I'm generally confused about dating women
Tale as old as time, I suppose. Straight man doesn't understand women. I'm hoping this site will provide a healthy place to discuss my feelings and get wholesome input from others without it turning into a pity party or cesspool.
I didn't have any interest in dating until after I'd graduated college. Unfortunately, I immediately moved to an area of the country notorious for its unfavorable gender ratio. There are many more men than women here which means I'm starting on hard mode. I do at least have some traits which make things easier than for most. I am high earning, reasonably fit (not super cut but I work out most days), tall and I believe mentally healthy. However I can tell that my approach doesn't really catch with most people.
I've had limited success out here. Some of my failures are mine to own. Getting started from nothing means I'm venturing into the unknown. I'm a naturally anxious person and never felt any intuition in social situations. Thankfully I've managed to figure out a way of being that jives with some people and learned the hard way the things I do that don't jive so well. But dating seems to have its own social rules - and they're harder to learn due to all of the misinformation.
To sort out a lot of the misinformation I look to the people I see with the greatest degree of success. The older couples that are clearly deeply happy. My parents do pretty well in that regard. They've been married for 30-ish years with nothing more than a short argument between them. Or maybe I'll talk with an older co-worker who loves his wife the same way he did decades ago. People say that all happy families are the same, and unhappy families each broken in their own way. It's clear that there are some things in common with the happy couples - a universal recipe for happiness and success.
- Forgiveness
- Consistent effort
- Flexibility
- Similar values
I try to take these virtues with me when dating.
Of course, mutual attraction is a black box and also plays an important role. I've tried dating women that are just outside of what I would consider attractive. I think it's important to know what truly is important to me. But I found that things did not feel right and I can't compromise in that way. I'm not looking for a 10. But if I know they are not attractive to me it won't work.
In the normal world (outside of online dating) I think the odds of a random person being instantly notably attractive are very low. Someone needs to be sufficiently aesthetically attractive, but also have the right mind and soul. Without the latter two I have no interest. So for me when I've met a nice woman from a dating app the process of learning more about this person begins - and it can take a while to truly get to know someone. But I draw on the virtue of effort and am more than willing to make that an active process as we get closer.
There are actually some people out there that this all seems to align with. I think it's mostly a matter of time before I find the right person - so I'm not entirely discouraged. But the vast majority of women I meet seem to have the same feedback. They don't feel a connection - maybe that translates to "they're not attracted enough to me", maybe it's something else. But what I call a "connection" is something that can't be absolutely determined after one date.
Given my profile pictures are representative of my appearance, I don't think they're all saying I'm aesthetically unattractive to them. Sure, some might decide after meeting me that they aren't as attracted in person. I experience that for myself some of the time. But I suspect that much of the time this is more of a mismatched approach. I really want to know either how better to find my kind of person, or what ways I can adapt to be flexible for the women I'm dating.
Edit: Thank you everyone for your thoughts!
A lot of people said a lot of things, many of which sounds right to me but only a few I think are applicable as next steps.
- My own reflection leads me to believe that being more present and less analytical will make dates more enjoyable and productive for both people.
- Keeping a very long term goal in mind cripples the dynamic of early dating. It requires future prediction abilities beyond what a human can do.
- I don't know if I can be the "fun guy" all the time but I can definitely increase the amount of fun.
I wrote up a journal entry about what I wrote here and everyone's responses. I'll bring up my thoughts with my therapist later. Maybe this is weird but I threw the journal entry into ChatGPT. If nothing else it was positive and cheerful, which is helpful. But I was able to drill down on a few different things and got answers that sound reasonable. This is surely a common enough topic that it's got good training data for it.
I'd also like to say, for whoever reads my comments, that much of what I wrote is more about following a thought as far as it will go more so than putting my internal constitution into writing. I'm here to be as malleable as I need to be.
I truly believe that going out there with the intent of finding somebody tends to end badly.
I kind of get the impression that you aren't enjoying your experiences dating. If it feels like a chore, then yeah, that's going to come through. You'll genuinely be better off if you're not going out there to find The One™, but just going out to meet people, make friends, and maybe hit it off.
I had my epiphany moment in my late 20s, when I really realized that I would much rather be single and alone for the rest of my life than to just be with someone so I'm not alone. I think it led to a big shift in my own outlook and attitude, and it wasn't too long after that I ended up reconnecting with my now-wife.
I remember when I was a kid I read this book. I don't recall exactly what the goal of it was - it might have been a sex ed book even - but it talked about dating in a way that didn't make a lot of sense to me at the time. It said that the point of dating was to meet a whole lot of people so that you can explore relationships and find an ideal partner. That was counter to my understanding of dating which was finding one person to go monogamous with, and then if it worked out get married and if not break up and start over with someone else. That's what movies and books told me that dating was. The idea in the book was so foreign to me at the time I basically disregarded it - thus my lack of memory on the context.
But now that I'm older I realize that the version of dating I had when I was a kid was basically shit. That's a terrible recipe for happiness. Most young people don't even know what they want out of a relationship at that point in their lives - how on earth would you expect them to find someone who meets those requirements and actually likes them for who they are? The chances are astronomical! When I think back to my own experiences, every single person I dated in that way ended up disappointing me. I'm only married today because one of those guys who rejected me ended up coming back.
So my advice to u/hitherandthither is to get the idea of dating for relationships out of your head. Instead just surround yourself with single women and try to enjoy them as people, not as potential partners. Let the feelings build up naturally and see where things go from there. Relationships will build as long as you're open to them. I'm sure you've heard the time-tested advice of "be yourself"; it just so happens that it's easier to be yourself when you're not stressing about being the most appealing version of yourself.
I definitely think you're right. It's hard in a modern American metro area to actually build a natural group of friends. I'm making progress again but things got shaken up by the pandemic.
This 100%. I was struggling on the dating scene for months, then I gave up and decided to try just focusing on making better friends. A week later I met a girl at a party, went in with the goal of friendship and didn't try to hide my extreme nerdiness. Turned out she was just as nerdy, among other compatibilities we wouldn't have discovered if we were trying to pretend to be some appealing version of ourselves. We've now been together 13 years.
I'm going to back up your statements 100%. I was in my early 20s when I had that epiphany myself. I was running around on the many matchmaking websites before Tinder became a thing. I would spend an eternity trying to find a girl to talk back, get to know her a bit, meet up with her and just not feel it for some reason. It was a complete drain and a pain in the butt to do.
After a while, I just gave up. I told myself that I might as well just become comfortable with myself, because I'm not sure if I'll ever actually meet someone. A few years passed, and then I met my wife in a mutual hobby. Neither of us were looking for the relationship, we just realized that we enjoyed each other's company and grew together.
I truly believe that to find the a good partner, you must truly be okay with yourself. Self confidence is already a strong starting point when meeting other people in general, and doubly so here.
Thankfully all throughout my failures I've been picking up hobbies, making friends, and building self confidence. I can't know where I'm at, only that I'm improving.
What then, is the purpose of an online dating platform if not for people to start with a specific intention and make their way from stranger to something else? Are most people doing something other than that? Are the platforms built on a false premise?
Essentially, yes the platforms are built on a fantasy.
I know a few people for whom dating apps are actually useful - they are all very attractive, way above-average looking people. And in their normal life they are so far out of everyone's league they use the dating platform to hookup with the most attractive people in their area.
They are not looking for long term partners. It's just for hooking up - and you burn through partners quickly in real life, so the online platform casts a much wider net.
The platforms are built on the premise that there is a market for people that want to connect with other people through an online interface. They can't guarantee that you will connect and find your partner. Having said that, I did find my fiancee on a dating site and we had an instant connection.
I think the main thing that the two people above you are talking about is that your attitude towards meeting people can influence your behavior, and I wholeheartedly agree. When you put all this pressure in meeting new people with these really high expectations that it will turn into a romantic relationship you establish a tension on the date, and this will only be felt more heavily of you are really uncomfortable.
Maybe you should focus instead on finding spaces where you are comfortable around others and see if you can meet people through that.
Honestly in recent years I have begun to wonder if they aren't actually for hooking up.
I know that things can be a bit different for gay guys, but about half of the people who chatted me up when I was on them were looking to get into my pants.
That was definitely the goal of Tinder at the start. When people started using it to try to find relationships they were viewed as weird. It wasn't until later that they were seen as the primary goal.
This and I will die on this hill. It's something some of my friends don't want to understand either.
The intention of finding and searching somebody makes you needy and can lead to the wrong choices just to not be alone.
It can work out, but I have seen mostly bad outcomes. A person "actively searching" makes it less attractive to me.
The best relationships I have seen built (and mine) just happened during life. Where people were doing what they liked and found somebody out of nowhere.
Where the reason for the relationship is simply growing, unforced attraction and not 100 Tinder dates to find a proper match.
One friend has found his 5th "one love" on Tinder and it's always trouble with them. None of them were either mentally or emotionally stable enough for a relationship.
But it's better than being alone it seems. It def. puts a strain in our friends group because we want to be welcoming but he always - always brings up the worst people. Everyones gut feeling immediately says run, but he doesn't seem to understand it. And he is always heartbroken once the relationships end.
I'm an honest 21th century digital boy, but I detest the commercialization of relationships through apps and algorithms.
If you just want to hookup, fine. But don't expect a real partner for life. You might be lucky, but I have seen a lot of failed attempts and wasted time.
The best way for me was simply going out with friends, handle strangers like friends, be open and friendly, enjoying life, live.
Someone that fits will come eventually, and if they want to share their path through life with you that's awesome. And if not, that's fine too.
Don't see a relationship as the next logical and required step in life, learn to live a great life alone.
Anything that comes additionally is a plus to your already amazing life you have.
(+) anything that Akir said.
Every person I know still in relationships met their partners when not looking, same goes for me.
Even if you’re actively searching, I think it’s important to be clear on your intentions - Are you looking for a lasting relationship, something physical, «the one»?
Telling someone you «just met» that you’re looking for a life partner makes them have to imagine if they could spend their life with you which I think makes it harder to truly open up to the experience - It’s often easier to jump in to bed or just hang out and see where it goes.
I suggest looking for a friend and at some point you’ll find a best friend where the romantic attraction is mutual.
That said, I’m eternally grateful for having avoided the tinder dating hellscape that’s apparently become dating.
I know a lot of single people get annoyed when this is stated, and I completely understand why, but I do find it to be true. When people are "looking" for a partner it seems like it introduces a whole lot of energy that isn't conducive to forming natural connections. Dates start to feel like chores or have pressure placed on them. Some people may sense a bit of desperation from the other.
Exactly what I mean! I think a lot of people get stressed out on a first date nowadays because it's easy to start thinking way too far in the future. And this is complicated, because of course it's good to communicate that you're looking for something serious. It's just a lot of pressure on two people who don't even know if they like each other yet.
Same here. It would be one thing if people seemed to have fun with it, but from what I've heard from friends and dating podcasts, no one really wants to be using those apps, and the process around it doesn't seem romantic at all. Chemistry and romance are deeply human, raw feelings and it's not surprising to me that the apps seem to be at odds with that.
Granted, I know one happy couple that met on the apps. Ultimately, it's a perfectly fine way to meet people. I just think the apps have fundamentally changed the way that people expect to interact with each other in the sphere of dating, and not in a great way, in my opinion.
If you ask me, this is the best possible advice when it comes to dating. Absolute worst case, you'll end up with friends. The more friends you have, the more likely you'll find the one who ends up introducing you to the love of your life. Win win.
As a woman, i support this approach.
I too have only been interested in dating after college. But I realized it was in part it was because my anxiety got in the way (and still does tbh).
I personally get turned off by guys who approach me because i feel like im being 'preyed' upon.
Im a demirose, and for me it makes no sense to me how someone can be attracted to anyone without knowing them well. So without going through the friend phase first, i feel like im just gonna be used.
It does seem to be true. When I was out there looking for it I either found nothing or found things that were bad for me. Either way my mental health suffered and when you’re mentally in a bad place you’re not going to be finding or making good relationships anyway.
Only when I laid back, didn’t worry about it, and focused on just having a good time regardless of my status did good things naturally come to me because…well you’re simply more attractive when in that confident headspace.
Meeting my now wife was a total surprise. I feel like things never go well when you purposefully put yourself in “dating mode” trying to find “the one”.
Hmm, I'm not sure if that's quite what I'm doing. If the relationship that gets built is itself a chore and bland I'd rather not even start. I feel like it's more about two people mutually arranging a relationship, building it up from wherever it starts.
But what you say is something I've heard before. There's more for me to learn on that note.
Edit: In general I don't like the experience of meeting new people. It's difficult to build the initial necessary amount of familiarity to be there with them naturally.
Maybe try meeting new people in larger groups instead of one on one.
I consider myself a quiet, introverted person, and typically avoid large social gatherings as they tire me out quickly. But there have been certain times in my life when I am alone and stagnating and I wanted to get out and experience new things and people. During those times I discovered meeting new people one on one can be really awkward for me. But a group of people can be easier, you get to mostly listen and just speak up when you have something clever or relevant to say. This let's you get to know people from a relaxed distance. You can float around and talk to whoever you want only as long as you want. There is way less pressure.
Or you can't get a word in!
I find groups exhausting. I'm not a very charismatic person and it's difficult for me to compete for the attention of others.
I know what you mean. But I only get that feeling when I'm with a group of people that I know well and want to interact with.
If I had to choose between hanging out with one stranger or 4 strangers I'll usually pick the larger group. I'm going to be exhausted either way and with 4 strangers I'm happy to be quiet and listen most of the time.
With people I already know and like, smaller groups are better.
In my experience, this depends on the size of the group and the environment.
I am learning Spanish and I go to Spanish meetups. There is a typical progression:
Also, I really like hiking groups, because people are not all in one room. Walking splits people into little groups. You walk with one group and if you feel like it, you slow down a little, the next group catches you, you listen to what they are talking about and if you find it interesting, you join the conversation... or you just slow down again and wait for the next group. You can also walk solo for a bit, enjoying nature... and it feels normal, not as awkward as when you are sitting alone in a room full of talking people.
Agreed! Random tip, but for anyone who likes mushrooms I highly recommend mushroom forays. I'm on a weekend mushroom foray group camping trip right now, but usually they're just a one time event that happens during the day. Mushroom enthusiasts are a bunch of weird nerds (in the best way,) and are usually quite welcoming to newcomers. There's also an added educational element of learning about the mushrooms vs. a standard hike, and that gives you a common topic to chat about with people. It's also not weird at all to wander around by yourself if you need a minute alone or aren't sure who to talk with at the time.
Why do you think it is that you struggle to feel natural around new people? That would definitely impact how someone feels on a first date.
It's hard for me to get someone on a deep enough level to where I understand why they feel how they do about different things. Equally, I don't think people usually understand where I'm coming from for quite a while. My sense of humor can be a turn off for some women - I like to tease my friends and naturally extend to doing that with women I'm dating. Sometimes I worry they perceive this as negging but it's really affection.
Some of my strongest virtues are things that aren't immediately obvious. Some people are so outwardly friendly and that's a great trait that gets demonstrated within seconds. My best friend, who is great at telling people what they're good at, says I am "the person he knows with by far the most integrity" - and he knows a lot of people. He's also said I'm very "even keeled", which is a great trait to have when under pressure. But these aren't the kinds of things that you'd appreciate within a few hours of knowing me. What you might instead see is:
and not:
I often wish that humans lived as we did thousands of years ago, in small villages where people live in close proximity for years. I can acknowledge that initially a lot of people will see me and not see many reasons to get closer. But my female and male friends that spend a lot of time around me are always trying to match-make and wingman/wingwoman for me. The people that know me best consistently understand who I am, the life I'm living, and that many women would love that. But I think trying to actively sell myself on these traits is impossible, like trying to tell someone "oh you'll love me I'm soooo humble".
So I don't know how to sell people on me. I'm currently not the "fun guy" you just can't have a bad time with. That's not a bad thing to become and if I can move towards it - that's awesome! My friends and I have good times but they're usually pretty low key and involve a lot of pure conversation.
I'm a woman, but my mother is a boomer who grew up with five brothers who constantly teased her. I firmly believe her personality was shaped by that experience, and thus we (her children) learned certain behaviors from her, like teasing as a form of affection. I think it has resulted in me becoming a woman who usually is more relaxed/natural around men, because they inherently understand the way I'm communicating with them when I make little friendly jokes about them - it's how I express my affection. As far as I've seen, men are pretty comfortable interpreting interactions in that way. Women, not so much.
I also have good female friendships, because I am a woman and ultimately can always relate to women. But as someone who sort of exists in both worlds, at least socially, I have a lot of empathy for men who feel confused or unsure about how to best interact with women.
People have said similar things about me. Mainly, that it takes a while to peel back the "layers" of my personality and "find the good stuff." Based on your comments, I might be a bit better at bringing the "fun" vibes that you feel you're lacking in (which I have done only after working on it for years,) but in general, people find me to be introverted and somewhat intimidating/cold, at first. When they stick with me, and I stick with them, they get to know the best parts of me.
I have more thoughts, and though I'm out of time for now, I will likely respond to some of your other comments in this thread once I read them later. I love talking about relationships in the context of gender, and I appreciate you making this post.
Thank you!
For me the best things in any kind of relationship come with time. I'm learning through this thread that online dating is not a one-size-fits-all solution to dating and my process doesn't seem to match it. Knowing how I've come to know my friends, I am more than comfortable with a first date being luke-warm, a second and third being more comfortable, and subsequent dates just starting to get into the good stuff.
Online dating could still work with enough attempts made. But I'm already thinking of good ways I can expand my social group using the connections I've made in the last year.
100% agree with this.
And to add to it, the things I learned before finding my wife are:
I got married a lot later in life, and I would not change a thing about how I got here. Enjoy your life. Do you. Make yourself happy. You have no idea how attractive that is. Trust me.
You seem to view dating as a means to find a life partner.
That's a shitton of pressure.
Again, way too much pressure. You're planning for grad school when you're really just a freshman in high school.
"Don't feel a connection" means you're boring instead of fun.
Stop trying to truly get to know someone. That's exhausting.
Start seeing if you can have a fun Friday night or Sunday afternoon. Start seeing if you can have fun every Friday night and every Sunday afternoon. You don't need to discern whether they have the right mind or soul, you need to see if you're fun enough together for a second date. No one who fails this test is going to live happily ever after, so focus on immediate fun and stop worrying about happily ever after until it falls into your lap.
Maybe that's the disconnect. To me repeatedly going until mental exhaustion is normal, something I actively seek out, and it has worked out excellently for me outside of relationships. But I understand that makes me different from most people and most likely wouldn't line up with a random person.
I met a nice woman at work last year. She wasn't single - but we had a solid connection mentally and could have made excellent friends had she stayed in the area. She's getting a PhD in computer science. So there are others like me out there and it's not surprising that someone like that is my type.
Edit: I'm reminded of a story my Mom (who I resemble very strongly in personality) told me about one of her dating experiences. After a first date a guy, very frustrated, told her "You just too... analytical!". As she retold the experience she was still surprised that someone could even make such a statement. Clearly she believed that there was no way to be too analytical. And I can definitely see people I've dated making the same complaint!
But that’s the thing. Finding the right person should not be mentally exhausting. I get mentally exhausted at work and look forward to coming home and being mentally rejuvenated by spending time with my wife. I don’t have to think about what to say or do, I’m just me.
Don’t get me wrong, I do have lots of conversations with my wife that force me think critically and have sometimes led me to change my perspective. There have been challenging conversations that leave me exhausted, but that’s when we get I to deep talks. If my wife wasn’t mentally stimulating I wouldn’t be with her. That said, it’s refreshing to know that I can come home from work and mentally decompress or even check out while still enjoying time with my wife.
The night we met, she didn’t speak a word to me and I only spoke a single sentence to her. But the more we interacted through the groups we hung out with, the more we were drawn together. 20 years later, I can’t imagine my life without her. Similarly, most (not all) the people I know in decades long love started their relationships by being friends first and the dating began later.
Maybe I’m missing something, but what is it that’s exhausting for you in these cases? Trying to get to know someone?
It's basically 1-2 hours of trying to figure out what's happening as it's happening. Which written out sounds real shitty.
For a first date you shouldn't be 'figuring out what's happening'. You know what's happening, you're meeting a person and getting to know them.
Don't expect anything from a first date other than to essentially interview them and be interviewed. Much like a hiring manager, if the interview goes well, bring them back for a second round.
Based on all your analyticalness, I'm just gonna be blunt and say take sex off the table yourself. Don't spend an hour looking for 'the hint' because it's not coming. You already know it isn't happening because it's not. Now, step two, enjoy coffee/lunch/brunch with the lovely person of your choosing and just figure out 'Do I like this person?' and that's all you need.
Way ahead of you. I'm not thinking about sex at all on a first date.
Adding on to what Sodliddesu mentioned, what are you doing for first dates? Instead of the normal interview type thing over dinner, have you considered seeing if someone wants to do an escape room or similar experience first? That breaks the ice a bit and lets you both see how you work together some, then go grab coffee or something light?
Last one was more interesting. We biked around town and visited a couple of pretty gardens. Usually it's coffee and a walk through a park (ideally a dog park).
I've been very open here and may have given the impression that I run a date by going through a checklist - freaking the poor girl out. I think the issue is more a bit of nervous talking and not enough active listening. I do get some second, third, fourth dates.
Of the people I've gone on more than 3 dates with:
For girls #2 and #3 they were both some of the most attractive of the women I've dated. I suspect this isn't just chance and that part of the lack of interest from the women I'm dating is they're confused I'm not more attracted to them.
I've had a lot of experience with this, both directly and indirectly (lots of women in my family).
So here's a bunch of things that may help:
Regarding the advice many have already offered about trying to widen your social circle: The reason this works is because most women do not want to feel like they are being interviewed for the position of future wife. Neither do most men. Almost everyone I know wants the story of how they fell in love to be - he/she was a wonderful person who just came into my life and I just knew. The best way for that to happen is for this person to actually be a part of your life, that you see regularly and on occasion without any romantic overtones. When you are around people regularly, you pick up on many clues about their personality and you get to see the real person. They are not performing for you or trying too hard to impress you. People who encounter each other this way often have the most realistic impression of their personalities, good and bad. This is the main reason why people often fall in love with co-workers or classmates. The daily environment of seeing someone, working on shared projects together generates a lot of the natural elements that cause attraction and also foster mutual understanding of each other.
Regarding soliciting feedback from your past dates - basically, you won't get useful actionable information from them. You may even get incorrect information, for a variety of reasons. Many women have had bad experiences and do not want to encourage a past suitor further, so they often will say what they think will end the iteraction with the least drama. This often means if you do have some glaring fault, they will not risk angering you and telling you what it is out of fear.
As someone who has entered the dating pool a few times in his life over many decades 20s, late 30s, who has tried online dating all both times (yes, there were online dating websites in the 1990s!) I can tell you the tech changes but the way people are do not. It's always a ratio of about 1-20 on the online sites, and doing social circles things go from 1-6 to 6-1 depending on the circle. Social circles always win.
And the other thing to be aware of - social circles are not always what they seem on the surface. When I was younger, I joined a social circle where I was the only one in my 20s, and most the volunteers were over 50. I was not attracted to any of the women there who were much older than me - however, I did end up going on a few dates with their daughters/nieces and I would not have had that opportunity any other way. Their mothers "vetted" me, essentially. Their daughters were basically looking for guys in bars or online and not doing well with that approach.
Finally I will repeat some advice that others have also said here - stop trying so hard. It's counter-productive. For 2 reasons. First is that desperation is not attractive. This is why you can't get a squirrel to eat our of your hand if you run at it with nuts. Sit quietly, hold out your hand, and they are much more likely to approach. Second is that need to be the kind of guy a woman wants to hang out with. A woman does not want to hang out with a guy who is desperately looking for her. She wants a guy who is happy with life, and living it to the fullest before she came along. So you need to be that guy, and one way to do that is to find purpose with a lots of other people, not future dating partners. Find a cause you believe in, and do the cause.
Hey friend, I am a scrawny, average-looking guy with a pretty bad hairline. I've always been a bit nerdy, lower-middle class, nothing particularly spectacular. I personally feel that I have a ton of social anxiety, but the various ways in which I manage that social anxiety make me come off as confident, I think.
Not to toot my own horn, but I have been in a ton of relationships both casual and serious - pretty much exclusively with women who were out of my league by every metric. My (tall, muscular, and better-looking) brother jokes all the time that I have a secret I refuse to tell him.
The biggest tip I can give you is that you need to befriend women, preferably those with similar interests or lifestyles as you. But like, you need to genuinely befriend them without the goal of sleeping with them.
First, befriending women helps you understand women. It helps take away all of that nervousness around the opposite gender.
Second, women are the best wingmen. Seriously, I cannot stress this enough. They will set you up with their friends if they feel its a good idea. Perhaps more importantly, being around women who trust you is a good indicator to other women that they can also trust you. This helps overcome that initial (and totally justifiable) "arms length" reaction that women have toward new men as a self-defense mechanism.
Third, as other commentors have pointed out, you're more likely to find dating enjoyable and easy when you're not looking. Sure, people find love on dating sites. I think it's harder though, especially if you're socially anxious and not celebrity-level attractive. If you're just out making friends, enjoying yourself, accompanying your female friends to activities with other women, parties, etc, you have a really good shot at meeting someone.
Fourth, once in a blue moon, your female friends may find you datable and you may find them datable as well. Oftentimes this comes out of the blue. I ended up marrying one of my female friends who previously had no interest in me, and I no interest in her. It just clicked for both of us one day, about 15 years after we first became friends actually.
The final thing I want to mention is this: The bar is on the floor for men. It's seriously so easy to do better than most guys out there. Don't believe me? Browse relationship subreddits where women frequent, or listen to those new female friends you're about to make. My dude, SO MANY men are awful to their partners. They cheat on them, they are lazy as fuck around the house, they don't put thought into anything, they drink excessively, they don't get involved with their children, they don't make an effort with their partner's family, they don't befriend their partner's friends, they are so jealous and insecure that they try to control their partner's phones and social lives, they don't groom themselves, etc. When you're out there making friends with women, listen to them. And do better than the men they complain about.
That's my best advice. Good luck my friend.
I've actually had far more luck befriending women than men since college. I wish I had more opportunities to find friends, though.
I don't want to assume anything, but your post reads as though you're trying to dissect what the precise recipe for success might be, which has a certain surgical quality to it. By that I mean very analytical, logical, and perhaps less emotional. Hypothetically, were this to rear its head IRL, one may not feel a "connection" as a result.
What I'm trying to say is that if you meet someone purely with intent the resulting interaction can come across as unnatural. I've had the most success meeting new people in general by having zero expectations it will lead to a lasting friendship, or anything else, i.e. more free-flowing and less heavy-handed, especially with people you've never met before.
Regarding the commonalities you mention with happy couples, I'd suggest including communication in that list. I think for any relationship to really thrive, you need to be able to talk openly and honestly with one another. That doesn't mean throwing tact out the window, and there are certainly good and bad times to bring up different subjects, but as a whole if you're not able to 'be heard' and 'hear' the other person, you're in for a really rough time.
What are you looking for? Do you just want to go on dates and have casual relationships, are you looking for someone for the long-term, do you want to get married? Advice is probably going to vary a lot depending on this as what you want out of it.
I think casual is incompatible with whatever starting point I've built my thoughts on. I don't think there's anything wrong with a more casual relationship. I just don't know how I'd do that. So - not much interest but also no real understanding of what that even means.
That's good to recognize up front so you can make sure you're on the same page when you are dating someone. I know for me (similar focus on wanting something serious), it seemed like you really don't see that mindset as often until mid to late twenties or so for most people. There's a lot of desire to just have fun or do certain things in life before 'settling down'. Not sure your age or the age of women you're dating, but I guess trying to say depending on where you fall in on that, it could play a role in the dating pool you're looking at too?
There are a ton of great posts here already and I don't want to take away from them, but I would especially take another look through cinnamontrout and Wolf_359's posts. There's a lot of really good advice in there that resonates with my experience. A couple things in particular are the 'vetting' that goes on via a friend group or just in life around one another as well as just focusing on making friends (and especially more female friends). Wolf's comment about the bar being on the floor matches up with stories I've heard from women in my life as well. Just being a stand up guy and having those friendships is way more likely to help you find someone that you'll actually connect with.
I don't know. Even thinking about "just having fun" with dating seems frightening to me. What does that even mean? Why would I find monogamy insufficient? If I'm giving someone my love it means too much to spread around. Just having sex with someone doesn't seem interesting.
I'm in my late 20s. But I've never thought of non-monogamy as appealing.
That's entirely backwards.
It's not that monogamy is insufficient. But re-read what you wrote: you're already at "giving someone my love" which is like step twelve.
This has nothing to do with sex. It has to do with your laser focus on a lifetime together instead of making her laugh over coffee. Find people who are willing to get a drink with you. See if you can hit it off. Decide whether you want to keep seeing them after a few dates. Realize that you can have fun — which doesn't have to be a euphemism for sex — with multiple people at the same time because you aren't giving anyone your love yet.
And one day, you'll realize that you don't want to go on a date with Ashley, not because you didn't have fun with Ashley but because you can't stop thinking about Beth. And that's when the question of monogamy comes into view — which is still far from "giving my love."
But you don't ever get to give your love to Beth if you're so intensely focused on a forever relationship she regrets ever showing up for your first date. Fun just means being... Fun.
Thanks for your input. It's definitely appreciated.
I think it's rare that I have any kind of "in the moment" purely social enjoyment with a stranger. With people that I've been friends with for years or decades, sure. With my brothers, absolutely. But on a first date just "making her laugh over coffee" isn't easy.
Right, and that's okay. But it's also exactly the point though from different ends.
Making new people enjoy your company is a social muscle. How often do you hit the metaphorical gym to practice it?
You're missing out on connections because you're focused so strongly on a lasting, loving relationship with an intensity that does not cultivate the initial letting down of one's guard that precludes the successful development of such a relationship. If you think it's impossible that you'll find a relationship with such a person fulfilling and what you really need is an equally upfront intense person then you're down to a really narrow window of candidates and this post doesn't really make sense. At that point your concern is communicating upfront, winnowing out gold diggers simply looking for someone to pay them to have babies, and broadcasting your intentions to a large enough audience.
Well it's not necessarily one thing or another. I think this thread has been helpful. As time has gone on I've narrowed my search, increased the intensity of my intentions, and sort of blindly hoped that would lead me to success by filtering people early on. But I've actually had worse success as I've done that. Back when I started I knew what I was looking for but did have more of an attitude of "just go out there and meet some people". I knew I had no idea what I was doing and expected a lot of failure to start.
So I'll try to shift back to how I started, but now with more experience.
And I'll continue going to therapy :P
Want to follow up because I realized there may have been a difference in definition here. When I say "giving love" I don't mean "experience a rush of oxytocin when I think about you". I mean taking care of someone. Putting effort into them. Finding things they need help with and offering them my time. That's something you can do from day one.
But it takes a while before people open up enough to see the things they need help with.
I get what you mean, but going in with this mindset upfront is, at the risk of repeating myself, a crazy amount of pressure for a potential partner. You can't do that from day one without scaring the vast majority of people off.
It's a huge red flag if someone tries to do that from day one. People aren't going on dates looking for someone to invest that much attention and effort into them from day one, that's something that gives off an obsessive vibe.
Meet up with as many people as you can. Don't focus on anything more than casually getting to know them and learning if there's potential to have fun with them. You'll make friends, you'll have fun, you'll improve your social skills, and eventually you'll meet someone to invest all that focus into.
Okay. I do think I can read the vibe enough to know when not to do that. But I also don't think it's wrong to offer more than people normally would.
Shortly after meeting my current best friend he started opening up to me that he was not enjoying his job and was feeling uncomfortable about quitting. I didn't quite know what he needed but figured it couldn't hurt to have more of a financial safety net. I was in the position to gift him $5,000 - no strings attached - if it would make him happier at a new job. He let me know that it wasn't a matter of money and politely declined, but I think that was the turning point for when he decided to lean into the friendship more.
Again - I get it that being uncommonly generous, with money or time, can get suspicious. So I'm not always that way. But it still seems to be a virtue.
Oh there's no doubt it's a virtue. But the question isn't about what's virtuous, it's confusion about dating women.
The number one thing women are on the lookout for when dating are creeps. Avoiding them isn't just job number one, it's job one through ten.
Now, I don't think you're a creep. At all. But everything is about perception here, and women who give men who might be creeps the time of day end up hurt, abused, or worse. Being personally invested far earlier than is perceived to be normal is a red flag. Being intense is a red flag. Being focused on monogomy and commitment is a red flag. None of these are inherently bad traits, but they communicate someone who could be controlling, stalkerish, and obsessive to a fault. Women who ignore those possibilities do not end up okay, so they tend to cut bait early because that's the safe, rational play. And they tell their friends, whisper networks are a community defense.
Again, I am not in any way trying to say you are any of those things.
But your example of your friend shows a selection bias towards cases where these traits have worked out. Imagine that half the time instead of saying something like "I just don't think we have a connection" -- which is a safe, non-confrontational way to remove one's self from the situation -- women broke it off with "You're oddly intense, and I don't feel comfortable around you because I worry you will be controlling, abusive, or a stalker." Hell, if you only heard that 10% of the time it would result in a huge mental reset. But women don't say that, because when they're uncomfortable with a man they know the safest way out is bland disengagement.
Basically, you have two possible approaches. You can either filter aggressively, act as you do now, and hope that you'll hit the one in a million jackpot of the perfect partner. That's possible, but if you thought that was viable I don't think you'd have posted this topic in the first place.
Or you can reassess and calibrate the impression you're conveying to the expectations women have for what's appropriate at the beginning of dating someone and save your more intense virtues for months later once you're in a committed relationship with a partner that's prepared to reciprocate that level of intensity back.
Thank you for your thoughts, really.
I've added a sort of summary to the OP. I'll call this thread closed for now. I'll see what kind of progress I can make on actually re-organizing my thoughts before my next date. Just a set of instructions wouldn't be enough to measure any success.
Can I just say how impressed I have been by you in this topic? You're taking some pretty strong/direct criticism and blunt advice in stride, and have been approaching this whole endeavour with a really healthy attitude, IMO. And I think that's a pretty solid indication that you will do just fine when it comes to your future dating life, especially if you approach it with the same willingness to listen to, learn from, and respectfully converse with others as you have shown here. :)
Thank you! I was raised with a strong ethical foundation and I use that tool constantly. That makes me feel safe from criticism as I don't believe I've done anything wrong (I define "wrong" as hurting people, most wrong being intentionally hurting people).
There have been a small number of assumptions about me made here by various commenters that aren't true. Like that I could be just using people to fix loneliness, just trying to seek out sex under a false premise, merely viewing women as a status object. Were they true then maybe I'd feel more guilty. I think it's more that I'm very good at delayed gratification and goal seeking, perhaps to a fault. I also generally reject collective knowledge and try to build an understanding on my own, from the ground up, with the Socratic method. And that works fine for a one-person system, but not as much for an intimate multi-person system.
I think part of the relationship development process will need to be walking together with someone through the mental framework I've built and aligning with the other person as we do that together - rather than trying to fit that person into the mold and rejecting them once they don't match. Selecting an appropriate starting point and limiting the speed here are hopefully enough to keep it from being too intense or inappropriate.
Best of luck!
You must realize how much pressure you’re putting on yourself and anyone you’re courting. They likely feel that energy and…it’s off putting, frankly.
You must find a way to divorce yourself from it and enjoy the moment whether it’s just a friendly encounter or your happily ever after.
Yeah. I've been working trying to figure out why I feel that way. I don't think I have any trauma...
I have varying degrees of that state of mind. I don't think anything that intense comes across. But it's always in there - even if a few layers down.
It's not about non-monogamy or anything, you can have fun with dating and still be monogamous. It's not like they told you to have five partners.
But it's also not about finding a partner to lock down in marriage in exactly six months. That's high stakes, few people even sit down at that table, let alone win. Go out, meet someone, go on some dates. Don't stare across the table like everything is on the line over a cup of coffee, that's too much pressure.
Have fun, worst case you'll have stories to tell about all the wonderful people you've shared some of your time with. You're putting too much pressure on the first date, when it's just a test drive.
I’ve always taken that to refer to having casual sex or finding the type of people they click with etc.
Nothing is wrong with monogamy and I know personally I can’t imagine being able to be a good spouse to more than one person anyway :)
Based on what you've said so far, the feeling that I get is that you're very focused on how superficially attractive you are to women. Sure, financial stability is important in a marriage, but that's not going to be a big concern before or during the first date. If you're having success matching with women but not with building a connection, then it sounds to me like you could gain from focusing more on your intangibles. What are your hobbies, your passions, what values do you portray without having to explain them? In other words, is your personality attractive to the women you're dating?
You should also remember that as humans, we tend to overestimate how attractive we are. You say that you probably have an edge over other men due to your income and better than average fitness, but do women perceive those things as advantages? Do you really stand out from a sea of other high earners? Also, keep in mind that in online dating, something like 10% of the most attractive guys are getting 60% of the matches, so being "not unfit" may not be a huge edge.
If you were looking for casual relationships, then by all means flaunt your income and looks. But I think your approach is mismatched with what you seek. If you're looking for a life long partner, then what women seek is probably completely different.
As others have mentioned, the harder you try to find someone to pair with, the worse luck you may have. I think something that is perhaps universally attractive to women is a man that is more concerned with improving themselves than with getting dates. In addition, activities that improve you as a person will more often than not expand your social circle, and that improves your chances of meeting the right person.
Ultimately, maybe you just need more experience dating and being in relationships. Instead of jumping straight into serious dating, you should try going out with women even if you're not completely attracted to them (like for example your friend's friend). Just make sure you go with an open mind, and enjoy the date, even if it doesn't evolve into anything further.
I think these are all good points to make. As for my superficial traits - I'm not trying to say I'm above the rest, just that I'm definitely in the running.
The simplest strategy honestly is to just try to expand your social circle to mixed gender groups and to become genuine friends with more women. Eventually, you'll definitely find someone. If you don't find someone, it'll probably be for reasons that are only tangentially related to attracting a mate (issues opening up, connecting, etc.).
I don't think what you're saying is incorrect, or that you're a bad person. But any time I've heard a man talk of how they've reverse-engineered women I get uncomfortable. I trust you've told the truth and you found success with your process - and that it could work for me should I go all in on that approach.
I profoundly disagree. I am not commenting to convince the original poster - if this works for you, good for you. I am commenting because there might be readers not too experienced in this area and I feel like I need to counter-comment for them.
Connection not only exists, I think it is the best thing life has to offer. There is nothing more invigorating and beautiful (that I know of). And it is not even that hard to find if you are open to it.
The rest of the post feels strangely calculated and self-contradictory and it seems to me that the OP is probably a very different person than I am (and probably surrounded by very different people), so maybe I am just not getting their point of view. However, I feel strongly about that "connection" part, because if someone here gets convinced by it and starts living it, I think they might miss out big time.
And...
... this actually does give me the creeps. No wonder the original poster does not believe in connection - this kind of behavior prevents connections. I would advise anyone NOT to do that. Not only is that manipulative, it is dis-associative - if you try to control your natural automatic reactions, you get disconnected from them and that is one sure way to feel like shit.
BTW, I studied psychology and I also read some texts written by so-called "pickup artists" (who advise similar stuff). I noticed that many of them mention depression and I absolutely believe it is no coincidence. How could you NOT get depressed when you are actively working on disconnecting from your true self? And it is obviously impossible to have a connection with others when you are disconnected from yourself - there is nothing to connect, just a mask, a persona.
I was not aware of that. I might have missed some other cultural context too.
Parts of my reply were meant for you, but also for others who might be reading your comment... I guess I kind of mixed those up. I am sorry if that is confusing. I need to work on my ability to express myself clearly.
Those are not mutually exclusive. Healthy reactions are not natural for everyone. And by "healthy" I mean desirable, optimal - as in "I would want that". Stuff like feeling confident and relaxed on a date, not having to control yourself etc. And do not take this as a judgment of you or anyone who does stare at their food. I have spent dates staring at my food that I was not even able to eat... which was neither healthy (certainly not for my stomach) nor conducive to "connection".
There is a significant difference between trying to be confident vs trying to present yourself as confident (which, BTW, actually confident people do not do). I might have missed something but I was pointing out your suggestions that are about the external semblance of confidence, not confidence.
Let's define "manipulative" - in this context, when I say manipulative, I mean behavior that is not authentic, that is intentionally designed (created?) to achieve something. When you control when you laugh and how you listen to create some image, it is manipulative. Again, no judgment, we are humans and we all behave that way sometimes. There is a big difference between this and a manipulative person. One can do it out of insecurity and it is not necessarily malevolent. But it is not conducive to connection. You can connect only when you are "really there", authentic you, laughing when you feel like it, listening because you are absorbed by what the other one is saying, talking when you want to share. When you do not try to control things - ideally, you forget that you are even there.
The more important part is the "dis-associative" part. Again, no judgment, I was doing it (and maybe still am sometimes). I will try to explain why this is not healthy: people do not have the bandwidth to be really present and at the same time control themselves. It is an "either or" situation. When you do stuff like try to control your reactions (like when you laugh, when you look at your food, or when you look them in the eye, some people think ahead what they are going to say instead of listening to the other person), you disconnect from the situation. You attention is focused internally, not externally. And I understand why people do that - insecurity etc., all that is common - but sensitive people will perceive it and the worst of all, you will perceive it... and you will not have a good time. And not just during the date. I believe this is one of the best ways to get stuck with overactive default mode network.
Some people are lucky that they have that authenticity and "flow state" during interactions with other people naturally, some people need a bit of practice, other years of psychotherapy, and some people never get there. A lot of it really is pure luck (genetics - sensitivity to stimuli, safe parental environment - secure attachment style) - I want to emphasize this to make clear that I am not trying to judge people who were unlucky, I am trying to explain how I think this stuff works.
Not exactly. I am suggesting, that certain behaviors people do to present better to romantic partners can be conducive to depression. What behaviors? For example, dis-associative behaviors I tried to explain earlier. And sometimes there is a very subtle difference but I hope you feel it: when you desperately try to get attention by being funny, it is different than when you are in a playful mood so you crack a joke and she laughs. It might look the same (to a superficial observer) but it is different.
This is a very complex subject and whole books were written about authenticity and "congruence" in psychology but the way I explain this to myself simply is: when you do those things that "pickup artists" would suggest, it is not authentic behavior. You are creating a mask... and you know that. So even when it "works" (meaning it leads to sex), you know the other person is not with the real you but with the mask. I can only imagine the profound depths of loneliness and emptiness this could cause.
That is the crux - I do not believe you build confidence by the methods you suggested (I am talking just about the things I pointed out - I am not saying I disagreed with all of your post). I actually believe this is how you can destroy it. You say it worked for you - that is great. Maybe it means I am wrong, but I want to point out that there is still the possibility you succeeded despite them.
Certainly not, and I did not mean to suggest that you are a pickup artist or anything - I hope it did not come off like that. It is just that I think they represent an extreme version of some of the unhealthy ways to approach dating and it is sometimes easier to point things out on extremes to drive the point across.
Yep, I agree with that.
And BTW, when we are talking about luck, confidence an all that stuff, that just reminded me that sometimes people get really lucky and have a corrective experience - you meet a person that somehow makes you feel safe, despite everything. A beautiful portrayal of this is Punch Drunk Love, one of my favorite movies.
Join a church or volunteer group or circle of people who play dungeons and dragons or something.
Oh definitely! I've actually joined a pretty excellent group of people that play board games weekly. And the gender mix is something like 40% women. I think the odds I meet someone there aren't too bad.
A friend introduced me to a friend of hers through that group - with the hope that she could match-make the two of us. I didn't feel particularly attracted, but also not unattracted. I told my friend (and she definitely relayed this information) that the best odds of me becoming attracted was for her friend to keep attending and us to have some positive low-stakes interactions together. I don't think her friend like that, though. She never came to the games night again :|
This can kind of apply to everything in life. But that's part of what makes it such good advice!
Happiness is something you give yourself, and it's so easy to forget to do!
Oh no no no. Do not tell someone what they can do for you to find them attractive, and don't tell that to people who know that person.
Yeah I... wasn't expecting that to be a winning approach.
You said your profile pics represent you physically, but how well do they represent your interests and values? Have you incorporated more of your personality in your photos, captions, and/or written prompts? You trade quantity for quality when you make your profile very specific, but the idea is to attract more people who are similar to you.
You mentioned in a comment that you don’t like meeting new people because it’s difficult to build familiarity. Have you tried different methods of communication (text/DM, phone call, voice chat + watching a show or playing a game, etc.) before meeting up? And have you tried doing that for longer, so they feel like an acquaintance by the time you meet up? Sure you’re going to lose some matches who have moved on to other “options”. Who cares. You’re looking for someone who's on the same wavelength as you. There are people out there who meet after chatting for 1 day, 1 week — heck even 1 month! — and find love.
What I’m advocating for is knowing who you are and what you want. Go on dates, meet new people, see which parts of what you want are dealbreakers and which parts you can compromise on. At the same time, be on the lookout for compatibility, similar values, and whether they meet you halfway when there is friction. You absolutely can date with the intention to find something serious (a long-term relationship, life partner, marriage, etc). Being open and upfront about that early on was actually common in my experience (large metropolis, late 20s/early 30s). However, it takes time getting to know the other party and seeing if you are both right for each other. In my experience, "connection" as a reason for breaking things off seems like an umbrella term for letting someone down gently. Unless you get more detailed feedback, I'd take it as a token of goodwill and move on. Though you don't have to jump back into the dating game immediately. It's good to take a break sometimes.
As a side note, you seem extremely focused on trying to identify social patterns. It comes off like someone who doesn't tacitly understand social cues. You might want to explore the source of that. Like are you a late bloomer socially and/or is there something a professional can help you with, i.e. social anxiety, neurodivergence, etc. It’s just a possibility that I thought to mention based on what you wrote. Nevertheless, your analytical nature is part of your quirks. You shouldn’t hide who you are; you want someone who wants you for you.
Edit: Saw your comment about non-monogamy being unappealing for you. You don't have to date multiple people at once. Just match/talk/go out with only one person at a time. But don't assume exclusivity until you both confirm it.
As a child I was evaluated by a psychologist. I remember her saying "nothing hits the radar screen". But I was also the kind of child to lie to a psychologist to avoid any special attention. So I don't necessarily take that clean report on face value.
I definitely suspect I have some kind of neurodivergence.
It sounds like you were a precocious child! 😂 It may be worth seeking a second opinion as an adult. Whether something or nothing turns up, you're one step closer to getting to know yourself better. I personally think becoming connected with your inner self is more important than dating, but there's no rule saying you can't work on yourself and date/explore relationships at the same time. I saw in another comment that you're already working with a therapist who may be able to help you unpack some stuff. Why can't you have fun in the moment with a stranger? Maybe it's regular ol' introversion, maybe it's Maybelline (har har okay I'll show myself out). Anyways, I hope you get the support you need and wish you good luck!
Not sure how helpful my experience is going to be but my wife and I hit 15 years married and 20 years together this year.
I am not an attractive person. It's my face. It's pretty bad. By the time I was 18(youth thinks they know everything) I had pretty much decided that there was no one for me and had made peace with it. I was doing the music for a party my roommate was having and basically sitting alone in the corner of an empty room at my computer managing music.
Suddenly, my now wife, walks up to me and starts talking to me. I think nothing of it because, as I said, I had accepted that no one found me attractive and had already moved on. What I did not realize this meant is that since I didn't care about sex I defaulted to treating everyone as a person first regardless of the situation and didn't have ulterior motives for anything. This is apparently an extremely attractive trait as it is what my wife tells me made her fall for me.
I had no idea she was flirting with me for over half the night until I had retreated to a chair in my room and she came and asked if she could sit down, then after a yes she sat in my lap. My wife is amazing. She really cares about people, has amazing empathy, and is supportive of everyone she meets. I couldn't be luckier to have had that exact person show up to the party who didn't care so much about my face. It really put my life on it's head.
Many ups and downs later here are the things I have learned are needed for a strong relationship:
Communication: You need to talk to each other. Regularly. About everything. They are your partner and sometimes things you may consider trivial may be important to them. Don't ever let your partner find out something happened via a third party if it can be helped. Talk about your day and add detail. Listen to them talk about their day and ask for details.
Communication: You need to talk to each other. Regularly. About everything. Talk about your emotions. Ask them about theirs. Take an interest in the things they feel strongly about. Include them in the things that you feel strongly about. If they care about a person, place, or thing then YOU need to care them. It doesn't have to be as much as they do but because you care about them some of it needs to transfer to the things they care about.
Communication: You need to talk to each other. Regularly. About everything. Talk about boundaries. (This is a mighty big one.) Talk about them early. Talk about them often. Boundaries sometimes change, grow, or shrink. Respect these boundaries and expect yours to be respected in return. Boundaries can be so many things and there are both healthy and unhealthy boundaries. Recognize this in both your partner and yourself. Work together on unhealthy boundaries that hold you back. You are not alone. Quick example of a healthy boundary: "I do not like to drink." Respect this and never push it. If they EVER want to experiment with a boundary like this fully converse about it, set limits, and be ready to back away and not return if they decide it is indeed a boundary worth having. Quick example of an unhealthy boundary: "I do not like talking about my feelings with anyone, ever." This is an unhealthy boundary (One I personally had trouble with.) While it should still be respected it also needs steady work to break down. Unfortunate only the person with the boundary can start that work. Once started you will not be alone and will have support as you break it down.
Communication: You need to talk to each other. Regularly. About everything. I'm not sure if I have fully gotten across how important communication is but I'm adding again to be sure. If you start living together you need to start having conversation about the day to day stuff and chores. These should never all fall to one person but should shared equally by both parties. Your partner is not your parent, your butler, your slave, or your housekeeper. For that matter you are not theirs either. Pick up after yourself and if one of you is slacking TALK ABOUT IT.
I hope I was able to communicate how important communication is to a relationship. Go out there and talk to each other.
I have some advice that may seem weird at first but worked for me: you gotta anticipate rejection. If a woman is not, and will not be interested in you, you should give her the chance to reject you early on. That way, no one's time is wasted. I used to talk to women, on Tinder or in real life, about logic, science fiction, or anything that interested me at the time. A lot of them would become unresponsive, unmatch, or disappear. Did it hurt? Yes, of course. But the ones that remained interested were way more likely to be truly compatible.
Do not delay rejection by pretending to be someone you're not. You wanna be open, clear, and obvious -- which does not mean brazen or disrespectful. But do make your intentions known if and when the circumstance is appropriate. If the answer is "yes", now you have a date. If the answer is "no", well, that isn't great, but she saved you a lot of time and effort. You should respect that and move on.
Unless you're talking about famous people, "successful" guys just look successful because they learned to manage rejection and move on, never wasting their efforts with women that don't want them.
And yes, as others commented, you shouldn't date with the expectation of finding a life partner. That is way too much pressure. Focus on having good moments with someone. The future will come in time.
Good luck ;)
I never really dated for the express purpose of finding a romantic partner. The process felt unnatural to me and was a lot of upfront pressure. Instead, what happened was that a friendship organically moved to a romantic one -- we wanted to go out and spend time together because we enjoyed each other's company, and that's how I came to be with my SO. I think the advice I saw somewhere here to seek out social events, meet people and make friends is solid. Dating can be high stress, expectations/standards/compatibility are unrealistically amplified or distorted, and you don't really get to know a person beyond the qualities they selectively present.
Meeting someone you like casually hanging out with is a lower bar, and it's the essential core to a meaningful and enduring relationship anyway -- friendship is what motivates genuine effort, forgiveness, flexibility, etc. and is a much stronger foundation than perceived fitness. Attraction is also unpredictable and can develop or evolve over time. I wouldn't have thought my current or former relationships would be a "match", but as you get to know someone certain things you thought were issues just evaporate, you begin to appreciate their peculiarities and start loving things you did not notice before. Nobody has a perfect personality either, and being able to complement someone else's faults and they yours is a great thing.
These are all factors I think are difficult to discover from arbitrarily agreeing to meet a person and do a thing at some random place because of a picture or your personality presented as a sales pitch. In short, make friends, get out of the compatibility mindset, just hang out, and let feelings develop organically instead of through a pressure cooker.
I think dating is different in your 20s compared to your 30s and 40s (exact age ranges vary by location and culture).
Later in life many/most people are dating to find a life partner and maybe raise a family. They prioritize different traits in a partner which are probably closer to the ones that you'll hear from the successful couples that you've talked to. My friend is reading a book which describes the strategy as finding "someone with whom you would want to run a boring nonprofit". Because that's what life is at some points, and if you find someone good for that then it's all upside from there.
You're looking for someone to run a boring nonprofit with. Most people in their 20s are not looking to run a boring nonprofit. They're looking to have fun, experience new things, discover themselves. Some people will decide they want to evolve those relationships, some won't "settle down" until they're older.
I don't know you, so I don't know what you should do. Maybe you should seek those same things while you're younger. Maybe you should find like minded people who want to run a boring nonprofit with you, maybe moving to an area culturally aligned with doing that at a similar age. Maybe just keep at it until you have more experience dating.
Side note: I personally find dating apps to be terrible. I have a much better experience in romantic and platonic relationships when I have friends and friends of friends that I see regularly or semi-regularly and let things evolve over many interactions. Unfortunately I know this is harder in the work from home era and when you've moved to a new place.
The secret to getting what you want out of life, the universe, and everything is simple: Make people feel special, then ask them for something.
From your responses, I gather that you're not trying to discover what makes people feel special. So, I would advise you ask open ended questions, then shut up and listen. Most people will bore you. That's okay. It's good practice. When you do find someone you like, then learn what makes her feel special, you might find that you have a strong desire to make her feel that way for a long, long time. Then maybe one day you'll ask her for something really big, and she'll say yes.
I definitely take most of the initiative. I think it's not too hard to get a first date, with each successive date having notably fewer takers.
Yes, most of the time.
No but I could give it a shot. Usually when this has been done to me by the woman it's been a first date that I particularly did not enjoy. So I haven't done it myself out of fear it would be perceived poorly.
Definitely sometimes but not as much as I would like.
I think those things are partly "magic" and I am not going to pretend I understand them. Just a few personal observations that might or might not apply to other people...
Connection sometimes occurs after a long time... and sometimes it takes 3 seconds. I remember one summer evening when I was in my room reading a book next to an open window and I heard some girl laughing on the street. It is really hard to describe that experience but there was something so strangely familiar in that laughter, something that felt so "close", that I got up and went there to see up close who was laughing - and that's how I met the girl who turned out to be my "summer crush". We became close that summer and I remember her with love even after some 30 years.
The memory of this girl also makes me question what you said about being "attracted enough" to someone. Because maybe (sometimes? always?) it goes the other way. That girl I am talking about was not a classical beauty and if Tinder existed at that time, I don't know... but the way she was behaving (and laughing) rewrote my standards of beauty almost instantly and I remember having the wildest erotic dreams with her after that first evening.
I had multiple experiences like that in my life - talking to someone and after a minute or an hour you feel something clicked. Some of those experiences led to various types of relationships, including a friendship that lasts more than 20 years now.
I think what blocks those kinds of experiences is being too much in your head. You seem like a very rational, analytical person. I am like that and it is not easy to turn it off... but maybe there are certain activities or situations that turn that off a little bit for you and you could try finding them? For me, that situation is for example traveling or being somewhere new. Maybe the need to pay attention to my unfamiliar surroundings more gets me out of my head. I am not sure. BTW, that reminds me - do you know the "Before..." trilogy? That is the best portrayal of a connection that I know of. Every time I watch that, it gets me from that analytical state of mind to something a lot more open - which is why I love those movies.
EDIT: Originally, I linked to a video-essay about the "Before..." trilogy, but I realized it contains spoilers. I like that essay and I still want to share the link, but only watch after you have seen the movie: The Before Trilogy | Portraying a Real Relationship
To launch off from something that's been brought up a few times already - why do you all think that going in with specific intentions dooms me from the start? I've also heard this before and don't understand it. And, perhaps ironically, it will be the easiest to communicate this problem with me analytically.
Do you have a best friend? If so, did you find that best friend by setting out to find a best friend? Or did it just happen?
Relationships are not easily quantifiable or simple to analyze. There are too many factors to consider, and it's not an equation you can just balance.
Sometimes, the best friendships and relationships are the ones that don't seem like they would work on paper. Some types of opposites clash, while other opposites complement each other. And some similarities mesh well, while others can create a feedback loop.
You're setting out to find something but you don't really know what you want. You might think you do, but usually the qualities we think we want aren't what works for us at all.
Yes I have a best friend. And you're right I was only trying to find a friend at the time - having just moved to a new area.
Really, relationships aren't supposed to be that easy. If you could just Google search for the perfect person, well, everyone would do that. I myself don't think that dooms you, but I do think it means that you lack flexibility.
Sometimes things just won't go your way, both in and out of relationships, but that's life. If you only want to date to get to being soulmates, like others have said, that's a lot of pressure on both you and the woman you're dating. Do you feel like you have to be a potential soulmate anytime you're on a date? Do you feel like you can be yourself on dates? Do you think your dates can sense how much pressure you're putting on them? If a date does anything that's not what you envision from a soulmate, does that mean it's time to move on? Do you find you have a lot of dealbreakers when on dates? These are questions you might want to ask yourself while on a date, and maybe the answers you have can put things in perspective a bit.
Of course I don't mean to imply that dealbreakers are a bad thing; it's good to have solid boundaries. But if everything is a boundary then your partner will feel like the relationship is more work than anything else.
Ultimately, my advice is to take it one date at a time. Jumping too far forward will scare people away because they won't think the relationship will be worth their time, and I think this is the flexibility that your outlook is missing.
To make a cautious answer to my own question - this may be an issue of models vs. true systems. "All models are wrong" they say. Actively trying to to find someone means I need to handle a model of myself and apply it to people. But going it the other way means I'm actually using my real self to figure out who fits.
I agree, I have seen this in other “nerdy” guys, and previously myself. You need to be able to switch out of “analyze”mode and into “fun” mode basically. Especially important if you work a job like software engineering where you have to be in “analyze” mode all day.
I don’t recommend this, and apologies if this is against the rules, but taking LSD for a few very introspective, contemplative trips helped me with this a lot and helped me to understand and connect with my emotions much more. I realized I was inadvertently going into “analyze” mode as a sort of defense against insecurity and anxiety I was feeling about my self/self worth.
Agreed that psychedelics are helpful. I took a small dose recently and made some progress.
I definitely relate to Data/Spock the most in Star Trek. And yes I have been talking with a therapist as a way to explore this topic.
It seemed too terrifying to be that intimate, emotionally and physically, with anyone. I fell in love with someone who also shared that fear after college. Not a good time. Just heartbreak. Then afterwards I realized I'd survived it and it could only get better from there.
Dude if you create a path that will get you to be your best version every time and the ladies will start to appear. Why? They don't like to feel that they are out biggest goal.
Having a girl is not success it itself but an indirect marker of success.
I don't think I'm viewing a female partner as a marker of success. More so acknowledging I would enjoy having a spouse, want to have biological children, and if I can find someone that's also a good friend and we like taking care of each other that's clearly an additive thing in my life.
I've given up on dating.
Online dating is a miserable and soul-destroying experience for men, because the only matches you get on an app are either from a fake account trying to pull a crypto love scam, e-girls astroturfing the platform to push their OnlyFans, or foreign women from halfway across the world spoofing their geographic location so they can snag a Western spouse and the means to a green card.
Several months ago, Okcupid Customer Support gave me a month of free premium (an incredibly clingy Turkish lady had been harassing me across multiple accounts.) It confirmed my suspicions when I found out all 50+ matches I had weren't even from Europe. About 60% were from East/South East Asia and 40% were from Africa. Many falsified their locations just to match with Westerners, which is a bannable offence but Match Group don't give a fuck.
As for meeting people IRL, I've been bullied throughout secondary school and have a lot of anxiety around approaching women. Also, none of the women I know IRL are actually single.
Aside from the scammers, why not be open to foreign women? What if your "someone" just happens to be in a different country than you?
I worked in immigration for a time, mostly processing K-1 and K-3 Visas. While there were some that were obviously not real mutual relationships (you can just tell when pouring through their applications) plenty of lonely men (and women) were finding luck across the world.
Because I've done it before and don't want to go through that again. Is it too much to ask to date somebody who is residing in my own country and not 7000 miles away in a place like Jakarta or Manila?
I've done two LDRs before with ladies based in Germany and Japan. Don't want to go through that again.
Wasn't being specific about where I was based. I'm from England. I know people who have brought foreign spouses into the country and been intensively grilled and forced to surrender years of message logs to the Home Office. We unfortunately made it a lot harder to bring foreign spouses into the country due to a crackdown on mail order brides. Compare this to say... Japan where if you marry a Japanese person, they'll basically give you a visa so long as you don't have a criminal record.
I'm sorry dude. I was bullied at times as well.
I think you are overthinking too much. There is one book I recommend to read called No More Mr. Nice Guy. Few eye openers I had from my dating years and I always remind myself "you don't look for happiness from someone, you make your build your happiness and you invite someone to your world".
Uh... that book sounds like some straight up right-wing propaganda, red-pill, manosphere shit. From the book description:
And from a review on Amazon:
Well that all sounds nasty as hell. What is with this desire to go back and be this sort of man?
I'm just going to guess. I think some people love the idea of predefined gender roles. Outside of these antiquated systems there aren't any popular gender role memes (to use meme in the original sense of the word). Adopting an existing gender/gender role system might be comforting to those that aren't able to build a gender identity from the ground up.
I also think these types of guys are often just misogynists. They recognize that in a world where women are treated as property and must rely on their fathers and later husbands to provide for them, it's a lot easier to find a wife without actually making yourself appealing to women bc women need to focus on survival rather than compatibility. And since these guys think of women as objects to fulfill their desires rather than their own people anyway, it seems like an obvious improvement over the status quo.
I think that's right - but I feel that "just misogynists" cuts the analysis short of the true root cause. Not that I've necessarily figured these men out completely.
Fair, but absent the root cause of their misogyny I give what explanation I can. I'm not knowledgeable enough to really identify where the misogyny would have ultimately come from.