Vertical integration. High performance and good battery life. They pay a lot of attention to the peripherals - trackpad, keyboard, screen. They don't feel cheap, even when they're $600. I would...
Vertical integration. High performance and good battery life. They pay a lot of attention to the peripherals - trackpad, keyboard, screen. They don't feel cheap, even when they're $600. I would absolutely prefer to be running Debian but still need the computer to be well made. I'm considering the Framework Pro later in the year depending on how the M6 redesign works out.
It's interesting that (in general, not specific to your reply) people seem to praise Apple's vertical integration, and belittle everyone else's. When Apple forces their users into their ecosystem,...
It's interesting that (in general, not specific to your reply) people seem to praise Apple's vertical integration, and belittle everyone else's. When Apple forces their users into their ecosystem, it's commonly spoken of as positive, but if Google, Microsoft, or anyone else does, it's not.
I guess when you control all the hardware so there's not a "cheap version" vendor selling it, then it's easier to control the narrative and come across as more premium hardware. There are high and low performing devices running everywhere else, but only Apple hardware can run Apple stuff.
Personally, I find more value in things like right-to-repair and open standard protocols. If Apple ever decides to get on board with that, and stop bullying non apple users with their marketing and lawyers, maybe I'll try them out.
I think there’s an uncanny valley on the software integration that Apple is uniquely on the far side of. But I didn’t just mean iPhone+Mac vertical integration. I also mean they make their own...
I think there’s an uncanny valley on the software integration that Apple is uniquely on the far side of. But I didn’t just mean iPhone+Mac vertical integration. I also mean they make their own track pads, SoCs, etc and leverage this degree of control to optimize battery life and the overall user experience.
You're not wrong at all. It's the odd, longstanding product cult where users bought in at a time when Apple did design software better, it was easier to link your iPod or they had advantages in...
You're not wrong at all.
It's the odd, longstanding product cult where users bought in at a time when Apple did design software better, it was easier to link your iPod or they had advantages in the security front.
Now, they're all still there, and loving the company as if it still was still in a league of its own with all of the above, but realistically, it just has them so far in the garden that they'll never leave.
I only recently got into the ecosystem. I’m pretty disappointed with MacOS. WatchOS as well but that’s not really a necessity. Debian, and similarly well ran distros, are a big upgrade for me and...
I only recently got into the ecosystem. I’m pretty disappointed with MacOS. WatchOS as well but that’s not really a necessity. Debian, and similarly well ran distros, are a big upgrade for me and I’m looking for a way to jump ship. But I don’t see a definitively better alternative to iOS.
For what it's worth I agree with you. I think it's really interesting to read these threads about OOS, rights to privacy and other freedoms also mixed in with "guys I just love my IPhone". I don't...
For what it's worth I agree with you. I think it's really interesting to read these threads about OOS, rights to privacy and other freedoms also mixed in with "guys I just love my IPhone".
I don't disagree the hardware is excellent and you get great value for money. But you do buy into a walled garden and a ecosystem.
I used to use Dark Skies on my Android phone for years and it was by far the best weather app, I told a lot of friends and family to try it too and they liked it. Then Apple bought them put and integrated it into Apple weather, so fuck all of us I guess. I was even paying a subscription I liked it so much.
I ended up getting a little MacBook for my mom because she needed a new computer (Walmart had a deal on prior-Gen M1 models). It just works. The iPhones exchange data with it without hassle, it...
I ended up getting a little MacBook for my mom because she needed a new computer (Walmart had a deal on prior-Gen M1 models). It just works. The iPhones exchange data with it without hassle, it prints without hassle, it’s fast. It’s very good for a folks who want something more than a Chromebook, but don’t want to deal with Windows BS (I have a Linux desktop for gaming, so when I use her laptop it’s only for small stuff).
Non-Apple laptops have two major issues: bloatware and Windows. You can spend $3,000 on a Windows laptop and still have it preloaded with all sorts of junk trying to sell you antivirus or various...
Non-Apple laptops have two major issues: bloatware and Windows.
You can spend $3,000 on a Windows laptop and still have it preloaded with all sorts of junk trying to sell you antivirus or various other services.
Windows 11 is, in my experience so far, just worse compared to Windows 10.
The experience with a brand new Apple laptop is wildly different and feels like a premium experience.
You can also spend $500 on a laptop and have none of that. I don't think your argument stands on that point. Bloatware and extras largely depends on your vendor and OS version. When I bought my...
You can spend $3,000 on a Windows laptop and still have it preloaded with all sorts of junk trying to sell you antivirus or various other services.
You can also spend $500 on a laptop and have none of that. I don't think your argument stands on that point. Bloatware and extras largely depends on your vendor and OS version. When I bought my own Windows 11 license and installed the OS myself on my built PC, I didn't have anything trying to sell me antivirus or other services. Beyond that, things baked into the OS are just options to be turned off. Like Xbox game bar for Windows, or the iWork suite for Mac.
Are we at the point yet where we've all acknowledged the steaming cesspool that windows has become? Obviously not. Saying it as someone that would have NEVER expected to willingly prefer a Mac or...
Are we at the point yet where we've all acknowledged the steaming cesspool that windows has become? Obviously not. Saying it as someone that would have NEVER expected to willingly prefer a Mac or OS X back when I was forced onto my first Apple device back in ~2011.
If apple forcefully reclaimed the enthusiast market by making the hardware repairable, that would be an unstoppable juggernaut.
Of course, all real software (he says, tongue in cheek) runs on Linux. Not even a competition. Just reality.
Honestly, glad to see Apple rewarding by growing market share. I keep yearly or so tabs on the market of available laptop hardware. As far as I can tell ... No one is close yet.
Apple provides self repair kits for their devices. Ones that are more difficult to repair these days are less because of bespoke screws and more because of the origami required to put a lot of...
If apple forcefully reclaimed the enthusiast market by making the hardware repairable, that would be an unstoppable juggernaut.
Apple provides self repair kits for their devices. Ones that are more difficult to repair these days are less because of bespoke screws and more because of the origami required to put a lot of computer in a handheld device. Notably the new $600 MacBook driving this article is quite repairable.
It's more of a swing back to their roots, too. Macs in the 2005-2012 range were very easy to work on. My 2008 MacBook had an intentionally user-serviceable battery, RAM and HDD. You just turned a...
It's more of a swing back to their roots, too. Macs in the 2005-2012 range were very easy to work on.
My 2008 MacBook had an intentionally user-serviceable battery, RAM and HDD. You just turned a coin in a slot and the battery would come off the bottom. Then two screws would remove a panel that let you slide the RAM and HDD out, without even taking the whole bottom off.
The 2011 was fairly doable too. A few philips (autocorrect says "philosopher's") screws to take the bottom off and you could easily get at all of those parts.
True story! And that's what I'm essentially referencing, honestly. They have a LONG way to go. Extensible GPUs, replaceable RAM and NVMe (or equivalent). They have a lot of work to do, and a lot...
True story! And that's what I'm essentially referencing, honestly. They have a LONG way to go. Extensible GPUs, replaceable RAM and NVMe (or equivalent). They have a lot of work to do, and a lot of trust to rebuild.
I'm confident the EU can help keep them on the open standards path, as well.
Most of that isn't Apple artificially doing anything, just design choices. You're not going to be able to replace RAM when it's literally on the SoC package. The latter is required for the GPU,...
Most of that isn't Apple artificially doing anything, just design choices. You're not going to be able to replace RAM when it's literally on the SoC package. The latter is required for the GPU, which needs lower latency than socketed DDR5 can have. Similarly, the system is really built around close integration between the integrated GPU and CPU.
The only thing that Apple could do better really is that to have non-soldered SSDs, although even then the SoC is actually the memory controller instead of having a discrete memory controller like consumer SSDs.
They started with the soldered SSDs, also, for performance reasons. They were doing PCIe bus SSDs before the industry landed on the m.2 form factor. And since they buy tons of raw flash chips...
They started with the soldered SSDs, also, for performance reasons. They were doing PCIe bus SSDs before the industry landed on the m.2 form factor. And since they buy tons of raw flash chips already for phones, designing their own controller instead of buying premade units made sense. (I think they've moved back to socketing on at least some models now.)
DDR6 is only now starting to address the RAM socketing issue, years later.
Apple's pushing boundaries consistently, not making commodity hardware. They're the last standing specialty Unix workstation manufacturer, like SGI or Sun, not Dell.
Time will tell...there's some possibility that we'll just start seeing all RAM being soldered next to the CPU going forward. DDR6 isn't going to be the same style of DIMM socket anymore. It might...
Time will tell...there's some possibility that we'll just start seeing all RAM being soldered next to the CPU going forward.
DDR6 isn't going to be the same style of DIMM socket anymore. It might be a CAMM2 form factor, which is basically a daughter board that screws down next to the CPU (kind of like m.2 SSDs) or it might end up just being the end of sockets for RAM.
Oh wow, I did a quick search on what it would mean to replace soldered RAM and it sounded like a very tricky job, with some pretty deep potential pits to fall down. Thanks for the link about that...
Oh wow, I did a quick search on what it would mean to replace soldered RAM and it sounded like a very tricky job, with some pretty deep potential pits to fall down. Thanks for the link about that potential form factor, that was interesting. I hope it does end up as a replaceable component generally.
I agree! Doesn't mean I'm happy with that set of trends in mobile computing. I make the evaluation that it's an acceptable set of compromises and find myself willing to buy apple laptop hardware....
I agree! Doesn't mean I'm happy with that set of trends in mobile computing. I make the evaluation that it's an acceptable set of compromises and find myself willing to buy apple laptop hardware.
Just hoping we can keep the desktop modality alive during my lifetime.
I look at my Mac Studio as a bad dollar-vote, whereas my many Linux-based desktop builds to be excellent dollar-votes.
What's even more stark is the raw numbers: every laptop manufacturer is estimated to have a YoY dip, while Apple has a 21% increase from 23m to 28m.
Hopefully competitors start to learn from Apple. I forsee consolidation of the PC manufacturer market before then.
How do you mean? Everything I want is the opposite of Apple's pro-bullying and walled garden corporate mentality.
Vertical integration. High performance and good battery life. They pay a lot of attention to the peripherals - trackpad, keyboard, screen. They don't feel cheap, even when they're $600. I would absolutely prefer to be running Debian but still need the computer to be well made. I'm considering the Framework Pro later in the year depending on how the M6 redesign works out.
It's interesting that (in general, not specific to your reply) people seem to praise Apple's vertical integration, and belittle everyone else's. When Apple forces their users into their ecosystem, it's commonly spoken of as positive, but if Google, Microsoft, or anyone else does, it's not.
I guess when you control all the hardware so there's not a "cheap version" vendor selling it, then it's easier to control the narrative and come across as more premium hardware. There are high and low performing devices running everywhere else, but only Apple hardware can run Apple stuff.
Personally, I find more value in things like right-to-repair and open standard protocols. If Apple ever decides to get on board with that, and stop bullying non apple users with their marketing and lawyers, maybe I'll try them out.
I think there’s an uncanny valley on the software integration that Apple is uniquely on the far side of. But I didn’t just mean iPhone+Mac vertical integration. I also mean they make their own track pads, SoCs, etc and leverage this degree of control to optimize battery life and the overall user experience.
You're not wrong at all.
It's the odd, longstanding product cult where users bought in at a time when Apple did design software better, it was easier to link your iPod or they had advantages in the security front.
Now, they're all still there, and loving the company as if it still was still in a league of its own with all of the above, but realistically, it just has them so far in the garden that they'll never leave.
I only recently got into the ecosystem. I’m pretty disappointed with MacOS. WatchOS as well but that’s not really a necessity. Debian, and similarly well ran distros, are a big upgrade for me and I’m looking for a way to jump ship. But I don’t see a definitively better alternative to iOS.
For what it's worth I agree with you. I think it's really interesting to read these threads about OOS, rights to privacy and other freedoms also mixed in with "guys I just love my IPhone".
I don't disagree the hardware is excellent and you get great value for money. But you do buy into a walled garden and a ecosystem.
I used to use Dark Skies on my Android phone for years and it was by far the best weather app, I told a lot of friends and family to try it too and they liked it. Then Apple bought them put and integrated it into Apple weather, so fuck all of us I guess. I was even paying a subscription I liked it so much.
I ended up getting a little MacBook for my mom because she needed a new computer (Walmart had a deal on prior-Gen M1 models). It just works. The iPhones exchange data with it without hassle, it prints without hassle, it’s fast. It’s very good for a folks who want something more than a Chromebook, but don’t want to deal with Windows BS (I have a Linux desktop for gaming, so when I use her laptop it’s only for small stuff).
Non-Apple laptops have two major issues: bloatware and Windows.
You can spend $3,000 on a Windows laptop and still have it preloaded with all sorts of junk trying to sell you antivirus or various other services.
Windows 11 is, in my experience so far, just worse compared to Windows 10.
The experience with a brand new Apple laptop is wildly different and feels like a premium experience.
You can also spend $500 on a laptop and have none of that. I don't think your argument stands on that point. Bloatware and extras largely depends on your vendor and OS version. When I bought my own Windows 11 license and installed the OS myself on my built PC, I didn't have anything trying to sell me antivirus or other services. Beyond that, things baked into the OS are just options to be turned off. Like Xbox game bar for Windows, or the iWork suite for Mac.
Are we at the point yet where we've all acknowledged the steaming cesspool that windows has become? Obviously not. Saying it as someone that would have NEVER expected to willingly prefer a Mac or OS X back when I was forced onto my first Apple device back in ~2011.
If apple forcefully reclaimed the enthusiast market by making the hardware repairable, that would be an unstoppable juggernaut.
Of course, all real software (he says, tongue in cheek) runs on Linux. Not even a competition. Just reality.
Honestly, glad to see Apple rewarding by growing market share. I keep yearly or so tabs on the market of available laptop hardware. As far as I can tell ... No one is close yet.
Apple provides self repair kits for their devices. Ones that are more difficult to repair these days are less because of bespoke screws and more because of the origami required to put a lot of computer in a handheld device. Notably the new $600 MacBook driving this article is quite repairable.
It's more of a swing back to their roots, too. Macs in the 2005-2012 range were very easy to work on.
My 2008 MacBook had an intentionally user-serviceable battery, RAM and HDD. You just turned a coin in a slot and the battery would come off the bottom. Then two screws would remove a panel that let you slide the RAM and HDD out, without even taking the whole bottom off.
The 2011 was fairly doable too. A few philips (autocorrect says "philosopher's") screws to take the bottom off and you could easily get at all of those parts.
True story! And that's what I'm essentially referencing, honestly. They have a LONG way to go. Extensible GPUs, replaceable RAM and NVMe (or equivalent). They have a lot of work to do, and a lot of trust to rebuild.
I'm confident the EU can help keep them on the open standards path, as well.
Most of that isn't Apple artificially doing anything, just design choices. You're not going to be able to replace RAM when it's literally on the SoC package. The latter is required for the GPU, which needs lower latency than socketed DDR5 can have. Similarly, the system is really built around close integration between the integrated GPU and CPU.
The only thing that Apple could do better really is that to have non-soldered SSDs, although even then the SoC is actually the memory controller instead of having a discrete memory controller like consumer SSDs.
They started with the soldered SSDs, also, for performance reasons. They were doing PCIe bus SSDs before the industry landed on the m.2 form factor. And since they buy tons of raw flash chips already for phones, designing their own controller instead of buying premade units made sense. (I think they've moved back to socketing on at least some models now.)
DDR6 is only now starting to address the RAM socketing issue, years later.
Apple's pushing boundaries consistently, not making commodity hardware. They're the last standing specialty Unix workstation manufacturer, like SGI or Sun, not Dell.
Would DDR6 potentially be able to offer socketed speeds enough to convince Apple to not solder RAM in (if they felt like it)?
Time will tell...there's some possibility that we'll just start seeing all RAM being soldered next to the CPU going forward.
DDR6 isn't going to be the same style of DIMM socket anymore. It might be a CAMM2 form factor, which is basically a daughter board that screws down next to the CPU (kind of like m.2 SSDs) or it might end up just being the end of sockets for RAM.
It's still probably a few years off.
Oh wow, I did a quick search on what it would mean to replace soldered RAM and it sounded like a very tricky job, with some pretty deep potential pits to fall down. Thanks for the link about that potential form factor, that was interesting. I hope it does end up as a replaceable component generally.
I agree! Doesn't mean I'm happy with that set of trends in mobile computing. I make the evaluation that it's an acceptable set of compromises and find myself willing to buy apple laptop hardware.
Just hoping we can keep the desktop modality alive during my lifetime.
I look at my Mac Studio as a bad dollar-vote, whereas my many Linux-based desktop builds to be excellent dollar-votes.
What is a "dollar-vote"? Are you talking value for money?
Windows being as bad as it is seems like a deliberate self-sabotage campaign