Mocking Donald Trump over POTUS’ take on the NFL and TikTok as well, Kimmel offered his blunt assessment of the aftermath of Kirk’s death in his opening monologue on his September 15 show : “We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it,” the host said
This is honestly the line in the sand for me where I can confidently say we have a fascist government. The targeting of immigrants, the anti LGBT legislation, the cutting of federal funding for...
Exemplary
This is honestly the line in the sand for me where I can confidently say we have a fascist government. The targeting of immigrants, the anti LGBT legislation, the cutting of federal funding for anything that helps less fortunate people, the insanely hugely expanded executive authority on economic and foreign policy, the gutting of independent agencies, and the replacement of professionals with political fronts in all federal agencies were all things that made me say that the government has fascist tendencies. I wasn't quite willing to go as far as to say the government was actually fascist though. I think that's a very heavy label that denotes a very specific thing, which shouldn't be thrown around willy nilly.
The fact that the president has now directly silenced a freely expressed opinion he didn't like using the powers of the federal government, and the fact that he did it in a day makes this fact clear now. We're living under fascism.
There's no realistic limit to what Trump can do domesticly at this point. No one with the power to check his is willing to do so. Not the courts, not the legislature, and not the populace at large.
This argument can no longer be dismissed by any reasonable person as "liberal hysteria" or "insane blue haired millennial irrationality" or whatever other nonsense the right has been calling concern about this over the past few years.
I now have to live in fear of expressing what I consider fairly rational, moderate opinions that differ from the presidents. There's a very real concern from both me and my friends that have publically visible jobs that if we say the wrong thing around the wrong people, we will lose our jobs. I don't have any opinions that anyone a year or two ago would consider radical. I support LGBT rights. I think trans people are discriminated against and should be recognized as the gender they identify with. I think we're wasting money on immigration enforcement to the degree that we're doing it and destroying lives in the process. I think private ownership of guns to the degree that we allow it is largely a negative and so on. I no longer feel comfortable expressing these opinions around strangers though.
Never thought I'd see the country I've lived my whole life in descend into what it's become.
I'm very very glad to hear this from you. But there's a part of me that wants to yell out "Really, now?" To be clear, I'm not shaming you, because your perspective is a very common one. I'm just...
I'm very very glad to hear this from you. But there's a part of me that wants to yell out "Really, now?"
To be clear, I'm not shaming you, because your perspective is a very common one. I'm just upset that it is so increcibly common in the first place. The Republican government has done so many abhorant things over the years. They have dismantled the framework of public media, trampled womens' rights to healthcare, they have removed the rights of trans people to exist and be legally recognized as who they are, they have raided the country with military force, they have detained US citizens, removing their fundamental human rights, they have favored the big bad people in international wars - Israel and Russia - causing countless deaths and destruction, and have caused countless deaths worldwide by ending USAID. But in the end, it's firing a media personality that tips the scale.
I don't know what it is that caused the left to get neutered and submissive, but I'm sick of it.
No, that's actually a lie; I do have a pretty good idea, but at this point it seems pointless to talk about the failings of our political-economic systems.
I agree that the Republican party has done a lot of awful things over the years. I'd comfortably consider them, and have considered them evil, immoral, shitty and so on for a long time. Fascism,...
Exemplary
I agree that the Republican party has done a lot of awful things over the years. I'd comfortably consider them, and have considered them evil, immoral, shitty and so on for a long time. Fascism, however, isn't a moral judgement like those other things are. It's a very specific set of behaviors, which even though Trump especially had bordered on for quite some time, the federal government never quite met that bar for me personally.
They governed that way because for better or worse, people wanted them to govern that way. They were democratically elected and the media helped them along, in some cases with full throated support, and in some cases unwittingly.
Exercising direct federal control of the media is crossing the Rubicon for me however. That's what's tipped the scales into being comfortable calling the country fascist.
It's not the worst thing they've done by a long shot. Bad doesn't = fascist though. It was the missing puzzle piece for me to say that the government is fascist without feeling like I was being a bit hyperbolic.
I get it. Like I said, I’m not here to criticize you about this specifically, it’s more that you’re in a general class of people that frustrate me. But like I said, I’m happy that you changed your...
I get it. Like I said, I’m not here to criticize you about this specifically, it’s more that you’re in a general class of people that frustrate me. But like I said, I’m happy that you changed your mind. I just wish it were earlier.
There is one thing I have to point out in regards to your response though:
They governed that way because for better or worse, people wanted them to govern that way. They were democratically elected and the media helped them along, in some cases with full throated support, and in some cases unwittingly.
That really doesn’t have anything to do with being fascist or not. The German National Socialist party was democratically elected too, and that lead to World War II and the Holocaust. I can understand wanting to use this to think that the party isn’t being run by fascists, though; it can be painful and scary to know that some of your peers, neighbors, and a near-majority of countrymen actually want fascism. But that is the state of the world, and denying it only lead to them getting the power they were after.
The entire point of historical facism being documented was so future generations could stop it before facism took over. So left leaners started pointing out the government was going facist and all...
The entire point of historical facism being documented was so future generations could stop it before facism took over. So left leaners started pointing out the government was going facist and all the Left Lights™️ said "Woah woah woah, let's not get too hasty now. You wouldn't wanna call it what it is too early, now would you? That could hurt the rights feelings, and then they'll go facist out of spite." (looking at you, John Stewart)
So... now we've just let them waltz facism into our government la-dee-da~ Wasn't that so much better, everyone? Are we feelin' free yet?
Part of the difficulty in declaring fascism is that the country has been here before. America is hardly in new territory. Operation Wetback, Japanese internment, McCarthyism, support for Nazis[1],...
Part of the difficulty in declaring fascism is that the country has been here before. America is hardly in new territory. Operation Wetback, Japanese internment, McCarthyism, support for Nazis[1], slavery well past its legality in other British colonies, Jim Crow, etc.
We all learned in school how people in the media at the time would get blacklisted, worse than what Kimmel will likely experience, on flimsy claims of association with communists. Apparently nothing in the country has fundamentally changed since then to prevent that from happening again. So have we always been fascist? Perhaps some shade of gray?
[1] - which was around a third of Americans before we entered the war, not to mention Nazis based their ideology on American racial hierarchy
I'm with you, and I've been on the 'we're already there' train for a while, but there's something about this that feels different. The abuses of power, the corruption, the laundry list of norm...
I'm with you, and I've been on the 'we're already there' train for a while, but there's something about this that feels different. The abuses of power, the corruption, the laundry list of norm violations, the targeting of marginalized people, all the ways they meet the "is this fascism/authoritarianism" checklists, etc. - those were all gigantic flashing warning signs, but they still (sadly) made sense within the broad scope of our politics and policies.
Is it really that shocking to see ICE agents smashing car windows and dragging old ladies away in cuffs? How many times have we seen cops do something like that without consequence? We're so desensitized to this type of violence that it's just what happens now when you don't follow the rules. Suspending due process rights after 20 years of dehumanizing immigrants doesn't feel all that crazy.
Was anyone really that blown away when Mahmoud Khalil was arrested after years of both parties demonizing anyone who spoke out against Israel's atrocities in Gaza? That was also a direct attack on free speech with an equally flimsy "justification," but, uh, maybe he was paid by Hamas? It may have been a bit of a leap, but the groundwork had already been laid.
This thing with Kimmel, on the other hand, crossed a boundary that many people thought was impenetrable and was over something so petty and so trivial that it feels like it's coming out of nowhere. A late night host made a comment that the president didn't like so the president got him fired. It happened it a slightly more roundabout way, but everyone can see that's what happened.
That this naked attack on free speech could happen to a person of his stature and skin tone over something so small, and without any pushback, makes it feel like anything is possible.
I might be mixing two people's opinions and feelings here, but please feel free to jump in and correct me if I misrepresent either of you, @papasquat and @chocobean. In our post-election analysis...
I might be mixing two people's opinions and feelings here, but please feel free to jump in and correct me if I misrepresent either of you, @papasquat and @chocobean.
In our post-election analysis thread, Chocobean made an excellent point that stayed with me. It may have been a quote, but it was something along the lines of 'Me being a woman with Hong Kong ancestry is vitally important some of the time. Me needing food and shelter is vitally important all of the time.'
It's a bad paraphrase of their main point, which I believe was the Trump campaign tapping into economic insecurity to make people avoid engaging with the fascist propositions put forward during the election campaign.
If I'm not completely misunderstanding Papasquat, their point was:
I now have to live in fear of expressing what I consider fairly rational, moderate opinions that differ from the presidents. There's a very real concern from both me and my friends that have publically visible jobs that if we say the wrong thing around the wrong people, we will lose our jobs.
So, to paraphrase - and making a huge assumption - Papasquat being an ally to marginalised groups such as immigrants, LGBTQIA+ people, and economically disadvantaged people was vitally important some of the time. Them needing to maintain a employment for housing and food is vitally important all the time, and the two are now at odds with each other.
Relatively mild political opinions, openly voiced outside of a SCIF in civilian employment, could get them fired if the wrong person hears it. And this isn't an organic change in society, this is being imposed by a fascist centralised government.
I might be completely misunderstanding it, but I can see how for many people, this could become the tipping point. One of the core parts of a fascist program is making people fear to 'traffic with the enemy' (marginalised, targeted groups) and framing disagreement as treason.
As Papasquat says below, this act met the bar for them personally for the definition of fascism. I think given that even political scientists argue about a unifying definition of the term, it's fair to cut someone some slack if they're 'late' to a conclusion others arrived at earlier.
But I am sorry if I have misrepresented anyone's feelings or opinions in this comment, and I am not trying to 'attack' your point @Akir. I respect all of you very much and I'm not trying to pit anyone against each other. My intention was a good-faith explanation of why different people might arrive at different conclusions based on their own internal Rubicon.
Hey, I'm surprised you remember something I said, flattered. One of the things I learned about being a Hong Konger is that some types of Nationalistic people see protecting their identity +...
Hey, I'm surprised you remember something I said, flattered.
One of the things I learned about being a Hong Konger is that some types of Nationalistic people see protecting their identity + exercising the powers of the state for personal fun as a full time job.
@papasquat is right to be afraid for their job, and yeah I guess the Rubicon can be, normal Americans doing their normal American jobs following all the rules of the land, is not protected.
I'd like to posit the idea that we've never been safe at our jobs, though. During the HK protests, a family member brought it up at their American F50 company's group casual chat time, whilst working in Canada. They got pulled in by HR because someone had made a complaint. What did they say, what was the complaint, who and how many brought what complaint, was it the casual group or when did what happened, and assuming willingness to fully comply how can they know what to watch out for in the future, were all denied requests: family member was just told to "maintain a positive work environment", and suddenly had their previously stellar work performance under new review.
@teaearlgraycold brought up McCarthy etc: Americans have done this to citizenry time and time again. I'm last year's Oppenheimer, the protagonist didn't face a trial where evidence is needed, he faced a panel. Colbert faced a similar fate but CBS hid behind "finances/performance review" whereas Kimmel's network didn't feel the need.
HR is a panel that will roll over fast and hard, and they won't need any evidence. Witch hunts target within a community, trigger some types' sadistic fun switch, and individuals have no way to prove innocence because they are not interested in guilt/innocence.
@Akir and @papasquat are both right : just a difference of calling out astronomical vs civil definitions of nightfall.
I have learned a lot from you over the years, old bean. And now I've learned something else. Maybe one of the differences is that my country doesn't have an equivalent of the First Amendment, and...
I have learned a lot from you over the years, old bean. And now I've learned something else.
Maybe one of the differences is that my country doesn't have an equivalent of the First Amendment, and definitely less of a tradition about believing in talking about politics at work.
I also know of someone whose family (in China) was threatened by the UWFD because of their speech about the HK protests, even though that speech was made in our country and that person is no longer a dual citizen. I think they decided bringing it to the attention of law enforcement would make things worse, and decided to be quiet.
I don't know enough about China to know if this is common or if there is legal recourse, but it was terrifying for the person and their close friends who had voiced similar views.
I understand. Please believe me when I say you are preaching to the choir here. There’s a reason why I’m stressing that I’m not upset with the person I responded to. The problem I have is not with...
I understand. Please believe me when I say you are preaching to the choir here. There’s a reason why I’m stressing that I’m not upset with the person I responded to. The problem I have is not with them personally, but I’m just frustrated by the vast swaths of people who are only just now realizing how bad things are when we already have so many examples of how bad the situation currently is. I understand why people have so slow to realize this, too; @teaearlgraycold had a really excellent historical perspective on it, I think, and we have an entire culture that basically tells people that it’s bad to call fascists out for being fascists, supported both by loud mouthed fascists and their sympathizers as well as well-meaning leftists and centrists who will come out and say “yeah, but are they really fascists?” With some of them giving definitions that would have only happened after they have gained control of the government.
And of course they do now have that control, and they are doing those things, and still there are people in denial. So you can understand why I might be frustrated with late adopters.
Yeah absolutely. I was frustrated when people wouldn't just call it what it so obviously (to me) was back in 2023, when he started campaigning again. But I am not American, I was just living...
Yeah absolutely. I was frustrated when people wouldn't just call it what it so obviously (to me) was back in 2023, when he started campaigning again.
But I am not American, I was just living there, so I guess in the first instance I genuinely thought he'd be locked up or barred from running because it was so obvious. I didn't yet understand the supreme court capture mechanism, and I only had knowledge of the theoretical checks and balances of American governance from university.
Second, as time wore on, it felt a bit rude going around to hopeful (mostly Democrat) people I knew and doing what I wanted to do: screaming 'Wake the fuck up, you are about to lose your country.' I noticed in my times living in the States that even a 'leftist Democrat' absolutely hates a foreign person levelling any criticism, even based in objective fact, against the American project. My primary goal when living in America was survival, and part of that meant making myself a small target and remaining agreeable.
(This is a non sequitur, but going out and travelling to different places where I live is very easy because of distance + price. There is a very low barrier to entry, and people come back with a diverse view of governance, things they liked about other societies and cultures, things they appreciated about their own. I found that Americans who had the privilege to go other places were much less reflexively defensive about American greatness. But this was by no means universal, with some of the most Bernie/AOC supporting wealthy liberals getting the most upset when I would literally agree with their points about what was wrong with America. It was frustrating, confusing, and depressing. Finding out that some of them didn't even vote because Harris wasn't 'good enough' was infuriating.)
I'm sorry for the loss of your country. What grammatical tense make sense? As @Akir says, we had been losing America (Past Perfect Progressive Tense), we are seeing the loss in real time...
I'm sorry for the loss of your country.
What grammatical tense make sense? As @Akir says, we had been losing America (Past Perfect Progressive Tense), we are seeing the loss in real time (present), and we will continue to be losing more of it every day (Future Progressive Tense) at least for a while.
But we, as in the world community plus Americans, have not yet lost America in the past complete sense. It's not my place to tell Americans whether and how to fight: we've never seen a Western, fully democratic world power go this way before. Fighters will lose jobs, might be arrested, and even jailed. They might be physically hurt and might have loved ones hurt. No actions, even legally protected ones, are safe anymore.
And yet ..... And yet. Those who live in places where those right have never been guaranteed, who don't even have the paper legal rights, still fight. Those citizens who don't have a government that pretends to care, whose police and armies grew up in tyranny, still fight.
Not speaking to you personally because I don't know your risks and I certainly want you in particular to be safe. But I hope the American people fight for their freedom instead of all quietly going under.
They linked a video and I was expecting more - anything about Kirk directly - but nope. Just that and he mocks Trump's response to reporter and Fox morning show hosts about Kirk's death which was...
They linked a video and I was expecting more - anything about Kirk directly - but nope. Just that and he mocks Trump's response to reporter and Fox morning show hosts about Kirk's death which was to basically ignore the question and talk about a ballroom they're building.
They're literally embedding party censors in media companies, so yeah. That's one of the parts of the new TikTok deal (besides a handout to Oracle): a government appointed member of the board....
They're literally embedding party censors in media companies, so yeah. That's one of the parts of the new TikTok deal (besides a handout to Oracle): a government appointed member of the board.
The U.S. entity will have an American-dominated board, the Wall Street Journal reported, with one member designated by the U.S. government.
[...]
The basics of the new deal, also similar to April, include that ByteDance will keep the single largest ownership stake at 19.9%, just under a 20% threshold, two of the sources said. The consortium that would hold 80% includes ByteDance's current shareholders Susquehanna International Group (SIG), General Atlantic, and KKR <KKR.N>, as well as new investors such as Andreessen Horowitz. Oracle <ORCL.N> is also likely to take a stake, and the Wall Street Journal reported that Silver Lake would invest as well.
CBS was inflicted with "government oversight" in a similar fashion. (Notably, the son of Oracle CEO, who is now the richest person in the world, is also involved in the Paramount/CBS deal.)
ABC doesn't have one yet, but it's cells result of the government throwing their weight around here.
Without irony, America is now behaving more like a wacky dictatorship than China. At least China's brutal circle of old men can agree on economic progress and stability whenever it doesn't...
Without irony, America is now behaving more like a wacky dictatorship than China. At least China's brutal circle of old men can agree on economic progress and stability whenever it doesn't conflict with party rule. America is punching down less hard on dissenting citizens so far : no jail, no mock trials. Now is the last call for citizenry action before the regime can consolidate military police
A few days prior he even says he can't fathom how there are people celebrating Charlie Kirk's death. This rant was so innocuous. Editing my comment, I was confusing the two videos, there was a...
Right before the main part about Trump A few days prior he even says he can't fathom how there are people celebrating Charlie Kirk's death.
This rant was so innocuous.
Editing my comment, I was confusing the two videos, there was a video here starting around 16 seconds where he talks about it.
I was mistaken, it was from a video a few days prior, can be seen here starting around 16 seconds for context and he says it shortly after. I will edit my comment to mention that it was in a video...
I was mistaken, it was from a video a few days prior, can be seen here starting around 16 seconds for context and he says it shortly after.
I will edit my comment to mention that it was in a video a few days prior, but the sentiment is the same.
Is this a joke in bad taste or something? I thought one of their slogans was "make comedy legal again" But more importantly, this isn't even "Mr Trump didn't like the joke, let's fire Kimmel to...
Is this a joke in bad taste or something? I thought one of their slogans was "make comedy legal again"
But more importantly, this isn't even "Mr Trump didn't like the joke, let's fire Kimmel to appease him", it was FCC putting pressure to fire him, right? Like wtf, a government body censoring a private entity is straight up in violation of the first amendment.
I don't live in the US but it really feels like this government can get away with anything
Conservatives found out after the courts counted to 3 nothing happens. It's now a toddler on full rampage with one parent wringing hands over "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" and...
Conservatives found out after the courts counted to 3 nothing happens. It's now a toddler on full rampage with one parent wringing hands over "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" and the other actively enjoying the spectacle
It's not a bad taste joke. "Make comedy legal again" wasn't about this sort of thing; it was about not letting people talk back to comedians when they made trans or ableist or racist jokes. Marc...
It's not a bad taste joke. "Make comedy legal again" wasn't about this sort of thing; it was about not letting people talk back to comedians when they made trans or ableist or racist jokes. Marc Maron has a bit on single issue voting which is scathing and angry and fair warning: uses an ableist slur as the punchline, but really sums it up.
It wasn't about making comedy legal again, it was about removing cultural pushback against middle aged white men who want to say awful things to the people they hate.
This is feeling genuinely scary in a "first they came for" sort of way. I believe Robert Reich framed this as escalation from Phase 1 of Trump harassing his enemies and focusing on high profile...
This is feeling genuinely scary in a "first they came for" sort of way. I believe Robert Reich framed this as escalation from Phase 1 of Trump harassing his enemies and focusing on high profile universities with DEI and pressing immigrant communities to pivoting to Phase 2 now to control of/coercion over the press, education more broadly, and targeting citizens' rights explicitly.
He certainly said it more eloquently than me and I'm probably fumbling it. But what comes next? When will enough be enough?
More enemies, more targets, more distractions so that the Epstein ship doesn't sail. I hate to say it, but look at Israel and Russia. These are countries with two leaders in desperate need of an...
More enemies, more targets, more distractions so that the Epstein ship doesn't sail.
I hate to say it, but look at Israel and Russia.
These are countries with two leaders in desperate need of an offramp, because without one they'll keep doubling down.
Absolutely. Wishing that any and all Americans having brave conversations keep their digital footprints limited and their personal information off the internet. It's scary stuff.
Absolutely. Wishing that any and all Americans having brave conversations keep their digital footprints limited and their personal information off the internet. It's scary stuff.
This is putting my stomach in knots. What can we do? I always vote, donate, beg my family not to vote republican, and beg my non-voting friends to vote. It feels like all of that effort was wasted...
This is putting my stomach in knots. What can we do? I always vote, donate, beg my family not to vote republican, and beg my non-voting friends to vote. It feels like all of that effort was wasted when republicans get elected anyway.
At this point, genuinely, survive. Do what you can for the people near you, but take care of yourself. We can't stop the ship from going down from where we stand. Just try to keep your head above...
What can we do?
At this point, genuinely, survive. Do what you can for the people near you, but take care of yourself.
We can't stop the ship from going down from where we stand. Just try to keep your head above water, look for the helpers, do the best you can locally. The big picture just isn't even worth focusing on at this point. Not as something we can do anything about.
Cling tight to community. Shelter and help each other, share resources and information, organise. Grassroots political resistance starts with groups of people coming together just to survive and...
Cling tight to community. Shelter and help each other, share resources and information, organise. Grassroots political resistance starts with groups of people coming together just to survive and pull through. And don't lose hope.
This means the only late night shows with any future are The Tonight Show and Late Night, if we’re keeping track. This is a guy that Disney had relied on for decades to promote their films, their...
This means the only late night shows with any future are The Tonight Show and Late Night, if we’re keeping track.
This is a guy that Disney had relied on for decades to promote their films, their tv shows. They had him host the Oscar’s twice, they had his show cover the Oscar’s. And they just threw him like that.
Makes me wonder if these CEOs/corporations are really just that scared of the Trump regime, or if the regime has something compromising on them. It's looking more and more like the first option,...
Makes me wonder if these CEOs/corporations are really just that scared of the Trump regime, or if the regime has something compromising on them. It's looking more and more like the first option, which seems the more terrifying of the two...
Edit: I'm seeing now that the Trump regime was threatening to take their FCC broadcasting license if they didn't fire Kimmel. This is definitely terrifying.
Almost certainly true, but I would've thought Kimmel was pulling in enough money for them to not care about that. I guess billionaires are the only ones with real class consciousness.
Almost certainly true, but I would've thought Kimmel was pulling in enough money for them to not care about that. I guess billionaires are the only ones with real class consciousness.
The crazy thing is the network doesn't actually have a broadcasting license, all the individual stations on that network that transmit radio waves are the ones who hold individual FCC licenses....
I'm seeing now that the Trump regime was threatening to take their FCC broadcasting license if they didn't fire Kimmel. This is definitely terrifying.
The crazy thing is the network doesn't actually have a broadcasting license, all the individual stations on that network that transmit radio waves are the ones who hold individual FCC licenses. FCC Commissioner Brendan Carr is downright evil. He was a contributor to Project 2025 and he's been perfectly happy to leverage the FCC's regulatory power to shakedown companies; ABC, CBS/Paramount, NBC/Comcast, NPR/PBS/CPB, Verizon, and Dish have all gotten screwed over for DEI, programming content, or in the case of Dish, being a competitor to Musk. Like other federal agencies like the DoJ, FBI, and ICE, the FCC has been weaponized as Trump's personal retribution and revenge tool.
It mostly comes down to self-preservation. Orangina has openly talked about shutting down media organizations (or at the very least, making it effectively impossible for them to operate). It...
It mostly comes down to self-preservation. Orangina has openly talked about shutting down media organizations (or at the very least, making it effectively impossible for them to operate). It wouldn’t surprise me if he has dirt on the companies (and he could get some pretty easily). And a lot of American political journalism is access-based, almost to the point of being gossip for nerds. Piss off your source too much, you don’t get more info. This is all on top of the greatest upheaval to media since the invention of the printing press: the internet.
I don't think it is really even that they have dirt. The administration has shown they are happy to just make stuff up and take action unilaterally, then wait for that to catch up to them later on...
I don't think it is really even that they have dirt. The administration has shown they are happy to just make stuff up and take action unilaterally, then wait for that to catch up to them later on months or years later after long drawn out fights. By which time the damage is already done.
Yeah frankly it seems like a convenient excuse to end an unprofitable show while mitigating a ton of political risk from the administration at the same time. Not an unexpected choice from a...
Yeah frankly it seems like a convenient excuse to end an unprofitable show while mitigating a ton of political risk from the administration at the same time.
Not an unexpected choice from a corporation, but the fact that this administration's crackdowns on free speech are being priced into the business strategies of some of our largest companies is terrifying.
This is the chilling and self-reinforcing effect of fascism straight up. The corporations believe the administration has the power to police speech, so now by demonstration and matter of corporate risk tolerance they do.
One could see this is as the tragedy of a largely private media system in the US as well. If your big tent pole cultural institutions hinge on ongoing, top-level popularity, what's keeping the...
One could see this is as the tragedy of a largely private media system in the US as well. If your big tent pole cultural institutions hinge on ongoing, top-level popularity, what's keeping the companies that fund them from moving with the times.
Sure, you could say that going with the times is the natural thing to do, but without traditions, what's left?
This is why so many countries have strong, publicly funded media with shows that run for decades and decades, and help to keep the national identity from caving in on itself during periods like this.
That Colbert and Kimmel have been pulled offstage by a novelty sized hook is a damn shame if you ask me, and I don't even live there.
The charitable case could be made that late night broadcast isn’t worth it in the age of evergreen streaming and short form. You could make that case with Colbert because the economics weren’t...
The charitable case could be made that late night broadcast isn’t worth it in the age of evergreen streaming and short form. You could make that case with Colbert because the economics weren’t there, but yeah, this is pretty brutal.
Tbh I wouldn't care if all the late night shows bar LWT were axed, because I find them extremely cringeworthy and avenues for celebrities to grift movies and products. I also find Kimmel himself...
Tbh I wouldn't care if all the late night shows bar LWT were axed, because I find them extremely cringeworthy and avenues for celebrities to grift movies and products. I also find Kimmel himself quite hard to like as a host. But the reasoning here is such obvious BS.
Yeah it's not about the virtue of late night shows or Kimmel himself, it's the federal government restricting speech, the pressure on media companies and the rolling over and giving up by said...
Yeah it's not about the virtue of late night shows or Kimmel himself, it's the federal government restricting speech, the pressure on media companies and the rolling over and giving up by said companies.
It’s odd that this belly showing is happening now when during his term we got a whole lot of “Democracy Dies in Darkness” stuff. Kimmel himself was promoted as an anti-Trump figurehead. But now...
It’s odd that this belly showing is happening now when during his term we got a whole lot of “Democracy Dies in Darkness” stuff. Kimmel himself was promoted as an anti-Trump figurehead. But now during the second term, which is by all accounts much worse, we don’t get any of that
It's the escalation - it's got to be illegal to pull someone's FCC license over this. It's also how long of harassment, lawsuits, death threats, etc. so instead you give in I guess. It is in fact...
It's the escalation - it's got to be illegal to pull someone's FCC license over this. It's also how long of harassment, lawsuits, death threats, etc. so instead you give in I guess.
It may be illegal but does that doesn't matter anymore right? I am not all that knowledgeable about the legal system over there nor am I American, but.. even if lawsuits and court cases happen...
It may be illegal but does that doesn't matter anymore right? I am not all that knowledgeable about the legal system over there nor am I American, but.. even if lawsuits and court cases happen from this, the system is so extremely slow that it will be many months (years?) before anything comes of it. And even if there was a way to get a quick ruling, it would just be overturned because the supreme court is also corrupt to the core. It's becoming clear as day to me that they get what they want 90% of the time.
That's essentially what I was saying, while it has to be illegal, how many months of the illegal retaliation plus the harassment at all levels are you willing to deal with
That's essentially what I was saying, while it has to be illegal, how many months of the illegal retaliation plus the harassment at all levels are you willing to deal with
In his first term, Trump was a joke candidate who unexpectedly won and didn't know what to do with it. This time around he's very clearly been given support, an agenda (Project 2025) with steps to...
In his first term, Trump was a joke candidate who unexpectedly won and didn't know what to do with it. This time around he's very clearly been given support, an agenda (Project 2025) with steps to carry out, and subordinates who are ideologically motivated and relatively unified (different grops being unified in one of two or three mutually contradictory directions).
capitalism will always favor the status quo. Rather thank rock the boat, they're just gonna push for whatever allows them to keep making money. There no principles at work here.
capitalism will always favor the status quo. Rather thank rock the boat, they're just gonna push for whatever allows them to keep making money. There no principles at work here.
Although he's part of that crew (Strike Force Five ⚡️), I think Oliver is in a different category PR-wise. HBO isn't broadcast, even though that matters far less in the streaming age.
Although he's part of that crew (Strike Force Five ⚡️), I think Oliver is in a different category PR-wise. HBO isn't broadcast, even though that matters far less in the streaming age.
I hope this makes the reality of the situation plain for some of the more 'centrist' or 'I'm not into politics' Americans. I think this is point 4 on Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism essay. I think many...
I hope this makes the reality of the situation plain for some of the more 'centrist' or 'I'm not into politics' Americans.
I think this is point 4 on Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism essay.
I think many thought that, because a Goebbels-like figure hadn't stepped in to nationalise the media, that the media landscape in the US was completely different to 1930s Germany.
Having studied the period extensively at a postgraduate level, these are the exact tactics that were used. Frighten businesses into compliance, until they are expressing the party line because not doing so carries frightening penalties.
The Sinclair special is a particularly obvious and callous attempt at point 11.
Seems like at least half a dozen of these points are fulfilled now. Struggling to understand point 11 though: Anyone can help me understand what "educated to become a hero" means?
I think this is point 4 on Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism essay.
Seems like at least half a dozen of these points are fulfilled now.
Struggling to understand point 11 though:
"Everybody is educated to become a hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."
Anyone can help me understand what "educated to become a hero" means?
I interpret hero as "someone willing to die for the cause" whatever the cause is. So you tell people that as long as they're pushing the ideology the government espouses, should they die they're a...
I interpret hero as "someone willing to die for the cause" whatever the cause is.
So you tell people that as long as they're pushing the ideology the government espouses, should they die they're a martyr and a saint, should they " stand up" and chase down immigrants or sue someone for DEI, they're one of the good guys
Sinclair owns a bunch of local ABC affiliate stations (they were the ones responsible for mandating that creepy "This is extremely dangerous to our democracy" script on dozens of local news channels).
The thing is, as others have pointed out, what Kimmel said wasn't even mildly incendiary. I don't think this was even about Charlie Kirk, though he makes a convenient smokescreen. I think the real...
The thing is, as others have pointed out, what Kimmel said wasn't even mildly incendiary. I don't think this was even about Charlie Kirk, though he makes a convenient smokescreen.
I think the real problem was that Kimmel followed that statement with a clip of Trump's response to the question of how he was coping with Kirk's assassination... with an indifferent boast about how great the new ballroom renovation is going to be. Kimmel showed that Kirk's death is just a political football in the hands of a narcissist sociopath, and worse... the audience was laughing at Trump. So Kimmel had to go. We're not in "free speech" times anymore. The gloves are off.
I just realized what this situation reminds me of. It's the scene of Stephen Fry's late night talk show host character making light of the dear leader (and immediately afterward having his home raided by black-armored goons who "disappear" him in the night) in V For Vendetta. I mean, thankfully Kimmel only got fired. Not that real life would play out just as the movie does, but I have yet to see any indication that this administration would NOT stoop to the same kinds of violent tactics. ICE is literally doing exactly the same thing to immigrants as we speak, just swap the black bags for zip cuffs. I haven't seen this movie in many years (it came out in the 9/11 GWB era) but the parallels to our present moment are giving me shivers.
It’s funny, I was really into that movie when it came out in 2005. The timing was right as the ugly side of American anti-terror military adventurism was coming to light. This was before Chelsea...
It’s funny, I was really into that movie when it came out in 2005. The timing was right as the ugly side of American anti-terror military adventurism was coming to light. This was before Chelsea Manning but we were learning about the horrors of Guantánamo Bay and Abu Ghraib. I was a young republican reckoning with what my post-9/11 politics had wrought and trying to figure out where I belonged, ideologically, next (that would lead me to Ron Paul a few years later, but that’s another story). V For Vendetta spoke my language as a 20-something budding libertarian male.
I have it on DVD around here somewhere. Haven’t watched it in years because the rise of the alt-right knuckle draggers drove me (mercifully) out of libertarianism. I’ve spent years souring on the movie because that’s just not me anymore, and since the Obama era that kind of dystopia has seemed silly and ungrounded. Also I think I just generally aged out of the Wachowskis’ stylized badass ultraviolence. Anyway, in my memory the movie is super cringe now.
But maybe it’s due for a rewatch. Digging up those clips reminded me of some good parts I’d forgotten, and like I said, it’s SURPRISINGLY relevant today.
Edit: I completely forgot to mention that Anonymous co-opting the V mask also contributed to the cringe factor for me. I was just unable to separate the character from 4chan edgelords for the longest time.
I've always been a fan of dystopian fiction, so I enjoyed it from a different angle. I rewatched it maybe a year or so ago, and there are definitely some things I don't like as much but the core...
I've always been a fan of dystopian fiction, so I enjoyed it from a different angle. I rewatched it maybe a year or so ago, and there are definitely some things I don't like as much but the core story rings true to me. I like Alan Moore's graphic novel less but I tend to like the adaptations of his work more than his work itself.
Keeping this strictly focused on the entertainment aspect, you gotta feel bad for Kimmel, who campaigned for Colbert's Emmy, only to have the same thing happen a few days later.
Keeping this strictly focused on the entertainment aspect, you gotta feel bad for Kimmel, who campaigned for Colbert's Emmy, only to have the same thing happen a few days later.
I gotta say though, its pretty wild seeing so many people suddenly act like they care about the Jimmy Kimmel show. I dont think Ive ever seen someone talk about the show without dunking on it...
I gotta say though, its pretty wild seeing so many people suddenly act like they care about the Jimmy Kimmel show. I dont think Ive ever seen someone talk about the show without dunking on it until this week.
Jimmy Kimmel sucks. His show is unfunny, and I got sick of basically all late night back during Trump's first presidency when most of their writers apparently put their feet up on their desks and...
Jimmy Kimmel sucks. His show is unfunny, and I got sick of basically all late night back during Trump's first presidency when most of their writers apparently put their feet up on their desks and just relied on the same handful of "orange man bad" jokes every night for years.
I don't care about Jimmy Kimmel specifically going off the air. If his show got cancelled because of low ratings, I'd probably be happy. I care that Donald Trump can just decide he doesn't like a show and the next day it's taken off the air.
Given that we live in a supposedly democratic society, having direct control of the media means you get to be a dictator. You have the power to directly pull the levers of public opinion and literally do whatever you want.
As I said above We're not defending a show or person we love, we're defending the concept of a free and independent media.
As I said above
It's not about the virtue of late night shows or Kimmel himself, it's the federal government restricting speech, the pressure on media companies and the rolling over and giving up by said companies.
We're not defending a show or person we love, we're defending the concept of a free and independent media.
As a non Kimmel fan I feel bad for him yeah, he's got his family and this is his career. To be canceled, and immediately unlike Colbert with a free year to go hard, is a rougher deal too. But...
As a non Kimmel fan I feel bad for him yeah, he's got his family and this is his career. To be canceled, and immediately unlike Colbert with a free year to go hard, is a rougher deal too.
But professionally, his show would not have won this year over Colbert's, so his billboard for Colbert is a clever advertising tactic for his own show.
Musk has offered to pay the legal fees for anyone fired from their job over something they've said in public, right? Holding my breath to see him rush to Kimmel's defence, as well as the defence...
Musk has offered to pay the legal fees for anyone fired from their job over something they've said in public, right? Holding my breath to see him rush to Kimmel's defence, as well as the defence of everyone else who has been fired over voicing their opinions of the recently killed fascist.
I hate it when I agree with Tucker Carlson about anything: Tucker Carlson says Trump administration is using Charlie Kirk’s killing to trample First Amendment.
People, please just don't complain on social media. A media company like ABC is very sensitive to public opinion. Please contact them to tell them what you think. According to Duck A.I.:...
People, please just don't complain on social media.
A media company like ABC is very sensitive to public opinion.
Please contact them to tell them what you think.
According to Duck A.I.:
You can contact ABC by calling their customer service at 818-460-7477, using their live chat on the ABC website, or reaching out via their social media accounts on platforms like Facebook and Twitter. For more specific inquiries, you can also fill out a feedback form on their website.
I never really watched Jimmy Kimmel's late night show but I remember him from old shows like "Win Ben Stein's Money" and "The Man Show". Adam Carolla was also on The Man Show, and used to be on...
I never really watched Jimmy Kimmel's late night show but I remember him from old shows like "Win Ben Stein's Money" and "The Man Show". Adam Carolla was also on The Man Show, and used to be on the radio with Kimmel. I guess he and Kimmel are friends in spite of their (currently) opposite political leanings. I used to listen to Carolla's podcast for a while until his "grouchy but funny old man" persona slid into "Trumpy right wing unfunny authoritarian". (This coincided with his involvement with Dennis Prager).
Carolla is the kind of guy that would rant about how comedians should be able to say whatever they want. So I wondered if Carolla had anything to say about this situation, and I found This article on Cracked which shows he is just not really giving an opinion. That's less disappointing than I expected, I guess, but also shows how the most we can hope for from most conservatives on the current admin is "only slightly hypocritical".
The famously conservative Carolla also shared his feelings about the show’s pseudo-cancelation: “My feeling is this — I don’t think he should have been fired. He was inaccurate about something. It wasn’t like he was necessarily attacking Charlie Kirk, he was trying to dump it on Trump and (was) inaccurate about it.”
Of course, Kimmel’s statement was basically just refuting claims that Kirk’s killer was part of the extreme left, suggesting that he was really a right winger — since nothing has been conclusively reported about the assassin’s political leanings, Kimmel was seemingly only as inaccurate as the MAGA Republicans he was criticizing for being inaccurate.
“I can’t turn on Jimmy because he made my career,” Carolla concluded.
All of which is a pretty tepid response from the “stand up to cancel culture” guy.
That was it? Wow.
This is honestly the line in the sand for me where I can confidently say we have a fascist government. The targeting of immigrants, the anti LGBT legislation, the cutting of federal funding for anything that helps less fortunate people, the insanely hugely expanded executive authority on economic and foreign policy, the gutting of independent agencies, and the replacement of professionals with political fronts in all federal agencies were all things that made me say that the government has fascist tendencies. I wasn't quite willing to go as far as to say the government was actually fascist though. I think that's a very heavy label that denotes a very specific thing, which shouldn't be thrown around willy nilly.
The fact that the president has now directly silenced a freely expressed opinion he didn't like using the powers of the federal government, and the fact that he did it in a day makes this fact clear now. We're living under fascism.
There's no realistic limit to what Trump can do domesticly at this point. No one with the power to check his is willing to do so. Not the courts, not the legislature, and not the populace at large.
This argument can no longer be dismissed by any reasonable person as "liberal hysteria" or "insane blue haired millennial irrationality" or whatever other nonsense the right has been calling concern about this over the past few years.
I now have to live in fear of expressing what I consider fairly rational, moderate opinions that differ from the presidents. There's a very real concern from both me and my friends that have publically visible jobs that if we say the wrong thing around the wrong people, we will lose our jobs. I don't have any opinions that anyone a year or two ago would consider radical. I support LGBT rights. I think trans people are discriminated against and should be recognized as the gender they identify with. I think we're wasting money on immigration enforcement to the degree that we're doing it and destroying lives in the process. I think private ownership of guns to the degree that we allow it is largely a negative and so on. I no longer feel comfortable expressing these opinions around strangers though.
Never thought I'd see the country I've lived my whole life in descend into what it's become.
I'm very very glad to hear this from you. But there's a part of me that wants to yell out "Really, now?"
To be clear, I'm not shaming you, because your perspective is a very common one. I'm just upset that it is so increcibly common in the first place. The Republican government has done so many abhorant things over the years. They have dismantled the framework of public media, trampled womens' rights to healthcare, they have removed the rights of trans people to exist and be legally recognized as who they are, they have raided the country with military force, they have detained US citizens, removing their fundamental human rights, they have favored the big bad people in international wars - Israel and Russia - causing countless deaths and destruction, and have caused countless deaths worldwide by ending USAID. But in the end, it's firing a media personality that tips the scale.
I don't know what it is that caused the left to get neutered and submissive, but I'm sick of it.
No, that's actually a lie; I do have a pretty good idea, but at this point it seems pointless to talk about the failings of our political-economic systems.
I agree that the Republican party has done a lot of awful things over the years. I'd comfortably consider them, and have considered them evil, immoral, shitty and so on for a long time. Fascism, however, isn't a moral judgement like those other things are. It's a very specific set of behaviors, which even though Trump especially had bordered on for quite some time, the federal government never quite met that bar for me personally.
They governed that way because for better or worse, people wanted them to govern that way. They were democratically elected and the media helped them along, in some cases with full throated support, and in some cases unwittingly.
Exercising direct federal control of the media is crossing the Rubicon for me however. That's what's tipped the scales into being comfortable calling the country fascist.
It's not the worst thing they've done by a long shot. Bad doesn't = fascist though. It was the missing puzzle piece for me to say that the government is fascist without feeling like I was being a bit hyperbolic.
I get it. Like I said, I’m not here to criticize you about this specifically, it’s more that you’re in a general class of people that frustrate me. But like I said, I’m happy that you changed your mind. I just wish it were earlier.
There is one thing I have to point out in regards to your response though:
That really doesn’t have anything to do with being fascist or not. The German National Socialist party was democratically elected too, and that lead to World War II and the Holocaust. I can understand wanting to use this to think that the party isn’t being run by fascists, though; it can be painful and scary to know that some of your peers, neighbors, and a near-majority of countrymen actually want fascism. But that is the state of the world, and denying it only lead to them getting the power they were after.
The entire point of historical facism being documented was so future generations could stop it before facism took over. So left leaners started pointing out the government was going facist and all the Left Lights™️ said "Woah woah woah, let's not get too hasty now. You wouldn't wanna call it what it is too early, now would you? That could hurt the rights feelings, and then they'll go facist out of spite." (looking at you, John Stewart)
So... now we've just let them waltz facism into our government la-dee-da~ Wasn't that so much better, everyone? Are we feelin' free yet?
Part of the difficulty in declaring fascism is that the country has been here before. America is hardly in new territory. Operation Wetback, Japanese internment, McCarthyism, support for Nazis[1], slavery well past its legality in other British colonies, Jim Crow, etc.
We all learned in school how people in the media at the time would get blacklisted, worse than what Kimmel will likely experience, on flimsy claims of association with communists. Apparently nothing in the country has fundamentally changed since then to prevent that from happening again. So have we always been fascist? Perhaps some shade of gray?
[1] - which was around a third of Americans before we entered the war, not to mention Nazis based their ideology on American racial hierarchy
I'd like to recommend The Plot Against America for more about this. It's not the best show that David Simon has made, but it's still good!
I'm with you, and I've been on the 'we're already there' train for a while, but there's something about this that feels different. The abuses of power, the corruption, the laundry list of norm violations, the targeting of marginalized people, all the ways they meet the "is this fascism/authoritarianism" checklists, etc. - those were all gigantic flashing warning signs, but they still (sadly) made sense within the broad scope of our politics and policies.
Is it really that shocking to see ICE agents smashing car windows and dragging old ladies away in cuffs? How many times have we seen cops do something like that without consequence? We're so desensitized to this type of violence that it's just what happens now when you don't follow the rules. Suspending due process rights after 20 years of dehumanizing immigrants doesn't feel all that crazy.
Was anyone really that blown away when Mahmoud Khalil was arrested after years of both parties demonizing anyone who spoke out against Israel's atrocities in Gaza? That was also a direct attack on free speech with an equally flimsy "justification," but, uh, maybe he was paid by Hamas? It may have been a bit of a leap, but the groundwork had already been laid.
This thing with Kimmel, on the other hand, crossed a boundary that many people thought was impenetrable and was over something so petty and so trivial that it feels like it's coming out of nowhere. A late night host made a comment that the president didn't like so the president got him fired. It happened it a slightly more roundabout way, but everyone can see that's what happened.
That this naked attack on free speech could happen to a person of his stature and skin tone over something so small, and without any pushback, makes it feel like anything is possible.
I might be mixing two people's opinions and feelings here, but please feel free to jump in and correct me if I misrepresent either of you, @papasquat and @chocobean.
In our post-election analysis thread, Chocobean made an excellent point that stayed with me. It may have been a quote, but it was something along the lines of 'Me being a woman with Hong Kong ancestry is vitally important some of the time. Me needing food and shelter is vitally important all of the time.'
It's a bad paraphrase of their main point, which I believe was the Trump campaign tapping into economic insecurity to make people avoid engaging with the fascist propositions put forward during the election campaign.
If I'm not completely misunderstanding Papasquat, their point was:
So, to paraphrase - and making a huge assumption - Papasquat being an ally to marginalised groups such as immigrants, LGBTQIA+ people, and economically disadvantaged people was vitally important some of the time. Them needing to maintain a employment for housing and food is vitally important all the time, and the two are now at odds with each other.
Relatively mild political opinions, openly voiced outside of a SCIF in civilian employment, could get them fired if the wrong person hears it. And this isn't an organic change in society, this is being imposed by a fascist centralised government.
I might be completely misunderstanding it, but I can see how for many people, this could become the tipping point. One of the core parts of a fascist program is making people fear to 'traffic with the enemy' (marginalised, targeted groups) and framing disagreement as treason.
As Papasquat says below, this act met the bar for them personally for the definition of fascism. I think given that even political scientists argue about a unifying definition of the term, it's fair to cut someone some slack if they're 'late' to a conclusion others arrived at earlier.
But I am sorry if I have misrepresented anyone's feelings or opinions in this comment, and I am not trying to 'attack' your point @Akir. I respect all of you very much and I'm not trying to pit anyone against each other. My intention was a good-faith explanation of why different people might arrive at different conclusions based on their own internal Rubicon.
Hey, I'm surprised you remember something I said, flattered.
One of the things I learned about being a Hong Konger is that some types of Nationalistic people see protecting their identity + exercising the powers of the state for personal fun as a full time job.
@papasquat is right to be afraid for their job, and yeah I guess the Rubicon can be, normal Americans doing their normal American jobs following all the rules of the land, is not protected.
I'd like to posit the idea that we've never been safe at our jobs, though. During the HK protests, a family member brought it up at their American F50 company's group casual chat time, whilst working in Canada. They got pulled in by HR because someone had made a complaint. What did they say, what was the complaint, who and how many brought what complaint, was it the casual group or when did what happened, and assuming willingness to fully comply how can they know what to watch out for in the future, were all denied requests: family member was just told to "maintain a positive work environment", and suddenly had their previously stellar work performance under new review.
@teaearlgraycold brought up McCarthy etc: Americans have done this to citizenry time and time again. I'm last year's Oppenheimer, the protagonist didn't face a trial where evidence is needed, he faced a panel. Colbert faced a similar fate but CBS hid behind "finances/performance review" whereas Kimmel's network didn't feel the need.
HR is a panel that will roll over fast and hard, and they won't need any evidence. Witch hunts target within a community, trigger some types' sadistic fun switch, and individuals have no way to prove innocence because they are not interested in guilt/innocence.
@Akir and @papasquat are both right : just a difference of calling out astronomical vs civil definitions of nightfall.
I have learned a lot from you over the years, old bean. And now I've learned something else.
Maybe one of the differences is that my country doesn't have an equivalent of the First Amendment, and definitely less of a tradition about believing in talking about politics at work.
I also know of someone whose family (in China) was threatened by the UWFD because of their speech about the HK protests, even though that speech was made in our country and that person is no longer a dual citizen. I think they decided bringing it to the attention of law enforcement would make things worse, and decided to be quiet.
I don't know enough about China to know if this is common or if there is legal recourse, but it was terrifying for the person and their close friends who had voiced similar views.
I understand. Please believe me when I say you are preaching to the choir here. There’s a reason why I’m stressing that I’m not upset with the person I responded to. The problem I have is not with them personally, but I’m just frustrated by the vast swaths of people who are only just now realizing how bad things are when we already have so many examples of how bad the situation currently is. I understand why people have so slow to realize this, too; @teaearlgraycold had a really excellent historical perspective on it, I think, and we have an entire culture that basically tells people that it’s bad to call fascists out for being fascists, supported both by loud mouthed fascists and their sympathizers as well as well-meaning leftists and centrists who will come out and say “yeah, but are they really fascists?” With some of them giving definitions that would have only happened after they have gained control of the government.
And of course they do now have that control, and they are doing those things, and still there are people in denial. So you can understand why I might be frustrated with late adopters.
Yeah absolutely. I was frustrated when people wouldn't just call it what it so obviously (to me) was back in 2023, when he started campaigning again.
But I am not American, I was just living there, so I guess in the first instance I genuinely thought he'd be locked up or barred from running because it was so obvious. I didn't yet understand the supreme court capture mechanism, and I only had knowledge of the theoretical checks and balances of American governance from university.
Second, as time wore on, it felt a bit rude going around to hopeful (mostly Democrat) people I knew and doing what I wanted to do: screaming 'Wake the fuck up, you are about to lose your country.' I noticed in my times living in the States that even a 'leftist Democrat' absolutely hates a foreign person levelling any criticism, even based in objective fact, against the American project. My primary goal when living in America was survival, and part of that meant making myself a small target and remaining agreeable.
(This is a non sequitur, but going out and travelling to different places where I live is very easy because of distance + price. There is a very low barrier to entry, and people come back with a diverse view of governance, things they liked about other societies and cultures, things they appreciated about their own. I found that Americans who had the privilege to go other places were much less reflexively defensive about American greatness. But this was by no means universal, with some of the most Bernie/AOC supporting wealthy liberals getting the most upset when I would literally agree with their points about what was wrong with America. It was frustrating, confusing, and depressing. Finding out that some of them didn't even vote because Harris wasn't 'good enough' was infuriating.)
I'm sorry for the loss of your country.
What grammatical tense make sense? As @Akir says, we had been losing America (Past Perfect Progressive Tense), we are seeing the loss in real time (present), and we will continue to be losing more of it every day (Future Progressive Tense) at least for a while.
But we, as in the world community plus Americans, have not yet lost America in the past complete sense. It's not my place to tell Americans whether and how to fight: we've never seen a Western, fully democratic world power go this way before. Fighters will lose jobs, might be arrested, and even jailed. They might be physically hurt and might have loved ones hurt. No actions, even legally protected ones, are safe anymore.
And yet ..... And yet. Those who live in places where those right have never been guaranteed, who don't even have the paper legal rights, still fight. Those citizens who don't have a government that pretends to care, whose police and armies grew up in tyranny, still fight.
Not speaking to you personally because I don't know your risks and I certainly want you in particular to be safe. But I hope the American people fight for their freedom instead of all quietly going under.
They linked a video and I was expecting more - anything about Kirk directly - but nope. Just that and he mocks Trump's response to reporter and Fox morning show hosts about Kirk's death which was to basically ignore the question and talk about a ballroom they're building.
They're literally embedding party censors in media companies, so yeah. That's one of the parts of the new TikTok deal (besides a handout to Oracle): a government appointed member of the board.
[...]
CBS was inflicted with "government oversight" in a similar fashion. (Notably, the son of Oracle CEO, who is now the richest person in the world, is also involved in the Paramount/CBS deal.)
ABC doesn't have one yet, but it's cells result of the government throwing their weight around here.
Without irony, America is now behaving more like a wacky dictatorship than China. At least China's brutal circle of old men can agree on economic progress and stability whenever it doesn't conflict with party rule. America is punching down less hard on dissenting citizens so far : no jail, no mock trials. Now is the last call for citizenry action before the regime can consolidate military police
Right before the main part about TrumpA few days prior he even says he can't fathom how there are people celebrating Charlie Kirk's death.This rant was so innocuous.
Editing my comment, I was confusing the two videos, there was a video here starting around 16 seconds where he talks about it.
Do you have a timestamp? I watched the beginning of the video again and didn't find that part. Maybe I missed it.
I was mistaken, it was from a video a few days prior, can be seen here starting around 16 seconds for context and he says it shortly after.
I will edit my comment to mention that it was in a video a few days prior, but the sentiment is the same.
Thanks for following up!
Is this a joke in bad taste or something? I thought one of their slogans was "make comedy legal again"
But more importantly, this isn't even "Mr Trump didn't like the joke, let's fire Kimmel to appease him", it was FCC putting pressure to fire him, right? Like wtf, a government body censoring a private entity is straight up in violation of the first amendment.
I don't live in the US but it really feels like this government can get away with anything
The last few years have shown that a lot of our protections, when tested, aren't really there. It's scary.
Conservatives found out after the courts counted to 3 nothing happens. It's now a toddler on full rampage with one parent wringing hands over "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" and the other actively enjoying the spectacle
It's not a bad taste joke. "Make comedy legal again" wasn't about this sort of thing; it was about not letting people talk back to comedians when they made trans or ableist or racist jokes. Marc Maron has a bit on single issue voting which is scathing and angry and fair warning: uses an ableist slur as the punchline, but really sums it up.
It wasn't about making comedy legal again, it was about removing cultural pushback against middle aged white men who want to say awful things to the people they hate.
This is feeling genuinely scary in a "first they came for" sort of way. I believe Robert Reich framed this as escalation from Phase 1 of Trump harassing his enemies and focusing on high profile universities with DEI and pressing immigrant communities to pivoting to Phase 2 now to control of/coercion over the press, education more broadly, and targeting citizens' rights explicitly.
He certainly said it more eloquently than me and I'm probably fumbling it. But what comes next? When will enough be enough?
More enemies, more targets, more distractions so that the Epstein ship doesn't sail.
I hate to say it, but look at Israel and Russia.
These are countries with two leaders in desperate need of an offramp, because without one they'll keep doubling down.
It doesn't feel like just "more distractions" but "more control" and in a very dangerous way.
Absolutely. Wishing that any and all Americans having brave conversations keep their digital footprints limited and their personal information off the internet. It's scary stuff.
This is putting my stomach in knots. What can we do? I always vote, donate, beg my family not to vote republican, and beg my non-voting friends to vote. It feels like all of that effort was wasted when republicans get elected anyway.
At this point, genuinely, survive. Do what you can for the people near you, but take care of yourself.
We can't stop the ship from going down from where we stand. Just try to keep your head above water, look for the helpers, do the best you can locally. The big picture just isn't even worth focusing on at this point. Not as something we can do anything about.
Cling tight to community. Shelter and help each other, share resources and information, organise. Grassroots political resistance starts with groups of people coming together just to survive and pull through. And don't lose hope.
This means the only late night shows with any future are The Tonight Show and Late Night, if we’re keeping track.
This is a guy that Disney had relied on for decades to promote their films, their tv shows. They had him host the Oscar’s twice, they had his show cover the Oscar’s. And they just threw him like that.
Makes me wonder if these CEOs/corporations are really just that scared of the Trump regime, or if the regime has something compromising on them. It's looking more and more like the first option, which seems the more terrifying of the two...
Edit: I'm seeing now that the Trump regime was threatening to take their FCC broadcasting license if they didn't fire Kimmel. This is definitely terrifying.
They might also be somewhat aligned with Trump. Billionaires looking out for billionaires.
Almost certainly true, but I would've thought Kimmel was pulling in enough money for them to not care about that. I guess billionaires are the only ones with real class consciousness.
The crazy thing is the network doesn't actually have a broadcasting license, all the individual stations on that network that transmit radio waves are the ones who hold individual FCC licenses. FCC Commissioner Brendan Carr is downright evil. He was a contributor to Project 2025 and he's been perfectly happy to leverage the FCC's regulatory power to shakedown companies; ABC, CBS/Paramount, NBC/Comcast, NPR/PBS/CPB, Verizon, and Dish have all gotten screwed over for DEI, programming content, or in the case of Dish, being a competitor to Musk. Like other federal agencies like the DoJ, FBI, and ICE, the FCC has been weaponized as Trump's personal retribution and revenge tool.
It mostly comes down to self-preservation. Orangina has openly talked about shutting down media organizations (or at the very least, making it effectively impossible for them to operate). It wouldn’t surprise me if he has dirt on the companies (and he could get some pretty easily). And a lot of American political journalism is access-based, almost to the point of being gossip for nerds. Piss off your source too much, you don’t get more info. This is all on top of the greatest upheaval to media since the invention of the printing press: the internet.
I don't think it is really even that they have dirt. The administration has shown they are happy to just make stuff up and take action unilaterally, then wait for that to catch up to them later on months or years later after long drawn out fights. By which time the damage is already done.
Just yesterday Trump threatened to go after ABC after a reporter asked him about Bondi's recent comments about prosecuting hate speech.
Yeah frankly it seems like a convenient excuse to end an unprofitable show while mitigating a ton of political risk from the administration at the same time.
Not an unexpected choice from a corporation, but the fact that this administration's crackdowns on free speech are being priced into the business strategies of some of our largest companies is terrifying.
This is the chilling and self-reinforcing effect of fascism straight up. The corporations believe the administration has the power to police speech, so now by demonstration and matter of corporate risk tolerance they do.
One could see this is as the tragedy of a largely private media system in the US as well. If your big tent pole cultural institutions hinge on ongoing, top-level popularity, what's keeping the companies that fund them from moving with the times.
Sure, you could say that going with the times is the natural thing to do, but without traditions, what's left?
This is why so many countries have strong, publicly funded media with shows that run for decades and decades, and help to keep the national identity from caving in on itself during periods like this.
That Colbert and Kimmel have been pulled offstage by a novelty sized hook is a damn shame if you ask me, and I don't even live there.
The charitable case could be made that late night broadcast isn’t worth it in the age of evergreen streaming and short form. You could make that case with Colbert because the economics weren’t there, but yeah, this is pretty brutal.
Tbh I wouldn't care if all the late night shows bar LWT were axed, because I find them extremely cringeworthy and avenues for celebrities to grift movies and products. I also find Kimmel himself quite hard to like as a host. But the reasoning here is such obvious BS.
Yeah it's not about the virtue of late night shows or Kimmel himself, it's the federal government restricting speech, the pressure on media companies and the rolling over and giving up by said companies.
It’s odd that this belly showing is happening now when during his term we got a whole lot of “Democracy Dies in Darkness” stuff. Kimmel himself was promoted as an anti-Trump figurehead. But now during the second term, which is by all accounts much worse, we don’t get any of that
It's the escalation - it's got to be illegal to pull someone's FCC license over this. It's also how long of harassment, lawsuits, death threats, etc. so instead you give in I guess.
It is in fact darkness now it feels
It may be illegal but does that doesn't matter anymore right? I am not all that knowledgeable about the legal system over there nor am I American, but.. even if lawsuits and court cases happen from this, the system is so extremely slow that it will be many months (years?) before anything comes of it. And even if there was a way to get a quick ruling, it would just be overturned because the supreme court is also corrupt to the core. It's becoming clear as day to me that they get what they want 90% of the time.
That's essentially what I was saying, while it has to be illegal, how many months of the illegal retaliation plus the harassment at all levels are you willing to deal with
In his first term, Trump was a joke candidate who unexpectedly won and didn't know what to do with it. This time around he's very clearly been given support, an agenda (Project 2025) with steps to carry out, and subordinates who are ideologically motivated and relatively unified (different grops being unified in one of two or three mutually contradictory directions).
capitalism will always favor the status quo. Rather thank rock the boat, they're just gonna push for whatever allows them to keep making money. There no principles at work here.
How about Last Week Tonight? HBO really lets John Oliver go for it.
This was brought up on a different thread. But it’s really not the same. Different format, lack of interviews, and only once a week.
Furthermore, HBO is not transmitted over FCC-licensed TV stations.
Although he's part of that crew (Strike Force Five ⚡️), I think Oliver is in a different category PR-wise. HBO isn't broadcast, even though that matters far less in the streaming age.
It really shows the risk involved for those on Trump and this movement's bad side.
And it's only September of year one. (Sorry for the reminder)
Rough year for James "Baby Doll" Dixon
The Kimmel timeslot is going to be filled by a Sinclair special about Kirk
I hope this makes the reality of the situation plain for some of the more 'centrist' or 'I'm not into politics' Americans.
I think this is point 4 on Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism essay.
I think many thought that, because a Goebbels-like figure hadn't stepped in to nationalise the media, that the media landscape in the US was completely different to 1930s Germany.
Having studied the period extensively at a postgraduate level, these are the exact tactics that were used. Frighten businesses into compliance, until they are expressing the party line because not doing so carries frightening penalties.
The Sinclair special is a particularly obvious and callous attempt at point 11.
Seems like at least half a dozen of these points are fulfilled now.
Struggling to understand point 11 though:
Anyone can help me understand what "educated to become a hero" means?
I interpret hero as "someone willing to die for the cause" whatever the cause is.
So you tell people that as long as they're pushing the ideology the government espouses, should they die they're a martyr and a saint, should they " stand up" and chase down immigrants or sue someone for DEI, they're one of the good guys
What's Sinclair's relationship with Disney and ABC?
Sinclair owns a bunch of local ABC affiliate stations (they were the ones responsible for mandating that creepy "This is extremely dangerous to our democracy" script on dozens of local news channels).
Oh I know who Sinclair is. But I don't know how they have a say in how Disney runs ABC or suggest content.
They told ABC they wouldn't air Kimmel on their affiliate stations, which is a lot of them
The thing is, as others have pointed out, what Kimmel said wasn't even mildly incendiary. I don't think this was even about Charlie Kirk, though he makes a convenient smokescreen.
I think the real problem was that Kimmel followed that statement with a clip of Trump's response to the question of how he was coping with Kirk's assassination... with an indifferent boast about how great the new ballroom renovation is going to be. Kimmel showed that Kirk's death is just a political football in the hands of a narcissist sociopath, and worse... the audience was laughing at Trump. So Kimmel had to go. We're not in "free speech" times anymore. The gloves are off.
I just realized what this situation reminds me of. It's the scene of Stephen Fry's late night talk show host character making light of the dear leader (and immediately afterward having his home raided by black-armored goons who "disappear" him in the night) in V For Vendetta. I mean, thankfully Kimmel only got fired. Not that real life would play out just as the movie does, but I have yet to see any indication that this administration would NOT stoop to the same kinds of violent tactics. ICE is literally doing exactly the same thing to immigrants as we speak, just swap the black bags for zip cuffs. I haven't seen this movie in many years (it came out in the 9/11 GWB era) but the parallels to our present moment are giving me shivers.
I definitely thought about V for Vendetta as soon as I heard the jokes about Trump's response. Thanks for highlighting and linking it
It’s funny, I was really into that movie when it came out in 2005. The timing was right as the ugly side of American anti-terror military adventurism was coming to light. This was before Chelsea Manning but we were learning about the horrors of Guantánamo Bay and Abu Ghraib. I was a young republican reckoning with what my post-9/11 politics had wrought and trying to figure out where I belonged, ideologically, next (that would lead me to Ron Paul a few years later, but that’s another story). V For Vendetta spoke my language as a 20-something budding libertarian male.
I have it on DVD around here somewhere. Haven’t watched it in years because the rise of the alt-right knuckle draggers drove me (mercifully) out of libertarianism. I’ve spent years souring on the movie because that’s just not me anymore, and since the Obama era that kind of dystopia has seemed silly and ungrounded. Also I think I just generally aged out of the Wachowskis’ stylized badass ultraviolence. Anyway, in my memory the movie is super cringe now.
But maybe it’s due for a rewatch. Digging up those clips reminded me of some good parts I’d forgotten, and like I said, it’s SURPRISINGLY relevant today.
Edit: I completely forgot to mention that Anonymous co-opting the V mask also contributed to the cringe factor for me. I was just unable to separate the character from 4chan edgelords for the longest time.
I've always been a fan of dystopian fiction, so I enjoyed it from a different angle. I rewatched it maybe a year or so ago, and there are definitely some things I don't like as much but the core story rings true to me. I like Alan Moore's graphic novel less but I tend to like the adaptations of his work more than his work itself.
Keeping this strictly focused on the entertainment aspect, you gotta feel bad for Kimmel, who campaigned for Colbert's Emmy, only to have the same thing happen a few days later.
I gotta say though, its pretty wild seeing so many people suddenly act like they care about the Jimmy Kimmel show. I dont think Ive ever seen someone talk about the show without dunking on it until this week.
Jimmy Kimmel sucks. His show is unfunny, and I got sick of basically all late night back during Trump's first presidency when most of their writers apparently put their feet up on their desks and just relied on the same handful of "orange man bad" jokes every night for years.
I don't care about Jimmy Kimmel specifically going off the air. If his show got cancelled because of low ratings, I'd probably be happy. I care that Donald Trump can just decide he doesn't like a show and the next day it's taken off the air.
Given that we live in a supposedly democratic society, having direct control of the media means you get to be a dictator. You have the power to directly pull the levers of public opinion and literally do whatever you want.
As I said above
We're not defending a show or person we love, we're defending the concept of a free and independent media.
Well I guess we will see how long that lasts. Assuming people havent already gotten bored and moved on.
As a non Kimmel fan I feel bad for him yeah, he's got his family and this is his career. To be canceled, and immediately unlike Colbert with a free year to go hard, is a rougher deal too.
But professionally, his show would not have won this year over Colbert's, so his billboard for Colbert is a clever advertising tactic for his own show.
Musk has offered to pay the legal fees for anyone fired from their job over something they've said in public, right? Holding my breath to see him rush to Kimmel's defence, as well as the defence of everyone else who has been fired over voicing their opinions of the recently killed fascist.
I hate it when I agree with Tucker Carlson about anything: Tucker Carlson says Trump administration is using Charlie Kirk’s killing to trample First Amendment.
People, please just don't complain on social media.
A media company like ABC is very sensitive to public opinion.
Please contact them to tell them what you think.
According to Duck A.I.:
https://support.abc.com/hc/en-us?return_to=%2Fhc%2Frequests
I never really watched Jimmy Kimmel's late night show but I remember him from old shows like "Win Ben Stein's Money" and "The Man Show". Adam Carolla was also on The Man Show, and used to be on the radio with Kimmel. I guess he and Kimmel are friends in spite of their (currently) opposite political leanings. I used to listen to Carolla's podcast for a while until his "grouchy but funny old man" persona slid into "Trumpy right wing unfunny authoritarian". (This coincided with his involvement with Dennis Prager).
Carolla is the kind of guy that would rant about how comedians should be able to say whatever they want. So I wondered if Carolla had anything to say about this situation, and I found This article on Cracked which shows he is just not really giving an opinion. That's less disappointing than I expected, I guess, but also shows how the most we can hope for from most conservatives on the current admin is "only slightly hypocritical".