I feel you. I’ve been there. And then I got a divorce, lost all my ‘friends’, found other people and turns out I didn’t suffer from anxiety. I was just spending time around the wrong people. I’m...
I feel you. I’ve been there. And then I got a divorce, lost all my ‘friends’, found other people and turns out I didn’t suffer from anxiety. I was just spending time around the wrong people.
I’m still not the most social crayon in the box, but it amazes me how long I can be fulfilled from an afternoon with a real friend.
Hm. Interesting question. In hindsight, I think my ‘friends’ just… didn’t really like me? And yet I stuck with them because I was afraid of being alone. After my divorce I was truly alone and it...
Hm. Interesting question.
In hindsight, I think my ‘friends’ just… didn’t really like me? And yet I stuck with them because I was afraid of being alone.
After my divorce I was truly alone and it actually wasn’t that bad. It’s a cliche, I know, but being alone felt better, less lonely, than being surrounded by the people who didn’t really like me.
Now that I’ve grown out of my fear of being alone, I feel like I have more healthy friendships. I’m not afraid any more of losing people just by being who I am. And so I discovered the joy of knowing some people who I just know, and really feel like they actually like spending time with me. With the weird me. Not the ‘social function’ me. It’s a joy so pure I don’t need much of it to feel satisfied.
It took a long time for me to learn that there exists negative socialization, social interaction that worsens your need for social interaction rather than satiating it. It's counter-intuitive...
Exemplary
It took a long time for me to learn that there exists negative socialization, social interaction that worsens your need for social interaction rather than satiating it.
It's counter-intuitive because you're thirsty, so you're drinking water, but then you're even thirstier after, even though you did exactly the thing you're supposed to do when you're thirsty. And then you start getting really confused, because the water is your friend, and you like spending time with them, and they seemingly like spending time with you.
When the truth is, you're only spending time with them because the alternative, at least in the immediate term, is no socialization. The difficult truth to learn is that negative socialization is worse than no socialization.
Granted, you're just going to have bad social interactions sometimes, even with your best of friends. But when social interactions are consistently negative with someone(s), that's usually a sign you should distance yourself from them. Even if it means giving up a social outlet, because rarely are you going to find a better outlet when you're so drained from dealing with your negative one.
There's a lot of weirdos out there. All my friends are weirdos. I'm a weirdo. It was the most liberating feeling ever learning to openly be my weirdo self.
There's a lot of weirdos out there. All my friends are weirdos. I'm a weirdo. It was the most liberating feeling ever learning to openly be my weirdo self.
I’m going through this right now I’m in the process of letting go of friends Ive had for a long time cause for the last few years now I get the feeling that they don’t really like me. Spending...
I’m going through this right now
I’m in the process of letting go of friends Ive had for a long time cause for the last few years now I get the feeling that they don’t really like me. Spending time with them feels like a chore where they quickly update me on all the basics about their lives and then we go home.
I’m sad and lonely but Ive actually felt this way for years and Ive been trying to make new friends but it’s difficult to make the leap from “people I see every week and share a hobby with” to real actual friends who I can talk to about real actual thoughts.
It is so difficult. The transition took me over five years. However difficult it sometimes was, I also found the best friend in myself, if that makes sense? I learned a lot about what I do and do...
It is so difficult. The transition took me over five years. However difficult it sometimes was, I also found the best friend in myself, if that makes sense? I learned a lot about what I do and do not like, I became a lot more gentle and interested in myself, and that journey of discovery was (and is) also sometimes really entertaining.
Aside from the excruciating loneliness of course, and the sadness, that hits hard sometimes.
I wish you all the best. I don’t know you, obviously, but as any human being, you deserve to be surrounded by people who like and love you to a delusional degree :).
This terrifies me. How did you cope with being alone both at home and out of home? And how did you go about meeting new people who became your friends, how did you meet and how did you build a...
got a divorce, lost all my ‘friends’
This terrifies me. How did you cope with being alone both at home and out of home? And how did you go about meeting new people who became your friends, how did you meet and how did you build a friendship?
Before it happened , it was probably one of the scariest things for me as well. When it did, less so. I remember the first night in my new place, which was a small studio I could stay in for a...
Before it happened , it was probably one of the scariest things for me as well. When it did, less so. I remember the first night in my new place, which was a small studio I could stay in for a couple of months because the person living there was on an extended holiday. My daughter was 2 years old and sleeping in my room in a small bed I installed for her. And I heard her breathing as she was sleeping, and I was about to go to sleep. And I felt as if nothing could ever really happen to me. I was just so, so happy. Not totally alone of course, because of my daughter, but in other ways I was. But I felt free. At the time I didn’t know it would cost me all my friendships, but even so. I would do it again in a heartbeat.
I still had my work, which is a lot of fun and helped/helps me to meet interesting people. I found my new partner thanks to my work. And because of all the shit I went through with my divorce, I feel the strength to be more strict about the people I allow in my life.
I understand your fear. But I guess some things are more scary to think about than they are to live through.
We've all got some degree of basic primate social needs, even when contact seems draining. I'm extremely introverted, socially anxious, and can easily go days on end without speaking to anyone but...
Exemplary
We've all got some degree of basic primate social needs, even when contact seems draining. I'm extremely introverted, socially anxious, and can easily go days on end without speaking to anyone but those most familiar to me. I find crowds abrasive to the point of agoraphobia, and experience misophonia when multiple people are talking at once.
But I know at a bone-deep level that avoiding people is bad for me, that it contributes to depressed mood and personal stagnation. I now travel frequently, start up conversations with strangers, attend meetings and conferences, interact with different teams of co-workers and customers, and just take the necessary amount of quiet downtime to recover.
Understand what you're passionate about (including, for the neurodivergent, things that you have obsessive or atypical degrees of interest in), find others who are also passionate about those things, and you'll have no shortage of friends. I've now got a wide network in the local wine, IT, political, healthcare, restaurant service, organic farming, LGBTQ+, and thrift/secondhand fashion communities, and could expand to charity, nature conservancy, gardening, hiking/biking, book groups, fitness, cooking, and others if I had the time and energy.
Dispense with the expectation that a "friend" is someone who has everything in common with you, makes no demands, and never presents challenges or pushback. You'll learn nothing and experience no personal growth from a passive clone of yourself, and give little in return. Having a wide range of "shallower" friendships is safer for everyone concerned - you're less at risk of making an excessive demand and being disappointed by rejection. Your circles can provide extensive networks that present opportunities for support, giving, and learning you'll never dream of on your own.
Also, anxiety and excitement have the same biochemistry. What differentiates them is information and attitude. When you familiarize yourself with a person, you gain information; when they reward you with attention and respect, your attitude goes from fear of rejection to comfort. If you embark on new interactions regularly, you can learn to anticipate more positives than negatives, and adjust your risk perception accordingly.
Footnote: This summer, spouse and I had seats at a four-top in a crowded, popular restaurant with a line out the door. [Helps to have a friendship with the owner. Spouse and the owner mutually refer tourists to their respective establishments all the time; the owner and I have had deep geeky talks about baking.] Spouse was rocking the Lumberjack/Outdoorsman look and I was dressed in my best thrift-store Old Hag style. A younger couple, dressed very punk, came by and said, "You guys seem cool, do you mind if we sit with you?". I have never thought of myself as cool in my life, but what the heck, we'll do this.
Great conversation ensued - turned out we got to sit with the chef for one of the top restaurants in a foodie region and his sommelier wife. It pays to advertise your inner passions, however weird they may be - like finds like given the opportunity.
I was watching Angela Colliers 'why do Trader Joes employees do that', and as an aside to the main point of the video, she goes on for a bit about how she likes to engage in small talk. And that...
I was watching Angela Colliers 'why do Trader Joes employees do that', and as an aside to the main point of the video, she goes on for a bit about how she likes to engage in small talk. And that stuck with me for some reason because i think i've come to the point in life where I have to enjoy small talk or learn how to engage in it because otherwise I don't get the social interactions that I need as regularly as I had when in school.
I always thought of small talk as superficial or a waste of time and energy, but im starting to accept the real benefits of sharing even a momentary connection is. And what you're sharing above supports that.
I'm actually not good at conventional small talk with strangers. I don't follow sports, watch much TV, and mostly read a lot or pursue somewhat esoteric hobbies. I generally invite people to share...
I'm actually not good at conventional small talk with strangers. I don't follow sports, watch much TV, and mostly read a lot or pursue somewhat esoteric hobbies.
I generally invite people to share something interesting about themselves, like "What did you think about this presentation", or "How did you enter this profession", or "Where did you find that jacket", with a sincere desire to learn.
The more I do it the easier it is. Being social is a muscle you have to work out. During covid I kinda let it go, but I got back into it by going out and playing pool once a week. Def recommend...
The more I do it the easier it is. Being social is a muscle you have to work out.
During covid I kinda let it go, but I got back into it by going out and playing pool once a week.
Def recommend going out and doing something 1 day a week same day every week. The schedule makes it easier to stick to, and easier to prepare for.
It’s easier to enjoy company when the environment is such that everyone is predisposed to be kind and in a good mood. How can we structure our lifestyles to increase the probability of pleasant...
It’s easier to enjoy company when the environment is such that everyone is predisposed to be kind and in a good mood. How can we structure our lifestyles to increase the probability of pleasant interactions?
It’s also been said that being occasionally annoyed is the cost of having a real community.
Friction and conflict is healthy for a good community, yeah. Just needs to be resolved in ways that end up in all parties learning and growing from it... Which isn't easy
Friction and conflict is healthy for a good community, yeah. Just needs to be resolved in ways that end up in all parties learning and growing from it... Which isn't easy
I feel this! I'm trying to use the recent cultural import of Halloween for people in my neighbourhood to explore social friction and raising children in "the village", so far I've failed miserably...
said that being occasionally annoyed is the cost of having a real community.
I feel this! I'm trying to use the recent cultural import of Halloween for people in my neighbourhood to explore social friction and raising children in "the village", so far I've failed miserably where people seem to lean into less social interactions rather than more. Oh well :)
I learned how to do breath attention meditation and started doing it anytime someone or something annoyed me. Life-changing. After annoyance, I moved up to stronger states like anger and anxiety.
I learned how to do breath attention meditation and started doing it anytime someone or something annoyed me. Life-changing. After annoyance, I moved up to stronger states like anger and anxiety.
Came here to say this. Meditation, breath work, and therapy have made a massive difference in my ability to socialize. Some days I still feel that “wall” between me and others, but most of the...
Came here to say this. Meditation, breath work, and therapy have made a massive difference in my ability to socialize. Some days I still feel that “wall” between me and others, but most of the time I just feel lighter and not as in my own head. It makes engaging with strangers and acquaintances a lot easier and enjoyable.
I'm including @chundissimo & @imperator too Would you mind sharing your exact breathing techniques and elaborate on the effect? I've been practising box breathing on and off for a couple of years...
Would you mind sharing your exact breathing techniques and elaborate on the effect?
I've been practising box breathing on and off for a couple of years and I'm able to use it fairly consistently to calm myself down even among people. I find it works well enough, but I'm also curious to learn more.
I’ve tried a number of techniques but these days the main one I use is just to dissipate strong emotions: deep breath in until your lungs feel full three more small breaths in (this should feel a...
I’ve tried a number of techniques but these days the main one I use is just to dissipate strong emotions:
deep breath in until your lungs feel full
three more small breaths in (this should feel a little challenging)
hold for three seconds
exhale slowly until fully expelled
three more small breaths out (this will also feel a little tough)
hold for three seconds
repeat everything once or twice, then transition into normal, deep breathing.
Don’t do too many times or you might hyperventilate, but it’s a good way I’ve found to “reset” my nervous system if I’m feeling overcome by anxiety.
Yoga, it's tough and forces you to focus on the movements and the breath. I find this goes a long way in terms of a reset. Plus it's good for strength and flexibility. I do it 15 minutes twice a...
Yoga, it's tough and forces you to focus on the movements and the breath. I find this goes a long way in terms of a reset. Plus it's good for strength and flexibility.
I do it 15 minutes twice a day minimum. Helps me sleep better and I'm working on my hip mobility which is quite poor.
Basically as long as your exhale is longer than your inhale it will create a calming effect on the nervous system
I will also note that I work a high demand job (VP) and actually love the stress and intensity, but need these resets
YouTube - Yoga with Kassandra Been doing this over a month and it's been great to stay and end my day. Also been listening to: Dr. Arthur Brooks, bought one of his books but haven't started it...
YouTube - Yoga with Kassandra
Been doing this over a month and it's been great to stay and end my day.
Also been listening to: Dr. Arthur Brooks, bought one of his books but haven't started it yet.
I've not always some what's best for my mental health but trying a little at a time 😀
Better than a logical child conversation. Nothing more draining than that. "No, you're right it is unfair, but that's not how the real world works and that's why I'm the man." I'm half convinced...
Better than a logical child conversation. Nothing more draining than that. "No, you're right it is unfair, but that's not how the real world works and that's why I'm the man."
I'm half convinced the world would be better if we put the 3rd graders in charge.
Quite general question. Love it. My solution is to find "your" people. And stick to them. We have (my god) more then 8000000000 people around the world, and some people definitely worth and...
Quite general question. Love it.
My solution is to find "your" people. And stick to them. We have (my god) more then 8000000000 people around the world, and some people definitely worth and comfortable to spend time with them.
I'm generally pretty introverted and can hit mental limits from hanging out with certain groups of people too much (depends on how much I have to manage them, like my old ADHD-plagued D&D group)....
I'm generally pretty introverted and can hit mental limits from hanging out with certain groups of people too much (depends on how much I have to manage them, like my old ADHD-plagued D&D group). However, I also have groups of friends that leave me feeling relaxed and recharged. The latter set of groups are the ones that introverts need to find, but it takes effort and luck.
Relatable. I’m fairly extroverted but do burn out if I have a couple social engagements in a row. My current D&D group (I DM) frustrates and exhausts me because they just don’t seem like it...
Relatable. I’m fairly extroverted but do burn out if I have a couple social engagements in a row. My current D&D group (I DM) frustrates and exhausts me because they just don’t seem like it matters enough to them to respond when I text a question to the group, own the development of their character, be more proactive. “We’re busy”. I’m a full time dad with lots of other things going on and I still manage to handle the game…so that’s not an excuse for people who are only working and don’t have kids.
My wife is a part of it, too, and kinda acts the same. She makes it feel like it’s a “me” problem, but I’m not sure that’s true.
Sounds like you're trying to make the game more serious than everyone else involved wants it to be? Some of the most fun campaigns I've taken part in the DM was just winging it every week.
Sounds like you're trying to make the game more serious than everyone else involved wants it to be? Some of the most fun campaigns I've taken part in the DM was just winging it every week.
I guess I'd recommend looking more deeply at this. What annoys you about people is probably different than what annoys me, so I/we can't help much without more information. At a basic level,...
others tend to make you either angry or anxious, urgh.
I guess I'd recommend looking more deeply at this. What annoys you about people is probably different than what annoys me, so I/we can't help much without more information. At a basic level, you'll have to try to figure out if you're just hanging out with the wrong crowd (as many in this thread have suggested), or, if you find that almost everyone annoys you, then I imagine the solution may be something about building up capacity to handle that annoyance.
So, what annoys you or causes anxiety, specifically?
It's hard to pin down exactly. Sometimes we talk about things and their replies feel like consistently miss the point, despite how much I explain or describe. Sometimes it's the things they say or...
It's hard to pin down exactly. Sometimes we talk about things and their replies feel like consistently miss the point, despite how much I explain or describe. Sometimes it's the things they say or the way they say it that make me feels I should be careful for some reason. I don't think anyone has done or say anything meant to harm and I probably was just paranoid.
Occasionally there are few who I felt had similar interest but I couldn't follow up. When people are friendly to me I can be friendly back, but at some point I started to feel like I should avoid being too close, for no reason. So the issue at least partly is on me.
I promise this is normal. I used to pride myself on my ability to explain this or that so failure to communicate really stung. In my experience their was a couple of problems Two people speaking...
Sometimes we talk about things and their replies feel like consistently miss the point, despite how much I explain or describe.
I promise this is normal. I used to pride myself on my ability to explain this or that so failure to communicate really stung. In my experience their was a couple of problems
Two people speaking the same language are still engaging in a translation exercise. An idea perfectly understood inside you own head and communicated with words that make perfect sense to you can easily be lost in translation. Remember, people make whole careers out of bridging this gap, it is not as easy as it looks.
Much communication is actually emotional regulation in disguise. Social animals are still animals and much of our communication is actually designed to transmit our current emotional state as well as help us unload pent up feelings. The actual contents of the conversation is often discarded in cases like this in favor of looking at things like tone and body language.
People are terrible listeners and that means you too. The human brain is constantly juggling novelty seeking and predictability. One theory about why people enjoy music is that its balanced to trigger both reward systems. Spending time with is like friends is like a well crafted song, predicable but novel in a nonthreatening way. Messing up this balance even a little bit is like playing a discordant note and it causes people to instinctively reject what you are trying to communicate.
I've never thought of friend interactions as music before, that's an interesting way to see it, thanks. I probably messes up often on the emotional regulation department too. Sometimes I got too...
I've never thought of friend interactions as music before, that's an interesting way to see it, thanks.
I probably messes up often on the emotional regulation department too. Sometimes I got too knee-jerk and noticed people then retreated and changed topics. But by then it was too late, hmm.
I'm really fond of the music metaphor because it conveys how delicate the process can be but also when it goes right it's really fun and how a wrong note is something you can laugh off and keep...
I'm really fond of the music metaphor because it conveys how delicate the process can be but also when it goes right it's really fun and how a wrong note is something you can laugh off and keep going until you get it right.
I swear at least 80% of all of society's problems seem to be traceable in some way to people not being able to figure out how to make friends as adults, and the remaining 20% is just the stuff I...
I swear at least 80% of all of society's problems seem to be traceable in some way to people not being able to figure out how to make friends as adults, and the remaining 20% is just the stuff I haven't finished mapping out yet. One of these days I will write a how-to manual.
In short:
Define what it is that you want in a friend.
Be aware that the vast majority of people on this earth won't be your friend, and be OK with that fact.
Openly tell people what it is that you want. That includes potential friends and the people you already know. Network!
Work on it, constantly and consistently.
Build on the relationships you do have, and don't feel afraid to start new ones.
I'll agree that a huge amount of society's problems these days are due to less socialization, but I don't think it's just that we all forgot how to talk to people. There's some nuances here we...
I'll agree that a huge amount of society's problems these days are due to less socialization, but I don't think it's just that we all forgot how to talk to people. There's some nuances here we should be aware of.
The advent of smartphones led to the always-online culture we have today. Nowadays it's abnormal to meet friends or potential romantic partners offline. COVID happened, and we were all stuck inside for a year.
Both those things along with the increased cost of living and stagnant wages helped lead to the decline of third spaces. I can't just go bowling or hang out at an arcade anymore. Even movie theaters and libraries are closing. What do we have left but coffee shops where everyone is absorbed into their macbooks and not socializing?
With the distrust sowed by the media these days it seems like you get looked at weird for saying hi at a bus stop or making a comment to another customer in a grocery lineup etc.
Yeah, I'm depressed, have social anxiety, probably on the spectrum, but it's never been this hard. Society has seemingly shifted the act of meeting and talking to people to an online-only activity.
Yeah, no. That’s not real. Things are not as hard as you think they are. I’ve also had to deal with cycles of depression and social anxiety, and so that’s why I’m confidently telling you to...
Yeah, no. That’s not real. Things are not as hard as you think they are. I’ve also had to deal with cycles of depression and social anxiety, and so that’s why I’m confidently telling you to distrust the metaphorical voices in your head that are saying these things. In fact, I am on a drug that has caused me to be on one of those cycles right now, and unfortunately it will be a few weeks to be able to ween off of it. So I very much empathize with you!
Honestly you might be surprised at how many times you get random people talking to you at the grocery store if you are open to it yourself. Your body language really makes a difference. When I am having a good day and I’m loose, I get people - women most often - initiating small talk with me. One day I had a lovely chat with one of the workers at a local market about a stray cat who lives in the area. And where I live, bowling alleys and arcades are also having a resurgence. I had a play date with a friend at one about a month ago, in which we rented out one of its karaoke rooms and belted off very off-key tunes.
And if you are having such a hard time meeting people offline? Meet them online first, then meet them somewhere offline. Find a good coffee spot - usually it’s not hard to find someplace better than Starbucks, and you’ve got a place that’s an instant draw to meet someone at. I’ve got a place that has a pour-over coffee that’s so good that adding milk and sugar actually ruins it, and that usually gets people intrigued.
The thing about depression and social anxiety that sucks the most is that if you want to get out of them, you have to do the things that they make you want to avoid; you have to go out and see people and do things. Otherwise things tend to get worse.
I read something recently that stuck with me, which was that "inconvenience is the cost of connection". It seems like a lot of us expect social interaction to be free and easy, when it actually...
I read something recently that stuck with me, which was that "inconvenience is the cost of connection". It seems like a lot of us expect social interaction to be free and easy, when it actually requires us to get off the sofa and deal with people who approach things in different ways.
As someone who usually defaults to staying in with my family because that's the simplest option, it has encouraged me to put in some extra effort to figure out how to schedule things and make social interactions work, and to put up with them going less than perfectly.
I used to think my social battery was really low. I'd only really want to hang out with a group like once a week and I would find it exhausting. Like others have said, I have friends who don't...
I used to think my social battery was really low. I'd only really want to hang out with a group like once a week and I would find it exhausting.
Like others have said, I have friends who don't drain that battery. They maybe don't "recharge" it like pure extroverts claim, but I could spend all day with them and it wouldn't bother me.
I find if I got too long without seeing people, I get a craving to be social, but between all the socialising I have to do at work, I am quite content with time myself.
That said, with the right people doing the right thing I would jump at the chance to do it for extended periods!
I don't really :( Following this thread with great interest.. after I do things with others, almost no matter who it is, half the time I have serious crashes afterwards
I don't really :( Following this thread with great interest.. after I do things with others, almost no matter who it is, half the time I have serious crashes afterwards
Depends on the person and setting. I like to think I'm pretty good at being around other people, it's rare for me to feel friction. I think I inherited my mom's more personable traits that tends...
Depends on the person and setting. I like to think I'm pretty good at being around other people, it's rare for me to feel friction. I think I inherited my mom's more personable traits that tends to make people just feel at ease around me, which is funny since I'm considerably more introverted than her.
Sometimes though, just being in the presence of other people without talking can be pretty nice. In high school I attended a writing camp, and was surprised at how invigorating it was to just write in the same space as other people. Similar story in college with the game development club, we just met up every Friday and people could work together, talk, or work solo.
So if you have any solo hobbies/interests like that, could be worth looking into things like workshops where everyone can sit and choose to work in silence.
Short answer is I dont. When you stop worrying about it its really not a big deal to be alone. When I used to yearn to be popular I was really hoping for something that friendship never really...
Short answer is I dont. When you stop worrying about it its really not a big deal to be alone.
When I used to yearn to be popular I was really hoping for something that friendship never really guarantees, which is why my childhood friendships never felt fulfilling.
I love being with my friends, hate being around strangers and coworkers, and love being alone. I just don't really like small talk and idle chit chat with people I don't know very well. I feel...
I love being with my friends, hate being around strangers and coworkers, and love being alone.
I just don't really like small talk and idle chit chat with people I don't know very well. I feel really awkward in the elevator with people attempting to make conversation, or passing the same person in the hallway for the fourth time. I'd rather just be alone reading a book, or hanging out with people I've known for years.
It's weird because I have no problem speaking or performing in front of large groups of people, which I've heard introgerted people have issues with. That stuff doesn't scare me at all, and I even kind of like it.
It's the 1:1 stuff, or being at a party where I don't know anyone.
The bane of my existence are "networking events" where you're just supposed to go around and introduce yourself and strike up conversations.
Usually I awkwardly stand around for a bit, force myself to say hi to someone that is also awkwardly standing around, the conservation awkwardly dies, and I get the hell out of there as soon as humanly possible.
I wish I wasn't like that, I'd like the ability to strike up fun conversations with cashiers or whatever like a lot of my friends have, but I just have this inability to both think of something to say, and the ability to muster up the willpower to actually want to do it in the moment.
I feel you. I’ve been there. And then I got a divorce, lost all my ‘friends’, found other people and turns out I didn’t suffer from anxiety. I was just spending time around the wrong people.
I’m still not the most social crayon in the box, but it amazes me how long I can be fulfilled from an afternoon with a real friend.
What was the difference between your old 'friends' and new friends that was most striking?
Hm. Interesting question.
In hindsight, I think my ‘friends’ just… didn’t really like me? And yet I stuck with them because I was afraid of being alone.
After my divorce I was truly alone and it actually wasn’t that bad. It’s a cliche, I know, but being alone felt better, less lonely, than being surrounded by the people who didn’t really like me.
Now that I’ve grown out of my fear of being alone, I feel like I have more healthy friendships. I’m not afraid any more of losing people just by being who I am. And so I discovered the joy of knowing some people who I just know, and really feel like they actually like spending time with me. With the weird me. Not the ‘social function’ me. It’s a joy so pure I don’t need much of it to feel satisfied.
It took a long time for me to learn that there exists negative socialization, social interaction that worsens your need for social interaction rather than satiating it.
It's counter-intuitive because you're thirsty, so you're drinking water, but then you're even thirstier after, even though you did exactly the thing you're supposed to do when you're thirsty. And then you start getting really confused, because the water is your friend, and you like spending time with them, and they seemingly like spending time with you.
When the truth is, you're only spending time with them because the alternative, at least in the immediate term, is no socialization. The difficult truth to learn is that negative socialization is worse than no socialization.
Granted, you're just going to have bad social interactions sometimes, even with your best of friends. But when social interactions are consistently negative with someone(s), that's usually a sign you should distance yourself from them. Even if it means giving up a social outlet, because rarely are you going to find a better outlet when you're so drained from dealing with your negative one.
That’s really well put, thanks.
There's a lot of weirdos out there. All my friends are weirdos. I'm a weirdo. It was the most liberating feeling ever learning to openly be my weirdo self.
Yes!
I’m going through this right now
I’m in the process of letting go of friends Ive had for a long time cause for the last few years now I get the feeling that they don’t really like me. Spending time with them feels like a chore where they quickly update me on all the basics about their lives and then we go home.
I’m sad and lonely but Ive actually felt this way for years and Ive been trying to make new friends but it’s difficult to make the leap from “people I see every week and share a hobby with” to real actual friends who I can talk to about real actual thoughts.
It is so difficult. The transition took me over five years. However difficult it sometimes was, I also found the best friend in myself, if that makes sense? I learned a lot about what I do and do not like, I became a lot more gentle and interested in myself, and that journey of discovery was (and is) also sometimes really entertaining.
Aside from the excruciating loneliness of course, and the sadness, that hits hard sometimes.
I wish you all the best. I don’t know you, obviously, but as any human being, you deserve to be surrounded by people who like and love you to a delusional degree :).
This terrifies me. How did you cope with being alone both at home and out of home? And how did you go about meeting new people who became your friends, how did you meet and how did you build a friendship?
Before it happened , it was probably one of the scariest things for me as well. When it did, less so. I remember the first night in my new place, which was a small studio I could stay in for a couple of months because the person living there was on an extended holiday. My daughter was 2 years old and sleeping in my room in a small bed I installed for her. And I heard her breathing as she was sleeping, and I was about to go to sleep. And I felt as if nothing could ever really happen to me. I was just so, so happy. Not totally alone of course, because of my daughter, but in other ways I was. But I felt free. At the time I didn’t know it would cost me all my friendships, but even so. I would do it again in a heartbeat.
I still had my work, which is a lot of fun and helped/helps me to meet interesting people. I found my new partner thanks to my work. And because of all the shit I went through with my divorce, I feel the strength to be more strict about the people I allow in my life.
I understand your fear. But I guess some things are more scary to think about than they are to live through.
I feel this deeply. Kinda wild to discover how well liked you are leaving the people you spend the most time with
We've all got some degree of basic primate social needs, even when contact seems draining. I'm extremely introverted, socially anxious, and can easily go days on end without speaking to anyone but those most familiar to me. I find crowds abrasive to the point of agoraphobia, and experience misophonia when multiple people are talking at once.
But I know at a bone-deep level that avoiding people is bad for me, that it contributes to depressed mood and personal stagnation. I now travel frequently, start up conversations with strangers, attend meetings and conferences, interact with different teams of co-workers and customers, and just take the necessary amount of quiet downtime to recover.
Understand what you're passionate about (including, for the neurodivergent, things that you have obsessive or atypical degrees of interest in), find others who are also passionate about those things, and you'll have no shortage of friends. I've now got a wide network in the local wine, IT, political, healthcare, restaurant service, organic farming, LGBTQ+, and thrift/secondhand fashion communities, and could expand to charity, nature conservancy, gardening, hiking/biking, book groups, fitness, cooking, and others if I had the time and energy.
Dispense with the expectation that a "friend" is someone who has everything in common with you, makes no demands, and never presents challenges or pushback. You'll learn nothing and experience no personal growth from a passive clone of yourself, and give little in return. Having a wide range of "shallower" friendships is safer for everyone concerned - you're less at risk of making an excessive demand and being disappointed by rejection. Your circles can provide extensive networks that present opportunities for support, giving, and learning you'll never dream of on your own.
Also, anxiety and excitement have the same biochemistry. What differentiates them is information and attitude. When you familiarize yourself with a person, you gain information; when they reward you with attention and respect, your attitude goes from fear of rejection to comfort. If you embark on new interactions regularly, you can learn to anticipate more positives than negatives, and adjust your risk perception accordingly.
Footnote: This summer, spouse and I had seats at a four-top in a crowded, popular restaurant with a line out the door. [Helps to have a friendship with the owner. Spouse and the owner mutually refer tourists to their respective establishments all the time; the owner and I have had deep geeky talks about baking.] Spouse was rocking the Lumberjack/Outdoorsman look and I was dressed in my best thrift-store Old Hag style. A younger couple, dressed very punk, came by and said, "You guys seem cool, do you mind if we sit with you?". I have never thought of myself as cool in my life, but what the heck, we'll do this.
Great conversation ensued - turned out we got to sit with the chef for one of the top restaurants in a foodie region and his sommelier wife. It pays to advertise your inner passions, however weird they may be - like finds like given the opportunity.
I was watching Angela Colliers 'why do Trader Joes employees do that', and as an aside to the main point of the video, she goes on for a bit about how she likes to engage in small talk. And that stuck with me for some reason because i think i've come to the point in life where I have to enjoy small talk or learn how to engage in it because otherwise I don't get the social interactions that I need as regularly as I had when in school.
I always thought of small talk as superficial or a waste of time and energy, but im starting to accept the real benefits of sharing even a momentary connection is. And what you're sharing above supports that.
I'm actually not good at conventional small talk with strangers. I don't follow sports, watch much TV, and mostly read a lot or pursue somewhat esoteric hobbies.
I generally invite people to share something interesting about themselves, like "What did you think about this presentation", or "How did you enter this profession", or "Where did you find that jacket", with a sincere desire to learn.
Well, as we figured out in a previous topic, small talk can be almost anything, personally I like talking about raisins :)
The more I do it the easier it is. Being social is a muscle you have to work out.
During covid I kinda let it go, but I got back into it by going out and playing pool once a week.
Def recommend going out and doing something 1 day a week same day every week. The schedule makes it easier to stick to, and easier to prepare for.
It’s easier to enjoy company when the environment is such that everyone is predisposed to be kind and in a good mood. How can we structure our lifestyles to increase the probability of pleasant interactions?
It’s also been said that being occasionally annoyed is the cost of having a real community.
Friction and conflict is healthy for a good community, yeah. Just needs to be resolved in ways that end up in all parties learning and growing from it... Which isn't easy
I feel this! I'm trying to use the recent cultural import of Halloween for people in my neighbourhood to explore social friction and raising children in "the village", so far I've failed miserably where people seem to lean into less social interactions rather than more. Oh well :)
I learned how to do breath attention meditation and started doing it anytime someone or something annoyed me. Life-changing. After annoyance, I moved up to stronger states like anger and anxiety.
Came here to say this. Meditation, breath work, and therapy have made a massive difference in my ability to socialize. Some days I still feel that “wall” between me and others, but most of the time I just feel lighter and not as in my own head. It makes engaging with strangers and acquaintances a lot easier and enjoyable.
Been doing this to start and end my day for about a month. Still learning some my brain wonders really quickly. Definitely helps
I'm including @chundissimo & @imperator too
Would you mind sharing your exact breathing techniques and elaborate on the effect?
I've been practising box breathing on and off for a couple of years and I'm able to use it fairly consistently to calm myself down even among people. I find it works well enough, but I'm also curious to learn more.
I’ve tried a number of techniques but these days the main one I use is just to dissipate strong emotions:
Don’t do too many times or you might hyperventilate, but it’s a good way I’ve found to “reset” my nervous system if I’m feeling overcome by anxiety.
Yoga, it's tough and forces you to focus on the movements and the breath. I find this goes a long way in terms of a reset. Plus it's good for strength and flexibility.
I do it 15 minutes twice a day minimum. Helps me sleep better and I'm working on my hip mobility which is quite poor.
Basically as long as your exhale is longer than your inhale it will create a calming effect on the nervous system
I will also note that I work a high demand job (VP) and actually love the stress and intensity, but need these resets
Do you have any particular books or other sources for your yoga practice?
I'm interested in specifics!
YouTube - Yoga with Kassandra
Been doing this over a month and it's been great to stay and end my day.
Also been listening to: Dr. Arthur Brooks, bought one of his books but haven't started it yet.
I've not always some what's best for my mental health but trying a little at a time 😀
Have kids! You'll kill for logical adult interaction. /s
Better than a logical child conversation. Nothing more draining than that. "No, you're right it is unfair, but that's not how the real world works and that's why I'm the man."
I'm half convinced the world would be better if we put the 3rd graders in charge.
Quite general question. Love it.
My solution is to find "your" people. And stick to them. We have (my god) more then 8000000000 people around the world, and some people definitely worth and comfortable to spend time with them.
I'm generally pretty introverted and can hit mental limits from hanging out with certain groups of people too much (depends on how much I have to manage them, like my old ADHD-plagued D&D group). However, I also have groups of friends that leave me feeling relaxed and recharged. The latter set of groups are the ones that introverts need to find, but it takes effort and luck.
Relatable. I’m fairly extroverted but do burn out if I have a couple social engagements in a row. My current D&D group (I DM) frustrates and exhausts me because they just don’t seem like it matters enough to them to respond when I text a question to the group, own the development of their character, be more proactive. “We’re busy”. I’m a full time dad with lots of other things going on and I still manage to handle the game…so that’s not an excuse for people who are only working and don’t have kids.
My wife is a part of it, too, and kinda acts the same. She makes it feel like it’s a “me” problem, but I’m not sure that’s true.
Sounds like you're trying to make the game more serious than everyone else involved wants it to be? Some of the most fun campaigns I've taken part in the DM was just winging it every week.
I don't think responding to a scheduling request or "what are you interested in doing this upcoming session" is much more serious...
I guess I'd recommend looking more deeply at this. What annoys you about people is probably different than what annoys me, so I/we can't help much without more information. At a basic level, you'll have to try to figure out if you're just hanging out with the wrong crowd (as many in this thread have suggested), or, if you find that almost everyone annoys you, then I imagine the solution may be something about building up capacity to handle that annoyance.
So, what annoys you or causes anxiety, specifically?
It's hard to pin down exactly. Sometimes we talk about things and their replies feel like consistently miss the point, despite how much I explain or describe. Sometimes it's the things they say or the way they say it that make me feels I should be careful for some reason. I don't think anyone has done or say anything meant to harm and I probably was just paranoid.
Occasionally there are few who I felt had similar interest but I couldn't follow up. When people are friendly to me I can be friendly back, but at some point I started to feel like I should avoid being too close, for no reason. So the issue at least partly is on me.
I promise this is normal. I used to pride myself on my ability to explain this or that so failure to communicate really stung. In my experience their was a couple of problems
Two people speaking the same language are still engaging in a translation exercise. An idea perfectly understood inside you own head and communicated with words that make perfect sense to you can easily be lost in translation. Remember, people make whole careers out of bridging this gap, it is not as easy as it looks.
Much communication is actually emotional regulation in disguise. Social animals are still animals and much of our communication is actually designed to transmit our current emotional state as well as help us unload pent up feelings. The actual contents of the conversation is often discarded in cases like this in favor of looking at things like tone and body language.
People are terrible listeners and that means you too. The human brain is constantly juggling novelty seeking and predictability. One theory about why people enjoy music is that its balanced to trigger both reward systems. Spending time with is like friends is like a well crafted song, predicable but novel in a nonthreatening way. Messing up this balance even a little bit is like playing a discordant note and it causes people to instinctively reject what you are trying to communicate.
I've never thought of friend interactions as music before, that's an interesting way to see it, thanks.
I probably messes up often on the emotional regulation department too. Sometimes I got too knee-jerk and noticed people then retreated and changed topics. But by then it was too late, hmm.
I'm really fond of the music metaphor because it conveys how delicate the process can be but also when it goes right it's really fun and how a wrong note is something you can laugh off and keep going until you get it right.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?
Oh as in I loose my temper
THC
I swear at least 80% of all of society's problems seem to be traceable in some way to people not being able to figure out how to make friends as adults, and the remaining 20% is just the stuff I haven't finished mapping out yet. One of these days I will write a how-to manual.
In short:
Define what it is that you want in a friend.
Be aware that the vast majority of people on this earth won't be your friend, and be OK with that fact.
Openly tell people what it is that you want. That includes potential friends and the people you already know. Network!
Work on it, constantly and consistently.
Build on the relationships you do have, and don't feel afraid to start new ones.
Signed, an ex-loaner
I'll agree that a huge amount of society's problems these days are due to less socialization, but I don't think it's just that we all forgot how to talk to people. There's some nuances here we should be aware of.
The advent of smartphones led to the always-online culture we have today. Nowadays it's abnormal to meet friends or potential romantic partners offline. COVID happened, and we were all stuck inside for a year.
Both those things along with the increased cost of living and stagnant wages helped lead to the decline of third spaces. I can't just go bowling or hang out at an arcade anymore. Even movie theaters and libraries are closing. What do we have left but coffee shops where everyone is absorbed into their macbooks and not socializing?
With the distrust sowed by the media these days it seems like you get looked at weird for saying hi at a bus stop or making a comment to another customer in a grocery lineup etc.
Yeah, I'm depressed, have social anxiety, probably on the spectrum, but it's never been this hard. Society has seemingly shifted the act of meeting and talking to people to an online-only activity.
Yeah, no. That’s not real. Things are not as hard as you think they are. I’ve also had to deal with cycles of depression and social anxiety, and so that’s why I’m confidently telling you to distrust the metaphorical voices in your head that are saying these things. In fact, I am on a drug that has caused me to be on one of those cycles right now, and unfortunately it will be a few weeks to be able to ween off of it. So I very much empathize with you!
Honestly you might be surprised at how many times you get random people talking to you at the grocery store if you are open to it yourself. Your body language really makes a difference. When I am having a good day and I’m loose, I get people - women most often - initiating small talk with me. One day I had a lovely chat with one of the workers at a local market about a stray cat who lives in the area. And where I live, bowling alleys and arcades are also having a resurgence. I had a play date with a friend at one about a month ago, in which we rented out one of its karaoke rooms and belted off very off-key tunes.
And if you are having such a hard time meeting people offline? Meet them online first, then meet them somewhere offline. Find a good coffee spot - usually it’s not hard to find someplace better than Starbucks, and you’ve got a place that’s an instant draw to meet someone at. I’ve got a place that has a pour-over coffee that’s so good that adding milk and sugar actually ruins it, and that usually gets people intrigued.
The thing about depression and social anxiety that sucks the most is that if you want to get out of them, you have to do the things that they make you want to avoid; you have to go out and see people and do things. Otherwise things tend to get worse.
I read something recently that stuck with me, which was that "inconvenience is the cost of connection". It seems like a lot of us expect social interaction to be free and easy, when it actually requires us to get off the sofa and deal with people who approach things in different ways.
As someone who usually defaults to staying in with my family because that's the simplest option, it has encouraged me to put in some extra effort to figure out how to schedule things and make social interactions work, and to put up with them going less than perfectly.
I used to think my social battery was really low. I'd only really want to hang out with a group like once a week and I would find it exhausting.
Like others have said, I have friends who don't drain that battery. They maybe don't "recharge" it like pure extroverts claim, but I could spend all day with them and it wouldn't bother me.
I find if I got too long without seeing people, I get a craving to be social, but between all the socialising I have to do at work, I am quite content with time myself.
That said, with the right people doing the right thing I would jump at the chance to do it for extended periods!
I don't really :( Following this thread with great interest.. after I do things with others, almost no matter who it is, half the time I have serious crashes afterwards
I like being around most people but it's exhausting. So I take breaks.
Depends on the person and setting. I like to think I'm pretty good at being around other people, it's rare for me to feel friction. I think I inherited my mom's more personable traits that tends to make people just feel at ease around me, which is funny since I'm considerably more introverted than her.
Sometimes though, just being in the presence of other people without talking can be pretty nice. In high school I attended a writing camp, and was surprised at how invigorating it was to just write in the same space as other people. Similar story in college with the game development club, we just met up every Friday and people could work together, talk, or work solo.
So if you have any solo hobbies/interests like that, could be worth looking into things like workshops where everyone can sit and choose to work in silence.
Short answer is I dont. When you stop worrying about it its really not a big deal to be alone.
When I used to yearn to be popular I was really hoping for something that friendship never really guarantees, which is why my childhood friendships never felt fulfilling.
badly
I love being with my friends, hate being around strangers and coworkers, and love being alone.
I just don't really like small talk and idle chit chat with people I don't know very well. I feel really awkward in the elevator with people attempting to make conversation, or passing the same person in the hallway for the fourth time. I'd rather just be alone reading a book, or hanging out with people I've known for years.
It's weird because I have no problem speaking or performing in front of large groups of people, which I've heard introgerted people have issues with. That stuff doesn't scare me at all, and I even kind of like it.
It's the 1:1 stuff, or being at a party where I don't know anyone.
The bane of my existence are "networking events" where you're just supposed to go around and introduce yourself and strike up conversations.
Usually I awkwardly stand around for a bit, force myself to say hi to someone that is also awkwardly standing around, the conservation awkwardly dies, and I get the hell out of there as soon as humanly possible.
I wish I wasn't like that, I'd like the ability to strike up fun conversations with cashiers or whatever like a lot of my friends have, but I just have this inability to both think of something to say, and the ability to muster up the willpower to actually want to do it in the moment.