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What's something about your lived experience you wished people understood, but rarely do?
It can really be anything, just something that's stuck with you.
It can really be anything, just something that's stuck with you.
I think genetics and circumstance put you on a path that you have very little control over, at least until you have a "wake the fuck up" moment that is usually way too late.
As a former heroin addict who has 6 years of clean time and speaks fairly openly about it, I've had people ask me, "What would you say to convince kids not to use heroin?"
Nothing. There is nothing to say. Genetics, trauma, shitty parenting, and/or their peers put them on the path they're on. They're on train tracks and probably can't be redirected until the end of the line. Once in a blue moon someone might have a life-altering event that drastically shifts their path ahead of time. I think it's incredibly rare.
For me personally, I cannot see how my addiction could have been avoided after maybe age 7 or 8, but probably way before then too. Looking back, I can see clear as day that everything a heroin addict needs to start using were things I had in spades. Low tolerance for discomfort, chronic sadness, a desire to liked even by shitty people, poor role models, high empathy even at personal cost, ability to lie extremely well (including to myself), and a strong desire to control my mood at all costs. I just always had a monkey on my back and a devil on my shoulder. It was simply a matter of time before I got hooked on something and if opiates were never invented I would probably have chosen the next best thing.
My life had to bottom out before I could even begin to examine these aspects of myself. Maybe even that part was pre-determined to an extent. Who can say?
Whenever I read about a serial killer, a thief, a chronic liar, a gambler, a serial cheater, etc., I have this interesting habit where I immediately empathize with them. Yes, people who hurt people need to be prevented from doing so even if it means prison. Yes, I feel worse for the victims and maybe I should feel no empathy for the perpetrator. But I never can avoid feeling that empathy. I even look at Jeffrey Dahmer and think, "That poor guy never had a chance. Genetics or circumstance made him completely sick and he was always going to give in eventually."
My friend at work has a husband who is a sex addict and serial cheater. When she revealed this to me and told me he had cheated on her with a prostitute, I asked her, "Why is he so sad?" She maintains that my asking her that taught her more about her husband than several years of couples therapy.
It kind of spooks me if I think about it too much because even though I hit rock bottom and got my addiction under control through a lot of soul searching, I can't help but wonder what other secret train tracks I'm riding right now.
The flip side of this, which is also very cynical, is that I think most people don't choose to have their good traits either. You always remember people's birthdays and have no desire to kill, cheat, steal, or use drugs? Great, but it's not like it's a noble choice you made because it was right. You just didn't inherit those particular burdens.
I hope this doesn't sound too negative or cynical. I actually am in a very good place mentally and emotionally these days. It's just something that bounces around my head from time to time. I think social sciences and genetics are going to rock our understanding of free will in the next few decades. That's all.
Edit: I want to clarify something because this is getting some feedback. I'm not saying free will doesn't exist at all or that you can't utilize it ever. But my comment below probably clarifies what I'm saying more: How can we have true free will when we see increased violence in communities where people are exposed to lead?
I'm reminded of a commencement speech by David Foster Wallace titled "this is water." In it he talks about what it means to live, day in and day out.
My interpretation of his speech was that the real value of higher education is being given the tools to reject life on the default settings. Rather than auto pilot through life and be annoyed, or happy, or upset by all the things that usually cause that in our day to day, you can choose to be more critical, or empathetic, or scrutinizing of them.
I don't think education is the only way to develop those skills, but it is probably the most replicable.
I do want to say that while your experiences are certainly valid and true, they aren't universal. There are people who worked hard for their good traits, or who escaped their circumstance. Life is full of tropes, and their exceptions. Part of not living life on autopilot is rejecting, at least some of the time, those truisms we tell ourselves are universal and which we assume guide others behaviors.
I think you are misunderstanding the meaning here. They are not saying that people have no choice in who they are or that they cannot grow. They are saying that environment has a huge effect on what choices a person will be able to take. Dahmer is tragic to them not because he had no choice but to become who he did, but because he is imagining what circumstances he had to have gone through where it would have appeared to be the best choice to do that. The world warps us in ways we do not want to admit to.
I wouldn't want to speculate too much on the intent, and I didn't read it as arguing that people cannot grow. However, there are a number of statements whose simple reading are of a somewhat fatalistic nature, or one of predetermination.
But I was only really even addressing those bits obliquely. My main point in commenting was to underscore his or her other points, such as:
Which is one of the parts that reminded me of the David Foster Wallace speech, which I would recommend reading.
Back to my point above with respect to the fatalism. As someone who has escaped their circumstance, who grew up with an addict parent, who has been a volunteer advocate for kids in foster care, and a youth mentor, I sympathize with the feeling that people in addiction or other crisis are on train tracks.
But I don't share the viewpoint that peoples trajectories are only changed by rare life altering events. I've made many grand and dramatic interventions in young peoples lives, courtroom showdowns with abusive parents in dependency cases, etc. But what I've found is that many of the people who I had the biggest impact on was simply from me being present in a generally positive way.
Years ago I hired a young woman while she was in college, and was supportive in little ways like saying when she finished any projects I had ready, she could finish her shift doing school work, etc. I didn't really even consciously do it, but I gave her an example of how you can treat people well at work, but also how she, as a young woman going into engineering, deserves to be treated by any future bosses. But I really didn't do anything big, or grand, or noble. I just treated her fairly and gave a little bit of guidance here or there.
Long and short is a few years later I get invited to her wedding, and it turns out I was the only one outside of the immediate families who was invited. I was very touched, and struck by how sometimes the biggest impacts we make aren't when we wrestle with the rusted switching lever of someone's life tracks, but simply be visible on a different set of them while showing compassion.
And as true as it is that people often need to hit rock bottom to change addiction or other disordered thinking, it is also true that just by being present as a positive force in others lives we can make such a positive impact that we may never know about.
So let's not be too fatalistic, or stuck on predetermination. And yes, please, let's develop our empathy, especially for those who seem least to deserve it. If anything, I hope I re-emphasized that bit.
I think your view is perhaps a little off target. You’re not wrong but you aren’t 100% right either. To be frank so is OP, though I think they are a bit closer.
The thing I have a problem with in your analysis is the characterization that life changing events are rare. In the example of addiction it can be rare, but in other ways it can be extremely common. When I was a teenager I was dealing with an abusive parent and was dealing with severe depression as a result. There were points where I was suicidal. But do you know why I didn’t kill myself? Because I had people to support me. It wasn’t always friends either; sometimes it were complete strangers. One of the times that had the biggest impact was when two other students came out to provide emotional support when I was having a mental breakdown; I don’t know if I ever even saw their faces through the tears.
I suppose what I am trying to say is that people need the right kind of motivation to make changes, and motivation is essentially extrinsic. Self-motivation is just pattern matching for things that provided incentives in the past. This is why addiction is so terrifying and why you often need to hit rock-bottom. You need to overcome the incentive that the addictive substance has become to you and in order to do that you have to experience something that forces you to see the big picture with all the negatives that came with it.
I hope you have already figured out by this point that you and OP are are essentially arguing for the same core things - “be excellent to each other”. But whereas OP is thinking about things holistically - from a collectivist viewpoint - you are arguing from the individualist viewpoint. I’ll reiterate you are not wrong to think this way, and I will even state for the record that it is important to do so. But you shouldn’t only be interested in helping individuals. You should be interested in helping to prevent people from falling into societal deathtraps to begin with, or at least with making it easier to support them and fix their problems. Making the world a better place for the handful of people around you is vital, but if you aren’t improving the world then you are winning battles while losing the war.
I don't know that it is so easy to grade perspectives on such things as "right" or "wrong;" instead, I think it is a matter of whether we share particular views. I also haven't been meaning to advance an argument or an analysis. I've been speaking conversationally, sharing thoughts and opinions, and I don't know that this is a topic that I am looking to argue or debate over since it boils down to personal and subjective experience.
I do feel you are projecting meaning onto my comment that a plain reading of my comments doesn't convey. Or at least, It wasn't my intent. E.g.:
That is quite the opposite of the moral of my comment. Indeed, I said that I have found the most significant impact by simply being there for people—no grand or rare action required. Quoting myself: "But I don't share the viewpoint that peoples trajectories are only changed by rare life altering events. "
Once more, I didn't write my comment as an argument to the OP. I simply shared that their post reminded me of a particular speech, which I hope was taken as a compliment. I also briefly mentioned that one shouldn't take any truism too far.
I would also say that I don't think I'm positing an individualist, bootstrap position. That would be quite contradictory to my whole life's volunteer work of mentoring and advocating for youth. We all need help sometimes.
I'm absolutely baffled at how my comment conveyed anything like the above. We haven't even broached my stance on public policy, which is what would drive the systemic prevention of falling into vicious cycles.
I do appreciate your reply, and hope we are more or less aligned on the "help others" front. But I'm not up for a debate on this topic, and even if I were, we are obviously on significantly different wavelengths in terms of our words and meanings.
I wish you the best, and have a great day!
Oh goodness, I didn’t mean to be argumentative. I just wanted the discussion. I’m sorry if I have aggravated you.
No worries, and no offense taken! I simply wanted to level set my intent. I do thank you for the replies and discussion!
Have a great day!
I didn't get the feeling that the poster was trying to perfectly summarize the original post, but to add greater context and insight to what's a multidimensional topic.
I'm not sure why -- as they said -- you're trying to grade it.
Thank you for putting it that way. You're right. I probably would rephrase what I said to make that clearer.
You have no idea how much I appreciate you sharing this. I totally understand, even though I have never so much as even seen heroin in person. Ever since I realized that food was my heroin, I have seen the connections in just about all of my habits, behaviors, and even patterns of thought.
It’s kind of terrifying because it’s a universal thing but nobody seems to see it, let alone talk about it. I think to an extent it’s something that people tend to have an intuitive grasp of when they grow old, even if they are never able to articulate it. Even more scary is that I think that to an extent my life has been building up to gaining that understanding given my utter distaste for individualism even though I’m a very introverted person and why I feel like smashing capitalism even though I’m a conformist living in the most capitalist society on the planet.
It’s something that I desperately wish that I could explain to people but it’s utterly impossible to explain it to people who do not already understand it.
I don't think this is cynical at all. I think it's true.
I grew up in a pretty rough, high-crime neighborhood. As a child, I saw a lot of people around me struggling with things I never had to struggle with. I was praised for this (or, alternatively, made fun of for being a Goody Two-Shoes), but I always felt awkward about it because, while others were convinced it was voluntary, I knew I had minimal control over it. For example:
• I didn't get into drinking or drugs – because I had sensory issues. I don't drink alcohol because it tastes horrible to me (I equally can't drink coffee, tea, orange juice, carbonated beverages of any type...). And I have bad reactions even to mild drugs, like marijuana, and often opt to undergo procedures without anesthetic because the painkiller is usually worse than the pain. As far as I can tell, this is genetic: alcohol/tobacco/etc. addiction is basically absent in my blood relatives going back generations, alcohol/tobacco/etc. usage is very rare, and lots of my family members are at least as sensitive and prone to nausea as I am (if not more so).
• I didn't get in with the wrong crowd — because I didn't get in with any crowd. I'm way, way too introverted. My standards for friendships and dating are extremely high, not because I'm snobby, but because a given person needs to be totally calm and easygoing and mesh with me just right to not utterly exhaust me. I did not choose to be this introverted; it's one of my major faults that I spent years trying to correct — which only had the effect of making me not only introverted, but depressed as well — until I finally learned to just let it be and work around it.
• I did well in school — because I very likely have undiagnosed ADHD. I am a huge hyperfocuser. Give me some task in a low-distraction environment, like a classroom, and I will lose all sense of time and grind away at it; in the process, I will ignore the bell, forget to eat, miss my school bus, etc., without someone to supervise and make sure I stop when it's time to stop (which is, of course, exactly what teachers do). My teachers and classmates thought I was just being a responsible student., but my parents understood me much better (probably because they have a lot of the same tendencies) and were always working to dissuade me from sinking so many hours into schoolwork lest I lose my childhood. At one point, they were even looking into homeschooling, even though there is no way they could have afforded it.
Interesting insight about how effortless it was for you to walk the straight and narrow despite influences in your community. As somebody who flirted with bad crowds, enjoyed drugs and alcohol and did reasonably bad in primary school, I hadn't ever thought of it that way.
I don't really think of it as "walking the straight and narrow" because I was not ever told to follow this path, I hardly ever saw anyone else following it, and I had no concept of it being a "good" path in any way (I did not even identify it as a path at all; I just saw it as me having some personality quirks). I'm sure that if I'd started wandering down a self-destructive path, my parents would have stepped in and tried to guide me out of it but, as it was, it was actually them who were always pushing me to be more daring (to the extent that they actively introduced me to alcohol, gave me explicit permission to try marijuana and a few other low-risk substances, etc.).
Perhaps in a different environment (for example, in a wealthier community with a more religious bent and more authoritative parents), I would have felt outside pressure to follow the path I have followed, and then I might have grown up believing that I did so solely because I was obediently resisting temptation. This may have led me to be judgmental of other people on different paths.
I have a hypothesis that society's norms and expectations are, to a large extent, determined by the personality quirks of the people who are in charge (or at least their idealized role models) falling victim to the Typical Mind Fallacy. Through a stroke of luck, I happen to have been born in a time and place that rewards people with my personality and tells us that we've made good choices, even though they were barely choices at all.
But if I'd instead been born into a war band a thousand years ago, my generally calm-seeking personality would probably be a sin rather than a virtue — a signal of cowardice. I wouldn't just magically become the kind of person everyone expected me to be; it would be a constant struggle for me to fit into a society that rewards people who seek out intense experiences, and I would probably spend most of my life flailing in despair and wondering why I was so broken.
You know, if you pondered then like you ponder now, it could have been that you were just more comfortable weighing the options rather than acting impulsively.
I was a pretty contemplative kid too and while I missed out on the food that came from impulsive acting (definitely wasn't a ladies man in high school), I'd like to think that it saved me some real hurt and consequences, too.
That was honest writing. Thanks.
I worked with 'kids' (under 25) on the street in a major city for a few years. I can relate much of what you're saying to what I saw in their lives. Sometimes it does feel like predestination that they end up where they are, doing the kinds of things they really never wanted to. Particularly, selling themselves to buy more drugs to dull the pain of their lives. Vicious circle.
And yeah, I also saw how pointless it was to try and help someone up til they hit rock bottom. For the 18th time. Before that it was all talk and good intentions, but it never lasted.
But it did happen. And some of them, like you, are in really good places now, thriving and even coming back to work at the same place they found friendship and support many years ago. That's pretty amazing when it happens.
I have empathy for kids who come up through all that sh*t, being 'thrown away' and end up doing things most people would find reprehensible... to a certain point. My own belief is that there comes a time, often by 30s/early 40s where personal responsibility has to kick in. Up til then a person can claim that they are a product of their past and they really can't help being who they are. But past that point, and its not a fixed date, but past a certain point it's up to that person to recognize and admit that NOT moving out of their crap life is now a choice. They have the maturity and intellect, they have agency and can find resources if they want to move forward, but wanting is fully and solely up to them. AFTER that point if they continue the same lifestyle is where all my empathy drains away. Others manage to care much longer and I have admiration for that kind of dogged loyalty.
Glad you made it to where you are in one piece. That's no small feat.
Your post reminds me of the song "Fast car" by Tracy Chapman, which is one of my favorites. Conscious or not, I think most everyone who grows up in a bad environment makes some kind of decision to try and get out or not. As the lyrics put it "Leave tonight or live and die this way." Usually getting it means some sort of sacrifice or leaving people behind, and it's a hard, hard choice.
I remember being transfixed by those lyrics when I first heard the song because it really crystalized the decisions I had faced and in some ways, were still facing years ago.
Vicious cycles and structural issues aside, you are right that there is a point where many people just accept things how they are, and stay passive within circumstance.
30 to 40 is also a point when we realize that the road ahead isn't going on forever and the road behind us has a behavior and evidence trend line. Perspective is an awesome and very personal phenomenon - it's cool that you helped young people develop theirs.
I think there are things you can do but most people aren't awakened to them until later - often too late. You're running life on the default settings until you realize you don't have to, if you ever realize that at all.
It's a bit like inheriting someone else's game of chess after it's already started. The board is set up and there are a lot of obvious moves you will probably make. There are also some moves you absolutely have to make because your pieces are being pressured and you need to avoid a checkmate.
Some people are born into losing games no matter what. Most have a chance if they can get really clever and see some moves that aren't as obvious. And of course, some people are born into games where victory is theirs in a few easy moves.
It's less about "free will doesn't exist" and more about "How can everyone have free will if we see increased violence in communities where people are exposed to lead?"
Even the ability to "wake up and take life into your own hands" is a skill that is, partially, predetermined by genetic background and circumstances. The capability of simply being aware of your own condition, recognizing what is in your control and what is not, recognizing what you can change and what you cannot, is already something that requires some level of emotional intelligence. This can come naturally to some people due to genetics or be achieved through exposure to that kind of knowledge, whether through a professional, books, or other means.
I don't see why that is sad and depressing. In my view, this is a quintessential cornerstone of the human experience, and it has been much "worse" since the inception of mankind. If anything, we are in the easiest era to take responsibility into our own hands, given the ease of access to information. I mean no offense at all by this, please believe me, but if you think that is a depressing way of putting things, maybe consider the possibility that you lack contact with realities other than yours.
After all, one cannot will themself into having better willpower. The Hindu notion of karma provides a much better accounting for this kind of thing than the Christian "God works in mysterious ways" nonsense.
Fate vs. free will becomes less of a binary choice and more a muddy, mess of genetics, upbringing and options the more people's lives you put under a microscope.
I love the choice narrative and believe it's something that we should all love by, but it's important to remember that some people just have far fewer choices than others.
Reminds me of "Under the knife" by Icon for Hire. The song is about cutting, but I think the sentiment is similar. As much of their work is, the message is generally positive but acknowledging the realities and difficulties of where people are coming from.
Thank you for writing this. I don’t want to go into detail but in my own life I have seen some something relatively “small” by most outside perspectives has had a profound effect on changing the absolute trajectory of a life. Seriously, thank you. From the bottom of my heart.
It sounds like there's "nothing to say" because words are not enough, but is there nothing you can do? Maybe it requires changing their whole environment. But when you say "poor role models," how did you choose them?
I didn't choose them. I didn't understand to choose them until I was older.
I just saw people and behaviors modeled for me and reenacted them because it was what I knew. I think we all do this. But I have better role models now.
That is such an interesting perspective you've presented. I often find myself pondering the morality of individuals like psychopaths. It leads me to consider whether all toxic behaviors, regardless of whether they are actually mentally-ill, can be rationalized and perhaps even empathized with. For instance, if someone with a favorable upbringing still displays negative traits as an adult, could it be attributed to genetic predispositions influencing egotism, narcissism, or underlying psychiatric disorders? Conversely, if someone possesses genes conducive to kindness and exhibits toxic traits, might it be due to a challenging upbringing or past traumas?
This is all speculative, as I believe science hasn't definitively answered these questions. While there are correlations between certain gene expressions and behavioral traits, such as egotism, I recognize the limitations in drawing concrete conclusions. Nevertheless, I do believe in the potential for us to influence our behaviors to some extent through our own free will. This realization would come upon us through academic study in fields like behavioral genetics and philosophy, or through personal experiences and insights. Sadly, even the capability of recognizing this pattern would be something also related to genetics or circumstance.
I think true liberation from societal, natural, and chance-driven constraints only comes when we accept this realization, albeit partially. However, I acknowledge that my belief in free will could be a protective mechanism to preserve my own sense of autonomy.
Agreed. I always ask myself, what is the morality of being angry with psychopaths? I understand the urge to be angry with them - it's visceral and instinctual. But it's not really their fault is it? If you could talk to some tabula rasa version of that person before they were born, they probably would not choose to live a life of psychopathic tendencies and imprisonment. They probably wouldn't want to be the bad guy who inflicts pain on themselves and others. But they were born or molded into something sick and awful.
I tend to see the situations and systems as evil, and the perpetrator of wrongdoing as another kind of victim. Whether that system is biology or a giant corporation polluting the water, I usually feel there is a cause for all behaviors and the causes are often beyond us.
Thank you for this thread.
I come from a culture where the family unit is valued and emphasized a lot. So, when you have problems with your family, especially with the elder members like parents and grandparents, people approach it as if you have a duty to forgive or tolerate them. Or that the said family members can't be that bad. You don't, and they can be. The most abusive relationships in the world are usually part of the family unit, and you have every right to feel what you feel. And if that's what you want, you can cut them off, emotionally or completely.
This is a massive gripe I have, because other people have the gall to shame you for being "selfish" or "immature", but you're only doing what's right for yourself. Growing up, I've been shamed and blamed a lot in this way, which brings me to the next topic.
Altruism isn't necessarily a positive thing. One of my parents, whom I depended on growing up, was groomed to be altruistic to a fault. Their mother was a narcissist, and they groomed my parent to be a slave to them. The said parent neglected themselves and me, to serve them. I grew up without an adult in the house, sometimes quite literally not dropping by for months, because the said parent was busy serving their parents.
In the same vein, despite all the talk about its value, love isn't necessarily a good thing either. You can very much love people who are bad for you, and many many people do. Here's a passage I like about this.
Other than the self-hating undertones for feeling the "wrong kind of love", I very much agree with the premise. My parent takes pride in being full of love, but I see a desparate, corrosive kind of love, that originates from the void of being emotionally neglected, not emotional strength. Love isn't necessarily a good thing, not all versions of it.
In this dysfunctional environment, I myself growing up emotionally neglected, I learned to neglect my own emotions in the name of "something greater", that is altruistic or "higher" goals. Such was the way of my family, but I've been learning to listen to myself more, and only recently realized to a fuller extent that I was very much not selfish growing up. I was only doing things what a regular kid was supposed to do.
There's a lot of buzz in the culture about the importance of being altruistic and working for a greater goal. They don't speak to me much anymore, because all my life, I struggled to be an individual with his own feelings, wants, and needs. So, instead, here's an excerpt that speaks to me much more. It's from the same article from the quote above.
I feel all of these words. It's an affirmation of the experience I've had. But I feel like this doesn't want to be heard among certain circles. There's a lot of religious, quasi-religious, and ideological discussions about selfishness, love, altruism. None of them seem to consider what I've experienced, and to me, most of them seem like they despise expressions of individuality.
Furthermore, I feel like my own suffering isn't relevant for grand narratives. I'm a male, and the abuser parent I talked about is my mother. This abuse wasn't born out of a financial hardship or identity discrimination either. So, there is no grand narrative to affirm my pain. In the grand scheme of things, no politician, no activist, and almost no intellectual seems to care. Only mental health professionals seem to care, but they are paid to do so. It's not that they don't deserve a good life, but they are very expensive, and not enough by themselves. There's very much a void in society about this. For example, women's or workers' struggle gets -rightfully- a lot of support from a wide variety of people, and I wish there was a wider movement that recognized and emphasized my own too. The lack of such makes me feel more isolated. It's as if only I and a few others care. Not a good feeling, and it's a further layer of burden to shoulder.
Citation
Thanks a lot for this comment, really resonated with me a lot.
There were different circumstances but the part about the altruistic parent is spot on for me. My father has a reputation as always being helpful (altruistic), but when people talk about him in that way, all I want to say is how he has only ever been unhelpful to me. He only ever helped me with anything if he had something to gain for himself.
I believe that standing to gain things is why he only ever helped anyone else as well. It was never true altruism when in return for helping his friends, he could then guilt them into buying him coffee or whatever. He helped my cousin out by working on his apartment for example. But when he asked if he could come for dinner, and my cousin didn't do it, my father very directly told me that he now knows my cousin on a deeper level - as in, since my father thought him ungrateful, he is a bad person (all this not 6 months after my uncle died).
It's not helpfulness/altruism when you expect something back. It's just a transaction at that point and it really bugs me that he has this reputation when he was such an emotionally neglectful parent. He is also outright manipulative which has resulted in what you describe in the latter half of your comment about becoming groomed to be unselfish. I put myself aside so many times to do what he wanted to do. He was always disinterested in me and I got nothing in return - in fact, whenever he did me a favour, he would make sure I knew how big of a deal it was. It was always inferred that I now owe him. I haven't spoken to him for 6 months and it is a huge weight off my chest.
I for one do recognize and empathize with your struggle of this. Emotional neglect is definitely not talked about enough. It becomes invisible when in wider society it's talked about as a given that you need to be tolerant of your parents because they raised you and fed you and did so much for you! Yeah, no. Food and shelter isn't even the bare minimum in a middle class family in the western world.
We are taught to be thankful and forgiving to our parents, but the extent of it is never really taught. So we suffer under it because we don't know about boundaries until it's too late, until the line has already been crossed countless times. So yeah, hence paying therapists to care... Sorry, rambling a bit. Thanks again for your comment - very insightful and it evidently made me reflect a lot.
Thank you. I recognize and empathize with your struggle as well. Your father sounds a bit like my grandmother, in the sense that they are both extremely self-serving.
Emotional neglect is an extremely powerful force in many people's lives. I've started reading "Running on Empty: Overcome Your Childhood Emotional Neglect" recently, and found it to be an extremely helpful book so far. It was recommended to a friend of mine by their therapist, who then recommended it to me. This phenomenon, emotional neglect, explains so many things I've experienced in my life.
My experience of emotional neglect due to toxic altruism was somewhat different. It's not that my parent wasn't altruistic, but mainly that they neglected what truly mattered, themselves and people who actually depended on them, in order to get approval and love from people who abuse them. They chose their abuser(s) over me, and then blamed me - a kid- for not helping them and slaving away together with them. It's similar to what Nietzsche called slave morality. They internalized their own victimization, called it a virtue, and then imposed it upon others. They preached of love and tolerance, but had extreme amonts of resentment, which occasionally surfaced in random bouts of extreme anger and hatred. It's very par for the course. Anyone who is subjected to that much abuse is bound to have a lot of negative emotions. Not that it's shameful or wrong, but not being honest and accepting with those emotions leads to a lot of problems, both for the person and people around them.
I guess abuse comes in many forms. And there's so much unnecessary, even harmful moralizing and repression of "negative" feelings and thoughts around these issues.
I didn't grow up in that kind of family centric culture, but when it comes to estrangement from a parent it doesn't matter. The assumption that all parents love their children and want what's best for them is false. I honestly wish I could also have that viewpoint, but I can't.
A person doesn't just wake up one day and become estranged from a parent out of spite. There are social and family consequences to taking such an extreme step, especially if you live in or grew up in a small town.
No, your kids aren't going to "do this to you" because you didn't buy them enough ice cream or a car. When did this become about you?
No, I can't "just forgive" them. Do you honestly think I haven't tried to do that hundreds of times already? What forgiveness means to an abuser is permission to do it again. How many times do I need to go through that to meet your standards of trying enough times? And why is this all on me, anyway?
This is an action someone takes to protect themself. Guilting a person for being driven this far is not a good deed.
I guess it goes to say that parents can be damaged too. The feeling that you're not appreciated can be a bottomless pit that always needs filling for those who weren't recognized en ok ygh by their own parents.
It's hard for those of us trying to work with damaged people who are supposed to be our role models, and especially when we're still growing.
My dad's father was killed when he was 10 (on his birthday no less) and it left some pretty big gaps in his ability to get attached, show interest in others and (likely) feel like people were interested in who he is. It's a bottomless pit of negative created by a lifetime of bad habits and reinforcement - something that I think it's important for we as kids to see, understand and manage, but not take responsibility for or even tango with if we can avoid it.
As hard as it is to do, I think it's important for kids looking for qualities that their parents don't have to get their emotional needs met elsewhere.
This comment resonated a lot with me too. My family was definitely on this axis, and I don't think I'll ever be able to consume tales of family reconciliation in the manner they're often intended to be. I'm pretty sure my selfishness saved me; if I hadn't been selfish and ruthless enough, I'd still have them in my life, generating suffering.
Please don't feel too bad about paying someone (e.g. a good therapist) to care about you. I have maybe the best, most caring partner in the world and that hasn't stopped me from paying for therapy. I think of it like paying for a hairdresser, only way more essential since most people don't spontaneously know how to deal with uncomfortable emotions or past trauma. Hell, even if you do know how best to do it, sometimes your life ship runs into a rock and being able to talk it out with someone who isn't stuck on the ship with you can really help.
I am fully capable of laying my hand on a hot stove and burning my hand, there is nothing physically wrong with my body that would keep me from doing it. But, if I were to walk into my kitchen right now, turn on a burner, and attempt to, I'd find myself inhibited by an invisible force. Something inside my body wouldn't want me to do it, despite my every intention of doing it.
This is life with executive dysfunction is like. The hidden bureaucracy inside my brain that exchanges chemicals for tasks, refuses to release the required chemicals for me to do tasks I would like to do, tasks I need to do. It doesn't matter that I'm fully capable of doing the task, whatever it may be, if my brain has identified that there is no positive chemical to be received for doing the task or that the amount of chemicals my brain will get compared to the difficulty of the task, it will just withhold them.
This is why all the structure in the world, all the planners, apps, coaches, and self-help, cannot compel me to do something on time or do something "right." My brain, quite literally, refuses to allow me. I feel this frustration, just like those around me who are angry with me. I am standing with my hand over the stove, it's right there, all I'd have to do is push my hand down, it's just a few inches away, but my brain won't let it happen. It feels like being held hostage.
And then the guilt and depression because you're struggling to do simple things no one else bats an eye at.
I'm 1 day shy of brushing my teeth every day this week. Tomorrow I celebrate! I'm so proud! And then I think, "What a stupid thing to be proud of. I'm not 2 years old." I have to remind myself my brain is different and I struggle with things others don't struggle with. It's ok to be proud of what other people might find easy.
I'm so very thankful that my parents instilled in me a very positive inner voice, so I don't have to struggle with the negative self talk, but my wife has Autism HD and this is a constant battle for her.
I'm always internally laughing/crying when I sit at my computer on a day off and I'm just staring at the screen for an hour or two, not opening any games, just scanning the screen and trying to figure out which one my brain will give me a lil jolt to double click. But yeah, it's just that I don't like doing hard stuff. lol
Testosterone.
Obviously most men will know this all too well, but testosterone is so fucking obnoxiously dominating of your life and you just....have to get used to it/learn to deal with it over time, until you get too old or need to take it just to avoid the negative effects of it being too low.
It's really difficult to describe to people, as I don't think even amongst men that levels or rather sensitivity is the same, but for me it's really, really pervasive, and I hit puberty around 12, I'm 34 now and not really for a moment has it ever abated. So much of my personality seems shaped by it, I'm extremely argumentative, disagreeable, if I get really into a competition, doesn't matter if it's a sport, or a game, if I become invested I get so competitive that it feels like my blood is boiling. I can play chess and feel my temperature go up considerably the more heated I get. Over time you learn to stop yourself, not to kneejerk argue with people, try to be more agreeable to get by. But it's tough, and it never really goes away, that's not even including the libido aspects that can be massively disruptive.
The amount of sympathy I have for trans men when they start T is immeasurable, because honest to god, it's not fun. Sex hormones are one of the worst double edged swords humans have, damned if you do (because testosterone will eventually kill you) damned if you don't (you'll have no energy or libido, lose strength etc), with estrogen you deal with periods, cramps, mood swings, then menopause comes and you get bone loss, hot flashes, it's like neither gender can win for losing.
That's really rough, I'm sorry you're having a hard time of it. And yes, especially for people using HRT I feel for them with the rapid changes to their mind and body which I'm sure are frightening.
I'm curious if you have abnormal testosterone levels. I had myself tested (no particular reason, was just curious) and I was smack dab in the middle of the normal range. I can get loud and competitive - I'm sure some of my behavior can be attributed to testosterone. But I don't think I can relate to any of your struggles. Maybe that's down to chemical differences between us. Or maybe it's down to how each of us is living and there would be changes you could make to live easier.
I've never had it tested, I've fairly confident it's not low, but it's probably within range, I would assume. All my other health metrics are fine, I have thought about testing it just for fun, maybe I'll get around to it at some point. It might be worth knowing. I do have a weirdly high hematocrit/hemoglobin, that I've had my whole life despite living at sea level, so that could also be accounting for some of my body temperature issues.
Are you sure this is really a testosterone thing you're describing? I can relate to some parts, but other parts don't really sound relatable at all. I honestly felt very confused when you wrote "Obviously most men will know this all too well."
I think so, yeah, I mean don't get me wrong, I'm a well adjusted, emotionally mature person. But that took a lot of time, and it 100% coincided to when I hit puberty. And again, if you listen to trans men talk about their experience when they are first starting T, it felt like "Ah they get me" ya know?
I'm not a doctor, but plenty of mental health issues can surface in teenage years. It might be worth exploring that. (And also testing your T levels, because we have no idea if you're right either.)
If you haven't yet I would recommend trying plain old cognitive behavioral therapy. And getting your testosterone level tested will be a useful metric to have going into that conversation.
That's not something I can relate.
I always check my test when doing annual checkups just because and I am in the normal range. I don't have any of those traits at all. When I was a teen I could get really competitive, but I was a really insecure teen.
I'm 38 now and feel the same as always after my teenage years. I don't care about winning at all.
I am happy you are doing well, but I feel you strengthened OP's sentiment that T is not understood by society.
OP said they believe they are experiencing the effects of it worse than most other men, but nevertheless argues sex hormones are double edged swords that wholly affect you despite their purpose. I understand you do not relate, but you're seemimgly implying you are an exception. In your teenage years, you mentioned being super competitive yet insecure... but did you consider that both insecurity and hormonal/genetic predisposition can explain your teenage behaviour? It seems to be common sense that puberty is a period where hormones are at their most affective.
If there is anything I took from psychology class, personal health is multidimensional — physical and social health, as well as mental, behavioural, psychological, and envrionmental are interdependent and affect you in various ways at any time. You not caring about winning is irrelevant in that you not having these hyperactive traits does not necessarily mean you are in the clear. How your body works on and with testosterone is different from OP's, but the extreme effects of it CAN still affect most men, if not every man. The point was never about you not relating, the point is more among the likes of OP's experience being indicative of how your hormones can act against you.
Probably. I think I was insecure mostly due to the way I was raised by my parents really. They sheltered and spoiled the hell out of me. So much that I ended up falling victim of the "pickup artists" craze back in the days which culminated in the incel/red pill culture today.
Luckily I was able to get out of it.
But yes, I agree with you and I missed OP's point.
Since I never really struggled with my T, I felt like I saw the effects that driving with it had on people around me. But wow, I have a few men in my life who are the gruff "I am who I am" manly men and it seems exhausting to be them. They've let their T rage and run things for so long, they seek no person growth, they seek no compromise, they seek no gentleness, I just kind of feel bad for them.
As someone with an invisible disability who looks young (I'm in my 30s but look younger), I wish that more people would understand just how much bullshit you have to go through just to get accommodations necessary because you "don't look" disabled. And, when you do "show" your disability (Like when I use my cane for mobility support), because I look so young, I get treated horribly for it, like I'm faking the disability. It was also only recently, that I had a doctor believe me about the pain I experience to the point that even getting out of bed is painful most of the time.
I got a diagnosis in January after 10+ years fighting doctors and my insurance, and it's helped so much with access to medications, therapy, and accommodations, but there's still a ways to go, and with disability, it's not like I'll be cured.
That's another thing I wish people were more understanding of: how doctors just dismiss women's pain until they're past the point of correcting for the pain and will just have permanent damage.
I really empathize with your struggle of this. I'm glad you recently got it on paper and access to help!
I felt this when I broke my foot 2 years ago. I have no chronic disabilities, and despite not needing crutches, I still couldn't walk right for about a month. I had an old man scowl at me and mutter insensitive things in an elevator about people "needing" to use it, and that most people should use the stairs. I assume he didn't see my limp before stepping into it but I exaggerated it for effect when going out of it.. I hope he felt bad lol
On another note, there's an initiative in Denmark for awareness of invisible disabilities. It's called solsikkesnoren, and is a lanyard with sunflowers on it that signals to people that you might need extra space, time, or help. So that's pretty neat I think
That is super neat! I would just worry that it would also be used as a way to discriminate against people with invisible disabilities.
100% that last sentence. My neighbor's daughter nearly died from a ruptured appendix when the doctor dismissed it as period cramps. Thankfully her family was persistent and took her to the ER and she was able to pull through, but it should not have come to that.
I feel I can dip my toes into the topic by saying that as a transgender person, living a big part of your life without having the knowledge of some other version inside you and withholding yourself that discovery by telling yourself lies or not acting on these signs or those signs not being confirmed by your close social circle is lonely. Very lonely.
As has been mentioned in some comments in this thread, living life on autopilot without the tools or skills to break away from a certain path (through self-discovery) is sullen, especially if you're being told you're wasting talent and not making the most out of life. During my life I have been on autopilot nearly exclusively and have wished to just to be a ghost, merely observing and taking in all these wonderful lives that other people do actually live. What a wonderful coincidence that during me growing up the internet became a thing and social media really gaining traction later on. I thrived on the web and could soak up so many through games, stories, movies, series and anime.
Yet there was that one problem. The person who was doing all this still hadn't noticed that they too, could live a life like "any other person". Years of escapism and failed studies later with no diploma or certification to show for any of the things I've done, I'm struggling to figure out who that person is, who I am, and what I am to become.
I totally understand what you mean about the loneliness. I may not have had it to the extent you did but when I grew up and realized I was gay I was filled with dread because I realized I would never have a good marriage with a wife and I would die never experiencing true happiness. When you deny who you are, you are also denying everyone else from knowing who you are and relationships are not fulfilling. This experience is probably why I resonate so much with existentialism.
This is something that pales in comparison to the other stories, but I wanted to share it anyways: fobias.
I have always had a fear of dogs. When I was younger it had quite a big impact on my life: I was nervous going on a walk in a forest or going to a beach because there was a good chance of dogs running around there. I couldn't go to some kids homes because they had dogs.
People just don't understand fear. That's because it is irrational by definition. I also understand that dogs won't hurt me, but that's not how fears work. The fact that people don't understand is probably a bigger problem than the fear itself. When I ask people to put their dog on a leish or put them in another room, they take it personally:"My dog doesn't [bark, bite jump]" or they ridicule my fobia:"It's such a small dog". If they don't ridicule it or take it personally, they will just forget that I have a fobia because for them, a dog is such a normal part of life they literally cannot understand that someone would be frightened of it.
This is why, when I ask for the dog to be put in a bench/other room, someone there (be it family, guests) would let the dog escape. When I say the dog escapes every time, I do mean every time. I know of one single home where I know they will truly understand and I have tried going to people with dogs tens of times.
I have done therapy for this and it's at a point where dogs in public will only make me nervous when running around. I can even stay in the same room as a dog now with one exception: barking. That still triggers a fight or flight response. The sad part of that means that now I am nervous because I am anticipating a bark.
Fully agree with you. The core issue is people not making an effort to respect and understand dogs.
I’ll share from a perspective that isn’t often brought up in these types of online spaces. I consider myself a Christian person and attend church, follow certain principles, etc. I just want to say that I’m sick of all the hate in the world directed both at and by religious people. I grew up religious and have had most of my family stop practicing religion for various reasons, though I remain faithful. I am also lucky to have had a very loving upbringing by my parents and didn’t suffer any shaming, poor treatment, or mental, emotional, or verbal abuse like I read so often when someone says they were brought up religious. That’s another subject I suppose, but going back to my family: regardless of each individual’s belief or lack thereof, we still have very good relationships and love and accept each other.
Part of being a Christian is striving to understand others and to be able to empathize even when we disagree. But it also isn’t unfair to expect some empathy and understanding in return. It truly pains me to see religion simultaneously weaponized and attacked more and more in the modern world. I choose to believe that life has meaning and we’re not all destined for an empty void of non-existence, so why should I be constantly belittled (albeit indirectly) every time religion or spirituality enters the online discourse? To give additional perspective, I work in healthcare as a profession and have seen more death than most and as a result truly hope for something better after this life. At the risk of this sounding like “Can’t we all just get along?” I’ll stop here for now but I wanted to get that out.
I think that unfortunately, these go hand in hand. As an atheist*, it seems to me that a lot of religions these days are just about a) being right and b) hating on everyone who is not like you. What you said about being a Christian is super nice, but you have to admit that in general, both IRL and online, this is not what Christianity these days seems to be about. I hate to say it, but for a lot of people, being religious just means being a bigot.
That said, I do agree that people should keep it in mind that just because someone is religious, it doesn't mean that they're the same as every other religious person, or that they support people of the same faith who do/say terrible things.
* I was raised atheist in a mostly Catholic country, and while I think the Catholic Church is a travesty, I do believe Jesus had the right idea about loving your fellow man, not hating on those different than yourself, being tolerant, helping the sick and the poor, and not amassing large fortunes.