Advice for dealing with racist/pro-Donald Trump family?
*TRIGGER WARNING: Racist and Anti-LGBTQ topics contained below with hurtful language *
Hello all,
TL;DR: I am wondering if there's any generally recommended resources, books, or general advice (peer-reviewed research would be ideal) on dealing with racist, close-minded family after you have made the transition to more progressive worldviews? I don't really like my family these days because of their Trump support as well as their generally close-minded, reality-denying views. It's weighing on me, because I miss having some sort of good connection with them like I used to. Their health is starting to decline, but I've gotten to the point that I don't really like them that much, and I haven't been going to see them. These two parts of me are kind of at odds with each other, and I'm struggling to find a balance.
Background & Context: I (33M) and I grew up in a rather conservative family (2 older brothers), to the point that a "light" level of racism was generally accepted and talked about in the family, and as an example, jokes using the N-word with the hard R were told by my dad and grandparents semi-regularly. I say "light" racism because we don't have a family history of racial violence or owning slaves (we're descendants of 1900's European immigrants, mostly.) I also think my family generally supported the Civil Rights Act back in the day. As a result, I grew up finding racist and gay jokes funny and frequently repeated them, and generally had a close-minded approach to the world before I went to college - but I never truly wished anyone any ill will. I got along well with my family, and while we were never super close, I at least talked to my family about stuff but we never really shared emotions or talked about depression with each other. None of us ever really learned how to deal with their emotions and talk about them. My family never traveled, either, so I never got out of my home state till I was in high school, and it was of my own volition. My parents are also conservative Christians, so they have generally anti-LGBTQ views. My mom calls LGBTQ people "abominations" per the bible, for example. It's disgusting.
Once I got out into the real world working with people of other cultures and befriending them, my worldviews began to change. Especially once I went to college and started working in scientific research, wherein your critical thinking and objectivity are especially stressed, I started to pivot more and more to progressive views. Beyond that, the more I saw that data generally supported progressive views and policies, I started to disagree harder and harder with my parents on political topics. Additionally, I slowly lost my faith, and started to become more and more annoyed by my mother citing the bible as a reference for topics such as LGBTQ marriage rights. I now commonly refer to myself a recovering Catholic.
And then Trump happened. Honestly, in his first run, I could understand why people voted for Trump. They were tired of traditional politics and feeling like it wasn't working for them, especially in midwest and blue collar areas, so they figured "fuck it, throw some chaos into the system." But after COVID and January 6th? I just can't fathom still having a SHRED of support for that disgusting shell of a man. And yet my parents do. My mom watches Newsmax, thinks COVID vaccines are deadly, and thinks the 2020 election was stolen. She thinks Biden was kidnapped and was being impersonated by the Deep State. I can't. I just can't with her. It's all she wants to talk about, and my dad won't say anything to her about how fucking crazy the shit she spouts is.
I was also close to one of my brothers for many years, as we went to concerts and played games together mostly. We just "click" when it comes to gaming together, and it feels seamless and fun to play with him in a way that it doesn't with anyone else I've ever played with. But then, politics comes up. My brother would probably be aptly described as an incel, in that he reads 4chan still, and also has some batshit crazy views. One, for example, is that he doesn't think the races should mix, because something along the lines of black and white genes don't work as well together. He has straight up said that to me, and I regularly wonder if I should cut off contact with him for that alone. He often blames women in sexual assault cases or characterizes them as gold diggers. A part of me wonders if I am doing a disservice to the aforementioned groups by even still associating with him after saying things like that. If I am also doing a disservice to myself by even sometimes associating with someone who has such an awful worldview?
And herein lies my dilemma: I haven't gone to see my family in over 6 months, now (I live <30 mins away). My parents' health is declining - it is likely that one of them is going to die in the next 5-10 years, and yet I don't even want to go be around them, especially my mom. I still game online with my brother, but this dilemma is slowly eating away at me.
But also? I feel a deep empathy and sorrow for them, to the point that I'm choked up as I'm writing this post because they are lonely people who, in my opinion, have been grossly manipulated and mislead throughout their lives. I wouldn't want someone to give up on me, as I feel I am doing to them by avoiding them. I also used to be deeply entrenched in close-mindedness, and I wouldn't be where I'm at without people who kept trying to convince me of a better path. But the other part of me thinks: Is there a line somewhere? At some point, do you become too deeply entrenched that I can't convince you out of it? What do I do at that point? How do I even define that point?
Are there any resources or books on this topic? Are there any objective things I can do to try and improve this situation and feel better about it? I have spoken with a therapist about this in the past, but I wouldn't describe the feedback I got as very helpful. I would like to go see a therapist again, partially about this, but it's so damn expensive thanks to the American healthcare system. Any input anyone has is appreciated, even if it's anecdotal. This post is also partially just cathartic to write out as it is also to ask for feedback. Thank you.
Part of my job is sales, and so sometimes I will get a customer in the store wearing a hat or article of clothing that advertises trump. You can't ask them to cover it up or take off the hat (even though it's usually people old enough to be brought up to know it's rude to wear hats indoors), because it's super easy to make them feel unwelcome because of their political views.
The thing I do is simply ignore the words on their clothing. I don't talk about politics. And I'm good enough that I can get a pretty good rapport with them, with plenty of jokes going around between us.
But the thing is that if I'm ignoring something they feel strongly enough to plaster over their bodies, it's impossible to have a real relationship with them. As much as I'm ignoring them, I know deep down I feel disgusted with them because they are making the world a worse place to live in. They are people who not only endorse an autocrat, but have invested money in their campaign. I might be able to keep up a business relationship, but I sure as hell wouldn't be able to turn it into a personal relationship, even though they are perfectly nice people otherwise.
Here are the questions you have to consider for yourself:
If your answers to those last two questions end up being "no", then don't pursue the relationship.
One thing you might have bearing on your mind is filial duty. And I completely understand that, having had those same thoughts when my parents were dying, but I think it's a result of bad framing. It's true that your parents gave you a lot and it was a big sacrifice for them, but rather than it being something you owe them back for, it was simply what they owed you for bringing you into the world.
The way you talk about your parents, I think they may have not actually changed. The way they expressed themselves changed to fit the times, but the fundamental person behind them hasn't. But you have. You grew up and realized that the things they believed in and did were wrong. There was no time when you lost the parents you grew up; it was the time when you lost your innocence and naivete. But even if they had changed, would it make a difference? They became who they are by their own choice, and nothing you do will ever make them change their minds.
I realize that this might come across as me implying that you should cut them out of your life. I'm not. I don't know you or your parents, but even if I did, the only one who can make that call is you. I just hope that these frames help you see the situation a little clearer. I had a pretty similar thing happen to me to much more disasterous effect with my father when I was still a kid, so I have had a lot of time to think about it.
There is saying going around social media about dealing with magas. Roughly paraphrasing:
The best solution I have seen is to let such people know that you don't want to talk about politics.
Of course, they might not cooperate.
I have a life long friend and mentor who Ive known since I was 15ish and their health is declining but I just cant bring myself to maintain a friendship with them.
The most menacing part about Trumpim is how many topics of conversation are off limits now. I cant talk about the weather, traffic, my friends wedding (gay), my friends two year old (two moms), anyone who’s recently been sick because we’re all mad about the healthcare system but can’t agree on who to blame (but its probably not the fault of the immigrants….)
So…. We just stopped talking.
They were over at my house the other day and ended up ranting about how those damn liberal railroad construction workers (???) are “dumb as hell”. I don’t even know how that topic came up.
Sorry to hear that.
Years ago I found my best friend from childhood. He had become a bat-shit libertarian, Rand/Ron Paul style. Like your situation, every topic of conversation was a landmine. I've had good work relationships with republicans, because we both knew how to talk about other things and how not to politicize everything.
I think at one point both your worldviews differ so much you just have no common ground to even have a conversation about.
For one person the weather is just the weather, for another it’s some grand conspiracy. At that point there is little left in a relationship.
Even acknowledging that fact is reason for argument. That you “aren’t seeing it” or whatever. Sometimes relationships just don’t work out and it’s good if they end.
What if this is what they want, though? The people spreading this disinformation want to separate and alienate us because that will make us weaker as a country.
I think the alienation is a side effect, not the goal.
And sometimes you have to simply choose what is good for yourself. You can’t always carry the responsibility for the country or even the world.
Have you ever met someone who was a former conservative? Former evangelical? Do you really think reason wasn't the means by which they deconstructed their old world view?
Only after their emotional attachments to those views were broken by some sort of shock or other non-reasoned revelation.
The exception to this is if they're quite young and being exposed to reason in this way for the first time.
I will add to the other responses my own anecdotal experience. I was basically homophobic from my upbringing. It wasn't until I befriended someone who was gay in my first high school job and I didn't initially know until they told me later in the friendship. At that point, it became increasingly cognitively dissonant for me to have homophobic ideals or say such things because of this friendship. This forced me to resort to reason to try and resolve this battle within myself at the time. That then led me to first start questioning my religion, because the Catholic church obviously doesn't support the LGBTQ community. Again, reason was what I resorted to over time, and that culminated after years in me giving up my faith entirely. It was a domino effect.
But without that friend, I would not have questioned my homophobic nature, and I fear I would have become more entrenched in it over time. I think that's probably because it was painful for me to admit those things about myself. It was painful to realize that I had been hurting others with the things I was saying, and that those things were literally natural for me to say. Without that friendship, I would have chosen to avoid that pain rather than confronting myself.
I will say that after having done multiple of these confrontations of myself over wrong views over the years, they do seem to get easier over time. For example, I struggle to understand or connect with the trans community (as in I struggle with the idea of wanting to change my gender or that my pronouns should be different.) However, I still support them and have really tried to remain open-minded and not harm their community like the right wing political groups do. And the idea of befriending someone who is trans one day does not scare me like befriending someone who is gay did back when I was young. I look forward to being able to better understand and connect with their community, should I be lucky enough for that to happen.
This is off topic but I want to say that this is natural for cisgendered people - the mere thought of losing intrinsic body characteristics that you identify with, that make you you, is a pretty good indicator you aren't any flavor of non-binary and certainly not transgendered.
I've helped a few people (who suddenly had to confront trans personhood more personally than they ever thought they would have to due to family members transitioning in one form or another) by really getting them to engage with the visceral sense that they wouldn't want to change their characteristics and roleplay that level of certainty and emotion as if you don't want those characteristics. I freely admit it didn't help everyone in that situation but if nothing else I found it was an interesting thought experiment to dig into myself and help understand both trans people and the people who were struggling to understand trans people.
Last thought on building understanding for a trans viewpoint*: I read a story by someone who was closeted (40y ago) given their age and more recently (25y ago) out as gay listening to a local talk at an LGBT group by a trans person. The talk was world-changing for this person because they suddenly realized that what they felt and had known their whole life had a name, and it wasn't the box they had squeezed into for decades (being gay), instead their body didn't match who they were as a person. Hormones, surgery, and a name change later and they are loving their life more than ever finally feeling like they fit their body.
To your original post, I've come down on the side of "don't talk politics" with those similar to your situation. I did argue back with other family who supported someone under a Democratic ticket who had racist policies (and later had a "me too" moment and shunned out of office) and it didn't go well in the moment so we just moved on to other topics. Later when the politician was viewed without the positive media buzz the family member admitted that their support was misplaced and they should've thought more about what I had been saying (and I certainly should've been calmer in my denouncing the politician).
*:
Not saying you're not understanding since you obviously are across all your comments, just that it was an anecdote in my own journey of better understanding other people's lived experiences.
I think you were being kind and trying to empathize when you said:
It struck me that I can't feel that at all. Maybe I'm the outlier here, but nothing about my gender or body characteristics feels like an intrinsic part of my identity. If I could easily press a button and change my bodies sex, I would probably do it. Just to experience something different and get a new perspective. But I feel like it wouldn't fundamentally change who I am. Mostly it would just change the way people treat me.
I support trans people. In general if someone wants to do something that badly we should let them and help them when we can.
But I also struggle to connect with some trans people. For very different reasons than you were saying.
I've always felt like gender was a social construct; like race, or star signs. Biological sex is a real thing, some people can make eggs, some people can fertilize them. Then there are associated statistical correlations in hormones, muscle mass, body shape etc. but on an individual level there is such a wide range within each sex that it seems pointless to differentiate between them unless we are specifically dealing with reproduction or health issues.
In "Come as you are" by Emily Nagoski. She makes the point that men are on average around 4 inches taller than women. But if you get 100 random men and look at their heights there will probably a much larger range, likely at least 12". And obviously there are plenty of examples of women who are taller than men. So I feel like there is no reason to consider gender when dealing with height. I think it's the same for most of the traits that society tries to split the genders into.
Since I was young, I always felt like it was silly how segregated by gender our society is. Why do we need different words, different bathrooms, etc. it feels like it just limits us.
From that perspective I especially support trans people because I feel like every controversial issue that gets brought up around trans people highlights how flawed and ridiculous our segregated society is. Just have one bathroom for everyone! Problem solved!
It feels like trans people are going through so much struggle and I think in the end their hardship and bravery will be a benefit to us all. Making our civilization more diverse and open. Which I think increases our resiliency and potential overall.
My problem is when I hear some trans people say things like 'I am a woman born in a man's body'. I just can't understand what they mean. How can you feel like you are a gender? I'm not saying they are wrong. But I have never experienced any kind of gender identity that I can feel internally, like something that is intrinsic to me beyond physical appearance.
I look like a man, so society treats me like man. When people assume things about me because of my gender or make some comment about how Im not conforming to my gender. Im mostly amused or at worst mildly annoyed. I'm lucky enough that I can live with that and it doesn't cause me any significant stress or feeling of wrongness. I can understand that some people want to dress, speak or act in ways that society won't accept unless they look like a certain sex. And that makes their life very difficult. That sucks and we should change, everyone should feel comfortable to live their life however they want and their sex shouldn't be a factor. You shouldn't have to choose a gender at all. What if you want to talk "like a man" but dress "like a woman"? Even asking that question seems to illustrate how pointless gender is.
But when you say I AM X gender even though I was born with the opposite sexual organs, isn't that just buying into and reinforcing the social construct that is gender?
Do they really feel so confident that there is a switch in their head that is definitely switched to one or the other? Or is it a defense mechanism? Is saying 'I am this gender' just easier than trying to explain they want to act in a certain way that society won't let them?
I struggle to understand a thing that is thankfully deconstructing gender, yet at the same time seems to be obsessed with gender and basing peoples identity on it.
Sorry to dump all that on you but I think it's been bouncing around in my head needing to be put into words and your comment jostled it out.
I think the problem is that we tend to think of gender as one thing, when it's actually countless things that often correlate.
To go back to biological sex, it's not really one thing. It's whether you produce ova or sperm or neither. It's whether you have xx chromosomes, xy chromosomes, xxy chromosomes, xxx chromosomes, or something else. It's your genital and reproductive structural configuration, which can be clear in at least two ways or ambiguous in many different ways. It's your hormone levels, which can be all over the map. Many of these things are decided at conception, some in the womb, and others can be influenced by your environment.
If all of those things go one way unambiguously but one of them is ambiguous or goes the other way, we tend to "round up" to the nearest sex and treat Your Sex as one thing, when it's actually several.
Gender is like that, but way more complicated because of the social structures that we've built around it, and because most of it happens in our brains which we don't understand all that well. Some aspects of it are probably innate to you, and you'd still feel it if you never met another person. Some aspects are probably influenced by the society around you. Which are which is impossible to say and probably differs from person to person.
I have concerns about the phrase "a woman in a man's body" too, but these are people that have been marginalized by the gender binary and they're trying to explain the experience of that. They didn't create that binary, they don't benefit from it, and I can't police their language to tell them not to reinforce it. It's an imperfect way for them to explain how all of the different parts of them align or don't, after they've done their best to "round up" in the way that's expected of them.
Great comment and it touches on something I didn't want to bring up in my original comment (but should be mentioned!) and that is non-binary and gender fluidity. I use those terms because they are more concise than what you've written but I think you've done a better job capturing the option of a kind of 'agender' (like asexual) as well as various mixes of gendered traits.
Personally I feel much as you do; gender and traits and expression are needlessly linked in a way that hampers us as humans but I also understand that it's the paradigm so many people view the world through.
Why is it the default? I lean towards tribalism as an answer and that can be good and bad - a tribe can protect its members, especially valuable to those who are vulnerable, but it also others those outside and inherently risks conflict when none is warranted. I also feel like there's something about natural safe spaces experienced by the majority (cisgendered) where everyone identifies similarly and outsiders can stumble in but I haven't explored that line of thought enough to really have figured how it fits in.
I identify as agender for many of the very reasons you've listed here. I simply do not experience gender feelings.
It's not confidence, it's a feeling.
I think you need to take a step back and look at other human behavior. Are there activities you participate in that make you happy? Make you sad? Anxious? Fearful? Do other humans have the same emotional reactions to these as you do? Do you question why someone might smile when they see a sunset? If someone likes a food that you don't, how do you feel about that? Do you wonder if they are lying to you, or do you accept that they feel differently about the same thing?
For many people gender is a feeling. Just like someone might feel happy when they smell a flower, some people feel manly when they hit the gym, or womanly when they care for someone. Gender feels don't have to be binary, either, and they can break societal norms and constructs. Just because most people find the smell of flowers pleasant and the smell of dead animals unpleasant, does not mean that there aren't individuals who have the opposite experience. Being a mechanic may feel feminine to some and wearing makeup might feel manly to others.
I've personally found that other social constructs are easier to frame as a feeling. Have you ever asked anyone what romance is? If not, I'd suggest spending the next couple of months asking people you know what romance is, just to hear the diversity of opinion. Romance is also a social construct, born from a feeling. I also don't personally experience romance as a feeling, but experience other feelings tangential to romance such as intimacy, love, and sexual attraction. Other social constructs for which we typically recognize a lot of diversity of opinion include justice, power, social hierarchies/status, taboos, friendship, money/wealth/worth, and authority. While you may not have feelings (or strong feelings) from some of these categories, some of them likely do inspire strong feelings in you for specific subjects.
It's important to note that social constructs are often a reflection of statistical norms on how humans are built and how humans experience the world as a sum of existing structures. Competition is often thought of as manly because men run on testosterone but also because society rewards their competition. Beauty is often thought of as womanly because estrogen makes your skin soft and hairless and society has decided that this is beautiful. These social constructs are sometimes reinforced because it's a representation of lived experience and emotions. If a woman derives pleasure out of taking care for others they are not necessarily buying into the social construct, but rather living their truth. The side effect of this is that this structure is reinforced on some level, but the same woman can work to deconstruct gender through other means or de-gender activities through other actions.
I guess that just doesn't match my anecdotal experience at all. Neither for myself or anyone I know.
Yes, there is often some non-rational impetus that causes one to examine their beliefs, but I think it's rare this is sufficient for a life-changing transformation. It's the result of this critical examination when one finds that the foundations of their belief set are massively lacking that leads to the transformation. But everyone is different, so these anecdotes may not be representative.
Also anecdotal, but it has never been reasoned arguments that broke through to any of the people I know in my life who have reversed course on ideological or religious issues. The common factor in all the transformations I have witnessed has always involved a personal connection, and some sort of shocking revelation making those people finally open their eyes to the horrible shit they were doing, saying, and supporting.
E.g. My racist grandfather being told he would never be allowed to see his newly adopted ethnic minority grandkids if he didn't stop his racist shit talking. My homophobic landlord who constantly ranted about the "gay agenda" being asked by me, "you know I'm not straight, right?", once I had finally had enough of his shit after years of quietly putting up with it. A bunch of my Catholic relatives (including my parents) ending their support of the church after learning about the horrible shit they did at the residential schools here in Canada, and their shuffling of rapist priests around the world to avoid the local authorities.
None of them were reasoned out of their previous positions, and none of them likely ever could have been.
I question, somewhat idly, whether many of these people genuinely changed anything other than who they do the action to/in front of. I guess we can't ever really know without some level of performative action indicating otherwise.
Personally, I think the path is both emotional and rational/logical. I do think it starts with a shock (meeting a gay person) and that shock can introduce logical inconsistencies (i.e. - I hold that all gays are evil people, but John is quite nice and gay. The two logical paths are that maybe [all] gays aren't evil or maybe John is so evil he's lying.) There have been some questionable studies that indicate lower creativity in conservatives and I wonder if what could be more implied is that there is less intellectual curiosity (not less intelligence but less curiosity of logical systems). Perhaps the individuals who "find their way out" are those who can respond to new, unexpected data by questioning the system they hold instead of the data itself.
I think it definitely starts out as simply performative for a lot of people, my own family members included. I doubt my grandfather suddenly stopped thinking awful things about minorities, he simply learned to keep his opinions about them to himself. Same goes for my former landlord. But I know/knew all of them quite well, even my former landlord. I ended up becoming close friends with my landlord's son, and spent a lot of time around him over the 8 years I was living there. So I can pretty confidently say that after a while both of them genuinely started to change their opinions, and realized how idiotic their prejudices were. That may not be true in all cases, but it has been in all the ones I've personally witnessed.
I largely agree with this, but I think you're downplaying the emotional impetus' role here. I agree that it's not sufficient, but I do believe it absolutely is necessary in the vast majority of cases. When confronted by evidence that the foundations of my beliefs were lacking prior to this emotional impetus, I eagerly argued against them and failed to consider them remotely deeply or critically. These types of controntstions made me more set in my beliefs, because I fully subscribed to the us vs them philosophies I was surrounded with.
Me and the very same friend who came out as gay and served as my emotional impetus to question my beliefs once gleefully planned to "argue with the evolutionists" at the natural history museum during our eighth grade field trip (for adult-me's sake, I'm so glad we didn't so I don't have to live with the memory of that cringe). If we'd gone through with that, our reasoning would absolutely not have been better than those of the adult museum staff we tried to argue with. But it wouldn't have mattered, because we were never open to the possibility of their being right in the first place.
Metaphorically, I'd liken it to breaking a waterproof seal. Yeah, the water is what causes the effects once it gets in there. But it's not going to get in there without breaking that seal. And I think quite a lot of people who believe things like this have a reason-proof seal.
I'm an ex-evangelical and reason wasn't what broke me out of my views. The reason I started questioning anything I was taught was empathy for a friend (raised in the same environment) who came out to me as gay. Once I was already questioning, reasoning helped me adopt more progressive positions, such as becoming pro-choice. But going from a True Believer to questioning my faith absolutely did not happen due to someone making reasoned arguments against it, and it never would've. I liked arguing.
The #1 reason that opens people to change their minds on the Big Ideas™ like that is a sudden emotional revelation of "Man, my fellow believers are all losers/loonies," not an in-depth consideration of theological arguments (in the example of a religious conversion).
I don't have any evidence based practices to suggest, but I wanted to voice some empathy to your situation. I grew up in a mostly similar situation and underwent mostly similar changes as a young adult transitioning to the real world and my first real career. Especially during COVID I had many painful conversations with family who largely didn't give a shit and still don't. But if I can offer a beacon of hope, things did eventually get better, and they can for you too. I think the blueprint of my situation is too fundamentally different from yours to offer any profoundly helpful advice. But, for what it's worth, I feel for you.
Thank you. It helps a bit to know others have found a way in similar situations. If I may ask, did you ever "give up" during your situation? Like not going to see your family for extended periods of time even though you easily could have?
Without going into to detail there were quite a few differences in my life that make my answer not too useful to you. I was a minor throughout my relationship with him and if I were able to leave any earlier, I absolutely would have. Years later I wrote him a long hand-written letter with all of my feelings and got a typed one paragraph response that said basically “That’s nice, we should get together some time.” He had serious mental issues, and was almost certainly dealing with them when I was a kid as well. So for me a lot of the time when I saw him it was against my will or at best after a lot of persuasion.
Wow, that's rough. I'm sorry you got such a response, you deserve much better.
But yeah, my parents don't really have that kind of situation. I can easily have intellectual discussions with my dad. And my mom, while perhaps showing signs of some kind of cognitive decline by falling further into MAGA craziness each year, can also still have perfectly normal conversations about cooking or gardening. As I mentioned in another comment, it's almost like it would be easier to decide if they did have more prominent issues. Also, I appreciate your thoughtful responses in this topic.
I can relate a lot to what you're going through. I come from a somewhat similar background (though more extreme) and went through similar growth that you describe. I didn't want to be a violent, racist, sexist, hateful neo-nazi. I was desperate to not become my father. So, after some growth I confronted my father about his extremist views. I knew when I did that at the time that I would never be able to have a peaceful conversation with him again. I had to do it though. I wanted to give him that chance to change. I didn't want to give up on him. He responded poorly - as expected - and I didn't talk to him again for the next 15 years. He died alone a couple years ago. Cutting off contact with my father was one the most painful things I've ever done - even though he was a terrible person. I'm glad I tried to give him that chance to change, but I can't say that you should do what I did. What was right for me may not be right for you.
I think it's great that you have empathy for your family - it speaks to your growth as a person. I would definitely advise talking to a therapist. That was a big part of how I was able to even have the courage to confront my father.
I also recommend asking yourself a few things. Do you feel like your family is a net positive in your life? Does your family respect your wants, needs, and desires? I would think about things like that before making a decision. The family we're born with isn't always the family we end up with. A lot of people build or find their own family.
Sorry for not responding earlier, the amount of responses and feedback in here has been a little overwhelming, honestly, and this topic is exhausting for me personally. I am sorry you had to go through that, though. That's heavy as hell, but I applaud you for having the courage to confront such a hateful part of your family and reject it. I'm not sure I'd have been as strong in that situation.
Regarding your questions:
But also, my family has never been very close. Emotionally, I wouldn't really say my needs have been met by them for the majority of my life. And I don't blame them for that - they never learned how to handle their own emotions and they were very mislead by society in that regard. I am still trying to learn how to handle my own even now.
Anyway, I think this response I've just written seems like pretty good evidence I need to talk with a therapist about this and other stuff in general. It's just that it's so fucking expensive I'm avoiding it. I can afford it, I'm just avoiding it.
It’s brave that you confronted your father. Shame it didn’t help, but you did your best!
I spent so much of Trump's first (and hopefully only) term trying to have civil discourse with the MAGA supporters in my circles. This included my Mother in Law, several coworkers I previously respected, and my own parents to a degree. I'm now exhausted. There is a point at which the other person needs to meet you in the middle, and you can't be held responsible for their unwillingness to help themselves.
My advice would be to set boundaries, and pay close attention to those that respect the boundaries. In cases where the line gets crossed repeatedly, it's sometimes best to just pull away from that relationship. In my own life, my parents have been pretty respectful of my boundaries, so we have settled into an agreement. We do sometimes dip into politics, but it is always civil, and I feel as though they are at least somewhat open to listen to differing points of view. My MIL however has not been so respectful, and as a result we don't talk much despite the fact that she's geographically our closest extended family.
Sounds like we grew up in a similar setting, though my parents don't lean into the racism/hate. I've been fortunate to find that my parents are just as flummoxed by the Trump thing as I was.
My in-laws, though are another matter. Pretty similar to what you described, plus my MIL is a textbook narcissist, and my FIL enables her behavior. If it was up to me, I probably would have no contact with them, but they aren't my parents. My wife experiences doubts similar to yours about feeling as though she's abandoned them.
@Tynted I second the advice about setting boundaries. I think all we can do in these settings to build bridges with our family is engage on the positive things/things you have in common and avoid the negative things.
This can be seen as enabling the hate, which is why a lot of people go no-contact or low contact. And I support that decision when people choose it.
But I think the harm we experience from engaging with toxic family has to be balanced with the harm of being cut off from your roots. Whether we like it or not, that's a deep wound as well. It also further isolates them inside their bubble, when we might be able to use our unique existing relationship to sway them from their current course.
The duality of this struggle is why I support my wife in trying to connect with her family in spite of their issues and the grief it causes us.
One resource I recommend for learning about boundaries is this book by Cloud and Townsend.
It's got a Christian framing, but the things it talks about are sound from a psychology perspective. I think you could benefit from it on your own, because ultimately boundary setting is about controlling your own behavior and setting limits in the ways you engage with others behavior. That is, you can't control what other people do.
That said, it might be a way to engage with your family about setting and respecting boundaries. I've had some success working through it with family members.
Edit: added some family background
Today, I read a useful take about how people find solace in awful conspiracy communities when they're under stress or in crisis.
It might help to understand that religions have been exploiting this tendency since the dawn of humanity. They provide irrational explanations for devastating emotional times because any explanation is better than the truth of shit just happening, or explanations that take years of study to understand. Religious community is better than facing fear, sickness, sorrow, and death alone.
I ran like I was on fire when my parents went down the Fox News rabbit hole, and I regret it. They were lonely and isolated, alienated from their kids, largely stuck at home due to my dad's paralysis. They could be horribly cruel, say the most vile racist and anti-LGBTQ things... and yet in between, they were so pathetic. Every time we did speak, it was a bitter argument. I was so deeply attached to being right, rather than continuing to demonstrate loving the parts of them that had shown me goodness and affection.
So I've thought and read about this a fair amount since; my parents passed away years before Trump happened. As has my spouse, who's a deeper thinker and more compassionate soul than I am. I highly recommend Anand Giridharadas' The Persuaders, because it analyzes how right-wing ideologues start with the personal [interview], instead of the intellectualized general of human rights, science, legislation, etc. By pretending concern about individual lives and feelings, the right wing creates a sense of relationship and trust, before spinning an ideological web.
You won't change your parents' minds by arguing with them. The focus has to be harm reduction, just like dealing with addiction. The harm reduction may be self-protection, if the cruelties you experience in being around them are unavoidable and unbearable. Nonetheless, you can rebuild a sense of relationship, and trust by giving your parents space to vent their feelings first, then focusing on concrete actions that show you care about them.
My spouse talked with a hardcore right-wing friend regularly during the worst of the pandemic. He routinely made time to get together and just talk. My spouse still authentically voiced his contrary beliefs, experiences, and facts, but only when he was given space to speak, not argumentatively. Over the course of months, he established enough trust with this friend that a simple question, "What have you got to lose?", was enough to persuade that friend to get COVID-19 vaccinations. It didn't change the friend's mind about much of the odious belief system that caused him to resist vaccination, but it did prevent him from getting COVID (again).
This is hard work - you shouldn't think badly if yourself if it proves impossible. But if you're determined, you can help prevent your family members from harming themselves and others - giving away their money to snake oil salespeople, refusing medical advice, keeping loaded firearms by the door or under pillows, and so on.
Wow, I'm sorry to hear about your situation with your parents - it sounds similar to me and mine, particularly my mom. I hope you have healed from the regrets you mentioned - I don't think many could have predicted that Fox News would eventually lead to something like what's happening today. The threat seemed so much less real before Trump.
I appreciate you sharing the reading recommendations and really appreciate sharing your advice and how your spouse has approached it. That is definitely hard work, but it inspires some hope.
My regrets also stem from the fact that they were lonely people to start with, lacking the consolations of strong faith or community. We were a tightly knit family when I was growing up (in many ways, too tightly - "codependence" might have been a better word), us against the world. It was particularly painful to see their decline into people they wouldn't have tolerated in their younger lives, pushing their loved ones even further away. Getting over those regrets took some years of therapy.
It's helpful to understand that there are no magic words which will fix people for certain. A therapist once said to me, "they're doing the best they can", and somehow, those words opened up room for forgiveness in my heart. All you can do is be there for your family, taking care of them, while finding ways to keep yourself whole.
I don't have any specific resources or research to recommend, but my wife is in a similar (though I think less extreme) situation with some members of her family. For example she and her sister have always been close, but her sister's political views have shifted pretty far right over time, and it caused a pretty big rift between them that reached a boiling point the first time Trump ran for president. Eventually they came to an agreement that the only way their relationship can continue on good terms is if they simply avoid talking to each other about politics and culture war topics entirely. It's worked out very well--they still talk all the time and go on trips together and enjoy each others company and conversation despite conflicting worldviews. Their mom has a similar agreement with my wife's sister that is working out well too.
I guess the catch there is that they both like each other and wanted the relationship to continue and are willing and able to avoid talking about the things that trigger each other. It almost certainly wouldn't work if they weren't both on board. I'm not sure how likely something like that would be to work between you and your family members, but maybe you could think about broaching the idea of something like that with them. If the answer is no, then there just may not be a way for you to maintain a healthy relationship with them (but at least you tried).
Sorry you're having to deal with that as well - I think there are a lot of us in the same boat. I was raised by a very conservative, very "Christian" family. To their dismay, I took the teachings of Jesus that they had been forcing down my throat since birth seriously - that is, to love people, treat them equally, etc. Unfortunately, it turns out they definitely don't believe any of that, and would rather choose Trump over first born oldest child. It had been building up for a while, but I could no longer bear to be in contact with people who don't believe in basic human rights, who believe the military should be sent in to kill peaceful protesters (even though they knew this included their own son), who believe it's ok to sexually assault women, who believe it's ok to to be bigot (also towards their own son, considering I'm technically disabled).
It was a hard choice, and I wish things never turned out like this. The last straw, however, was when I realized I would absolutely not feel safe with them even physically holding any future children I may have, let alone look after them or care for them in case anything happened. My long term partner is of Mexican ancestry with darker skin, and any children we might have would likely be on the darker side. It's a sad day when you truly comprehend just how much of a danger your parents may be to your child.
They likely won't take it well if you do cut them off completely, but from my experience, no matter how matter-of-factly you lay it out, they will refuse to comprehend it. You can send them a 10+ page document with multiple sources, including Trump's own words, and they likely won't even admit that they support that (if they're still putting up a pretense of decency). I don't think people in general are unable to change, but too many are completely unwilling to, so I would prepare for that.
I wish I had any actual advice to give. I wish things were different and there weren't so many of us going through this. In the end, whatever you decide, just know that it's them pushing you away by voluntarily giving up their humanity and decency. If you're like me, you'll likely feel guilty over this decision, and ruminate over it quite a bit - but would you blame someone for cutting contact with their Nazi supporting parents in the 1930s, especially if they or a loved one was a target of Nazis? I hate to be too hyperbolic in general, but I really don't think it's hyperbole in this case, and I think anyone who's seriously studied the rise of the Nazis can see the blatant parallels and borrowed tactics. Good luck with whatever you decide to do, and keep yourself and your loved ones safe above all else. Hopefully this election is the beginning of a peaceful end to all of this. Either way, we probably all will need some serious therapy.
I think many in this thread (myself included) have been hinting at this point, but you nailed it. In a lot of these cases, there is an asymmetry where one party is exercising a level of care and courtesy that is not being reciprocated. In these instances, the social contract is effectively null and void IMO, and the caring party is released of further responsibility to be present for the careless. This was definitely the case with my MIL, and once I realized she was not reciprocating I was more free to let go of the relationship without guilt.
I'm just thinking of those posts that show up sometimes, where the MAGA person is all "My children no longer talk to me, and they've never told me why" and then there's a bunch of probing and it turns out that, yes, the kids did tell them why, repeatedly, but the MAGA never heard them. :(
Yup, the "missing missing reasons", as I've heard them called. I'm sure my parents would say the same thing. It's like their brain just shuts off as soon as see any evidence of what they've actually done.
I'm putting this reply here to just say thank you to all of you who've responded, especially for the readings that were suggested to help on this topic. I really appreciate you all and your different takes. I will also put here that I suppose the struggle of this situation is that of balance. I've noticed there's (mostly) a combination of takes suggesting to 1) just not talk about politics or 2) lean towards cutting off contact.
The problem for me is, much like the real world, everything is much more grey area. In my post, I really only focused on the negatives of my situation, mostly to prevent the post from becoming unbelievably long and less understandable. In reality, my parents and brother have also done awesome things for me at times. My dad never said no to helping me fix something or my car when it broke down. My mom always tried to support me in her own way throughout my life, and I actually attribute her as the main reason I've grown up with a relatively strong set of morals. I've also seen my mom do really good things for other people. She also instilled me with a love of animals and a desire to protect them. My dad is the main reason my family is set up well financially and a good chunk of the reason I have a stable career.
This leads me to struggle immensely with the idea of cutting them off or even drawing any hard lines. Like, these people simultaneously have likeable, valuable traits, but also support organizations and people that do heinous things (e.g. the church and Israel.) It's like, if they could just be a little better, or a little bit worse, it would make the decision soooo much easier to make on how to handle the relationship with them.
But yet, another part of me feels that by continuing to go down the route of isolating only makes the problem worse. I also feel like many people doing this on a population scale can lead to such division as to lead to violence and war (when taken to the extreme.)
I don't really know where I'm going with this. This has been kind of stream of consciousness and I'm just putting it out there. This topic is also exhausting to deal with internally.
I realize that I am often not the majority view here, and that I certainly often feel unwelcome, but on this I would like to comment: there seems to be a tendency in online communities, especially those like reddit and tildes, to argue for abandoning relationships and cutting off contact when those relationships aren't built around an idealistic and unrealistic perfect concordance of views and behavior, or approaching the handling of relationships by presenting absolute, non-negotiable demands. The vast online population, and potential for filtering of views that allows for niche spaces of extreme agreement, perhaps creates a skewed sense of what local and family relationships should be like. There is an online admiration of isolationism and hostility that is dismaying: as you note, it seems like something that makes problems worse and at a societal level leads toward increasing strife; I'd add that it tends toward the encouragement of some form of online dependency.
Personally, in relating to people whom I think are good in some deeper sense, but also have views I find horrible, especially around Trumpism, when they want to discuss those topics, I try to seek out and focus conversation onto the points where we can find common ground and interest. It is in those spaces where we can relate amicably, and in those spaces where I can hope to have some influence on their views of the world. They are usually not impossible to find. Even if Trump himself is largely politically incoherent, for example, Trumpism is built on some real problems and discontent, with absurd and hateful answers and explanations for them. Focusing on those problems can be an area of agreement, and an opportunity to discuss different ideas around them. Within Christianity, the kindness, the charity, the forgiveness and understanding, the acceptance of imperfection, can be potential points of agreement, veering away from narrow specific quotations for particular hostile views. With your brother, what is behind those views on women, or a racial other? What is it he fears about them? Is it some sense of precarity or vulnerability that he feels? Are there ways to relate through those?
I am reminded in these matters of my mother's childhood friend, whose father was a conservative, fire-and-brimstone Baptist minister. Two of his children were gay, something he just couldn't see or relate to. He was at first oblivious in his patriarchal domination, then, when they were older and out, was for years horrified and angry about their sinfulness. But I never knew him that way: by the time I was a child, I saw only the thoughtful, kind, elderly theologian who was an assistant minister for his son at his son's inclusive church, officiated the wedding of his son and son-in-law, and was deeply reflective about his past mistreatment of his own children. When he died, he was remembered primarily by a community he would, many years before, have been willing to crusade against. I have to think that, had his children, and anyone who had a different view of the world, simply cut off contact with him entirely, and cut off that exposure to other perspectives, he would never have changed, and that his not changing, more than people associating with him despite (but mindful of) his views, would have ultimately been a disservice.
That's a beautiful story about your mom's childhood friend's family.
I want to believe that the online slant towards "cut em all off if they look at you funny" is an attempt to balance out in real life slant towards "never ever they're blood it doesn't matter if they're actively abusing you".
Speaking as someone who has chosen both very low contact with one relative AND unconditional support for another, I find solace from both camps, and find both viewpoints necessary for my sanity. It's like discussing marriage: we need viewpoints that encourage reconciliation and forgiveness and endurance etc, but we also need viewpoints that support leaving an abusive and dangerous relationship.
It becomes exhausting when one has to thoroughly convince others that they deserve separation before they can obtain advice on how to do so. And thus maybe that's why in some online circles the standard is to assume a child has given it their all and is now asking for advice on how to survive.
I just want to say I really identified with everything you've said here and am at a similar crossroads, what feels like for years, if not decades. I am still struggling with it, but I think the only solution is to remind myself that they are the ones with the problem and to stop trying to 'convince them'. Similarly, they are very helpful when shit hits the fan, I know I can rely on them. They aren't outright abusive, but I'd be lying if I said I ever felt close to my parents. Saying "I love you" feels very obligatory and I do feel some resentment and sadness when I hear it from them and when I say it. But I'm glad they do say it. Sorry if this doesn't make a lot of sense.
Same thing with the therapist. I feel like I already know the advice I'll get, which is not any actionable advice, but to state my truth and let the chips fall where they may...as well as grieving any idealized version of what I thought our relationship could be. But doing all that is a different story. Because I know the outcome won't be a stronger relationship or bond, but probably the opposite. I guess I'm not ready to accept that kind of loss yet. I'm sorry if this wasn't helpful, but I hope you feel less alone in your confusing situation on how to navigate your relationship with them.
Thank you for the response, and honestly I identify pretty closely with what you said here and how you feel. I suppose another detail I might give about my situation is that I have an avoidant attachment style, and in person I don't do great with emotions. So, similarly to you, I don't feel super close to my parents, either. And "I love you" doesn't really have a lot of weight to it anymore. Sometimes, it just feels like a formality being fulfilled. Additionally, I have shared topics of particularly vulnerable, somewhat traumatic, and quite awkward nature with them since I went to therapy a couple years ago, and they have never asked me about it since (and I made it very clear to them that they could ask me about these topics.) It's almost like they act like that conversation never happened. I really recommend therapy by the way in case you haven't gone to a therapist yet. But yeah, there's only so much a therapist can do, at the end of the day.
One other detail I might add is that, due to the avoidant attachment style, I don't do great with emotional arguments either. This has led me over the years to get shorter and shorter with my mom when she tries to have these kinds of discussions. I'm just so tired of these topics with her and her circular logic. I don't want to try and convince her anymore, which definitely isn't the most helpful approach to trying to change someone's mind.
Anyway, thanks for sharing. I don't really have advice either lol, but can say that I can empathize with your situation. It sucks, it feels like purgatory in a way to me. Also, you are worthy of love and affection of a stronger nature than what you get from your parents. One thing I definitely know is that I want more than what I get from them. And I agree, it's scary to admit that that probably means I'm never going to get that closeness back that I had in childhood, so I shouldn't chase it.
I recently ranted here on Tildes about my father being on that TikTok/WeChat garbage and how it poisoned him.
Then we had a lovely time on a cruise together (because we are too cheap to pay for internet thank God): no politics, no viral videos, no doomscrolling, just....wanna get food on Lido? How about catching that show? Hey tell me about the time you --- while we chilled on the deck over drinks. You can't spew hateful nonsense when you're focused on skeeball or pingpong. You're not raving about [group] when you're sharing a memory. It was very very lovely.
What with the election coming up for y'all, this year's Thanksgiving might be a tough time. How do you feel about some one on one time together doing some neutral activity that requires a bit of focus? Is there possibility of a family friendly board game?
I'm glad you found a way to have a good time with your dad! It's nice to hear about people making progress, even little bits.
To answer your question, yes I can do that with my dad pretty easily. He's very logical and so it's pretty easy to have intellectual/fun discussions with him. The problem is my mom. This shit has become her identity. Almost every topic leads back to some craziness, somehow. She has Newsmax on almost literally all day long every day. I can't get her to, like, go take a class or something. She's wanted to learn 3D modeling (for 3D printing purposes) but she lacks a lot of basic math principles that are needed for it. And, if I'm being honest, she also lacks critical thinking skills in terms of troubleshooting why prints are failing. I've tried to get her to take a community college intro math class and then an algebra class, because it really would help her in a lot of her hobbies, but I can't get her to do it. And I don't have the time nor the desire to teach these topics to her. I can't get her to join a Makerspace either, etc. Can't get the two of them to travel somewhere.
And anyway, the fact that my dad doesn't do anything to try and get my mom out of this echo chamber she's fallen into makes me resentful. He doesn't even really think it's a big deal. It's such a disservice to his wife to let that happen, in addition to all the other disservices he's done by being indifferent to her over the years. And in recent years, it's become harder for me to look past that. She is so lonely and in such a sad, willfully ignorant state, that it's hard for me to bear to be around. It's not doing good things for her health, either. I feel so sorry for her.
Does she want to do any lighter math stuff together? Like, do a sudoku together? Play a match 3 game? Board games maybe or just something stimulating.
The elders of my culture thankfully have Mahjong. It's like....bridge? Or Hearts? When folks are focusing on competing and points (and a very small sum of money) they can usually turn off the garbage for a few hours a day.
Does she want to join Bridge club? Yoga?
Your dad is finding the easy way out maybe, because all that anger and energy, if turned towards him, would make his day to day pretty awful, maybe. Maybe it's easier to listen to her yell at the lady in the box than to hear her yell at him.
People who have been conned are often extremely resistant to learning that what they believe is not true. It is very painful to admit that you were wrong.
If you have patience, you might be able to ask questions and listen to their thoughts in a way that leads them to recognize contradictions in their ideas but they have to come to their own realizations. You can't teach them.
The unpersuadables Adventures with the enemies of science by will storr is a good book.
So is being wrong Adventures on the Margin of error. You might also read Wendell Berry's memoir about growing up in a racist family of former slave owners called the hidden wound.
Thanks a lot for the reading recommendations! I'll be compiling a list from this thread.
In my experience, the most important thing you can do is to call people out on their behavior when they say something racist, homophobic, or otherwise inappropriate. Don’t let them just say something offensive and act like they didn’t just say something wrong. If someone lives in a MAGA bubble, they don’t often hear someone say that what they are saying isn’t right.
But you also have to watch out for yourself and your own well being.
Because we have similar backgrounds (see my other comment) I wanted to add the below. Understanding some of the background of how evangelical Christianity got the way it is has helped me have more empathy for people who are still steeped in it. Which may help you engage with your family if that's what you choose.
Bottom-line-up-front: it's hard to draw the line in these situations. On one side, there empathy for a person as a product of their own upbringing, trauma, and the bubble they live in. On the other is feeling the need to constantly argue against hateful attitudes, and the feeling that not doing so is enabling them.
In the end, how we choose is very personal, and my recommendation is to make a choice that minimizes the harm to yourself and the people you are responsible for (1).
The 2016 election was one of the starts of my own deconstruction of my Christian upbringing. Before that, I was sort of passively engaging with what I think of as "autopilot Christianity". I was in a conservative but still mainline denomination, so my immediate community were mostly kind people who were not rabidly spewing hate, though a lot of the conservative attitudes toward the LGBT community and patriarchal values were still present. I think the fact they were pretty ok clouded the issue of the larger problems with Christianity for a long time.
When the 2016 election came around, I was totally surprised and flummoxed by the rabid support of Trump in the evangelical community. How could people who supposedly love God and want to spread that love get behind Donald "grab Em by the pussy" Trump in such a big way.
One of the things that helped me was Brad Onishi and Dan Miller's podcast, Straight White American Jesus. There's a lot in there about how the norms of the church are harmful and how the evangelical movement was weaponized as a political force through issues like abortion and school choice. The Trump thing in particular is related to an idea that the Christian right idolizes strong masculine figures, even when they are morally ambiguous. He also promised them a return to a kind of country that they seem to want: racial segregation, women and minorities in the place, men in charge. There is a series they offer called The Orange Wave that chronicles the rise of the evangelical movement and how it differs from the older mainline denominations.
I hope this helps some, and that you have support in navigating the issues with your family. This internet stranger's heart goes out to you for the struggle of it.
(1): What I mean "people you are responsible for": I don't think you can or should take responsibility for the behaviors of your parents or siblings. But you might be responsible for how their behavior impacts you, your spouse, or your children.
Thank you for the recommendations! Fortunately, I don't have anyone but myself to worry about being harmed by what choice I do make regarding my family's relationship. Really appreciate the podcast recommendation. I applaud you being able to handle being a part of a church while Trump started happening. I'm sure that was not easy; that would have been very difficult for me.
If it makes you feel any better, I'm not really part of that church anymore. Part of coming off autopilot was realizing that being in that environment was basically triggering a trauma response. I have no beef with that particular congregation, but I have too much baggage to really attend regularly and be well. My wife grew up in that mainline denomination, so she doesn't have that trauma and still attends with our daughter.
However, I'm getting more questions from my daughter about why she has to go to church and I don't, so a time is coming where I am going to have to work it out for the sake of family unity or find a way to explain the complexities of that to her.
Not exactly sure if I'm reading correctly, but it sounds like it kind of helped jumpstart some change for the better for you. If that is the case, I'm glad for you.
On the topic of your daughter asking about church, I think I might be able to offer some anecdotal feedback on that. My dad also did not go to church when I was a kid except on Christmas and Easter. All of us kids asked the same question, and my mom still forced us to go. All three of us kids got a job ASAP when we turned 16 so we could avoid going to church on Saturdays (and also buy stuff lol.)
My dad never gave solid responses as to the "why?" question. He kind of just shrugged it off, as he did with multiple other important issues throughout life to detrimental effect. In reality, he's always been what I call a "fake Christian" or an indoctrinated one. He doesn't really believe the bullshit they peddle. He just stays in it cause he was raised in it, and it's the path of least resistance to stay in it. And he thinks he'll be safe getting into heaven just in case it's real and he can ask forgiveness in his last 5 years of life and bam, problem solved. But he could never admit any of that to me, especially not as a kid.
If it were me in that situation now, I would simply say to be honest with your kids. My opinion on this extends to most other topics in life. Sex talk? Be honest, be open, let them know you're safe to talk to. Politics? Dating? Death? Drugs? Just be honest and genuine and open. They will thank you for it later in life. Kids can handle difficult, complex topics earlier in life than most think (in my opinion.) But obviously, you know your kid best and will be able to navigate their capacity to handle the topic. Just wanted to offer my two cents as I don't think my parents were honest enough with me as a kid, particularly about difficult topics.
Thanks, that gives me some things to think about. I do think she's plenty old enough to understand, and I share your thought that being honest is the best way.
It's more that it's difficult for me to articulate my beliefs now that I'm unmoored (or unshackled) from the doctrinal and practical foundations that were drilled into me growing up. I would probably not say I'm a Christian anymore, because that category is weighted with so many things that I want to distance myself from. I like Stephen Backhouse's phrase "Followers of the Way of Jesus". I'm much more focused on being intentional and kind in how I relate to people and how I advocate for people to relate to each other.
Another credit to Backhouse for bringing me the idea of kenosis. That has been one of the most useful and central ideas to my reformation. I think the biggest turnoff for church is just the endless treadmill of how much God loves us and wants us to be more like Him while ignoring or anemically responding to the suffering in the world, especially turning a blind eye to hurt and harm that Christians are doing. I'd like tonfind different ways tonout my faith into practice, but building thst from scratch is a slow and probably lifelong process.
My most telling exvangelical trait is that I immediately started trying to guess which one you meant here lol
The podcast you recommend sounds great, and I'm probably gonna check it out! For anyone who's more of a book person than a podcast person, I recommend reading Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Kobes du Mez. The author is a professor of history and gender studies and her research focuses on the ways politics, religion, and gender interact, so she knows her shit. From your description here, it comes at a lot of the same material from a very similar place as the podcast you recommend.
Yes! In fact, they frequently promoted that book and collaborated with the author on episodes and classes.
Also, Brad (from the podcast) has a book called Preparing for War. I bought it, but like so many books, haven't actually had time to crack it.
Ooh I'll check it out! My dad's a fellow exvangelical so I'm also always looking for books to get him on this topic as a way to bond.
I dealt with mine by simply never speaking to them again, unfortunately that doesn't work for everyone but it sure was effective.
You are not obligated to fix your family. You are not obligated to interact with or even care about them. It's possible you may decide to do these things anyway, but don't let yourself do so solely out of a feeling of obligation. That's my two cents.
For most folks, I think @Akir's comment is the most important consideration anyone dealing with bigoted folks should be asking themselves. Even if you have the skills to change someone's mind, it takes a LOT of emotional work to get someone to shift their opinion, and it's a truly thankless job. It's draining, it will likely make you lose faith in humanity, and it's a glacially slow thing to do. If your goal is to minimize the amount of hate you witness and experience in your life, the easiest and most effective thing to do is simply to remove yourself from the situation.
With all that being said, I don't see a lot of people talking about the field of science devoted to changing someone's opinion/mind. Unsurprisingly, this is a field in which there are a LOT of differing opinions and frankly the entire field has kind of been turned upside-down and made to question many of the assumptions it's had with the rise of Donald Trump in the US and fascism in general across the world in recent years. As a broad/sweeping statement, people's minds actually change more often than we used to think and are prone to outside forces we don't currently have a great way of classifying. Emotions are a bigger input than we previously thought, and feelings of safety/security combined with certain types of messaging (taking into consideration the network effect) can really move people's ideas around.
The first book I'd recommend on the subject is one which was written by a science journalist in this field who basically dropped all he was doing in 2016 when Trump got elected and he realized that this subject needed a fresh injection of knowledge and serious rethinking. The book is titled How Minds Change and while it does a good job at explaining the science, it excels in that it focuses on groups of people who have successfully changed minds and what they are doing (be it scientifically based or not). The long story short is that changing minds requires a ton of emotional labor, as I mentioned above, and some specific skills focused on directing a conversation and building rapport with an individual you wish to talk with. It utilizes a lot of the same skill set you'll build from reading How to Win Friends and Influence People which I also highly recommend, in that the way you approach having a conversation with these individuals has be very careful to never put them on the defensive and you need to be able to get someone to explain their beliefs without them feeling like you're probing or attacking them (a difficult skill to master). I would also generally recommend the book Escaping the Rabbit Hole which is focused on conspiracy theories and cults. While not everyone who's Republican has fallen down into conspiracy theories like Qanon, the general insights that it brings into how people end up getting brainwashed as well as what's the true spark that gets them climbing their way out of said rabbit hole could be useful to understand the mindset of the people you are talking to and what kinds of speech will be effective and what won't.
In general I wish you the best of luck, and I hope you choose a path forward that focuses on and centers yourself. You only have so much energy in the world, and I don't want you to feel burnt out or unworthy or unloved or other negative feelings. You deserve to have a happy life and to minimize the negative interactions you experience, but also you may feel a strong calling towards enacting change and reaching these people so hopefully this is either useful for your own understanding and reasoning as to why you should create space or that it enables you to enact this kind of change in a more resilient and effective manner.
This is great and very in line with what I was looking for, thank you for this! Given how the MAGA movement has progressed, I'm not surprised emotional inputs are stronger than previously expected. Although, I have to wonder, why was the field so wrong to begin with? Obviously I haven't read the above recommendations yet, but it seems as though these same factors should have been present also in extreme religious groups over the years? Or in the Nazi movement? It must be insanely hard to actually study this topic in terms of getting true isolated and independent variables, so that might be why.
People just don't behave the same in a lab as in real life, and trying to change someone's mind about something they've already decided on has so many factors behind why it might or might not work. In short, yeah, it's a very difficult subject to study in the classical research sense (double blind gold standards) and really mostly only lends itself to making inferences or studying techniques that people field tested to understand more about why those might work, which is generally not thought of as 'hard science' in the same way.
There is a film called “The Brainwashing of my Dad” that I found all too relatable. It has a hopeful ending that you may find helpful. The film is free to watch on YouTube; I’d provide a link but I am work with limited time for Tildes :/ but a quick google will bring it right up.
LFTL: The Brainwashing of my Dad
Seconding your recommendation too. And for those who have never seen it before, despite how sensational the trailer makes it seem, it's actually a grounded documentary with some truly deep and excellent interviews in it. So don't let the trailer put you off it, it's not representive of the documentary at all, and really did it a disservice, IMO.
Jesus Christ. Gutwrenching. So many parallels in that story, it hurt deeply. (Thank you for thinking of me and sharing, though, I appreciate it.)
It's somewhat ironic that I'm reading it right now, as tomorrow is that particular brother's 40th birthday. I have no plans to take him out for drinks, though, because we can't seem to connect anymore without videogames or a concert to take our minds off the world. Because we pursue such different things in person, nowadays. He spends a percentage of his time "prepping" for doomsday bullshit because he thinks the country is going to have another civil war. He goes to a job he hates and just, will not leave it, even though it's taking a toll on his body after nearly 20 years. He "avoids" politics but has horrible views towards non-hetero non-white non-male people, and it shows in conversations. Probably aided by all the shit he reads on 4chan. Whereas I want to talk about stuff like new science topics, or new tech developments, without going down the road about how the corporations or government are trying to use them to control us. Or maybe talk about self-improvement and current struggles, without for instance blaming loneliness on women. Or politics and the awful shit Trump has done recently or that my state is trying to prohibit ranked choice voting on the ballot amendment. Or new music, which I haven't found much of recently.
It's exhausting. So, we'll probably just play some games tomorrow, and he'll again be alone at the end of it. And I'll be stuck with the same anxiety and internals being at odds with each other as the author mentioned. Rinse, wash, repeat.
I can't tell you. I'm kinda in your situation except I still do want to see my parents (dad and stepmom, my mom is as die hard a democrat as my dad is a republican) and they aren't quite as racist as yours. They would never say the n word but I think for them their racism is easier to hide even from themselves... which means it is even harder to point it out cause they don't even realize it and at least in my step mom's case she likes to think she's not racist.
But I resent them at the same time because they are so brainwashed and supporting all the wrong people (my stepmom loves Trump!). Worse is my stepmom used to not even care about politics and found it amusing how die hard my dad was but when Fox News came around (and my dad watched it constantly), she got sucked in (probably cause Fox News in the background all the time. BEfore my dad just listened to Rush Limbaugh but he never did at home and only when driving around for work as my stepmom before she got brainwashed hated the radio being on anything while driving so she didn't really get exposed to him as much).
I don't know why but it doesn't bug me as much with my dad, probably cause my whole life I took for granted he will always vote Republican no matter what (He's so brainwashed no matter who it is he'll vote for him. He didn't like McCain and saw him as a rhino but fully got behind him soon as he was the candidate). I guess it really just befuddles me that my stepmom who used to at least not care is now so die hard Trump (and before that Tea Party). Also my dad has decided he'd rather have a good relationship with me and has gotten better about not talking politics with me (ironic cause he used to love pushing my buttons but I've gotten very intolernat of their politics. Before I just thought they were wrong, and hell, at least thought the republicans were better economically but to me that wasn't highest priority but I don't even believe that anymore). My stepmom on the other hand is so brainwashed and just as bewildered at what I believe as I am her so we clash more cause one of us won't be able to stand holding our mouth.
The best thing we could do is just agree not to talk politics. But on long trips it still eventually comes up (last time she accused me of "it's like you resent us" and I outright told her, "I do!").
That's what makes this so hard. Yes, in a large part, I think my family are mostly good people with some kind of set of morals. They used to be much better, I would say. But since Trump happened I think they've either become worse people, or their true colors are showing more clearly. I actually think it's a little bit of both - I think they used to be a little bit better, but the world has changed so much they have adopted or entrenched in these worse views so they can protect themselves. Without these views, they have to admit they're at least somewhat racist and that they're wrong on abortion and gay rights, and especially that science doesn't support them on most topics. They have to admit they're wrong, and that's painful.
Regarding the question of my brother and interracial dating: He is a coward. He would never admit that shit to someone's face who is dating a black woman. If I started dating a black woman, I would bet money that he wouldn't say shit about it, and would then try to spin the story if I brought it up. And to be clear, if I started dating someone of color, I wouldn't hesitate to throw my relationship with him in the bin if he couldn't renounce those past statements. It's a clear and done deal to me, in that instance.
And I agree with your idea that my brother's views/statements on this topic come from a place of fear. He has never been successful with women throughout his life, neither through friendship nor through dating, and I think that is what has led him to take these views on. It's a way of explaining what he has experienced in the world without having to experience the full weight of the pain that comes with admitting reality that he is the problem.
And this is where my empathy stems from. I understand that fear and pain, as I would say I used to have misogynistic tendencies when I was young and also homophobic. But at the end of the day, my brother always seems to choose the cowardly route. He's worked at a job he hates (FedEx) for almost 20 years now, and has wanted to quit it for more than 10, but I just can't get him to do it. He's afraid to jump out into the vast unknown ocean that is restarting your career. Hell, I can't even get him to change to another job in the same field. I have even successfully done that exact thing by going back to school for a career change, but I can't even get him to take the first step. It becomes exhausting because I want to see people progress. Also, thank you for the book recommendation!
This is the core of the issue really, and the answer is heavily "it depends". As you've identified, a lot of these people are where they're at from a long history of being manipulated and abandoned. The second part is a chicken/egg thing since, yeah, people understandably don't want to be friends with racists.
I've watched a close friend go down the twitter conspiracy theory rabbit hole as their life unraveled, and it does mean hanging out with him less, but I also haven't completely cut him off because we do still talk reasonably about plenty of things and I think in the long run it's helped move him away from the ledge of extremist bullshit.
That said, you do have to draw lines. I think it's worth saying at some point "hey, do you really feel this way, because I think that's pretty horrible", but when to do that is a judgement call because of course that can end the relationship right then and there.