own hands and not let circumstances out of your control dictate your lifeis a bad thing, let alone how it is even related to some absurd idea about women being to blame for the loneliness epidemic (which again, is the first time I have ever heard). And what do you mean by “people like me”?
...presenting it as something that's dead simple and foolproof for anyone regardless of their situation is an oversimplification that glosses over a lot of real barriers that individuals often have...
And how was that not obvious from the advice that I gave? Of course I agree with you. Should I have added that as a disclaimer at the end to sound more empathetic? “My advice, of course, only applies to your case if you happen to have no real barriers that a lot of people have.” I mean, I don’t know. I thought that was obvious. I did say until you can.
I'm glad you haven't heard that one before, but unfortunately it's too common in my experience as well. It's often a bit coded rather than explicitly blaming women, until you get into the really...
Why wouldn’t it? I never heard that one before. How is that related to loneliness?
I'm glad you haven't heard that one before, but unfortunately it's too common in my experience as well. It's often a bit coded rather than explicitly blaming women, until you get into the really gross incel territory where the masks come off ("women should be forced to have sex with incels instead of using sex toys", "we should have legally enforced monogamy"), but it's adjacent to the "I'm a nice guy and women don't want me" framing of things. These are people who say women have too high of standards now (because they have options), so it's clearly their fault.
Are you talking about my suggestion for people to go out and do something about their loneliness? I don’t see how my advice—which is to take matters into your own hands and not let circumstances out of your control dictate your lifeis a bad thing, let alone how it is even related to some absurd idea about women being to blame for the loneliness epidemic (which again, is the first time I have ever heard). And what do you mean by “people like me”?
I don't think this was related to your suggestion particularly. I've also seen this sentiment here on Tildes and across the internet, especially in the rise of incels, conservative Christian nationalist ideology and in the "manosphere." I understand if you haven't seen it, but a Google search brings up dozens of "stop blaming women for men's loneliness epidemic."
For the record, that portion of my comment had absolutely nothing to do with your advice -- as I've mentioned in other replies here, the advice you give largely reflects what has actually worked...
Are you talking about my suggestion for people to go out and do something about their loneliness? I don’t see how my advice—which is to take matters into your own hands and not let circumstances out of your control dictate your lifeis a bad thing, let alone how it is even related to some absurd idea about women being to blame for the loneliness epidemic (which again, is the first time I have ever heard). And what do you mean by “people like me”?
For the record, that portion of my comment had absolutely nothing to do with your advice -- as I've mentioned in other replies here, the advice you give largely reflects what has actually worked well for me personally! I was not talking about "people like you" nor was I trying to draw any association between you and the guys who discuss the issue this way -- I was just curious why this facet of the conversation re: the loneliness epidemic wasn't discussed/debunked in the video.
I was talking about other content that I've encountered online in which women's increased autonomy (and thus ability to say no to relationship opportunities that don't meet their standards) is blamed for the "male loneliness epidemic." That's the search term that will get you results of the type I'm describing, in which the loneliness epidemic is framed as something unique to men and often as something women are subjecting men to by not dating them. It's something that tends to surface in a similar context to how "friendzoning" once did, in my experience. It's come up often enough in this context online that I get nervous whenever I see the term "loneliness epidemic" because I don't know until I read further whether they're referring to the actual society-wide problem that affects people of all genders or whether they're talking manosphere bullshit.
I recall encountering this sentiment occasionally in the past here on Tildes, but after doing some quick searching I wasn't able to find anything that quite fit, so I'm either misremembering or the relevant topics and comments were deleted (probably for the best). It's pretty easy to find examples of what I mean on sites like reddit, though (perhaps unsurprisingly). Here is a thread from r/NoStupidQuestions in which OP's questions/assumptions reveal the way this is typically talked about (and the top comments are mostly reasonable takes) and a post on r/Feminism in which people vent about how frustrated with the "male loneliness epidemic" take. Here's a reddit post that focuses on debunking when Scott Galloway (whose content has absolutely been posted on Tildes before) discussed the "male loneliness epidemic" on Diary of a CEO, as an example that discussion of the "male loneliness epidemic" in this context isn't just something you find on reddit.
I was wondering why, given that he was taking the time to address what I'd consider to be fairly nuanced differences between different proposed causes for the loneliness epidemic, he didn't address this one that's rather easy to debunk. Maybe he didn't want to give it airtime to make it seem legitimate to the same degree as the other potential causes he discusses here, which are all a lot more grounded in reality. idk, but it's just something that I was curious about.
I actually think technology can help with loneliness. Now I'm not one of those people who thinks tech can solve everything. But I don't agree with the wide brush that technology is making us more...
I actually think technology can help with loneliness. Now I'm not one of those people who thinks tech can solve everything. But I don't agree with the wide brush that technology is making us more lonely, either.
For me, technology and the Internet has kept me from loneliness. I'm an introverted single guy with no kids. My primary group of friends—about 10 of us— is online. I say online, but that's just the primary medium we use; I've met my friends in real life many times over over the last 10yrs or so. I've since worked with some of them and currently work with others.
We're on Teamspeak/Discord almost every night, bullshitting, gaming, watching movies and shows, discussing news and politics; generally entertaining each other. But also, we've had many real talks about personal issues with health, work, family, relationships, money, etc. These are real friendships. We have helped each other get jobs. We've helped each other move (for those who live in the same areas). We've vacationed together. We've stayed in each other's houses if visiting. We've met each other's families. These are real relationships, because of the Internet, because of technology.
That said, I also understand that not everyone is OK with this type of primarily Internet-mediated relationship. I'm not Gen Z; I'm a Millennial. I still get some weird looks from fellow cohorts when I tell them that my friends are online. That we can't just go out for beers on a whim, because we're spread across the country or even the world. For some people, that's not enough. They want a physical relationship, be it platonic or romantic, where they can reach out and touch someone and be in the same physical space with another, regularly. And tbf, I'm not sure I could do a romantic relationship that started online, in like a game or place like this. Even an LDR seems like something that would be very difficult for me.
For others, they're just so busy, any medium doesn't really work. I have a friend, a former coworker, who's married and has 3 kids, elementary-age down to 1yo. They moved out to another city about 3yrs ago for her husband's job, where they know no one. Her husband's family is across the country, while her's are literally overseas. She's WFH and trying to maintain and advance her career. She feels trapped in her house, with her family, in a city she doesn't really like. On the rare chance she has some extra time, she tries to go out and meet people, mainly via playdates for her kids...and it's just not working for her. She thinks the people there are weird, lol. But again, technology to the rescue. She talks with me and our other friend, another coworker of ours (former coworker for me), via WhatsApp messaging and video calls, and sending memes via Instagram. But I know that's not enough for her. She misses our happy hours and hanging out with her other friends back home.
I suppose there really isn't any one solution. At the end of the day, "Get out there, put some effort in, and meet people!" is just a platitude. You can do all that and come out with friends—I spent like 2-3yrs with my online group, barely speaking because I'm shy, but I did keep showing up week after week, then night after night, until I felt comfortable with them—or come out with nothing. Moving from group to group, never really finding a home, a partner, a connection. I've been there, too.
That was part of the nuance that the creator of the video touched on, that technology isn’t the root cause of the loneliness epidemic, and that in many cases, it actually helps people to feel less...
But I don't agree with the wide brush that technology is making us more lonely, either.
That was part of the nuance that the creator of the video touched on, that technology isn’t the root cause of the loneliness epidemic, and that in many cases, it actually helps people to feel less lonely. It isn’t a perfect solution, but it also isn’t always the problem.
I suppose there really isn't any one solution. At the end of the day, "Get out there, put some effort in, and meet people!" is just a platitude. You can do all that and come out with friends [...] or come out with nothing.
That can happen and I’m sorry if that’s been your experience. I do want to know what you think the solution is, if any. If you were, let’s say, a therapist, would you tell someone in that situation to do something about their circumstances? And if yes, what?
For what it's worth, I believe you're correct. I felt aggravated reading the title and was expecting to find content that denies the existence of anything that could be called a loneliness...
I think I figured out why people misunderstood me. I made the mistake of copy-pasting the actual title of the video, rather than writing a better, more descriptive one.
For what it's worth, I believe you're correct. I felt aggravated reading the title and was expecting to find content that denies the existence of anything that could be called a loneliness epidemic. I also half expected that this post wouldn't have a decent summary of the video. (Both of these expectations are unrelated to your username - I don't pay attention to those - just my basic online pessimism I guess.) I decided that if that's the case, I would not waste my time by going to see the video.
Then I started reading and felt happy to see that you wrote a more than adequate summary. When I reached the following line, I started to also feel at ease regarding the video itself:
He goes through each of those items and then dives into the nuances about why they do contribute to the loneliness epidemic, but how simply “getting rid of them” isn’t going to fix the problem.
After that, I didn't interpret anything in this post as being negative or dismissive in tone. With perhaps one small exception: the use of the word "crying". It seems a tad blamey in tone against those who express their unwanted situation. That one word did not change the overall interpretation that this post was made in good faith.
Noted. I’ll refrain from using expressions like “crying about” the next time. Someone else pointed that out as well. Next time I’ll also be more careful with the title. It’s sad, because not too...
Noted. I’ll refrain from using expressions like “crying about” the next time. Someone else pointed that out as well.
Next time I’ll also be more careful with the title. It’s sad, because not too long ago, I shared a different video where the title was so bad that I decided to change it (and it clearly helped). For some odd reason, it didn’t occur to me to change this one, which happens to be very obviously clickbait-y.
...Or, you know, just accept that sometimes people misinterpret things, you can't always pre-empt every misunderstanding, and on a forum like this that is founded on the principle of trust,...
Next time I’ll also be more careful with the title.
...Or, you know, just accept that sometimes people misinterpret things, you can't always pre-empt every misunderstanding, and on a forum like this that is founded on the principle of trust, misunderstandings are easily sorted out. It's all good.
As an American, I can second that the lack of third places feels like more of an American problem. When we went to Costa Rica a few years ago, the part that stuck with me the most was the sense of...
As an American, I can second that the lack of third places feels like more of an American problem. When we went to Costa Rica a few years ago, the part that stuck with me the most was the sense of community everywhere. The one that sticks in my mind most was at this little grocery/convenience store in a shopping center by a beach, there was a TV screen with a slideshow of locals at various events.
I don't really see anything like that in America. And there aren't many places to just hang out besides our own houses unless you happen to live in a major city like NYC or maybe beach towns. As someone living in the suburban midwest, pretty much all the places I can go have some activity attached by default, whether it be an actual activity like a movie (which prevents talking), or getting drinks or food (which can be tricky when you have a big group, and also comes with a soft time limit). All the options also cost money, so that's another limitation.
One other issue with all those: it's hard to meet and make new friends. Not everyone can strike up a friendship on their first meeting, and most of those activities are one-time things rather than regular routines, so the odds of running into the same people repeatedly are low. Just... Really frustrating, and makes me glad I already have some lifelong friends from high school and college. I feel bad for one of my friends who moved cross-country, they're struggling with loneliness hard.
I’ve never felt that third places are dying out in Europe, and I’ve lived in Portugal, Germany, France, Switzerland, Ukraine, Latvia, and Finland. Every town or city I’ve been in, I’ve always...
I’ve never felt that third places are dying out in Europe, and I’ve lived in Portugal, Germany, France, Switzerland, Ukraine, Latvia, and Finland. Every town or city I’ve been in, I’ve always found third places (usually in walking distance, or very accessible via public transportation) for people to hang out at. No cars required. That’s what the creator touches on, urban sprawl and the necessity of cars in (specifically) the USA.
But what third places do you see in Europe that don't exist in America? Sure, you may not need a car to get to them...if you live in a large city...but I don't see what exists in Europe but not...
But what third places do you see in Europe that don't exist in America? Sure, you may not need a car to get to them...if you live in a large city...but I don't see what exists in Europe but not America. And to be clear, much of Europe (including Western Europe) has really shitty public transit and you do need a car to go most places in anything resembling a convenient amount of time.
Well, I can’t say much about the United States because I only lived there for 1.5 years and in a “bubble” of sorts. I don’t know the reality of what the States are in general. The only things that...
Well, I can’t say much about the United States because I only lived there for 1.5 years and in a “bubble” of sorts. I don’t know the reality of what the States are in general. The only things that I know is that every time I hung out with someone, I needed to drive, long distances. I also hear Americans often complain about the loss of “third places” (malls, cafés, libraries, etc.). Maybe some places in America aren’t as affected by this phenomenon.
Third places have definitely been lost, but they seem to me to have been lost to more or less the same degree in Europe, with the lower church attendance rates making things even worse.
Third places have definitely been lost, but they seem to me to have been lost to more or less the same degree in Europe, with the lower church attendance rates making things even worse.
Absolutely disagree that they've been lost at remotely the same rate. Culturally the ability to hang out for an extended time at a restaurant or something is wildly different here in Berlin than...
Absolutely disagree that they've been lost at remotely the same rate. Culturally the ability to hang out for an extended time at a restaurant or something is wildly different here in Berlin than it is in the US, and it's a huge culture shock to me whenever I visit home. One of the first words I learned upon moving to Germany was "Stammtisch," and that type of regularly hanging out at a third place is vastly more common here than where I grew up in the states.
Czech beer culture does increase alcoholism I'm sure, but the advantage of it is that it's completely normal and even expected to regularly just sit around a table for 4+ hours and talk (and not...
Czech beer culture does increase alcoholism I'm sure, but the advantage of it is that it's completely normal and even expected to regularly just sit around a table for 4+ hours and talk (and not drinking has become much more normalized and accepted in the last decade as well).
For people who aren’t religious, I was reminded that I really like bouldering venues for the purpose of meeting new people. Bouldering is a fun sport that attracts people from all walks of life....
For people who aren’t religious, I was reminded that I really like bouldering venues for the purpose of meeting new people. Bouldering is a fun sport that attracts people from all walks of life. And since people stand around and sit down in between the climbing, there is always a lot of chit-chatting. It has a great community. And it’s something that one can do on a regular basis.
But church is great for meeting new people indeed. It usually is a weekly social gathering of people who, in most cases, even have some shared interests outside of religion (likely because they have a shared interest in the same religion to begin with, and therefore similar interests). The larger one’s church is, the greater the potential for them to expand their social circle through it. I met my wife through church, and so did almost everyone else who we know within our denomination. Almost every married couple in our generation has children now, and these children are growing up surrounded by a community of church goers. If they don’t leave the church, then they’ll always have a network of people that will enable them to make more friends and potentially get acquainted with a significant other later in life.
I actually do quite a bit of bouldering too. Maybe it's just the gyms or maybe I'm a little more closed off-looking because of the language barrier, but I haven't even seen people standing around...
I actually do quite a bit of bouldering too. Maybe it's just the gyms or maybe I'm a little more closed off-looking because of the language barrier, but I haven't even seen people standing around watching others climb since I moved to Europe.
I was expecting to make climbing buddies by just going to the gyms and maybe giving a fist bump to the guys who are climbing near me or who I see regularly, but that's been literally impossible. Everyone just seems to talk to the people they're already with and to not even watch others here. I've been to four gyms and all of them have been disappointing socially compared to the only one I went to in the US.
It is interesting that they actually sell food and have tables at the gyms here, but I rarely see anyone taking advantage of that. Like I said, maybe I just got lucky in the US, or have been unlucky here so far.
I have a guess on why loneliness is a harder issue for today than before: family + societal structures have changed radically. It used to be that the loner would still be working alongside people...
I have a guess on why loneliness is a harder issue for today than before: family + societal structures have changed radically.
It used to be that the loner would still be working alongside people they've known their whole lives. The loner would still need to eat with a large family. The loner has a bunch of cousins next door, goes to Church with the same people week after week, and buys/sells things at the same general store their entire life. They'd still be invited to a whole whack of community stuff, to which they could show up for any length of time they want.
Today's loner grew up as a latched-key-kid in the 80s, whose parents have moved away from extended family for affordability/job mobility reasons, and whose school chums have all moved away for the same. The new loner's world began with more fragmentation, and has grown more isolating still at every turn.
Many people have a small "pool" of resources which allow them to draw from in order to make new friends. As each year passes, some of those connections are moving away or behaves radically differently or are unable to continue socializing. I would posit that the modern person has to "put themselves out there" far more many times than ever before in order to make 1 sustaining connection. And people's pools have different rates of replenishment. Some of us are simply too worn out and too hurt to try again and again and again right now, and at the point where hearing even well meant good advice can sound like "well then that's just your own fault".
There are things that don't rely on just the loner, though. This is where friends, neighbours, and strangers come in. This is where we come in.
Big brothers/Big sisters is another one. My friend tells me they're in dire, desperate need for grown men volunteers to show young men a different way from the Manosphere.
Divorce / single parent support societies. The men's circles don't have a lot of men coming in, it's true, but they will more likely do the drop in / drive by for resources, and extra hands to give that extra smile and "how you doin today?" could be what motivates them to give the support circles a try.
Those of us who have the extra bandwidth can volunteer for similiar community efforts: we can make it easier for them to be hoisted up when they decide to reach out.
In my perception, in the context of the US at least the greatly increased frequency of moving in the past several decades is a massive yet under-acknowledged factor when it comes to loneliness....
Today's loner grew up as a latched-key-kid in the 80s, whose parents have moved away from extended family for affordability/job mobility reasons, and whose school chums have all moved away for the same.
In my perception, in the context of the US at least the greatly increased frequency of moving in the past several decades is a massive yet under-acknowledged factor when it comes to loneliness. Increasingly people have had to leave their hometowns and in some cases move cross-country to find opportunities, which removes them from the communities they were raised in, and then have to move several more times after that to move up to the next rung in school, career, etc. Some number then move yet again after establishing themselves to get away from exorbitant cost of living in major cities, potentially in effort to create enough financial margin to start a family.
This results in a huge number of chronically-uprooted individuals who never stay any one place long enough to make lasting connections. They might have everything else going for them — education, a good paycheck, maybe even a decent amount of spare time thanks to a well paid specialist job — and yet still have trouble making friends.
You just nearly perfectly described most of my adult life. By all metrics I'm very successful, but maintaining friendships has been a constant uphill battle, and I really only have a handful of...
You just nearly perfectly described most of my adult life. By all metrics I'm very successful, but maintaining friendships has been a constant uphill battle, and I really only have a handful of friends left in the wake of it all. I'm largely OK, in part because I have been able to connect a little bit in online spaces like Tildes and Discord to satisfy that "acquaintance" level of interaction. But there were definitely times where it was a struggle.
I'm not sure data backs this up. Due to the massive housing undersupply in the US (many cities simply don't build housing any-more), Americans are moving at the lowest rates in a century:...
In my perception, in the context of the US at least the greatly increased frequency of moving in the past several decades is a massive yet under-acknowledged factor when it comes to loneliness.
I’m speaking mainly from personal experience, so it’s entirely possible that what I’ve seen is the exception and not the norm. That said, everybody from my high school graduating class (late 00s)...
I’m speaking mainly from personal experience, so it’s entirely possible that what I’ve seen is the exception and not the norm. That said, everybody from my high school graduating class (late 00s) ended up moving out and the overwhelming majority of people I’ve had extensive interactions with in cities are transplants from all over, most of whom had similar stories of needing to go where things were happening.
It would make a lot of sense if the trend of moving into cities sharply reversed following the pandemic, though. It’s what both myself and several of my colleagues did, primarily for the crazy cost savings. It’s true that it makes socialization more difficult… it takes a lot more initiative to go out and do things when doing so requires driving out, finding parking, etc.
This is so true. Not that things Were Better™, but centuries ago, most people grew up in a village, and lived there all their lives. They had no chance but to make friends with those who they...
This is so true. Not that things Were Better™, but centuries ago, most people grew up in a village, and lived there all their lives. They had no chance but to make friends with those who they knew. The lack of mobility wasn’t ideal, but being repeatedly uprooted throughout life, as you said, wasn’t an issue either. And I know what that’s like. I can’t count with my fingers in how many countries I’ve lived anymore. What could be done at a macro-societal level to balance this out? I don’t. However, knowing what I know today, I have taken matters into my own hands by choosing a place where to settle and do my part to build a social circle around myself. That’s the only thing that individuals can do, I think.
Absolutely, and the kind of community that North Americans aspire to are also harmful towards relationships as well: I'm talking about the suburban single family acer lot homes in an HOA. Folks...
Absolutely, and the kind of community that North Americans aspire to are also harmful towards relationships as well: I'm talking about the suburban single family acer lot homes in an HOA. Folks drive in and drive out and you're nearly too far away from the fence line to wave to a neighbour. There's nothing to walk to within a mile radius sometimes.
I've also been to a couple TX and CA suburbs where there's no sidewalk, the air is 30°C+ outside in December, and the lawn is full of fire ants. And full disclosure I currently live in a rural area with acre lots, where it's freezing half the year and it's a 3km walk to the library.
I would really agree with that. I moved probably half a dozen times in my youth. And it really messed me up in a lot of ways. I was incredibly socially maladapted as a kid and was constantly...
I would really agree with that. I moved probably half a dozen times in my youth. And it really messed me up in a lot of ways. I was incredibly socially maladapted as a kid and was constantly bullied for years because of it. And every time I moved I lost all of my friends because this was right before kids socialized online. My memory of that time is hazy now but I can see there were times where I had just kind of given up on building friendships. Most of my school years had me sitting alone reading books for my lunch or recess periods.
I couldn’t have said it better. And I’d add that they almost have to also make use of the Internet. I am one of the people who has globetrotted to such an extent, that if I didn’t keep up with my...
It used to be that the loner would still be working alongside people they've known their whole lives. The loner would still need to eat with a large family. The loner has a bunch of cousins next door, goes to Church with the same people week after week, and buys/sells things at the same general store their entire life. They'd still be invited to a whole whack of community stuff, to which they could show up for any length of time they want.
Today's loner grew up as a latched-key-kid in the 80s, whose parents have moved away from extended family for affordability/job mobility reasons, and whose school chums have all moved away for the same. The new loner's world began with more fragmentation, and has grown more isolating still at every turn.
I couldn’t have said it better.
I would posit that the modern person has to "put themselves out there" far more many times than ever before in order to make 1 sustaining connection.
And I’d add that they almost have to also make use of the Internet. I am one of the people who has globetrotted to such an extent, that if I didn’t keep up with my friends over WhatsApp, I’d have no friends to talk to, other than the two or three I see once a week.
My friend tells me they're in dire, desperate need for grown men volunteers to show young men a different way from the Manosphere.
This is so true. So often I go on Discord to a dating and relationship advice server and quickly find my DMs inundated with young gentlemen in their 20s who are desperate to find a mate or make friends, and are very broken, sad, and lonely. They latch onto my attention for dear life. It can be exhausting, but I can see just how much they lack male friendship, and also guidance so they don’t fall into the manosphere, as you said.
they do make me very worried. They're lost and understandably feel rejected / excluded by the social discourse, into the welcoming arms of the horrific Manosphere. I'm a woman so I can't really...
they do make me very worried. They're lost and understandably feel rejected / excluded by the social discourse, into the welcoming arms of the horrific Manosphere. I'm a woman so I can't really offer much hopes there, I'm afraid. Very very many years ago I attempted some good will out reach to particular subreddits full of hurt angry people, but I'm exact the sort they don't want to hear from, and as the saying goes, hurt people hurt people.
I’m not sure. At the risk of sounding sexist, so many men unfortunately misinterpret a woman’s friendliness for romantic interest. If I was a woman, I would feel uneasy attempting to do what I’ve...
How can women allies help men help other men?
I’m not sure. At the risk of sounding sexist, so many men unfortunately misinterpret a woman’s friendliness for romantic interest. If I was a woman, I would feel uneasy attempting to do what I’ve done since 2016. At the end of the day, these men only want emotional support from me, nothing else. Incidentally, there is this young gentleman who I met many years ago and helped through two dramatic and traumatic breakups. He would often demand a lot of attention from me. He then got himself a female therapist, who he became attracted to (she was older than him and married as well). I tried hard to steer his thoughts away from that and to convince him not to confess his feelings (he brought up the idea), but in vain. Thankfully, after he confessed, he realized that he had done a mistake and stopped consulting with her. Imagine how she must have felt. Though, maybe it wasn’t her first rodeo. Maybe it comes with the territory.
It definitely would not have come as an upsetting surprised for her, I'm sure. Therapists learn specifically about emotional transference and how to work through and redirect those feelings onto...
It definitely would not have come as an upsetting surprised for her, I'm sure. Therapists learn specifically about emotional transference and how to work through and redirect those feelings onto other, more appropriate people or onto future attempts to befriend / date other people. That's a shame he felt bad, I'm sure the therapist would have talked through it with him if he continued
The therapist would probably have referred him to someone else, not because she doesn't think he could be helped but because she's almost certainly not the correct person to help him. Plus a bit...
The therapist would probably have referred him to someone else, not because she doesn't think he could be helped but because she's almost certainly not the correct person to help him. Plus a bit for safety.
(Therapists are people too, so while we did get that training and have guidance and such it can absolutely still personally impact you when that happens. )
Thanks for the insight :D Is there anything else you would be willing to share about working with younger men, or men who seem to dislike or distrust women?
Thanks for the insight :D
Is there anything else you would be willing to share about working with younger men, or men who seem to dislike or distrust women?
I don't do clinical work anymore so I can't really speak to it from doing therapy other than from my education and internships, but since I work with college students, most of what helps me is...
I don't do clinical work anymore so I can't really speak to it from doing therapy other than from my education and internships, but since I work with college students, most of what helps me is being completely unshocked by whatever they say and validating the feelings they're expressing. This is really just my style in general, I don't do a lot different with different folks, it's all about hearing them share where they're at, helping them figure out what isn't working, what change they want and then I work with them to connect to resources rather than working on all that change with them in therapy. Some of my male clients would just sort of mentally re-categorize me as "therapist/case manager" rather than "woman" most of the time. My college students usually put me in "adult" (and i'm visibly queer which helps that too.)
THis hasn't always worked, I had a student worker that a express a lot of really misogynistic "men's rights" rhetoric (in that it was more misogynistic than it was addressing actual men's rights). And while I threw him by apologizing for not including a bit more data on a topic impacting college men during a presentation (and made an edit) that wasn't enough to break down that wall and let other things through. He ultimately got fired, not for his rhetoric but because of other choices. But he'd alienated his entire team and I've never seen anyone's firing less mourned by their peers.
For therapy, it's important to work with someone you're comfortable with and who has knowledge/expertise in the things you want to work on. Someone who's automatically really distrustful of women is probably better off working with a male therapist if the option is available. That "if available" is tricky. A good therapist can navigate it to an extent, but it depends on the specifics and it's not always possible.
It does come with the territory. It can vary whether you have just the clinical separation or the weird internal thoughts (blaming self for example) alongside the clinical angle.
It does come with the territory. It can vary whether you have just the clinical separation or the weird internal thoughts (blaming self for example) alongside the clinical angle.
One of the things that I am finding frustrating is how much of this is because of the socioeconomic demands of labor. Latchkey kids are because we can’t have families with parents who have enough...
One of the things that I am finding frustrating is how much of this is because of the socioeconomic demands of labor. Latchkey kids are because we can’t have families with parents who have enough time to parent - we are all too busy working. Most places in the US do not realistically allow you to function without a car, which costs the average person $12,000 a year. Both parents work? Double that figure. And through all of this employers continue to find ways to screw over workers. It’s commonplace to find ways to make workers do unpaid labor, and the past decade has seen an explosion of “independent contractors” who are exempt from various labor laws. Rideshare and delivery companies also take advantage of their couriers by having them use their personally owned vehicles for their work when they should be shouldering those costs themselves.
I agree, it's one thing for women to choose to work alongside the men, but it's quite another to be economically forced to have dual income households, leaving the kids to fend for themselves and...
I agree, it's one thing for women to choose to work alongside the men, but it's quite another to be economically forced to have dual income households, leaving the kids to fend for themselves and raised by TV advertising.
Please forgive me for doing this - I haven't watched the video as I'm trying to reduce my youtube usage. The topic and surrounding conversations have piqued my interest however, so I'll be...
Please forgive me for doing this - I haven't watched the video as I'm trying to reduce my youtube usage. The topic and surrounding conversations have piqued my interest however, so I'll be targeting that instead.
Meta-Comments about the discourse.
The "tone" of the OP's advice
I think there's value in offering advice in different manners. Some people (myself included) respond well to a more "frank" approach with advice, while others respond better to a "non-confrontational", high-reassurance style. To be fair, I don't think OP's comment was intended to be confrontational, but can certainly see how it could be interpreted that way. Intent from text is hard, and even when you're using styling to get a certain point or concept across, it's easy to interpret a reverse intention. Difference in cultural norms play a huge part in how interactions are perceived! Overall, it's impossible to exhaust every avenue of viewpoint for a response to a topic. You have to stop writing at some point, which means there are angles left unaddressed. I don't think you (OP) are "wrong", or unempathetic, for having drawn a type of actionable conclusion from having watched the video. Flip side of that is that I also don't think the others are wrong for saying, essentially, "This advice" or "The advice in this style doesn't work for me". That's fair too!
If you're willing to take some advice about writing and interacting with "the public" (from a nobody!) I would say this:
Stuff like this feels more personal than it was intended (probably). I don't post much, but when I do I try to make a habit of disambiguating what the goal of the interaction is. For myself, and the person that I'm talking to.
As the initiator of a topic, it's hard (but necessary, imo) to be able to roll with the punches that come and to not take it personally for the top level responses. There's shades of grey to this, like all things, but the conversation that can follow a misunderstanding at the top level has so much potential for disambiguating assumptions and getting to the crux of an argument. Something that both participants might not have thought about at all at the beginning. I'm of the opinion that the conversation initiator is responsible for keeping a level head until it's been determined the other is not acting in good faith.
It's tiring to do things that way, which is why I also don't post much, but it has lead to interesting convo's in my experience.
Unrelated to the meta comment I have above, I had a whole other part of this post that I wanted to type out related to the takeaway that you had:
He didn’t present a solution to the problem, so I’ll just finish with this thought: If you feel lonely, then I’m sorry to say, but you’re the only one who can do something about it. Crying about how social media rots our brains (which I agree with), how capitalism turned us all into hyper-individualistic slaves of the corporatocracy (which I agree with), and how the lack of third places makes it hard to hang out (American problem, live in Europe, can’t relate), isn’t going to help you. What is going to help you, is to go out there, face the awkwardness, face the rejections, make the effort that will mostly return empty at first, and invest in relationships with people, until you find a handful of them who are on that same journey. It can be a tiresome endeavor, but it isn’t a complicated one (you learn as you go), and once you do make friends, it can be a highly rewarding achievement for all parties involved.
I've had a long night, and am exhausted so I'll leave a short thought and then we can all argue about it when I come back from my nap :)
This goes hand in hand with the idea that luck plays a huge roll in the events of a persons life, and that people that are lucky are the ones who are out in the world putting themselves in more positions to be lucky. I can't believe I'm going to pull a quote from a freaking Soccer Manga, but here we are.
"Luck doesn't exist just anywhere. It only comes to those who place themselves in its path."
This is an underlying idea in what OP said above. The more effort you put into going out and trying to meet people, the more chances you will have to get lucky and find someone. Most, if not all, things in life come down to luck so you should try to always position yourself to take advantage of the luck when it strikes.
Dang. This was beautiful. Thank you. I tried to search for “Soccer Manga”, but only found generic lists of soccer mangas. Is it a specific one? I love the quote.
Dang. This was beautiful. Thank you.
Luck doesn't exist just anywhere. It only comes to those who place themselves in its path.
I tried to search for “Soccer Manga”, but only found generic lists of soccer mangas. Is it a specific one? I love the quote.
Not the Tildes member you're responding to but here's another sports manga quotes you didn ask for lol From Chihayafuru, a manga set in the competitive karuta card game world, but really is about...
Not the Tildes member you're responding to but here's another sports manga quotes you didn ask for lol
“Have you started a fire as a game? Although it is called talent, I think of it, as simply your speed of starting a fire until you have it burning. Those with ‘talent’ make a fire catch real quick. But that alone, doesn’t guarantee how strong your flame will be nor how long it can keep burning”
From Chihayafuru, a manga set in the competitive karuta card game world, but really is about the struggle to loving something for which you have neither Talent, Luck nor Family Heritage for.
Dang! This looks amazing! I gotta check it out! Thank you for sharing! The art style brought me back to the 2000s. checks MAL Oh, it started in 2007! (And went all the way to 2022! Dang!)
Chihayafuru
Dang! This looks amazing! I gotta check it out! Thank you for sharing! The art style brought me back to the 2000s.
checks MAL
Oh, it started in 2007! (And went all the way to 2022! Dang!)
This was an ironic link to see: I was at home stress-eating because I didn't want to go to a social outing. And I didn't want to go because, although I knew everyone, there was only one person I...
This was an ironic link to see: I was at home stress-eating because I didn't want to go to a social outing. And I didn't want to go because, although I knew everyone, there was only one person I felt I could talk freely with and had interest in catching up with. Everyone else, however nice, I just didn't want to talk to right now today. I didn't want to go through the song and dance of "hi how are you hows your partner hows work hows life wow you look great" for an hour. To his point, I felt like I was walking into a situation where I didn't really belong.
I also agree with the dude's "would you ever bother if a third place were there?" because I've spent a lot of time realizing no, I'm full up usually. Sometimes you like to meet to talk, sometimes you need an activity; I generally need an activity for my third place because it's a lot of pressure to have to put on my affable face. My third place– and maybe this is selfish– needs to be something where I'm there for myself first, and for others second.
The "high-maintenance" friendship has high resonance with me. I'm not extroverted, and admittedly stingy with time and energy. I'm the type that wants to be there for a lot of people– some, more than others– in the bad times. The good times, you'll probably not see me so much, I'd rather be spending time alone. The bad times– your bad times– I want to try and be there for you, because I dislike the idea that you might be feeling alone and hopeless when you don't need to be. I'd love to be part of a community where it was normal for people to want to give to each other in some way without having to make sure you were "hanging out enough" and "talking enough" in between. If I like someone, I like them. As long as I know you don't have beef with me, I'll like you just as much 3, 6, 12 months from now. I have a lot of room for the small talk as I live my life (grabbing my coffee, jogging, the gym, whatever) and for favors of explicit scope. I have minimal room for high-intention relationships– I'd say max 2, 3 if the relationships are efficient (e.g. a live in partner, a nearby best friend). I've been reflecting a lot recently on how it can be hard to have multiple female friendships for this reason too (much higher expectations than with men).
I also generally agree with his statement that loneliness is a sort of intrinsic condition. Recently, I was quite upset. It was the sort of upset that was in the body. The brain– my brain– could only scramble to try and decipher meaning. Why was I slouchy, terse, short, teary? I had to clarify: I'm not consciously upset, but I'm feeling upset, and it's just how I'm feeling. It wasn't for lack of friends or health or anything, or even a mourning of an outcome. I probably could have hopped on a plane somewhere, prompted a few people for drinks, something. But nothing would have helped. It didn't need a label or cause; it's just a feeling, like taking an emotional dump. The best I could come up with was that it was some kind of perennial loneliness. I wondered how cavemen were able to decipher mutual emotion; what in the world did it take for sad cavemen to realize they were feeling the same kind of sad? Did they define sad and then define lonely? Or was one lonely and the other was something else and they agreed to call it some collective feeling of 'sad'?
The author of that video is Cole Hastings. This blurb is from his own website in his "about" section. No disrespect to him or the OP, but I don't see any educational or professional credentials.
The author of that video is Cole Hastings.
This blurb is from his own website in his "about" section.
I’m a YouTuber, entrepreneur, and author who has been studying the realms of self improvement and psychology for over 7 years.
No disrespect to him or the OP, but I don't see any educational or professional credentials.
I wasn’t sure whether to file this one under ~health or ~health.mental, but since this is a society-level, Zeitgeist-y issue that became a recurrent, public topic of discussion, I think that it will fit here the best. Please move the thread if I’m wrong.
So the TLDR of the video is:
First, the creator lists the three most commonly listed causes for the loneliness epidemic, which he compares to items on a BINGO card. These are “technology”, “capitalism”, and “urban sprawl/lack of third places”. The last one is obviously more of an American issue.
He goes through each of those items and then dives into the nuances about why they do contribute to the loneliness epidemic, but how simply “getting rid of them” isn’t going to fix the problem.
The most interesting of the three for me was capitalism. The research shows that the generalized economic model that a nation operates under doesn’t matter all that much, and that very many of the countries that report being the least lonely, happen to lean towards capitalism. He argued (and I agree) that while we should move away from the corporatocracy, we shouldn’t seek to completely implode the system and revert our standard of living back to how things were before the 1800s (my words).
He then brought up three issues that he says are rarely discussed:
One point that he made that caught my attention is that loneliness has been high even several generations back, so while it is on the rise, it isn’t a uniquely gen Z phenomenon, as people often argue.
He didn’t present a solution to the problem, so I’ll just finish with this thought: If you feel lonely, then I’m sorry to say, but you’re the only one who can do something about it. Crying about how social media rots our brains (which I agree with), how capitalism turned us all into hyper-individualistic slaves of the corporatocracy (which I agree with), and how the lack of third places makes it hard to hang out (American problem, live in Europe, can’t relate), isn’t going to help you. What is going to help you, is to go out there, face the awkwardness, face the rejections, make the effort that will mostly return empty at first, and invest in relationships with people, until you find a handful of them who are on that same journey. It can be a tiresome endeavor, but it isn’t a complicated one (you learn as you go), and once you do make friends, it can be a highly rewarding achievement for all parties involved.
Edit:
Wow. I am beyond astonished at how catastrophically misinterpreted my piece of advice was:
Edit:
I think I figured out why people misunderstood me. I made the mistake of copy-pasting the actual title of the video, rather than writing a better, more descriptive one. The title of the video is obviously clickbait, but the creator of the video wasn’t trying to prove that the “loneliness epidemic” is a myth itself. His point was that what is a myth, is that those three items are the sole culprits. I have a feeling that some people read the title, skipped or skimmed my TLDR, and decided that I was unempathetic for calling the “loneliness epidemic” a myth, which I didn’t.
This feels like a pretty unempathetic take on the subject at hand. Yes, you need to make efforts to make friends. It's also ok to be frustrated about the state and commoditization of community our society. I'm not sure why this evokes such a strong emotion in you, but I'd encourage you to consider the folks on here who might feel differently - and who maybe aren't expecting to run headlong into a virtual admonishing.
I see where you're coming from in that parts of OPs post are strongly worded. But I don't know if it's strongly worded enough to make too many assumptions about their emotional state.
It could also be read as a friendly, if direct, reminder. Is there really enough information to say?
Looking at the bolded bit:
I would say that's just objectively true. In the context of many of the larger conversations around isolation, you might say that the various external causes are well covered and the personal responsibility reminder is therefore valuable.
In my view, we should examine the ways society is failing people. Both so that we can find ways to do it better going forward, and so that we can have more empathy and understand that what seems straightforward to one person can be incredibly challenging to someone in different circumstances.
And at the same time we're not children, if we wait for external solutions to our problems, we risk waiting forever.
If he could have “heard” me say it, like the way that I heard in my head as I wrote it out, then he would have heard me giving that piece of advice with a tender, empathetic voice.
I mean, it’s text, so it can be interpreted either way, but he could at least have asked and given me the benefit of the doubt.
Off-topic, but this is the second time I've seen people react strongly negatively to something you've written (though I get where people were coming from with some of your other comments). And I almost wonder if some are a bit "charged-up" seeing your username and making assumptions going forward. Idk, that rubs me the wrong way; feels very reddit-y.
I hope you also noticed the positive interactions that I’ve had on here, which are the vast majority and not at all Reddit-y.
100%. I'm just surprised that some are going into comments without giving the benefit of the doubt. FWIW, I read your comment and didn't think it was judging or anything. Thought it was interesting and well-written. So it was surprising that others interpreted it so strongly!
Wow. I mean. I apologize if what I wrote made you feel like I was admonishing you, but I wrote it with absolute neutrality of emotion. I found the video, watched it, liked it because it was interesting to me, wrote a TLDR, and added a piece of advice at the bottom, all without my heart rate going above 65 bpm.
Why was my take unempathetic? And what take are you specifically referring to? I actually take offense with that statement. I think of myself as a highly empathetic person. The reason why the video resonated with me and why I decided to share it is exactly because I empathize with people who struggle to make friends. I myself have always been one of those, as I have moved around a lot in life, and have been living abroad since 2011. Why would I be rude to people who can’t make friends when I know how much the loneliness hurts me too? What!?
Where did I say that it wasn’t? I said that “crying about it isn’t going to help you” to make friends. It OK to lament the state of things, but at the end of the day, the lamentation doesn’t bring you closer to any solution. What are you on about? Why are you putting words in my mouth?
It didn’t. I was completely chill when I wrote that.
Listen, I don’t know who you are and I have no beef with you, but I would advise you not to make assumptions about people’s emotional state based on a completely neutral piece of writing, that is mostly a TLDR about a video. Do you not see the irony that you’re failing at making friends here with that attitude?
Chill bro. I wasn’t attacking you, or anyone for that matter. Quite to the contrary. I was trying to help. Geez.
Congratulations. Now I actually am agitated.
Maybe to you. But that could be due to personal reasons. I read it as a matter of fact statement explaining that it won't just change without action.
This. Yes. Thank you!
I just emphasized it because it’s the main point, that’s it. Wow. So now even bold text can be misinterpreted?
OK. Then help me out here and rewrite that paragraph of mine in a way that you think would have come across better, but doesn’t change my main point.
Again, different person than who you were speaking to, but my two cents is that an easy way to diffuse a written message and make it feel a little “softer” is to use the third person instead of the second person, i.e. referring to “a lonely person” or “lonely people” or even just “they” instead of “you.” The second person can sound very accusatory, no matter how impartial one attempts to be.*
So, a rewrite that may work: If someone feels lonely, then I’m sorry to say, but they’re the only one who can do something about it.
*Ninja edit: I originally wrote “no matter how impartial you attempt to be,” and rewrote it because it sounded accusatory in my mind lol.
Thanks. Third person. That’s a good piece of advice. I’ll remember it.
Maybe it’s because I’m an author, but I assumed that bold and *italics are meant to emphasize, not to raise tone of voice. But we’re chatting here, so I can see your point. I didn’t think of that.
So what kind of advice would you give to a lonely person? I don’t understand that position. So many times in my life it was tough love (which I absolutely hated at the moment) that literally saved me from destroying myself. I’m not so insensitive that I throw around tough love when it isn’t called for (and in real life, I rarely ever use it), but I don’t think of what I said as “tough love” nor did I say it with such intent or tone of voice.
Hey, I think we're crossing wires here. My intent wasn't to stir the pot, though it seems that what I may have done.
We have a really nice community here at Tildes, and one that is normally quite open - and often vulnerable - about what is happening in their lives. There have been a number of treads about loneliness, a lack of friends, losing friends as folks age, a lack of community, and many more like them. While stating that you need to take personal responsibility for your own loneliness is true - it isn't always helpful. The same way calling someone fat or poor might be true, it doesn't change their situation. So while I agree with the majority of your points, I felt your finishing thought was a bit harsh. But this may also be a cultural difference, as when I lived in the Netherlands everything was fair game. I'm not intentionally trying to rile you up, nor am I offended or hurt by anything you said; I'm trying to add my perspective that for folks who are currently experiencing loneliness this might drive more self blame than action. That and I should have left the last sentence out, it was unnecessary.
Also, I misread why you chose to bold the section you did which was colored completely from my own experience and community. I'm on our local municipal planning commission and unfortunately I now conflate bolded text with aggression, as a number of our senior citizens like to yell down zoom at us, and when that isn't available, they attempt to yell down email with bold or all caps.
Sorry for the agitation.
I find it curious that "capitalism" made the list to be debunked, though I've never seen it blamed for the loneliness epidemic quite so directly despite my literally being a communist, but the ways women having increased autonomy is blamed for the loneliness epidemic among men wasn't. I've encountered this sentiment even here on Tildes, so it seems strange not to include it. In my personal experience, the type of person who I've most often seen need the type of advice you endeavor to give about overcoming loneliness oneself is far more likely to blame women and the current dating scene than capitalism.
I also think your proposed "solution" is unempathetic, as another commenter mentioned. Even though I agree with much of it in principle, presenting it as something that's dead simple and foolproof for anyone regardless of their situation is an oversimplification that glosses over a lot of real barriers that individuals often have (outside of the factors cited as the cause of the societal-level "loneliness epidemic."
It also isn't necessarily a solution. People who are seeking a social circle or increased social ties will find the same advice everywhere, and whether or not it works is down to luck.
What didn't work for me over a period of 10+ years in the same town:
What did work:
On the flip side, one of the problem with my (now ended) relationship was that I relied too much on my partner for my social interaction, and since there wasn't an extended connected friend group, the result was cutting myself off from my existing friends and my mental health suffering as a result. Tbqh, OP's advice of just getting out there has worked for me -- but often that's thanks to the particulars of my circumstances, and those vary so wildly between individuals.
I'm not saying that's not a risk, I'm saying that finding a social circle isn't as simple as "do this and friends happen" any more than becoming a famous musician is as simple as "make a band and put yourselves out there".
What I said is more: “Put yourself out there, and eventually you’ll find someone.”
I'd be curious to understand why it was the worst, but also grok why you might not want to expand on it.
The thing nobody says about the 'just find friends' solution is that other people must be doing the same.
I started attending a board game club. It's a fine "get out and meet people" thing, but it's going to take months to develop any sort of deep meaningful friendship which truely addresses loneliness.
It seemed to be a running theme that groups focused on identity were preoccupied with being marginalised, since the members otherwise had very little in common. And that often manifested as expressing serious hatred for the majority outgroup. The online ones being "safe spaces" also led to a lot of oppression olympics.
How do you find a romantic partner if you can't find friends?
I'm on the opposite end. I have no issue finding new friends. I constantly make new friends as I get older. Through work and my interests.
But romantic partner? That's mysterious to me.
Dating sites/apps. I gather it's a lot harder than it was back when I met my partner, but there are still so many options.
Interestingly I've always found a correlation between finding new friends and new partners. I've had periods where both were low and others when they were both quite high. The only difference I can think of is if the activities I'm doing are more gendered than others. Like when I mountain bike it's largely men and their male friends that join us so I never really meet women. But when I play pick-up volleyball or climb we tend to have a 40-60 split men women so I end up meeting plenty of perspective partners. And then there are activities like pottery where I'm the only man amongst 20 women, which if I wasn't already hitched, would be an absolute goldmine.
Huh, this comment made me realize that in some ways it's oddly easier to find a romantic partner than friends.
With romance, it's normal to go on dates with effective strangers to test compatibility. Just look at how many people exchange numbers knowing nothing about each other because they found the other person attractive. The whole point of a first date is to test the waters and see if there's a spark.
There isn't really a platonic equivalent to dates though. Friendships tend to grow more organically over time, usually after finding common interests or other common ground... Which can be hard to gauge in a single meeting if said interests don't come up. Without knowing that there's often no incentive to exchange contact info, let alone meet again. And even then, it usually takes a few interactions to decide to arrange intentional meetings.
Both have the potential to grow organically over long time or have that instantaneous spark once you get really talking, but romance allows for more spontaneous connections to initiate that first, real contact. Even in activities with both potential partners and friends, it's easier to randomly ask out a stranger to test the waters on a date than identify which strangers can become good friends.
Yeah I've always been surprised that there aren't many dedicated solutions for meeting new friends as opposed to dating -- but then again, I don't know if the same approach would be healthy in searching for friends.
The one advantage friendship has as a counter is that you can often make friends through someone else -- if you make friends with one person and they invite you to some sort of group event or activity, maybe you hit it off with the rest of their friends and gain a larger friend group. While this isn't completely lacking in parallels for dating, the one-on-one nature of it for most people does change the situation there a lot.
That’s funny, but might actually work. Great idea. I’m going to suggest pottery classes to the next gentleman who asks me for advice on how to meet prospective female dating candidates.
I am very sorry that all the effort that you put in throughout those ten years yielded no success in making friends. I am glad to hear though, that finding a romantic partner has also helped you to assimilate into a welcoming social circle. I’m really happy for you.
That being said, I can’t think of the advice that I gave at the end as anything but the solution. How else are you going to solve this problem other by doing something about it? If you sit still, then it won’t go away. In your specific case, not putting yourself out there, would have meant that you wouldn’t have met your significant other, so you did something about it, and repeated the benefit. That was my point.
I met my partner because I gave up on trying to make friends and instead specifically sought a romantic relationship through dating sites.
My point is that it's not a problem that can be solved through sheer force of will simply by taking action. You need factors in place that are outside of your control, otherwise you can spend a lifetime getting precisely nowhere.
I can’t imagine what those factors could be. The only time where I was completely unable to intentionally go out and seek friendships, was when I got into a relationship with a woman who, through emotional blackmail and gaslighting, succeeded in isolating me from everyone I knew. But even then, I eventually did something about it: I broke up with her.
Can you give me an example of factors that are completely out of someone’s control?
I also don’t think that this has anything to do with willpower. I think that it has to do with taking initiative. I see those as unrelated things.
I'm not talking about being able to seek friendships, I'm talking about being able to find them.
In short, a friendship requires two people, and you can only control your own end. On the other end you need someone who 1) is open to making a new friendship, 2a) has the time/energy to devote to one 2b) at the same time(s) you do, and 3) vibes with you personally.
I see. Still, I think that the majority of those who live in cities are surrounded by enough people that there should be a significant number of individuals who check all of those squares. I think that, especially in our time, where we’re all part of some niche community or another, because of the large variety of interests that one may have these days, it should be relatively easy to find at least a handful of people to befriend within that community. So, while I do know what being lonely feels like, but I just can’t relate to not being able to do anything about it, because I always did.
See that's exactly what I meant by "do this and friends happen". Just because you personally had no trouble doesn't mean anyone can just "do something about it", because it fundamentally is not within their control.
To be fair, OP didn't present finding friends as something that's dead simple and foolproof for anyone.
The creator just stated that while the way capitalism is put into practice (as a corporatocracy) in the States, does contribute to the loneliness epidemic, but isn’t its root cause. I thought my TLDR had made that clear.
Why wouldn’t it? I never heard that one before. How is that related to loneliness?
Are you talking about my suggestion for people to go out and do something about their loneliness? I don’t see how my advice—which is to take matters into your own hands and not let circumstances out of your control dictate your lifeis a bad thing, let alone how it is even related to some absurd idea about women being to blame for the loneliness epidemic (which again, is the first time I have ever heard). And what do you mean by “people like me”?
And how was that not obvious from the advice that I gave? Of course I agree with you. Should I have added that as a disclaimer at the end to sound more empathetic? “My advice, of course, only applies to your case if you happen to have no real barriers that a lot of people have.” I mean, I don’t know. I thought that was obvious. I did say until you can.
I'm glad you haven't heard that one before, but unfortunately it's too common in my experience as well. It's often a bit coded rather than explicitly blaming women, until you get into the really gross incel territory where the masks come off ("women should be forced to have sex with incels instead of using sex toys", "we should have legally enforced monogamy"), but it's adjacent to the "I'm a nice guy and women don't want me" framing of things. These are people who say women have too high of standards now (because they have options), so it's clearly their fault.
I don't think this was related to your suggestion particularly. I've also seen this sentiment here on Tildes and across the internet, especially in the rise of incels, conservative Christian nationalist ideology and in the "manosphere." I understand if you haven't seen it, but a Google search brings up dozens of "stop blaming women for men's loneliness epidemic."
For the record, that portion of my comment had absolutely nothing to do with your advice -- as I've mentioned in other replies here, the advice you give largely reflects what has actually worked well for me personally! I was not talking about "people like you" nor was I trying to draw any association between you and the guys who discuss the issue this way -- I was just curious why this facet of the conversation re: the loneliness epidemic wasn't discussed/debunked in the video.
I was talking about other content that I've encountered online in which women's increased autonomy (and thus ability to say no to relationship opportunities that don't meet their standards) is blamed for the "male loneliness epidemic." That's the search term that will get you results of the type I'm describing, in which the loneliness epidemic is framed as something unique to men and often as something women are subjecting men to by not dating them. It's something that tends to surface in a similar context to how "friendzoning" once did, in my experience. It's come up often enough in this context online that I get nervous whenever I see the term "loneliness epidemic" because I don't know until I read further whether they're referring to the actual society-wide problem that affects people of all genders or whether they're talking manosphere bullshit.
I recall encountering this sentiment occasionally in the past here on Tildes, but after doing some quick searching I wasn't able to find anything that quite fit, so I'm either misremembering or the relevant topics and comments were deleted (probably for the best). It's pretty easy to find examples of what I mean on sites like reddit, though (perhaps unsurprisingly). Here is a thread from r/NoStupidQuestions in which OP's questions/assumptions reveal the way this is typically talked about (and the top comments are mostly reasonable takes) and a post on r/Feminism in which people vent about how frustrated with the "male loneliness epidemic" take. Here's a reddit post that focuses on debunking when Scott Galloway (whose content has absolutely been posted on Tildes before) discussed the "male loneliness epidemic" on Diary of a CEO, as an example that discussion of the "male loneliness epidemic" in this context isn't just something you find on reddit.
I was wondering why, given that he was taking the time to address what I'd consider to be fairly nuanced differences between different proposed causes for the loneliness epidemic, he didn't address this one that's rather easy to debunk. Maybe he didn't want to give it airtime to make it seem legitimate to the same degree as the other potential causes he discusses here, which are all a lot more grounded in reality. idk, but it's just something that I was curious about.
I actually think technology can help with loneliness. Now I'm not one of those people who thinks tech can solve everything. But I don't agree with the wide brush that technology is making us more lonely, either.
For me, technology and the Internet has kept me from loneliness. I'm an introverted single guy with no kids. My primary group of friends—about 10 of us— is online. I say online, but that's just the primary medium we use; I've met my friends in real life many times over over the last 10yrs or so. I've since worked with some of them and currently work with others.
We're on Teamspeak/Discord almost every night, bullshitting, gaming, watching movies and shows, discussing news and politics; generally entertaining each other. But also, we've had many real talks about personal issues with health, work, family, relationships, money, etc. These are real friendships. We have helped each other get jobs. We've helped each other move (for those who live in the same areas). We've vacationed together. We've stayed in each other's houses if visiting. We've met each other's families. These are real relationships, because of the Internet, because of technology.
That said, I also understand that not everyone is OK with this type of primarily Internet-mediated relationship. I'm not Gen Z; I'm a Millennial. I still get some weird looks from fellow cohorts when I tell them that my friends are online. That we can't just go out for beers on a whim, because we're spread across the country or even the world. For some people, that's not enough. They want a physical relationship, be it platonic or romantic, where they can reach out and touch someone and be in the same physical space with another, regularly. And tbf, I'm not sure I could do a romantic relationship that started online, in like a game or place like this. Even an LDR seems like something that would be very difficult for me.
For others, they're just so busy, any medium doesn't really work. I have a friend, a former coworker, who's married and has 3 kids, elementary-age down to 1yo. They moved out to another city about 3yrs ago for her husband's job, where they know no one. Her husband's family is across the country, while her's are literally overseas. She's WFH and trying to maintain and advance her career. She feels trapped in her house, with her family, in a city she doesn't really like. On the rare chance she has some extra time, she tries to go out and meet people, mainly via playdates for her kids...and it's just not working for her. She thinks the people there are weird, lol. But again, technology to the rescue. She talks with me and our other friend, another coworker of ours (former coworker for me), via WhatsApp messaging and video calls, and sending memes via Instagram. But I know that's not enough for her. She misses our happy hours and hanging out with her other friends back home.
I suppose there really isn't any one solution. At the end of the day, "Get out there, put some effort in, and meet people!" is just a platitude. You can do all that and come out with friends—I spent like 2-3yrs with my online group, barely speaking because I'm shy, but I did keep showing up week after week, then night after night, until I felt comfortable with them—or come out with nothing. Moving from group to group, never really finding a home, a partner, a connection. I've been there, too.
That was part of the nuance that the creator of the video touched on, that technology isn’t the root cause of the loneliness epidemic, and that in many cases, it actually helps people to feel less lonely. It isn’t a perfect solution, but it also isn’t always the problem.
That can happen and I’m sorry if that’s been your experience. I do want to know what you think the solution is, if any. If you were, let’s say, a therapist, would you tell someone in that situation to do something about their circumstances? And if yes, what?
For what it's worth, I believe you're correct. I felt aggravated reading the title and was expecting to find content that denies the existence of anything that could be called a loneliness epidemic. I also half expected that this post wouldn't have a decent summary of the video. (Both of these expectations are unrelated to your username - I don't pay attention to those - just my basic online pessimism I guess.) I decided that if that's the case, I would not waste my time by going to see the video.
Then I started reading and felt happy to see that you wrote a more than adequate summary. When I reached the following line, I started to also feel at ease regarding the video itself:
After that, I didn't interpret anything in this post as being negative or dismissive in tone. With perhaps one small exception: the use of the word "crying". It seems a tad blamey in tone against those who express their unwanted situation. That one word did not change the overall interpretation that this post was made in good faith.
Noted. I’ll refrain from using expressions like “crying about” the next time. Someone else pointed that out as well.
Next time I’ll also be more careful with the title. It’s sad, because not too long ago, I shared a different video where the title was so bad that I decided to change it (and it clearly helped). For some odd reason, it didn’t occur to me to change this one, which happens to be very obviously clickbait-y.
...Or, you know, just accept that sometimes people misinterpret things, you can't always pre-empt every misunderstanding, and on a forum like this that is founded on the principle of trust, misunderstandings are easily sorted out. It's all good.
Why do you say that?
As an American, I can second that the lack of third places feels like more of an American problem. When we went to Costa Rica a few years ago, the part that stuck with me the most was the sense of community everywhere. The one that sticks in my mind most was at this little grocery/convenience store in a shopping center by a beach, there was a TV screen with a slideshow of locals at various events.
I don't really see anything like that in America. And there aren't many places to just hang out besides our own houses unless you happen to live in a major city like NYC or maybe beach towns. As someone living in the suburban midwest, pretty much all the places I can go have some activity attached by default, whether it be an actual activity like a movie (which prevents talking), or getting drinks or food (which can be tricky when you have a big group, and also comes with a soft time limit). All the options also cost money, so that's another limitation.
One other issue with all those: it's hard to meet and make new friends. Not everyone can strike up a friendship on their first meeting, and most of those activities are one-time things rather than regular routines, so the odds of running into the same people repeatedly are low. Just... Really frustrating, and makes me glad I already have some lifelong friends from high school and college. I feel bad for one of my friends who moved cross-country, they're struggling with loneliness hard.
So which of these things are different in Europe?
I’ve never felt that third places are dying out in Europe, and I’ve lived in Portugal, Germany, France, Switzerland, Ukraine, Latvia, and Finland. Every town or city I’ve been in, I’ve always found third places (usually in walking distance, or very accessible via public transportation) for people to hang out at. No cars required. That’s what the creator touches on, urban sprawl and the necessity of cars in (specifically) the USA.
But what third places do you see in Europe that don't exist in America? Sure, you may not need a car to get to them...if you live in a large city...but I don't see what exists in Europe but not America. And to be clear, much of Europe (including Western Europe) has really shitty public transit and you do need a car to go most places in anything resembling a convenient amount of time.
Well, I can’t say much about the United States because I only lived there for 1.5 years and in a “bubble” of sorts. I don’t know the reality of what the States are in general. The only things that I know is that every time I hung out with someone, I needed to drive, long distances. I also hear Americans often complain about the loss of “third places” (malls, cafés, libraries, etc.). Maybe some places in America aren’t as affected by this phenomenon.
Third places have definitely been lost, but they seem to me to have been lost to more or less the same degree in Europe, with the lower church attendance rates making things even worse.
Absolutely disagree that they've been lost at remotely the same rate. Culturally the ability to hang out for an extended time at a restaurant or something is wildly different here in Berlin than it is in the US, and it's a huge culture shock to me whenever I visit home. One of the first words I learned upon moving to Germany was "Stammtisch," and that type of regularly hanging out at a third place is vastly more common here than where I grew up in the states.
Czech beer culture does increase alcoholism I'm sure, but the advantage of it is that it's completely normal and even expected to regularly just sit around a table for 4+ hours and talk (and not drinking has become much more normalized and accepted in the last decade as well).
For people who aren’t religious, I was reminded that I really like bouldering venues for the purpose of meeting new people. Bouldering is a fun sport that attracts people from all walks of life. And since people stand around and sit down in between the climbing, there is always a lot of chit-chatting. It has a great community. And it’s something that one can do on a regular basis.
But church is great for meeting new people indeed. It usually is a weekly social gathering of people who, in most cases, even have some shared interests outside of religion (likely because they have a shared interest in the same religion to begin with, and therefore similar interests). The larger one’s church is, the greater the potential for them to expand their social circle through it. I met my wife through church, and so did almost everyone else who we know within our denomination. Almost every married couple in our generation has children now, and these children are growing up surrounded by a community of church goers. If they don’t leave the church, then they’ll always have a network of people that will enable them to make more friends and potentially get acquainted with a significant other later in life.
I actually do quite a bit of bouldering too. Maybe it's just the gyms or maybe I'm a little more closed off-looking because of the language barrier, but I haven't even seen people standing around watching others climb since I moved to Europe.
I was expecting to make climbing buddies by just going to the gyms and maybe giving a fist bump to the guys who are climbing near me or who I see regularly, but that's been literally impossible. Everyone just seems to talk to the people they're already with and to not even watch others here. I've been to four gyms and all of them have been disappointing socially compared to the only one I went to in the US.
It is interesting that they actually sell food and have tables at the gyms here, but I rarely see anyone taking advantage of that. Like I said, maybe I just got lucky in the US, or have been unlucky here so far.
I have a guess on why loneliness is a harder issue for today than before: family + societal structures have changed radically.
It used to be that the loner would still be working alongside people they've known their whole lives. The loner would still need to eat with a large family. The loner has a bunch of cousins next door, goes to Church with the same people week after week, and buys/sells things at the same general store their entire life. They'd still be invited to a whole whack of community stuff, to which they could show up for any length of time they want.
Today's loner grew up as a latched-key-kid in the 80s, whose parents have moved away from extended family for affordability/job mobility reasons, and whose school chums have all moved away for the same. The new loner's world began with more fragmentation, and has grown more isolating still at every turn.
Many people have a small "pool" of resources which allow them to draw from in order to make new friends. As each year passes, some of those connections are moving away or behaves radically differently or are unable to continue socializing. I would posit that the modern person has to "put themselves out there" far more many times than ever before in order to make 1 sustaining connection. And people's pools have different rates of replenishment. Some of us are simply too worn out and too hurt to try again and again and again right now, and at the point where hearing even well meant good advice can sound like "well then that's just your own fault".
There are things that don't rely on just the loner, though. This is where friends, neighbours, and strangers come in. This is where we come in.
The Red Cross has a "Dial a Feiend" program, in Canada "Friendly Calls" .
Big brothers/Big sisters is another one. My friend tells me they're in dire, desperate need for grown men volunteers to show young men a different way from the Manosphere.
Divorce / single parent support societies. The men's circles don't have a lot of men coming in, it's true, but they will more likely do the drop in / drive by for resources, and extra hands to give that extra smile and "how you doin today?" could be what motivates them to give the support circles a try.
Those of us who have the extra bandwidth can volunteer for similiar community efforts: we can make it easier for them to be hoisted up when they decide to reach out.
In my perception, in the context of the US at least the greatly increased frequency of moving in the past several decades is a massive yet under-acknowledged factor when it comes to loneliness. Increasingly people have had to leave their hometowns and in some cases move cross-country to find opportunities, which removes them from the communities they were raised in, and then have to move several more times after that to move up to the next rung in school, career, etc. Some number then move yet again after establishing themselves to get away from exorbitant cost of living in major cities, potentially in effort to create enough financial margin to start a family.
This results in a huge number of chronically-uprooted individuals who never stay any one place long enough to make lasting connections. They might have everything else going for them — education, a good paycheck, maybe even a decent amount of spare time thanks to a well paid specialist job — and yet still have trouble making friends.
You just nearly perfectly described most of my adult life. By all metrics I'm very successful, but maintaining friendships has been a constant uphill battle, and I really only have a handful of friends left in the wake of it all. I'm largely OK, in part because I have been able to connect a little bit in online spaces like Tildes and Discord to satisfy that "acquaintance" level of interaction. But there were definitely times where it was a struggle.
I'm not sure data backs this up. Due to the massive housing undersupply in the US (many cities simply don't build housing any-more), Americans are moving at the lowest rates in a century: https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/time-series/demo/historic.html
There's more support for the idea that the trend of people moving out of cities is making it harder for people to socialise.
I’m speaking mainly from personal experience, so it’s entirely possible that what I’ve seen is the exception and not the norm. That said, everybody from my high school graduating class (late 00s) ended up moving out and the overwhelming majority of people I’ve had extensive interactions with in cities are transplants from all over, most of whom had similar stories of needing to go where things were happening.
It would make a lot of sense if the trend of moving into cities sharply reversed following the pandemic, though. It’s what both myself and several of my colleagues did, primarily for the crazy cost savings. It’s true that it makes socialization more difficult… it takes a lot more initiative to go out and do things when doing so requires driving out, finding parking, etc.
This is so true. Not that things Were Better™, but centuries ago, most people grew up in a village, and lived there all their lives. They had no chance but to make friends with those who they knew. The lack of mobility wasn’t ideal, but being repeatedly uprooted throughout life, as you said, wasn’t an issue either. And I know what that’s like. I can’t count with my fingers in how many countries I’ve lived anymore. What could be done at a macro-societal level to balance this out? I don’t. However, knowing what I know today, I have taken matters into my own hands by choosing a place where to settle and do my part to build a social circle around myself. That’s the only thing that individuals can do, I think.
Absolutely, and the kind of community that North Americans aspire to are also harmful towards relationships as well: I'm talking about the suburban single family acer lot homes in an HOA. Folks drive in and drive out and you're nearly too far away from the fence line to wave to a neighbour. There's nothing to walk to within a mile radius sometimes.
I've also been to a couple TX and CA suburbs where there's no sidewalk, the air is 30°C+ outside in December, and the lawn is full of fire ants. And full disclosure I currently live in a rural area with acre lots, where it's freezing half the year and it's a 3km walk to the library.
I would really agree with that. I moved probably half a dozen times in my youth. And it really messed me up in a lot of ways. I was incredibly socially maladapted as a kid and was constantly bullied for years because of it. And every time I moved I lost all of my friends because this was right before kids socialized online. My memory of that time is hazy now but I can see there were times where I had just kind of given up on building friendships. Most of my school years had me sitting alone reading books for my lunch or recess periods.
I couldn’t have said it better.
And I’d add that they almost have to also make use of the Internet. I am one of the people who has globetrotted to such an extent, that if I didn’t keep up with my friends over WhatsApp, I’d have no friends to talk to, other than the two or three I see once a week.
This is so true. So often I go on Discord to a dating and relationship advice server and quickly find my DMs inundated with young gentlemen in their 20s who are desperate to find a mate or make friends, and are very broken, sad, and lonely. They latch onto my attention for dear life. It can be exhausting, but I can see just how much they lack male friendship, and also guidance so they don’t fall into the manosphere, as you said.
they do make me very worried. They're lost and understandably feel rejected / excluded by the social discourse, into the welcoming arms of the horrific Manosphere. I'm a woman so I can't really offer much hopes there, I'm afraid. Very very many years ago I attempted some good will out reach to particular subreddits full of hurt angry people, but I'm exact the sort they don't want to hear from, and as the saying goes, hurt people hurt people.
How can women allies help men help other men?
I’m not sure. At the risk of sounding sexist, so many men unfortunately misinterpret a woman’s friendliness for romantic interest. If I was a woman, I would feel uneasy attempting to do what I’ve done since 2016. At the end of the day, these men only want emotional support from me, nothing else. Incidentally, there is this young gentleman who I met many years ago and helped through two dramatic and traumatic breakups. He would often demand a lot of attention from me. He then got himself a female therapist, who he became attracted to (she was older than him and married as well). I tried hard to steer his thoughts away from that and to convince him not to confess his feelings (he brought up the idea), but in vain. Thankfully, after he confessed, he realized that he had done a mistake and stopped consulting with her. Imagine how she must have felt. Though, maybe it wasn’t her first rodeo. Maybe it comes with the territory.
It definitely would not have come as an upsetting surprised for her, I'm sure. Therapists learn specifically about emotional transference and how to work through and redirect those feelings onto other, more appropriate people or onto future attempts to befriend / date other people. That's a shame he felt bad, I'm sure the therapist would have talked through it with him if he continued
The therapist would probably have referred him to someone else, not because she doesn't think he could be helped but because she's almost certainly not the correct person to help him. Plus a bit for safety.
(Therapists are people too, so while we did get that training and have guidance and such it can absolutely still personally impact you when that happens. )
Thanks for the insight :D
Is there anything else you would be willing to share about working with younger men, or men who seem to dislike or distrust women?
I don't do clinical work anymore so I can't really speak to it from doing therapy other than from my education and internships, but since I work with college students, most of what helps me is being completely unshocked by whatever they say and validating the feelings they're expressing. This is really just my style in general, I don't do a lot different with different folks, it's all about hearing them share where they're at, helping them figure out what isn't working, what change they want and then I work with them to connect to resources rather than working on all that change with them in therapy. Some of my male clients would just sort of mentally re-categorize me as "therapist/case manager" rather than "woman" most of the time. My college students usually put me in "adult" (and i'm visibly queer which helps that too.)
THis hasn't always worked, I had a student worker that a express a lot of really misogynistic "men's rights" rhetoric (in that it was more misogynistic than it was addressing actual men's rights). And while I threw him by apologizing for not including a bit more data on a topic impacting college men during a presentation (and made an edit) that wasn't enough to break down that wall and let other things through. He ultimately got fired, not for his rhetoric but because of other choices. But he'd alienated his entire team and I've never seen anyone's firing less mourned by their peers.
For therapy, it's important to work with someone you're comfortable with and who has knowledge/expertise in the things you want to work on. Someone who's automatically really distrustful of women is probably better off working with a male therapist if the option is available. That "if available" is tricky. A good therapist can navigate it to an extent, but it depends on the specifics and it's not always possible.
It does come with the territory. It can vary whether you have just the clinical separation or the weird internal thoughts (blaming self for example) alongside the clinical angle.
One of the things that I am finding frustrating is how much of this is because of the socioeconomic demands of labor. Latchkey kids are because we can’t have families with parents who have enough time to parent - we are all too busy working. Most places in the US do not realistically allow you to function without a car, which costs the average person $12,000 a year. Both parents work? Double that figure. And through all of this employers continue to find ways to screw over workers. It’s commonplace to find ways to make workers do unpaid labor, and the past decade has seen an explosion of “independent contractors” who are exempt from various labor laws. Rideshare and delivery companies also take advantage of their couriers by having them use their personally owned vehicles for their work when they should be shouldering those costs themselves.
I agree, it's one thing for women to choose to work alongside the men, but it's quite another to be economically forced to have dual income households, leaving the kids to fend for themselves and raised by TV advertising.
Please forgive me for doing this - I haven't watched the video as I'm trying to reduce my youtube usage. The topic and surrounding conversations have piqued my interest however, so I'll be targeting that instead.
Meta-Comments about the discourse.
The "tone" of the OP's advice
I think there's value in offering advice in different manners. Some people (myself included) respond well to a more "frank" approach with advice, while others respond better to a "non-confrontational", high-reassurance style. To be fair, I don't think OP's comment was intended to be confrontational, but can certainly see how it could be interpreted that way. Intent from text is hard, and even when you're using styling to get a certain point or concept across, it's easy to interpret a reverse intention. Difference in cultural norms play a huge part in how interactions are perceived! Overall, it's impossible to exhaust every avenue of viewpoint for a response to a topic. You have to stop writing at some point, which means there are angles left unaddressed. I don't think you (OP) are "wrong", or unempathetic, for having drawn a type of actionable conclusion from having watched the video. Flip side of that is that I also don't think the others are wrong for saying, essentially, "This advice" or "The advice in this style doesn't work for me". That's fair too!
If you're willing to take some advice about writing and interacting with "the public" (from a nobody!) I would say this:
Stuff like this feels more personal than it was intended (probably). I don't post much, but when I do I try to make a habit of disambiguating what the goal of the interaction is. For myself, and the person that I'm talking to.
As the initiator of a topic, it's hard (but necessary, imo) to be able to roll with the punches that come and to not take it personally for the top level responses. There's shades of grey to this, like all things, but the conversation that can follow a misunderstanding at the top level has so much potential for disambiguating assumptions and getting to the crux of an argument. Something that both participants might not have thought about at all at the beginning. I'm of the opinion that the conversation initiator is responsible for keeping a level head until it's been determined the other is not acting in good faith.
It's tiring to do things that way, which is why I also don't post much, but it has lead to interesting convo's in my experience.
Unrelated to the meta comment I have above, I had a whole other part of this post that I wanted to type out related to the takeaway that you had:
I've had a long night, and am exhausted so I'll leave a short thought and then we can all argue about it when I come back from my nap :)
This goes hand in hand with the idea that luck plays a huge roll in the events of a persons life, and that people that are lucky are the ones who are out in the world putting themselves in more positions to be lucky. I can't believe I'm going to pull a quote from a freaking Soccer Manga, but here we are.
This is an underlying idea in what OP said above. The more effort you put into going out and trying to meet people, the more chances you will have to get lucky and find someone. Most, if not all, things in life come down to luck so you should try to always position yourself to take advantage of the luck when it strikes.
"You miss 100% of the
shots you don't
take. —Wayne Gretzky"
—Michael Scott
Dang. This was beautiful. Thank you.
I tried to search for “Soccer Manga”, but only found generic lists of soccer mangas. Is it a specific one? I love the quote.
Not the Tildes member you're responding to but here's another sports manga quotes you didn ask for lol
From Chihayafuru, a manga set in the competitive karuta card game world, but really is about the struggle to loving something for which you have neither Talent, Luck nor Family Heritage for.
Dang! This looks amazing! I gotta check it out! Thank you for sharing! The art style brought me back to the 2000s.
checks MAL
Oh, it started in 2007! (And went all the way to 2022! Dang!)
You're welcome! And thank you for a good topic for me to weigh in on. It doesn't happen often :)
The manga is Blue Lock
This was an ironic link to see: I was at home stress-eating because I didn't want to go to a social outing. And I didn't want to go because, although I knew everyone, there was only one person I felt I could talk freely with and had interest in catching up with. Everyone else, however nice, I just didn't want to talk to right now today. I didn't want to go through the song and dance of "hi how are you hows your partner hows work hows life wow you look great" for an hour. To his point, I felt like I was walking into a situation where I didn't really belong.
The author of that video is Cole Hastings.
This blurb is from his own website in his "about" section.
No disrespect to him or the OP, but I don't see any educational or professional credentials.