Edit: I would suggest reading the comment below from @Canekicker over my own. It has sources and further reading. I think it's more valuable to this discussion than my anecdotal experience. Can't...
Exemplary
Edit: I would suggest reading the comment below from @Canekicker over my own. It has sources and further reading. I think it's more valuable to this discussion than my anecdotal experience.
Can't recall who, but someone on Tildes recently pointed out that boys are kind of getting corralled toward grifters, Nazis, and right wing psychos because they're the only people giving young men a safe space to talk about their problems.
I tend to agree.
Just because the patriarchy has been dominant and oppressive for so long doesn't mean that boys don't also need guidance and warmth in navigating this new world.
The sins of the father are not a good reason to dismiss the struggles of the son, much like the sins of white ancestors aren't a good reason to dismiss the problems faced by working class whites.
I think the backlash against white males has occasionally stopped being a dialogue and instead turned into, "shut up and listen, it's not your turn."
I understand the impulse, I understand the reasoning, and I understand privilege. But it's not productive in my opinion. It's spiteful.
Third-wave feminism was notable for acknowledging that the patriarchy harms men. But I don't know if I would ever give third-wave credit for actually caring about the harmed men.
Boys need role models and they need to feel heard. More importantly, they need to feel cared about. I think this is true for white people too in the context of racial injustice.
Look, I'm a white male so it's possible I just have my blinders on. I'm very open to being corrected. But I consider myself to be a feminist and I think the best way to achieve these goals is going to be through warmth and understanding, even if it's hard to give that to men after what we (as a collective) have done to women (as a collective).
Women have a lot more freedom to complain about men without judgement than the inverse. Women have more freedom to share their struggles. Venting, discussing, growing, learning, being wrong, being young and dumb - these are vital for every single human being. Even the white son of a billionaire will have challenges they face. Nobody on the planet is free from struggle or distress.
Often, the only place many young men feel empowered to do this is in spaces that are shared by misogynists and actual Nazis. That's a huge problem and it's going to hurt everyone if we don't do something.
To add some context, I teach 8th grade and many of my students over the last few years have gotten into Andrew Tate. I have been very vocal about what a piece of shit he is whenever I hear his name. But it's obviously very concerning to me. I think getting angry with them and dismissing them is falling into Andrew Tate's trap. Every time a young man's struggles are dismissed, Andrew Tate and his ilk get another potential target.
It's more than just that though. It is routine for me to be the only woman on a call for work matters, especially when it's just the first rung of management. I have to make my voice heard on...
Virtually every single man that will read your comment here is not some CEO or politician.
It's more than just that though. It is routine for me to be the only woman on a call for work matters, especially when it's just the first rung of management. I have to make my voice heard on these calls otherwise the conversational football only gets passed around by the men. For these scenarios, so few of them mentally bookmark that the lone woman on the call should be given a moment to speak too. I don't want to assume this happens everywhere, but it sure happens a lot more than I am comfortable with. When the scenario is flipped, i.e. more women then men on a discussion, there is better equality in mic time and sharing ideas.
That view of men being dominantly in charge extends beyond just a workplace title. It's as simple as going to the doctor alone as a woman and being dismissed, but having my concerns taken more seriously when I have my husband advocate for me especially when it is a male doctor. Why was my voice not enough to be taken seriously? And that's why some of us blame the societal acceptions that patriarchy has established.
It is entirely possible for both your experience to be valid and for young boys to also feel alienated in our world. We should try to extend empathy and understanding to find common ground with...
It's more than just that though
It is entirely possible for both your experience to be valid and for young boys to also feel alienated in our world. We should try to extend empathy and understanding to find common ground with other people, else we wind up turning them into enemies. You make a great point but I fear it's orthoganal to the point the original commenter made: by sticking to feminist guns and never compromising, the movement is driving young men into the arms of a very dangerous crowd.
I'm not saying we should ease up on feminist progress, your anecdotes are perfect examples of how we still have a long ways to go. But we're not doing society any favors by ignoring the issue that this post is about.
What’s your evidence that it’s feminism that it’s feminism “never compromising” that’s radicalizing young men? As opposed to the rise in popularity in fascist movements in the broader culture,...
by sticking to feminist guns and never compromising, the movement is driving young men into the arms of a very dangerous crowd.
What’s your evidence that it’s feminism that it’s feminism “never compromising” that’s radicalizing young men?
As opposed to the rise in popularity in fascist movements in the broader culture, economic and political instability, isolation due to a pandemic, social media algorithms tuned to push radicalizing content because research shows that generates greater revenue, all of which there is supporting research for?
And yet it fell upon women to create the feminist organizations that would make meaningful progress for women's rights and equality. Women created the spaces for women to talk about women's...
An incredibly small percentage of men. I worry this is the type of generalization that turns off young men.
And yet it fell upon women to create the feminist organizations that would make meaningful progress for women's rights and equality. Women created the spaces for women to talk about women's issues. If men want those spaces of their own, they are responsible for creating them. However, when men do try to create "men's rights" spaces, typically they do end up going off the deep end into misogyny and conspiracy theories. Those Nazi "safe spaces" that some young men are drawn to are created by other men.
I have a simple technique for you. When people discuss the subset of men that are MRAers, or incels, or rapists, or whatever characteristic they have an issue with, and if you’re not an MRAer,...
I think a lot of men would just like to stop being generalized in with the MRA and incel groups just for existing
I have a simple technique for you. When people discuss the subset of men that are MRAers, or incels, or rapists, or whatever characteristic they have an issue with, and if you’re not an MRAer, incels, rapist, etc., then assume they’re not talking about you.
Most people don’t even know what MRAers or incels are. How many people are labeling men as MRAers/incels “just for existing”?
As were ancient Greece and Rome although the tribal societies may have been significantly less so. See for example Boudicca. An interesting side note, among primates we are equally related to...
As were ancient Greece and Rome although the tribal societies may have been significantly less so. See for example Boudicca.
An interesting side note, among primates we are equally related to Chimpanzees that are male dominant and Bonobos that very much are not.
Fair point. I'll make two counterpoints right off the cuff. These are admittedly not well-considered positions so please don't eviscerate me if you don't agree. But the devil's advocate in me...
Fair point.
I'll make two counterpoints right off the cuff. These are admittedly not well-considered positions so please don't eviscerate me if you don't agree. But the devil's advocate in me immediately snapped back with two things that I'm not even sure I necessarily agree with.
If you want men to care about women's problems, should you not also care about men's problems?
Is it possible that the only people with the courage to advocate for men in the current social climate are shameless misogynists and grifters? I personally know a lot of men who are feminists and I don't think any of us would feel comfortable starting any kind of men's advocate group or even a men's domestic violence shelter. I think the backlash and vitriol would be absolutely horrendous.
Genuinely just looking for some insight and I'm always open to learning. I hope I've not said anything offensive here.
Just popping in with unprompted 2 cents. I think men can create those spaces and advocate for/raise up positive behaviors, even without being a CEO or President. I have a small team at work and we...
Just popping in with unprompted 2 cents.
I think men can create those spaces and advocate for/raise up positive behaviors, even without being a CEO or President. I have a small team at work and we make it clear that problematic behavior isn't acceptable and supportive/encouraging behavior is required. We expect patience and respect from both the men and women on our team, and by and large we get it. We hold one on ones to check in individually, we listen when folks have complaints, we act when people breach our mutual understanding. The feedback is largely positive and retention is really high.
I think we all have a small sphere of influence - within our friend groups, at work, in our families - to create those spaces to be supportive and encouraging of men while guiding them way from problematic behavior. I don't even think it need to be a single gender space. Like others said, we need people to care.
To point 2, I don't think they are the only ones with the courage to advocate for men, I think advocating is maybe the wrong word. Women are gaining rights, and I think what is uncomfortable about that, that we often ignore, is that it means there is a loss for men. A loss of control. A loss of position. A loss of identity. And that's a good thing, because the control, position, and in many cases identity come at the cost of the women in the dynamic. There is a balancing. But I think that is why folks like Andrew Tate are popular, they are advocating for taking those "rights" back. That is why these folks are the only ones advocating for men, the folks who are doing the real work are doing the quiet work of having men feel heard, understood, and helping them to build a new identity. For other youtube celebrities I think Beau Miles does this in a really great way. It's out there, they just don't get the same bandwidth because it's not as satisfying a response to the feeling of loss.
Never heard of this guy, but hoo boy as a parent can I ever relate to that video. Thanks for the link!
For other youtube celebrities I think Beau Miles does this in a really great way. It's out there, they just don't get the same bandwidth because it's not as satisfying a response to the feeling of loss.
Never heard of this guy, but hoo boy as a parent can I ever relate to that video. Thanks for the link!
My initial thoughts were on parallel (but not identical) lines. In a similar vein I don't disagree with Blakdragon, but for the sake of a dialog I want to share a couple thoughts as well. I think...
My initial thoughts were on parallel (but not identical) lines. In a similar vein I don't disagree with Blakdragon, but for the sake of a dialog I want to share a couple thoughts as well.
I think men do display guidance and warmth to each other. An issue of the patriarchy is that they do so too liberally at the expense of others. The challenge is (as you alluded) men who are best equipped to mentor a progressive worldview are repelled by the idea of being even tenuously associated with the "manosphere."
100% Anecdotal: I've experienced more judgement/questioning of my masculinity from women. As heterosexuals it's worth observing that expectations of the gender we want to attract play a big role in how we want to present ourselves-- especially as adolescents/young adults. Edit: I forgot a caveat here, not all women are your mother. I think some marginalized men have this twisted view of how women are supposed to relate to men.
What are the issues you want to talk about and who isn't giving you the space for it? In my experience, I feel least safe to be myself -- and least confident my masculinity won't be attacked -- in...
What are the issues you want to talk about and who isn't giving you the space for it? In my experience, I feel least safe to be myself -- and least confident my masculinity won't be attacked -- in the company of the men that gravitate around these men's rights personages. I find it's like an extension of that high school mentality where your grit is constantly being tested, rather than letting you just... be.
I agree with you. I would never feel comfortable with these types of men. But you and I aren't everybody. And we have to try to understand why the young men are gravitating toward Andrew Tate....
I agree with you. I would never feel comfortable with these types of men.
But you and I aren't everybody. And we have to try to understand why the young men are gravitating toward Andrew Tate. This is the best explanation I've come up with. Is there something I'm missing?
I don't think young men are just waking up and deciding to check out Tate because of reasons. I think young men are often insecure about themselves and are being targeted by culture war grifters...
And we have to try to understand why the young men are gravitating toward Andrew Tate. This is the best explanation I've come up with. Is there something I'm missing?
I don't think young men are just waking up and deciding to check out Tate because of reasons. I think young men are often insecure about themselves and are being targeted by culture war grifters trying to increase their influence. Insecure women are also targeted (by a whole different industry) and it's obviously an effective tactic. Who knows how millenial men would have fared growing up in the algorithms of today? Probably not well.
There's also been a large cultural shift of what's OK and not OK in the last twenty years (just go watch any YA movie from the late 90s or early 2000s for an example). And I think that's great but it also means the calculus on what's cool or edgy or alternative etc. is also changing.
I can’t speak for every manosphere influencer that kids are following - I don’t even know who else there might be - but Andrew Tate in particular is really simple; he’s a living power fantasy. If...
I can’t speak for every manosphere influencer that kids are following - I don’t even know who else there might be - but Andrew Tate in particular is really simple; he’s a living power fantasy. If you only see him on social media all you see is that he’s muscular and has features that society likes, and he uses those to get women, money, opportunities, and power.
To add to this, because he's a grifter, he can offer step-by-step instructions that feel actionable, or at least visualizable. It doesn't matter if they actually work, or if the outcome when they...
To add to this, because he's a grifter, he can offer step-by-step instructions that feel actionable, or at least visualizable. It doesn't matter if they actually work, or if the outcome when they do work is a good one. Tate doesn't care. If we could offer advice that was that simple and understandable about being a good man, we'd have a much better fighting chance. But actually doing good things successfully can't be explained that easily. It's a lot more nuanced. Advice for how to talk to a girl that takes her comfort into account is going to by nature be a lot more complicated and difficult to communicate than advice that seeks to make her uncomfortable. I actually think this might be more important than the power. I think if an equally impressive progressive guy started a competing tiktok or YouTube channel or what have you, he'd struggle to compete, because simple advice just isn't as easy to give if you care about it being ethical and accurate.
I find the talk about role models to be a bit confusing whenever it comes up. Could you give an example of one that exists for women or girls that doesn't exist for boys and men? In every context...
I find the talk about role models to be a bit confusing whenever it comes up. Could you give an example of one that exists for women or girls that doesn't exist for boys and men? In every context I can think of boys have as many or more role models as girls, but as a woman maybe I'm missing something.
I do agree that boys should be given plenty of guidance and warmth, and that criticism levied at white men as a group in any context where young boys might see it (I.e. not venting to friends over a glass of wine) is not likely to be productive or appropriate. It's only the role model thing that confuses me.
The patriarchy values shitty men. I'm not blaming feminism for that. But as a young man who grew up without a father and no older brothers (all younger), I really had to figure out what being a...
The patriarchy values shitty men.
I'm not blaming feminism for that.
But as a young man who grew up without a father and no older brothers (all younger), I really had to figure out what being a man meant for myself. At various points in my life I thought different things and my views continue to evolve.
At one point, I thought my value was tied to my romantic success. I was a serial dater and was very proud of having girlfriends who were "out of my league" in terms of looks. This was high school and I knew nothing of feminism other than "girl power!" I wasn't a creep or a sexist piece of garbage, but I was not a feminist and this was just what I thought was normal.
At other points, I thought my manhood was tied to being physically tough. I'm not big so I settled for scrappy. I got suspended from school several times for fights.
At one point, I misunderstood feminism and thought my value was related to being sensitive. Interestingly, it was mostly women who didn't like this. Granted, it was young women because I was a young man. As an adult man I find it to be much more highly valued. Women have fawned over me for doing very basic things like giving a shit about my wife and child or washing the dishes. Yeah, the bar really is on the floor for being a good guy I guess.
I didn't have any male role models. Still don't have any that really stand out other than one (probably gay) teacher I had who was just a very kind and amazing person. He really was more like a social worker and counselor to me. Great guy.
Celebs? Movie characters? I don't know, even in media men are mostly valued for being men of action and strength. Keanu Reeves often gets mentioned. He seems pretty awesome but I don't know enough about him to truly endorse that.
As I mentioned elsewhere, for celebrities I go straight to men like Patrick Stewart, Mark Ruffalo and LeBron James, not for being strong but because of the work they do to help people who need it...
As I mentioned elsewhere, for celebrities I go straight to men like Patrick Stewart, Mark Ruffalo and LeBron James, not for being strong but because of the work they do to help people who need it - abused women, people with no or little access to clean water, and children, respectively. In fiction I think of characters like Uncle Iroh from Avatar, who was powerful, but his greater strength was wisdom and kindness. Or Captain Picard, who could probably fight okay, but all of his memorable moments were feats of diplomacy or confidence in his crew or force of will. He's not even the only good role model on that show! Data was curious, introspective, empathetic even when that didn't make sense to the people around him, and constantly incorporating new ideas into his sense of self. That's a great role model! Geordie and Warf also had lots of good qualities but I've talked too much about this show already.
I'm sorry that no one stood out to you or spoke to you that way when you were young. That's a genuine issue and you deserved to have someone to look up to. I would also love to see men praised more for their non-combat prowess in the media that we make. But as far as role models not existing, I'm still not seeing it. I'm open to being corrected, really I am, but I feel like I'm missing something.
There’s been a distinct lack of shows centered around thoroughly competent yet human characters like TNG in the past couple of decades, which is unfortunate. As you say I think such shows provide...
There’s been a distinct lack of shows centered around thoroughly competent yet human characters like TNG in the past couple of decades, which is unfortunate. As you say I think such shows provide great role models for younger people.
I also look up to Picard but didn't discover him until later in life :/ I also don't think he would appeal to most of my students. Thanks for the feedback and food for thought!
I also look up to Picard but didn't discover him until later in life :/ I also don't think he would appeal to most of my students.
Edit: I suppose I get it if not done on a conscious level. You look for similar beliefs and behavior and want to acquaint with like people but this conscious notion of masculinity or feminity I...
I really had to figure out what being a man meant for myself
Edit: I suppose I get it if not done on a conscious level. You look for similar beliefs and behavior and want to acquaint with like people but this conscious notion of masculinity or feminity I didn't give much thought. Although most of my behavior tended to align with typical male behavior so I suppose you can say I'm privileged to not have to think much about it. But if you're consciously trying to manipulate young people into doing your bidding, following your beliefs, I'd express caution. Sometimes they'll see the propaganda and turn the other way, I know I did against conservatism, in general.
As a white man, that's all very confusing to me. When I was growing up, I just was. Sure, there were some social circles I wanted to fit within and goals to accomplish but thinking 'I'm this sex therefore I need to act like this sex' was something I never gave much thought. Or I'm this kind of 'thing' so I need to consciously look for and to other similar 'things'. I don't get that, don't guess I ever will. Sure, I never made much friends but it wasn't something I cared for either, just finding 'truth', finding myself, was more priority.
I think it just comes from the perception of these figures promoting misogyny acting in a role model capacity and how that seems to really resonate with young men. Speaking as a young-ish (late...
I think it just comes from the perception of these figures promoting misogyny acting in a role model capacity and how that seems to really resonate with young men. Speaking as a young-ish (late 20's) guy myself, looking at other people's lives (whether historic, current, or even fictional) and trying to take lessons from them has been a common paradigm of my thinking ever since childhood. The fact that there's no prominent alternatives to your Andrew Tates of the world is disheartening and makes me a bit scared for the future.
Well, Andrew Tate is preying on them. I can't think of anyone who held themselves up as a role model - for any demographic - that wasn't doing it primarily for the purposes of grifting their...
Well, Andrew Tate is preying on them. I can't think of anyone who held themselves up as a role model - for any demographic - that wasn't doing it primarily for the purposes of grifting their audiences. Tony Robbins has been in the game for years.
The best role models have always been people who just do good things. And there are plenty of those! There's famous people like Mark Ruffalo, who works with Water Defense and other charities in his free time, Patrick Stewart, who works to help abused women, or LeBron James, who works with various children's causes.
If you're looking for examples of people that are more "online", that gets a little tricky for me personally because a lot of what I enjoy wouldn't be appropriate for boys younger than 10 or 11, but even then I can think of a few examples. The McElroy brothers are creative, empathetic and funny, and each of them has different strengths and weaknesses that boys could learn from. FD Signifier is a YouTuber who talks about race and gender, but also sometimes music or sports. He's thoughtful, intelligent, empathetic and he frequently talks about his own experiences and offers (far less grifty) advise.
And maybe none of that is what people are looking for when this topic comes up. I don't know. That's kind of what I'm having a hard time with. Do you want a grifter with good morals? Or something else entirely?
I will never forget a couple of years ago on reddit running into a young person who was super into Mr. Beast and his charitable acts. That guy (I think) wanted to know what us old so and sos...
I will never forget a couple of years ago on reddit running into a young person who was super into Mr. Beast and his charitable acts. That guy (I think) wanted to know what us old so and sos thought about Mr. Beast and most of us had to say 'Never heard of him'.
Semi related, my mother made sure I read Little Women. One scene from that book, Laurie, the guy friend across the road, was asked what his heroes were. He knew immediately and answered Napoleon. I wonder if there was more done in education in that century to get young men to identify heroes to admire. I wonder if there is more our education system could do.
I still don't understand how Andrew Tate has gotten so popular for young kids. Like, I would understand if this was an issue for late teens believing they are gonna be rich and muscled and all...
I still don't understand how Andrew Tate has gotten so popular for young kids.
Like, I would understand if this was an issue for late teens believing they are gonna be rich and muscled and all that typical stuff.
But that's not really the case, Andrew Tate has a lot of followers with age 10-12. That's insane, and I don't understand how anything he says is even relatable to them. Wasn't he even arrested? He's very obviously a scam!
So I've been curious about this for the last few years and found these recent pieces helped quite a bit when it comes to understanding this current trend Ezra Klein Show episode with Richard...
Exemplary
So I've been curious about this for the last few years and found these recent pieces helped quite a bit when it comes to understanding this current trend
NYT podcast series by Kevin Roose called Rabbit Hole about online radicalization
I really love all these pieces and as an elder millennial, it really helped me understand what younger men are experiencing and what they're exposed to. On some level I'm quite sympathetic to it because I don't think I could have avoided falling into the same trappings if I were gen-z, but on the other, I'm like god damn, how do y'all not see how fucked up this is.
One solution you'll hear is that young men need more forms of positive masculinity. While I completely agree ,after all you can never have too many positive influences, I do believe the counter point that there are quite a few examples of positive masculinity out there. Additionally, what positive masculinity fails to offer these boys is the sense or feeling that they are personally "winning". I think what's scary to me is I'm unsure how to reverse the tide and feel that gen-z boys will be a lost generation
edit : grammar and typos. also thanks to @wolf_359 for repping this comment. Here's hoping that the line for this type of thinking is drawn here, this far, no further.
I think this is often where I get most lost in discussions on male/female imbalances and issues with altright manosphere brainwashing. It's often presented as a binary choice - we must embrace...
Exemplary
I do believe the counter point that there are quite a few examples of positive masculinity out there. Additionally, what positive masculinity fails to offer these boys is the sense or feeling that they are personally "winning". I think what's scary to me is I'm unsure how to reverse the tide and feel that gen-z boys will be a lost generation
I think this is often where I get most lost in discussions on male/female imbalances and issues with altright manosphere brainwashing. It's often presented as a binary choice - we must embrace this shill kind of masculinity more and work on programs to help men or we will end up with an alienated sex. While I agree wholeheartedly that we need more programs to help men, the message that the manosphere is the only place that affirms that masculinity or does so in a special way feels mislead to me. There seems to be a conscious ignoring of all the positive male role models which are not toxic. They sometimes even point to figures like Mr. Rogers as an example of positive male role modeling but ignore modern counterparts because they are either too feminine or not what they're talking about. There's a simultaneous desire for positive masculinity with a partial or complete erasure of anything that has any aspects of femininity (often paradoxical in that they may point to someone like Mr. Rogers as being a positive role model but call another, even more masculine model too feminine because the rosy lens through which they reflect upon nostalgia).
I find, often, that the biggest point of conflict online when men talk about the issues they are rightfully seeing with society as it currently exists and reflect upon where they are being left out or lagging behind their female peers, is one of fragility. If you've ever been in minority spaces, such as black liberation, or other strong progressive movements, you'll find that a similar dynamic plays out between the words being put forth by revolutionaries and the general populace. White folks are often too fragile to participate in these discussions without feeling alienated by the very people they in many cases support and wish to help out, and some of them find themselves pushed out of these conversations because they find them too emotionally polarizing. The popular message often is a watered down version of the progressive one for this reason - palatability decreases as you challenge people's assumptions and thoughts about the world, and many people do not have the emotional bandwidth to sit with some of the true but horrifying messages that reflection upon inequality has brought us. On this point I think the authors of these think pieces have a really good message to share - the palatability of what men have been presented with over the last twenty years may very well be quite low and that these men are turning towards more palatable messages even if it includes indoctrination into a socially harmful mindset.
I think the one part I perhaps diverge from the authors of these pieces is that I think this is almost assuredly a reflection of social design. The authors do point out that men are falling behind in school and thus need help, but they don't talk about how schools have changed over the years to punish aggression and typical male outbursts and negatively viewed behavior. They don't talk about how schools are designed in a matter which involve teaching and interventions which tend to favor women over men. They don't talk about how men are often thrust into working at earlier ages than women to help provide, drawing on social narratives such as "men must provide for the family" which discourages them from attending college. They only briefly mention the decline of trades, while failing to mention that in many trades the way you learn is hands on (which men respond to at slightly better rates than women) and through a mentor (despite decrying the lack of male mentors and male educators throughout early life). There is no mention on how there's a male mental health crisis in which outbursts often result in harsher social penalties (more likely to be written up for being angry at a coworker than bursting into tears, more likely to be thrown into prison or shot/killed for the perception of being aggressive/threatening when having a mental breakdown) and how there's a distinct lack of resources being thrown at alternative modalities for improving male mental health. They may point to the decline of male socialization in public spaces but often ignore the disappearance of third spaces and ignore how men often have smaller social groups than women and the importance of male bonding at work and after hours work bonding.
Perhaps most glaringly, I see a lack of discussion around some extremely positive changes in male friendship which provide a social support which is frankly rather new for young men (older men are more allowed to discuss feelings, especially as they enter fatherhood) and desperately needs to be tapped into. What used to be considered gay or effeminate, such as sharing feelings about being frustrated with dating, being able to cry or express emotions which are not anger, and the ability to enjoy not typically masculine activities such as gardening is perhaps socially at an all time high acceptability amongst Gen Z, and this extremely pivotal kind of emotional support is a desperate kind of mental health need in the male space. I see vanishingly little offering support to boys and men on how to offer this kind of support in a healthy manner to other men, or resources to help men who find themselves getting burnt out or lost in the space. The larger your social circle the more you can rely upon others to support you when you're in need, and men are only just starting to form these kinds of deeply emotional bonds with their bros on a level approaching women - they often don't have circles large enough to support their needs that emerge from helping others and it's easy to get burnt out, especially when you're taught to be self-sufficient and independent as a man and reaching out for help can be seen as feminine. I can see how this rapid change in social dynamics and social burnout could easily lead to emotional exhaustion making one more susceptible to messages like the one Jordan Peterson espouses.
Anyhow, I wanted to thank you for these links and this reading. It's useful to get the perspective of other folks on this matter and where they focus their thoughts on the emerging problem as well as the solutions they see which are all helpful in their own ways.
I'll second the recommendation for the Ezra Klein podcast. I listened to it when it first came out, and as a father with boys, it struck close to home. The podcast does a good job laying out the...
I'll second the recommendation for the Ezra Klein podcast. I listened to it when it first came out, and as a father with boys, it struck close to home. The podcast does a good job laying out the lack of institutions that track male specific issues, such as where men disproportionately experience fatalities, or that they are falling in college enrollments.
(If the podcast requires a gift link let me know and I'll post one.)
The podcast also discusses the absence of positive role models who make themselves available to directly answer the question of what it means to be a man and how to do it in today's world. When you don't have good male role models putting themselves out there, you leave a void for the Andrew Tate's of the world to fill.
You mention that there are plenty of positive male role models, but I don't know that I agree fully. There are plenty of good men who are visible. Men have good representation in media, politics, life in general. But how many of them are offering real guidance on the issues younger men face? Or the how and why of being a good man? Being a good role model requires speaking out about these things, and I don't see very much of that. Mostly I see good men say what not to do by condemning deplorable behavior. Which is important, but not real guidance. You need to give ideas of what to do, and not simply call out the bad. One of the last real role models that spoke to boys that I recall was Mr. Rogers. He took the time to explain to children, girls and boys, about their feelings, and how to be caring, and what to expect in how others treat you.
Where is Gen Z's Mr. Rogers?
I think there are a host of social challenges to overcome in order to get positive male role models out there, and to help them be engaging to young men. So much of what I've seen attempted is really just moralizing to boys about what not to do, or through the lens of other social issues. Of course young men tune that out. The message doesn't recognize them for who they are; it quantifies how they should behave based on how it will be received by others. Understanding your impact on others is important, but we also need to have healthy self-care messaging.
I'm reminded of my experiences as a manager and Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Most people in the workplace are so stuck on recognition, the penultimate level of actualization, that they can't truly self improve. As a manager, by consistently recognizing the good work of people, their intent, their efforts, they can feel recognized and move past it to start investing energy into real self improvement instead of chasing what they think will get them a feeling of recognition.
Until we can really generationally recognize boys and young men and make them feel recognized on their own merits, they will never consistently improve and grow as people. And you're right; if we fail to make them feel recognized, it will be a lost generation of men.
On a whole, I don't really disagree with you but I do have a contention with the idea of a "Gen-z Mr. Rogers". My general feeling is that the culture has splintered and is so far from the...
On a whole, I don't really disagree with you but I do have a contention with the idea of a "Gen-z Mr. Rogers". My general feeling is that the culture has splintered and is so far from the ostensible monoculture we had during Mr. Roger's time that there simply isn't anyone who can speak to an entire generation the same way as Mr. Rogers. It's why I included "Rabbit Hole" as it really talks about how quickly the algorithm guides someone from something relatively innocuous towards something far more pernicious. At the same time, those subgroups do have positive masculinity figures in them, they just aren't as loud and boisterous as the Andrew Tates of the world.
Then again, my honest hope is that young men and boys see some of their issues as not male specific (I honestly don't believe they all are) but something more universal to the human experience. Like I'm literally listening to this song by Sydney Sprauge while writing this and so much of this is connects at a human level. To me, recognizing our common human condition can inoculate us from the worst lies that conmen and assholes like Tate are trying to sell us. It feels starting from a "common human condition" is a great context to tackle the issues of what it means to be a young man in modern society.
I don't disagree with the fact that the world and technology has changed, and it isn't as feasible for single figures to have their message universally consumed, although Taylor Swift sure is...
but I do have a contention with the idea of a "Gen-z Mr. Rogers.
I don't disagree with the fact that the world and technology has changed, and it isn't as feasible for single figures to have their message universally consumed, although Taylor Swift sure is doing her best (go T-Dawg!)
But that is part of the problem. You say that there are plenty of good male role models in the myriad splintered ecosystems, and maybe that is true, maybe it isn't, but they are clearly harder to find.
There are what, 11 answers posted? And of those some are listing people like Markiplier, the primitive technology channel guy, and Mr. Beast. Generously speaking, some of these people are exactly what I was talking about; good men who are visible but not actively filling a role model role for young men. That isn't the main thrust of their channel, at all. The primitive technology guy doesn't even really talk! The top answer is a comedian, and it isn't until further down you even see someone who talks about life generally (Nathaniel Drew). The only answer I saw, over halfway down, that is in my opinion someone who is actually modeling themselves well, is Rob Kenney the dad how do I guy.
So if there are plenty of men out there with a platform, giving real advice to boys and young men about what it means to be a happy, healthy man in today's society, I can't find them, and neither could those other people.
I also don't agree that the "common human condition" is a good messaging platform to the exclusion of more specific messages. By that argument, we don't need women specific role models and messages (we definitely do need them), or black role models and messages (we do), or queer role models (yep, again, important to have).
So why is it that every group but boys and young men need specific role models and messaging? Because they boys need them too. Because people look to figures that they see themselves reflected in as potential role models. And to speak authentically about how to live a certain way requires that you've either done so, or have exhaustively studied it and are a singularly good communicator and perspective taker. I know this as a scout leader, and a father of boys and a girl, as a former court appointed child advocate, and as someone who has spent most of their career supporting inclusivity in higher ed. We need role models for every group, and we need every person to feel seen and valued while we also talk about how to make space for everyone and those other common human condition conversations you mention.
In the Ezra Klein podcast we both endorse, they talk about how the ratio of men and women in college has inverted from the time that title IX was introduced. We know something isn't going well for young men. Seriously, it's all in the podcast and the book. From depression, to life outlook, jobs, higher fatality rates, college, and radicalization. Young men and boys are disproportionately being harmed by something, and I don't think it is crazy that we might need some specific guidance and messaging for them.
As much as I agree with finding common humanity, that doesn't help young men answer practical questions around their social development, doesn't help them find their place in society, and doesn't help them feel seen. It's something that I think should be incorporated into conversations for everyone, but not as a replacement for more specific messaging.
The customer is always right in manners of taste, and young people need role models and messages that they see themselves in and who make them feel seen. I don't think telling young men to feminism harder makes struggling young men feel seen or heard.
To be clear, my point about common humanity isn't that it's a cure for this current trend of asshole influencers but that it's a baseline understanding in which young boys could start their...
To be clear, my point about common humanity isn't that it's a cure for this current trend of asshole influencers but that it's a baseline understanding in which young boys could start their exploration of masculinity in a healthy way. To me , it's harder to buy into the belief that rape victims are at fault or it's reasonable to beat women who make accusations of cheating , both things Tate has stated, if you have that level of empathy. It isn't a counter to this horrid mindset but maybe can help it from taking hold.
Point taken about finding someone to model their behavior. I initially had a comment about men I admire in niche,male dominated spaces but none of them are directly speaking to boys about how to behave and instead fall into that category of visible good men you discussed.
I do feel part of that is due to the fact that being secure about your masculinity means not shouting at people about how secure you are and telling them how to live. But I think back to my own understanding of masculinity and how I didn't have a role model guide teaching me it but instead had to learn, experience, and reflect which took years. Like you're saying boys these days aren't afforded that time and need a better more direct solution now.
edit : had good men around me, just no one overtly teaching "here's how to be a good man"
I definitely agree that empathy provides strong protection against hateful influences. I also think that developing perspective taking helps developing empathy. I always like to encourage kids to...
I definitely agree that empathy provides strong protection against hateful influences. I also think that developing perspective taking helps developing empathy. I always like to encourage kids to read stories. Reading, and reading novels in particular has been described as a perspective taking technology, and I rather like that description. Anything to foster an interest in looking through others eyes.
I do think that something has changed. Whether that is social media, or parents having less time to be a role model, or a decline in social groups that provided guidance, or a combination of all of it, I'm not prepared to stake a position. But it seems like young people across the board are given less time to figure themselves out before adopting beliefs or mindsets that are increasingly calcified, self reinforcing, and difficult to break out of.
To your point, I think it is difficult for stable, healthy, well adjusted men to try and build a platform. While I've spent significant time volunteering at the local level, it feels... attention seeking to try and tell people on YouTube to watch my videos on how to live their life. Artificial, inorganic, and lacking the personal back and forth. How can I give someone advice if I haven't asked them how they are doing? That's not my skillset. And yeah, I'm happily busy with my kids, and family, work, projects, and plans. And I think other men likely feel similarly.
Nah, thank you for talking through this. You're having to navigate this reality in very real way that for me, a DINK, is only an abstraction and a concern as someone who was formerly a boy. Here's...
Nah, thank you for talking through this. You're having to navigate this reality in very real way that for me, a DINK, is only an abstraction and a concern as someone who was formerly a boy. Here's hoping more take notice.
This is one reason why I think it’s a bad idea to look to media for examples of role models. The important ones are the ones who are local, and who will be leading by example. One of the worst...
This is one reason why I think it’s a bad idea to look to media for examples of role models. The important ones are the ones who are local, and who will be leading by example. One of the worst thing we have done to kids over the years is segregating them from society and leaving them to get their social interaction over the internet.
I don't think that comedians necessarily make bad role models. Comedians make a living from making people laugh, and to do that they have to build empathy and understanding. Just look at “Nanette”...
I don't think that comedians necessarily make bad role models. Comedians make a living from making people laugh, and to do that they have to build empathy and understanding. Just look at “Nanette” for an example. They are arguably the best people for spreading messages of this type.
I don't disagree. What I would add to clarify my point is that my subjective view of role models includes someone who is putting themselves out there to take questions and respond on some fashion....
I don't disagree. What I would add to clarify my point is that my subjective view of role models includes someone who is putting themselves out there to take questions and respond on some fashion. If a comedian told people to hit them up on social media, and responded to some or incorporated what they heard into their routines, then that could be a great example of a role model.
Being a role model involves making yourself vulnerable, letting people ask you questions, and explaining how you came to an answer based on your own lived experience.
I mentioned in another comment that I was a scout leader, college student life advisor, and volunteer child advocate. The one thing in common with all of my work with young people is that I took their questions, and answered using my own lived examples, and how I overcame and grappled with issues.
I don't think Mr. Rogers was a great role model just because of how he acted, but because he invited questions to the extent the technology would allow, focused on topics his viewers had questions on, and used himself as an example.
If we think of Mr. Rogers as an ideal male role model, then I think it becomes necessary to understand the concept of toxic masculinity and how it has defined the situation men are in today. After...
If we think of Mr. Rogers as an ideal male role model, then I think it becomes necessary to understand the concept of toxic masculinity and how it has defined the situation men are in today. After all, Mr. Rogers was and is still not considered to be anything near to an icon of masculinity.
Many men (and boys) today think of masculinity as a thing that is central to their identity. Masculinity is not a physical trait though; it’s essentially whatever we decide it to be, and those decisions are quietly determined culturally rather than decided on an individual level with by applying reasoning. And the problem with this is that for many people and places the idea has been poisoned. It can mean violent, dominant, controlling, unfeeling, emotionally closed, and things like that. Proponents might say that these ideas are perversions of the positive traits, like emotional stability, stoicism, strength, and leadership. The problem with that is that those are very complex things that have to be taught in depth and learned over time, whereas masculinity is something impressed upon boys at a very young age before they can grasp what those mean with any depth. So they often learn the perverted negative traits and it takes a long time for them to master the positive ones - if they ever do, that is.
Personally speaking, I think the worst thing about masculinity is the expectation that males have to perform those roles. I’m an existentialist; I don’t think this is healthy and I would much rather have our young men learning how to be authentic and not have to deal with the pain of performing an artificial role for the sake of others. I was fairly lucky in one aspect in my youth; when I came out as gay I didn’t have many negative reactions to it, so in the time afterwords I was able to interact with people authentically, without all of the masks I would have hid myself behind, and as a result my social life had improved by several orders of magnitude and my friends had exploded in numbers. I want this to be a thing that happens for the current generations of men, and I wish it were something that future generations would not have to deal with.
Role models are the examples where I see the biggest problems with masculinity. When I think of masculine role models I do not think of figures like Mr. Rogers or Captain Picard like others have mentioned. I think of movie stars like Vin Diesel or Jason Mamoa or any other major action star. And the one shining thing that brings them together is violence, plain and simple. This is the thing we are pushing on boys to become; even if we are doing a better job of teaching them to not fight, there’s clearly an idea that they need to project the idea that they would win in a fight. And that’s a fucking insane thing to expect of a young boy.
Men in general over the past twenty years are constantly accused of basically being the source of much evil in the world. At least by certain vocal segment, particularly online. Especially white...
Exemplary
Men in general over the past twenty years are constantly accused of basically being the source of much evil in the world. At least by certain vocal segment, particularly online. Especially white men. The default position seems to be "oh, you're a white guy? Fuck you, shut up, be ashamed."
That's bad enough. To just throw that charge and thought, attitude, conclusion, around in general. Absent proof to justify it. To just default to assuming "white male, must be an evil racist sexist asshole" and then treat someone according to that pronouncement.
What about young guys? Even if we're to believe "the patriarchy" is solely responsible for all this stuff in the world, all of it evil and wrong and horrible ... how can that be the fault of males under 20? Or really even males into their 20s? How is it possible all these young men and boys are at fault for things they haven't participated in?
Yet, again, there's this persistent attitude that's dismissive and accusatory toward men. Made worse by how many people aren't rich, aren't "privileged."
How do you think a young man, who can't find a well paying job, who's being accused of being creepy and gross when he takes what money he has and heads out to a bar or club or where ever to try and date, reacts to that accusation? He's struggling, he's unhappy, and he's alone ... but he's apparently evil, and has done all this stuff that's his fault.
That's what this poll is picking up. Frustration and being convicted in absentia, and held in societal purgatory as punishment.
Bigotry is when you treat people unfairly, when you purposefully shape your actions and attitude toward them on arbitrary factors like gender or race. Rather than shaping your views and decisions based on their actions.
If someone's an asshole, meaning they're actually doing asshole things, then treat them like an asshole. But if they're not acting poorly, badly, problematically, treating them as if they are is not going to encourage them to care much (if at all) about your attitude, your position, your views.
What would be the reaction if men started stomping around, screaming about women, the way some women will just so casually accuse men of all this horrible stuff. Accusing women of being exclusionary and prejudiced? Why, all hell would break loose. Cats would knock on dog house doors inquiring about moving in. Social media would melt down.
Yet when women default to treating not just men, but boys as well, as if they're guilty in the same way of the same things, why that's considered normal. Expected. Approved of.
It's truly a mystery how all these fringe elements, these grifters and conmen, these bad actors, are able to sweep up disaffected men. These men who are being told they're at fault and should be ashamed of their privilege. Wondering "where's all this privileged I'm supposed to be guilty of" while sitting in a lonely apartment they're struggling to make rent on.
The way forward is to stop tearing down "the other." That phrase fits here. A lot of women have turned men into "the other." Some have even invented a second, worse category of other for "white men." Being confused, or even angry, when the men so targeted disagree with your pronouncement, when they know they haven't done any of these misogynist crimes, is part of the issue.
Judge people as individuals. Judge actions, not gender or race. If your conclusion seems harsh or even problematic, if you replaced "man" or "white man" with "woman" or with some other race ... working on moderating that would be a way to "bring these men in the poll back to center." Any of the men in the poll who do act problematically, who do expose misogyny, they're actually doing something.
But disagreeing that someone is a problem is not a reason to then treat that someone as a problem. Not if that's the only "evidence" at hand. And if someone insists on judging people like that, being surprised when the judged object just makes you irrational as well as bigoted.
I am a white man. I want to be clear - I think people do not deserve hate for harm they did not take part in. Especially gen Z boys that have hardly ever had the opportunity to oppress anyone. I...
I am a white man. I want to be clear - I think people do not deserve hate for harm they did not take part in. Especially gen Z boys that have hardly ever had the opportunity to oppress anyone.
I think your comment frequently goes into irrational anxiety and anger.
The default position seems to be "oh, you're a white guy? Fuck you, shut up, be ashamed."
It's really easy to find videos and tweets of this opinion. I have never met someone who spoke this way or indicated they thought this way. In the "real world" this is a fringe opinion. People will view your actions through a filter - as I'm sure happens to all people - but the filter doesn't turn every action of yours into filth.
What would be the reaction if men started stomping around, screaming about women ... all hell would break loose. Cats would knock on dog house doors inquiring about moving in. Social media would melt down.
Some men do that. That's the status quo.
Yet when women default to treating not just men, but boys as well, as if they're guilty in the same way of the same things
In my experience women are cautious by default around men they're not familiar with (unless they are implicitly vouched for by friends). But they will quickly judge your character after getting to know you. They aren't treating men as through they're guilty of being evil, or causing all badness in the world. They'd have to be in a complete echo chamber of wack jobs to think that.
Sorry for starting to go a little tit-for-tat there on the comment. I just wanted to pull out a few examples. The world is often a harsh place and there are plenty of problems to fix - even problems that are specific to men. But you'll be better able to solve the problems for yourself, and maybe for others too, if you can keep a cool head.
Edit:
As for bars: Bars in America sadly stopped being a community/3rd place in urban areas (no idea about what's going on in other areas). I think going to a bar, in America, and chatting up women requires a good amount of genuine charisma and social talent that goes beyond what most men I know have. I do know a couple of guys that can easily slide right into a group of people, men or women, and make everyone laugh. But most guys will find bars a tough spot to meet friends - or significant others - because there's no obvious in to get to know people. You're very unlikely to walk in and see regulars, as a regular yourself, and find yourself immersed in a healthy social environment. You'll be walking into a dozen or more insular groups of friends that arrived together and will leave together.
And is it exponentially easier to watch 5 videos or meet 5 new people? This is ultimately how the (kids especially) get disillusioned and suckered in, even if it's a mostly-false bubble of vocal...
It's really easy to find videos and tweets of this opinion
And is it exponentially easier to watch 5 videos or meet 5 new people?
This is ultimately how the (kids especially) get disillusioned and suckered in, even if it's a mostly-false bubble of vocal minority.
Fair. I'm not sure if @DavesWorld was speaking from the heart or presenting us with the view these Gen Z boys are picking up. I think if you actually know even a few women you absolutely will not...
Fair. I'm not sure if @DavesWorld was speaking from the heart or presenting us with the view these Gen Z boys are picking up.
I think if you actually know even a few women you absolutely will not have this opinion. It's shocking that so many boys apparently don't have any female friends. In my experience women are much easier to befriend than men post college.
Speaking as a zoomer man, growing up, I had plenty of classmates and more than one teacher spouting those kinds of talking points, from misandrist generalizations to baseless assumptions of my and...
Speaking as a zoomer man, growing up, I had plenty of classmates and more than one teacher spouting those kinds of talking points, from misandrist generalizations to baseless assumptions of my and other boys' innocent behaviors. I had and have friendships with girls/women, but always framed as "one of the good ones" at best. I'm hardly following the manosphere, but I also have a hard time believing that the average guy younger than me will have an easy time finding a positive framing of feminism.
I’m sorry to hear that. I don’t remember ever hearing that from an adult I trusted growing up so it’s difficult that teachers are saying it. I must have heard some girls say these things back in...
I’m sorry to hear that. I don’t remember ever hearing that from an adult I trusted growing up so it’s difficult that teachers are saying it.
I must have heard some girls say these things back in school - but I also heard a lot of racist stuff from other students. So maybe none of it stood out as how girls/women think in general.
If your friends say something weird like “he’s one of the good ones” it wouldn’t be wrong to say how that makes you uncomfortable.
Yeah, I mean, I was raised in a feminist household, read bell hooks, knew about the ways that many men abused countless women well before it became acceptable to discuss publicly, and the...
Yeah, I mean, I was raised in a feminist household, read bell hooks, knew about the ways that many men abused countless women well before it became acceptable to discuss publicly, and the seethings of discourse are still deeply alienating to me, as someone fully invested in the project of feminism. My friends have mostly grown out of those sorts of messages, but they're still happy to sit back and nod along when one of their friends goes on explicitly hateful rants.
My point is just that these toxic rivulets of discourse have breached the mainstream (of US culture at least) in a way that people any older than ~27 seem to be blind to.
I think if this really is the status quo then the results of the poll aren't as depressing as I'd first thought. Granted, Gen Z still seems to be the the group most pulled into Tate's sphere of...
I think if this really is the status quo then the results of the poll aren't as depressing as I'd first thought. Granted, Gen Z still seems to be the the group most pulled into Tate's sphere of influence. But if young and old women are frequently telling young boys they should feel bad for existing it's more complicate than just "Gen Z fell off the feminism bandwagon".
This may be way too hot of a take - but perhaps this isn't unlike the situation with Israel? Undeniably Jewish people have been persecuted for centuries. But they've been used by the West to create a wedge in the middle east and now they're committing a genocide of their own against Palestinians. The oppressed don't necessarily have an excess of empathy once they get a chance to be the oppressor.
I don't think it's frequent, just common enough for the logic of "it's just a bunch of malcontents whining on the internet, go meet real women" to fall very flat. Women certainly are not The...
I don't think it's frequent, just common enough for the logic of "it's just a bunch of malcontents whining on the internet, go meet real women" to fall very flat.
Women certainly are not The Oppressor here, but there is enough success at equality in the childhood domain that to grow up with nearly every teacher being a woman (a feminist woman!), with television programming that's far-more feminist than historical art and most adult-targeted media, that once kids are old enough to comprehend sociological and political problems, the attitude of carefree venting in the women's spaces that these boys are directed to visit so they can "see how women actually feel" seems nonsensical to them at best, and traumatic at worst. Then lump together normal human immaturity with the fact that child sexual abuse has hardly disappeared, and you have girls dealing with real pain and expressing their sincere fears and opinions in the common space of school, when the behavior modeled online and by a nonzero number of real life role models tilts into full-blown hatred, and it can feel like a pressure cooker for everyone. Not to mention puberty's development of sexuality nigh-universally bringing teens to shame, and how the kinds of rhetoric like "all PIV sex is rape" incite feelings of dehumanization and invalidation in heterosexual pubescents of all gender identities who'd like to put their penis in a vagina, or vice versa. That kind of talk in combination with the general lack of similar respect given to the huge number of boys and men who experience sexual assault, it's all toxic en masse. And we expect all these people to just grow a moral backbone.
This isn't really an issue of either men feeling displaced by equality, nor of women turning their "newfound power" against men. It's much more a matter of not respecting the power of rhetoric and the danger of expecting children to handle Historical Injustices like adults, combined with normal sorts of ignorance and conservative/progressive tides.
When you're socially akward it multiplies 100x when you're around someone you find attractive. Especially when you're young and insecure. It's a lot easier for me now that I'm happily married and...
When you're socially akward it multiplies 100x when you're around someone you find attractive. Especially when you're young and insecure.
It's a lot easier for me now that I'm happily married and about a decade past the most intense hormones.
Though you're not wrong. One of my kid's friend's parents... I can chitchat with the mom all day, but getting more than a few sentances out of dad is a struggle.
I think it's a bold claim to say this is a fringe opinion in the "real world" because I've absolutely encountered it all over the place, and it's frankly more socially accepted than other forms of...
It's really easy to find videos and tweets of this opinion. I have never met someone who spoke this way or indicated they thought this way. In the "real world" this is a fringe opinion.
I think it's a bold claim to say this is a fringe opinion in the "real world" because I've absolutely encountered it all over the place, and it's frankly more socially accepted than other forms of built in bullying/hate. I would say it's died down (as elections rile this shit up) but I'm curious if we're going to see a resurgence of it.
My anecdotal lived experience doesn't prove anything, but I don't think yours does either.
I suppose we all do a great deal of filtering for the people we spend time with. Getting older, that’s one of the greatest sources of improvement in life so far. Having to spend time with a...
I suppose we all do a great deal of filtering for the people we spend time with. Getting older, that’s one of the greatest sources of improvement in life so far. Having to spend time with a thousand random people because you live in the some neighborhood was such a shitshow growing up.
I'm a woman who is too exhausted to educate you but I'm going to give you two things I think you really should consider. On your point about thinking it's unfair for women to pre-judge men:...
Exemplary
I'm a woman who is too exhausted to educate you but I'm going to give you two things I think you really should consider.
On your point about thinking it's unfair for women to pre-judge men: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/childsexualabuse/fastfact.html
One in FOUR.
I know it doesn't break down the abusers by gender but I'm sure you have an idea. Take some time and imagine the overwhelming consequences of a statistic like this on us, our minds, our survival instincts.
On bigotry:
Bigotry involves a power imbalance. If someone treats you unfairly based on things other than the content of your character, but they have no power over you, that sucks but it isn't bigotry. You might want to argue that women do have power over men, they can withhold dating and intimacy or something but like... Men can often withhold housing and wages.
There are a lot of unsubstantiated assertions here, but I think some things are interesting These aren't incompatible positions – you can be at some level oppressed and at another an oppressor. To...
There are a lot of unsubstantiated assertions here, but I think some things are interesting
These men who are being told they're at fault and should be ashamed of their privilege. Wondering "where's all this privileged I'm supposed to be guilty of" while sitting in a lonely apartment they're struggling to make rent on.
These aren't incompatible positions – you can be at some level oppressed and at another an oppressor. To quote W.E.B. Du Bois (prominent 20th century social scientist, emphasis mine)
while they [poor whites] received a low wage, were compensated in part by a sort of public and psychological wage. They were given public deference and titles of courtesy because they were white. They were admitted freely with all classes of white people to public functions, public parks, and the best schools. The police were drawn from their ranks, and the courts, dependent upon their votes, treated them with such leniency as to encourage lawlessness. Their vote selected public officials, and while this had small effect upon the economic situation, it had great effect upon their personal treatment and the deference shown them. White schoolhouses were the best in the community, and conspicuously placed, and they cost anywhere from twice to ten times as much per capita as the colored schools. The newspapers specialized on news that flattered the poor whites and almost utterly ignored the Negro except in crime and ridicule
White men are still treated with a kind of respect that other groups aren't – try asking for a complementary upgrade in a hotel as a white man or a non-white man and see what kind of response you get (hint: the white is much more likely to get it). The difference is even starker between a man and a woman asking.
The way forward is to stop tearing down "the other." That phrase fits here. A lot of women have turned men into "the other." Some have even invented a second, worse category of other for "white men." Being confused, or even angry, when the men so targeted disagree with your pronouncement, when they know they haven't done any of these misogynist crimes, is part of the issue.
This is because the issue is structural, and not just about a collection of "bad apples". I also think there's a kind of double standard here – when women criticise men there's an immediate condemnation or attempt to discredit them (look e.g. at MeToo for examples). However when men say sexist things (which a lot of men do invariably) there's very little condemnation thereof – for example the classic "locker room talk" (as Donald Trump explained his infamous remark about his claims about how he likes to molest women) or men in a bar, or men harrassing women; men making lewd remarks about women (this happens, go to any event); etc.
About the "not just bad apples"; if you look at some of the things women have to suffer which men (generally) don't – e.g. overlooked in favour of their male peers (even if they are better educated/qualified), not being taken seriously, constant threat of sexual violence (in a way men don't have to face) – I think it's also kind of understandable why women want to talk about the problem in general as opposed to just isolated incidents.
Society likes to bully people, and it sucks. I was told that bullying was bad and didn't like it when it happened to me so I spent a lot of time trying to understand it and make sure I didn't...
Society likes to bully people, and it sucks.
I was told that bullying was bad and didn't like it when it happened to me so I spent a lot of time trying to understand it and make sure I didn't encourage it.
It has been extremely disheartening to watch politics and society at large devolve into deciding that they really fucking like bullying, but don't want to feel bad about it, so they'll look for groups they can feel good about bullying rather than fixing the problems.
I found it really interesting how when I started posting on forums and what not, it was expected that I would behave, that you don't feed the trolls, and that out of line behavior would be warned, suspended, and eventually permabanned.
As larger social media sites started to grow, with the advent of myspace, facebook, twitter, reddit, etc, more and more moderation wasn't encouraged (and to some extent wasn't feasible) and instead you wound up with a bunch of people who were rewarded and praised for verbally ripping into people. Witch hunts are more in fashion now than they've probably ever been and that extends into ALL SORTS of bigotry, not just for those that get harassed by hard line feminists.
It is a very real problem because it happens at a very human level. At the end of the day if you can justify treating everyone like trash, even strangers, because they probably deserve it, things aren't going to get better.
I'm on tildes simply because it's one of the few places that seems to try to encourage that sense of decorum still, and it's vital because it can allow for discussion and exposure to other points of views rather than "what do you mean you have questions about X? How dare you.." nonsense that's become standard.
(With full awareness I may be in a reccomendation rabbithole) There is certainly a trend in media that I've noticed.... there's an awful lot of Hypermasculine men, and an awful lot of feminine...
(With full awareness I may be in a reccomendation rabbithole)
There is certainly a trend in media that I've noticed.... there's an awful lot of Hypermasculine men, and an awful lot of feminine men, but there isn't nearly as much of that middle ground inbetween where the person isn't also a bumbling idiot or an asshole.
For kids content, I've noticed that there's a dearth of that STEM content that I grew up and inspired me...because it's mostly centered around the girls. Not to say the new shows are bad... Emily's Wonder Lab and Ada Twist are pretty good.
Ditto in fluff content.. it seems more often then not the girl is the empowered go getter while the boy is the comic foil.
And this isn't really a complaint that will be taken seriously if I bring it up as a white man. I know I've dismissed a friend for bringing these things up (though they lost a lot of benefit of the doubt before that).
I feel like the pendulum swung a bit far, and we're in this akward space where erasing the progress would be absolutely awful, but not figuring out how to "soft land" back to a medium place is going to result in blowback a few decades from now (see also: The timeline between Roe to Dobbs).
It's hard to address women's issues in a group of men. It's doubly hard if the men are ambivalent or emotionally stunted. And it's tripply hard if the bigots got to them first.
As far as kids content goes, the old stuff didn't disappear, and it's usually pretty easy to find. I actually make it a point to watch a lot of kids content so I can decide if I think it will be...
As far as kids content goes, the old stuff didn't disappear, and it's usually pretty easy to find. I actually make it a point to watch a lot of kids content so I can decide if I think it will be good for my nieces and nephew when they're old enough. If you like, I can send you a list of recommendations?
I know this will be provocative but one possible interpretation is something along the lines of this quote from Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Emphasis mine I think that there's a pretty strong...
I know this will be provocative but one possible interpretation is something along the lines of this quote from Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Emphasis mine
But even when the contradiction is resolved authentically by a new situation established by the liberated laborers, the former oppressors do not feel liberated. On the contrary, they genuinely consider themselves to be oppressed. Conditioned by the experience of oppressing others, any situation other than their former seems to them like oppression. Formerly, they could eat, dress, wear shoes, be educated, travel, and hear Beethoven; while millions did not eat, had no clothes or shoes, neither studied nor traveled, much less listened to Beethoven. Any restriction on this way of life, in the name of the rights of the community, appears to the former oppressors as a profound violation of their individual rights—although they had no respect for the millions who suffered and died of hunger, pain, sorrow, and despair. For the oppressors, "human beings" refers only to themselves; other people are "things." For the oppressors, there exists only one right: their right to live in peace, over against the right, not always even recognized, but simply conceded, of the oppressed to survival. And they make this concession only because the existence of the oppressed is necessary to their own existence.
I think that there's a pretty strong argument that a lot of traditional masculinity (as performed by men) – that men should be "providers" or "protectors" etc – relies (to a considerable extent) on women being forced into a passive role, so that they can be 'provided' for or 'protected' by men. In fact the meltdown of a lot of men as women are emancipated kind of validates this – the model of male masculinity we have really struggles to exist without women being subjugated. As things like uncompensated care work (cleaning, cooking, etc) women have historically performed, which has enabled men to have full participation in the public sphere, start to die out it's kind of natural that we would expect a lot of old behaviours to die out and become obsolete as we move further towards gender equality.
I do think that "providing" and "protecting" can exist as masculine traits in a healthy way. But those traits can't be mutually exclusive to empowered women. Basically, being a provider (or...
I do think that "providing" and "protecting" can exist as masculine traits in a healthy way. But those traits can't be mutually exclusive to empowered women. Basically, being a provider (or protector) would just be a lens to view your life through. You might not be any more of a provider than the women around you.
I feel that I'm very much both a provider and protector, by nature, even though both my partner and I work and make similar amounts. I do not take my "roles" as any form of control though and...
I feel that I'm very much both a provider and protector, by nature, even though both my partner and I work and make similar amounts. I do not take my "roles" as any form of control though and ascribe to something more akin to Servant Leadership. Yes, I chose to take on hardships so that others won't have to and I do that not because they can't but because I don't want them to have to. I know it's my choice to take on the extra burden so they don't need to be indebted to me (however, a little gratitude won't kill, right?).
That said, I usually just refer to it as a martyrdom complex - easier to explain to people that it just gets me going to suffer in other people's place instead. Doesn't need to be toxic (I clean the gutters because women are weak) but it's just that I am aware that a job needs doing and isn't fun, so I'll just get it done to have it done.
Now, if I could just get people to realize I like to be left alone to do my miserable work instead of watching me or trying to talk to me that'd be great.
If they aren’t masculine traits, then what is? And if masculinity is solely associated with negative traits, is a masculine/feminine paradigm sustainable in the long-term?
If they aren’t masculine traits, then what is? And if masculinity is solely associated with negative traits, is a masculine/feminine paradigm sustainable in the long-term?
I'm not passing comment on whether or not they're masculine traits – I'm just saying there's a difference between "you should protect and provide for others" and "as a man you should protect and...
I'm not passing comment on whether or not they're masculine traits – I'm just saying there's a difference between "you should protect and provide for others" and "as a man you should protect and provide for others". Why is this more healthy or only healthy in the context of the latter and not the former?
All gender is performative. If you want to define your masculinity as "cleaning the gutters so my wife doesn't have to", that seems like an excellent performance to play.
All gender is performative. If you want to define your masculinity as "cleaning the gutters so my wife doesn't have to", that seems like an excellent performance to play.
Right but my point is why should we say "you're a man, go protect" (implying, at least somewhat, that the people we aren't telling to 'go protect' – i.e. women ) rather than "you're a human being,...
Right but my point is why should we say "you're a man, go protect" (implying, at least somewhat, that the people we aren't telling to 'go protect' – i.e. women ) rather than "you're a human being, go protect"?
They're both fine. The masculine one gives a path to confused young men into positively understanding their gender and role in society. Because we need positive ways of understanding our genders,...
They're both fine. The masculine one gives a path to confused young men into positively understanding their gender and role in society.
Because we need positive ways of understanding our genders, since we don't live in a genderless civilisation. If you want to make every historically masculine trait into a human trait, that's fine. But now toxic masculinity is the only type you have left. And men will be masculine because again, gender is performative and most people want to perform. I think we should allow for good performances.
Edit: I would suggest reading the comment below from @Canekicker over my own. It has sources and further reading. I think it's more valuable to this discussion than my anecdotal experience.
Can't recall who, but someone on Tildes recently pointed out that boys are kind of getting corralled toward grifters, Nazis, and right wing psychos because they're the only people giving young men a safe space to talk about their problems.
I tend to agree.
Just because the patriarchy has been dominant and oppressive for so long doesn't mean that boys don't also need guidance and warmth in navigating this new world.
The sins of the father are not a good reason to dismiss the struggles of the son, much like the sins of white ancestors aren't a good reason to dismiss the problems faced by working class whites.
I think the backlash against white males has occasionally stopped being a dialogue and instead turned into, "shut up and listen, it's not your turn."
I understand the impulse, I understand the reasoning, and I understand privilege. But it's not productive in my opinion. It's spiteful.
Third-wave feminism was notable for acknowledging that the patriarchy harms men. But I don't know if I would ever give third-wave credit for actually caring about the harmed men.
Boys need role models and they need to feel heard. More importantly, they need to feel cared about. I think this is true for white people too in the context of racial injustice.
Look, I'm a white male so it's possible I just have my blinders on. I'm very open to being corrected. But I consider myself to be a feminist and I think the best way to achieve these goals is going to be through warmth and understanding, even if it's hard to give that to men after what we (as a collective) have done to women (as a collective).
Women have a lot more freedom to complain about men without judgement than the inverse. Women have more freedom to share their struggles. Venting, discussing, growing, learning, being wrong, being young and dumb - these are vital for every single human being. Even the white son of a billionaire will have challenges they face. Nobody on the planet is free from struggle or distress.
Often, the only place many young men feel empowered to do this is in spaces that are shared by misogynists and actual Nazis. That's a huge problem and it's going to hurt everyone if we don't do something.
To add some context, I teach 8th grade and many of my students over the last few years have gotten into Andrew Tate. I have been very vocal about what a piece of shit he is whenever I hear his name. But it's obviously very concerning to me. I think getting angry with them and dismissing them is falling into Andrew Tate's trap. Every time a young man's struggles are dismissed, Andrew Tate and his ilk get another potential target.
It's more than just that though. It is routine for me to be the only woman on a call for work matters, especially when it's just the first rung of management. I have to make my voice heard on these calls otherwise the conversational football only gets passed around by the men. For these scenarios, so few of them mentally bookmark that the lone woman on the call should be given a moment to speak too. I don't want to assume this happens everywhere, but it sure happens a lot more than I am comfortable with. When the scenario is flipped, i.e. more women then men on a discussion, there is better equality in mic time and sharing ideas.
That view of men being dominantly in charge extends beyond just a workplace title. It's as simple as going to the doctor alone as a woman and being dismissed, but having my concerns taken more seriously when I have my husband advocate for me especially when it is a male doctor. Why was my voice not enough to be taken seriously? And that's why some of us blame the societal acceptions that patriarchy has established.
It is entirely possible for both your experience to be valid and for young boys to also feel alienated in our world. We should try to extend empathy and understanding to find common ground with other people, else we wind up turning them into enemies. You make a great point but I fear it's orthoganal to the point the original commenter made: by sticking to feminist guns and never compromising, the movement is driving young men into the arms of a very dangerous crowd.
I'm not saying we should ease up on feminist progress, your anecdotes are perfect examples of how we still have a long ways to go. But we're not doing society any favors by ignoring the issue that this post is about.
What’s your evidence that it’s feminism that it’s feminism “never compromising” that’s radicalizing young men?
As opposed to the rise in popularity in fascist movements in the broader culture, economic and political instability, isolation due to a pandemic, social media algorithms tuned to push radicalizing content because research shows that generates greater revenue, all of which there is supporting research for?
And yet it fell upon women to create the feminist organizations that would make meaningful progress for women's rights and equality. Women created the spaces for women to talk about women's issues. If men want those spaces of their own, they are responsible for creating them. However, when men do try to create "men's rights" spaces, typically they do end up going off the deep end into misogyny and conspiracy theories. Those Nazi "safe spaces" that some young men are drawn to are created by other men.
I think a lot of men would just like to stop being generalized in with the MRA and incel groups just for existing
I have a simple technique for you. When people discuss the subset of men that are MRAers, or incels, or rapists, or whatever characteristic they have an issue with, and if you’re not an MRAer, incels, rapist, etc., then assume they’re not talking about you.
Most people don’t even know what MRAers or incels are. How many people are labeling men as MRAers/incels “just for existing”?
I think the patriarchy probably predates capitalism by a fair bit lol. Feudal Europe was still pretty damn patriarchal.
As were ancient Greece and Rome although the tribal societies may have been significantly less so. See for example Boudicca.
An interesting side note, among primates we are equally related to Chimpanzees that are male dominant and Bonobos that very much are not.
Fair point.
I'll make two counterpoints right off the cuff. These are admittedly not well-considered positions so please don't eviscerate me if you don't agree. But the devil's advocate in me immediately snapped back with two things that I'm not even sure I necessarily agree with.
If you want men to care about women's problems, should you not also care about men's problems?
Is it possible that the only people with the courage to advocate for men in the current social climate are shameless misogynists and grifters? I personally know a lot of men who are feminists and I don't think any of us would feel comfortable starting any kind of men's advocate group or even a men's domestic violence shelter. I think the backlash and vitriol would be absolutely horrendous.
Genuinely just looking for some insight and I'm always open to learning. I hope I've not said anything offensive here.
Just popping in with unprompted 2 cents.
I think men can create those spaces and advocate for/raise up positive behaviors, even without being a CEO or President. I have a small team at work and we make it clear that problematic behavior isn't acceptable and supportive/encouraging behavior is required. We expect patience and respect from both the men and women on our team, and by and large we get it. We hold one on ones to check in individually, we listen when folks have complaints, we act when people breach our mutual understanding. The feedback is largely positive and retention is really high.
I think we all have a small sphere of influence - within our friend groups, at work, in our families - to create those spaces to be supportive and encouraging of men while guiding them way from problematic behavior. I don't even think it need to be a single gender space. Like others said, we need people to care.
To point 2, I don't think they are the only ones with the courage to advocate for men, I think advocating is maybe the wrong word. Women are gaining rights, and I think what is uncomfortable about that, that we often ignore, is that it means there is a loss for men. A loss of control. A loss of position. A loss of identity. And that's a good thing, because the control, position, and in many cases identity come at the cost of the women in the dynamic. There is a balancing. But I think that is why folks like Andrew Tate are popular, they are advocating for taking those "rights" back. That is why these folks are the only ones advocating for men, the folks who are doing the real work are doing the quiet work of having men feel heard, understood, and helping them to build a new identity. For other youtube celebrities I think Beau Miles does this in a really great way. It's out there, they just don't get the same bandwidth because it's not as satisfying a response to the feeling of loss.
Never heard of this guy, but hoo boy as a parent can I ever relate to that video. Thanks for the link!
My initial thoughts were on parallel (but not identical) lines. In a similar vein I don't disagree with Blakdragon, but for the sake of a dialog I want to share a couple thoughts as well.
What are the issues you want to talk about and who isn't giving you the space for it? In my experience, I feel least safe to be myself -- and least confident my masculinity won't be attacked -- in the company of the men that gravitate around these men's rights personages. I find it's like an extension of that high school mentality where your grit is constantly being tested, rather than letting you just... be.
I agree with you. I would never feel comfortable with these types of men.
But you and I aren't everybody. And we have to try to understand why the young men are gravitating toward Andrew Tate. This is the best explanation I've come up with. Is there something I'm missing?
I don't think young men are just waking up and deciding to check out Tate because of reasons. I think young men are often insecure about themselves and are being targeted by culture war grifters trying to increase their influence. Insecure women are also targeted (by a whole different industry) and it's obviously an effective tactic. Who knows how millenial men would have fared growing up in the algorithms of today? Probably not well.
There's also been a large cultural shift of what's OK and not OK in the last twenty years (just go watch any YA movie from the late 90s or early 2000s for an example). And I think that's great but it also means the calculus on what's cool or edgy or alternative etc. is also changing.
I can’t speak for every manosphere influencer that kids are following - I don’t even know who else there might be - but Andrew Tate in particular is really simple; he’s a living power fantasy. If you only see him on social media all you see is that he’s muscular and has features that society likes, and he uses those to get women, money, opportunities, and power.
To add to this, because he's a grifter, he can offer step-by-step instructions that feel actionable, or at least visualizable. It doesn't matter if they actually work, or if the outcome when they do work is a good one. Tate doesn't care. If we could offer advice that was that simple and understandable about being a good man, we'd have a much better fighting chance. But actually doing good things successfully can't be explained that easily. It's a lot more nuanced. Advice for how to talk to a girl that takes her comfort into account is going to by nature be a lot more complicated and difficult to communicate than advice that seeks to make her uncomfortable. I actually think this might be more important than the power. I think if an equally impressive progressive guy started a competing tiktok or YouTube channel or what have you, he'd struggle to compete, because simple advice just isn't as easy to give if you care about it being ethical and accurate.
I find the talk about role models to be a bit confusing whenever it comes up. Could you give an example of one that exists for women or girls that doesn't exist for boys and men? In every context I can think of boys have as many or more role models as girls, but as a woman maybe I'm missing something.
I do agree that boys should be given plenty of guidance and warmth, and that criticism levied at white men as a group in any context where young boys might see it (I.e. not venting to friends over a glass of wine) is not likely to be productive or appropriate. It's only the role model thing that confuses me.
The patriarchy values shitty men.
I'm not blaming feminism for that.
But as a young man who grew up without a father and no older brothers (all younger), I really had to figure out what being a man meant for myself. At various points in my life I thought different things and my views continue to evolve.
At one point, I thought my value was tied to my romantic success. I was a serial dater and was very proud of having girlfriends who were "out of my league" in terms of looks. This was high school and I knew nothing of feminism other than "girl power!" I wasn't a creep or a sexist piece of garbage, but I was not a feminist and this was just what I thought was normal.
At other points, I thought my manhood was tied to being physically tough. I'm not big so I settled for scrappy. I got suspended from school several times for fights.
At one point, I misunderstood feminism and thought my value was related to being sensitive. Interestingly, it was mostly women who didn't like this. Granted, it was young women because I was a young man. As an adult man I find it to be much more highly valued. Women have fawned over me for doing very basic things like giving a shit about my wife and child or washing the dishes. Yeah, the bar really is on the floor for being a good guy I guess.
I didn't have any male role models. Still don't have any that really stand out other than one (probably gay) teacher I had who was just a very kind and amazing person. He really was more like a social worker and counselor to me. Great guy.
Celebs? Movie characters? I don't know, even in media men are mostly valued for being men of action and strength. Keanu Reeves often gets mentioned. He seems pretty awesome but I don't know enough about him to truly endorse that.
As I mentioned elsewhere, for celebrities I go straight to men like Patrick Stewart, Mark Ruffalo and LeBron James, not for being strong but because of the work they do to help people who need it - abused women, people with no or little access to clean water, and children, respectively. In fiction I think of characters like Uncle Iroh from Avatar, who was powerful, but his greater strength was wisdom and kindness. Or Captain Picard, who could probably fight okay, but all of his memorable moments were feats of diplomacy or confidence in his crew or force of will. He's not even the only good role model on that show! Data was curious, introspective, empathetic even when that didn't make sense to the people around him, and constantly incorporating new ideas into his sense of self. That's a great role model! Geordie and Warf also had lots of good qualities but I've talked too much about this show already.
I'm sorry that no one stood out to you or spoke to you that way when you were young. That's a genuine issue and you deserved to have someone to look up to. I would also love to see men praised more for their non-combat prowess in the media that we make. But as far as role models not existing, I'm still not seeing it. I'm open to being corrected, really I am, but I feel like I'm missing something.
There’s been a distinct lack of shows centered around thoroughly competent yet human characters like TNG in the past couple of decades, which is unfortunate. As you say I think such shows provide great role models for younger people.
I also look up to Picard but didn't discover him until later in life :/ I also don't think he would appeal to most of my students.
Thanks for the feedback and food for thought!
Edit: I suppose I get it if not done on a conscious level. You look for similar beliefs and behavior and want to acquaint with like people but this conscious notion of masculinity or feminity I didn't give much thought. Although most of my behavior tended to align with typical male behavior so I suppose you can say I'm privileged to not have to think much about it. But if you're consciously trying to manipulate young people into doing your bidding, following your beliefs, I'd express caution. Sometimes they'll see the propaganda and turn the other way, I know I did against conservatism, in general.
As a white man, that's all very confusing to me. When I was growing up, I just was. Sure, there were some social circles I wanted to fit within and goals to accomplish but thinking 'I'm this sex therefore I need to act like this sex' was something I never gave much thought. Or I'm this kind of 'thing' so I need to consciously look for and to other similar 'things'. I don't get that, don't guess I ever will. Sure, I never made much friends but it wasn't something I cared for either, just finding 'truth', finding myself, was more priority.
I think it just comes from the perception of these figures promoting misogyny acting in a role model capacity and how that seems to really resonate with young men. Speaking as a young-ish (late 20's) guy myself, looking at other people's lives (whether historic, current, or even fictional) and trying to take lessons from them has been a common paradigm of my thinking ever since childhood. The fact that there's no prominent alternatives to your Andrew Tates of the world is disheartening and makes me a bit scared for the future.
Well, Andrew Tate is preying on them. I can't think of anyone who held themselves up as a role model - for any demographic - that wasn't doing it primarily for the purposes of grifting their audiences. Tony Robbins has been in the game for years.
The best role models have always been people who just do good things. And there are plenty of those! There's famous people like Mark Ruffalo, who works with Water Defense and other charities in his free time, Patrick Stewart, who works to help abused women, or LeBron James, who works with various children's causes.
If you're looking for examples of people that are more "online", that gets a little tricky for me personally because a lot of what I enjoy wouldn't be appropriate for boys younger than 10 or 11, but even then I can think of a few examples. The McElroy brothers are creative, empathetic and funny, and each of them has different strengths and weaknesses that boys could learn from. FD Signifier is a YouTuber who talks about race and gender, but also sometimes music or sports. He's thoughtful, intelligent, empathetic and he frequently talks about his own experiences and offers (far less grifty) advise.
And maybe none of that is what people are looking for when this topic comes up. I don't know. That's kind of what I'm having a hard time with. Do you want a grifter with good morals? Or something else entirely?
I will never forget a couple of years ago on reddit running into a young person who was super into Mr. Beast and his charitable acts. That guy (I think) wanted to know what us old so and sos thought about Mr. Beast and most of us had to say 'Never heard of him'.
Semi related, my mother made sure I read Little Women. One scene from that book, Laurie, the guy friend across the road, was asked what his heroes were. He knew immediately and answered Napoleon. I wonder if there was more done in education in that century to get young men to identify heroes to admire. I wonder if there is more our education system could do.
I still don't understand how Andrew Tate has gotten so popular for young kids.
Like, I would understand if this was an issue for late teens believing they are gonna be rich and muscled and all that typical stuff.
But that's not really the case, Andrew Tate has a lot of followers with age 10-12. That's insane, and I don't understand how anything he says is even relatable to them. Wasn't he even arrested? He's very obviously a scam!
So I've been curious about this for the last few years and found these recent pieces helped quite a bit when it comes to understanding this current trend
Ezra Klein Show episode with Richard Reeves who wrote Of Boys and Men and a New Yorker piece that also heavily features Reeves.
A really good opinion piece in the Washington Post by Christine Emba
A piece in Elle by Nicole Young about her experience with the black manosphere
NYT podcast series by Kevin Roose called Rabbit Hole about online radicalization
I really love all these pieces and as an elder millennial, it really helped me understand what younger men are experiencing and what they're exposed to. On some level I'm quite sympathetic to it because I don't think I could have avoided falling into the same trappings if I were gen-z, but on the other, I'm like god damn, how do y'all not see how fucked up this is.
One solution you'll hear is that young men need more forms of positive masculinity. While I completely agree ,after all you can never have too many positive influences, I do believe the counter point that there are quite a few examples of positive masculinity out there. Additionally, what positive masculinity fails to offer these boys is the sense or feeling that they are personally "winning". I think what's scary to me is I'm unsure how to reverse the tide and feel that gen-z boys will be a lost generation
edit : grammar and typos. also thanks to @wolf_359 for repping this comment. Here's hoping that the line for this type of thinking is drawn here, this far, no further.
I think this is often where I get most lost in discussions on male/female imbalances and issues with altright manosphere brainwashing. It's often presented as a binary choice - we must embrace this shill kind of masculinity more and work on programs to help men or we will end up with an alienated sex. While I agree wholeheartedly that we need more programs to help men, the message that the manosphere is the only place that affirms that masculinity or does so in a special way feels mislead to me. There seems to be a conscious ignoring of all the positive male role models which are not toxic. They sometimes even point to figures like Mr. Rogers as an example of positive male role modeling but ignore modern counterparts because they are either too feminine or not what they're talking about. There's a simultaneous desire for positive masculinity with a partial or complete erasure of anything that has any aspects of femininity (often paradoxical in that they may point to someone like Mr. Rogers as being a positive role model but call another, even more masculine model too feminine because the rosy lens through which they reflect upon nostalgia).
I find, often, that the biggest point of conflict online when men talk about the issues they are rightfully seeing with society as it currently exists and reflect upon where they are being left out or lagging behind their female peers, is one of fragility. If you've ever been in minority spaces, such as black liberation, or other strong progressive movements, you'll find that a similar dynamic plays out between the words being put forth by revolutionaries and the general populace. White folks are often too fragile to participate in these discussions without feeling alienated by the very people they in many cases support and wish to help out, and some of them find themselves pushed out of these conversations because they find them too emotionally polarizing. The popular message often is a watered down version of the progressive one for this reason - palatability decreases as you challenge people's assumptions and thoughts about the world, and many people do not have the emotional bandwidth to sit with some of the true but horrifying messages that reflection upon inequality has brought us. On this point I think the authors of these think pieces have a really good message to share - the palatability of what men have been presented with over the last twenty years may very well be quite low and that these men are turning towards more palatable messages even if it includes indoctrination into a socially harmful mindset.
I think the one part I perhaps diverge from the authors of these pieces is that I think this is almost assuredly a reflection of social design. The authors do point out that men are falling behind in school and thus need help, but they don't talk about how schools have changed over the years to punish aggression and typical male outbursts and negatively viewed behavior. They don't talk about how schools are designed in a matter which involve teaching and interventions which tend to favor women over men. They don't talk about how men are often thrust into working at earlier ages than women to help provide, drawing on social narratives such as "men must provide for the family" which discourages them from attending college. They only briefly mention the decline of trades, while failing to mention that in many trades the way you learn is hands on (which men respond to at slightly better rates than women) and through a mentor (despite decrying the lack of male mentors and male educators throughout early life). There is no mention on how there's a male mental health crisis in which outbursts often result in harsher social penalties (more likely to be written up for being angry at a coworker than bursting into tears, more likely to be thrown into prison or shot/killed for the perception of being aggressive/threatening when having a mental breakdown) and how there's a distinct lack of resources being thrown at alternative modalities for improving male mental health. They may point to the decline of male socialization in public spaces but often ignore the disappearance of third spaces and ignore how men often have smaller social groups than women and the importance of male bonding at work and after hours work bonding.
Perhaps most glaringly, I see a lack of discussion around some extremely positive changes in male friendship which provide a social support which is frankly rather new for young men (older men are more allowed to discuss feelings, especially as they enter fatherhood) and desperately needs to be tapped into. What used to be considered gay or effeminate, such as sharing feelings about being frustrated with dating, being able to cry or express emotions which are not anger, and the ability to enjoy not typically masculine activities such as gardening is perhaps socially at an all time high acceptability amongst Gen Z, and this extremely pivotal kind of emotional support is a desperate kind of mental health need in the male space. I see vanishingly little offering support to boys and men on how to offer this kind of support in a healthy manner to other men, or resources to help men who find themselves getting burnt out or lost in the space. The larger your social circle the more you can rely upon others to support you when you're in need, and men are only just starting to form these kinds of deeply emotional bonds with their bros on a level approaching women - they often don't have circles large enough to support their needs that emerge from helping others and it's easy to get burnt out, especially when you're taught to be self-sufficient and independent as a man and reaching out for help can be seen as feminine. I can see how this rapid change in social dynamics and social burnout could easily lead to emotional exhaustion making one more susceptible to messages like the one Jordan Peterson espouses.
Anyhow, I wanted to thank you for these links and this reading. It's useful to get the perspective of other folks on this matter and where they focus their thoughts on the emerging problem as well as the solutions they see which are all helpful in their own ways.
I'll second the recommendation for the Ezra Klein podcast. I listened to it when it first came out, and as a father with boys, it struck close to home. The podcast does a good job laying out the lack of institutions that track male specific issues, such as where men disproportionately experience fatalities, or that they are falling in college enrollments.
(If the podcast requires a gift link let me know and I'll post one.)
The podcast also discusses the absence of positive role models who make themselves available to directly answer the question of what it means to be a man and how to do it in today's world. When you don't have good male role models putting themselves out there, you leave a void for the Andrew Tate's of the world to fill.
You mention that there are plenty of positive male role models, but I don't know that I agree fully. There are plenty of good men who are visible. Men have good representation in media, politics, life in general. But how many of them are offering real guidance on the issues younger men face? Or the how and why of being a good man? Being a good role model requires speaking out about these things, and I don't see very much of that. Mostly I see good men say what not to do by condemning deplorable behavior. Which is important, but not real guidance. You need to give ideas of what to do, and not simply call out the bad. One of the last real role models that spoke to boys that I recall was Mr. Rogers. He took the time to explain to children, girls and boys, about their feelings, and how to be caring, and what to expect in how others treat you.
Where is Gen Z's Mr. Rogers?
I think there are a host of social challenges to overcome in order to get positive male role models out there, and to help them be engaging to young men. So much of what I've seen attempted is really just moralizing to boys about what not to do, or through the lens of other social issues. Of course young men tune that out. The message doesn't recognize them for who they are; it quantifies how they should behave based on how it will be received by others. Understanding your impact on others is important, but we also need to have healthy self-care messaging.
I'm reminded of my experiences as a manager and Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Most people in the workplace are so stuck on recognition, the penultimate level of actualization, that they can't truly self improve. As a manager, by consistently recognizing the good work of people, their intent, their efforts, they can feel recognized and move past it to start investing energy into real self improvement instead of chasing what they think will get them a feeling of recognition.
Until we can really generationally recognize boys and young men and make them feel recognized on their own merits, they will never consistently improve and grow as people. And you're right; if we fail to make them feel recognized, it will be a lost generation of men.
On a whole, I don't really disagree with you but I do have a contention with the idea of a "Gen-z Mr. Rogers". My general feeling is that the culture has splintered and is so far from the ostensible monoculture we had during Mr. Roger's time that there simply isn't anyone who can speak to an entire generation the same way as Mr. Rogers. It's why I included "Rabbit Hole" as it really talks about how quickly the algorithm guides someone from something relatively innocuous towards something far more pernicious. At the same time, those subgroups do have positive masculinity figures in them, they just aren't as loud and boisterous as the Andrew Tates of the world.
Then again, my honest hope is that young men and boys see some of their issues as not male specific (I honestly don't believe they all are) but something more universal to the human experience. Like I'm literally listening to this song by Sydney Sprauge while writing this and so much of this is connects at a human level. To me, recognizing our common human condition can inoculate us from the worst lies that conmen and assholes like Tate are trying to sell us. It feels starting from a "common human condition" is a great context to tackle the issues of what it means to be a young man in modern society.
I don't disagree with the fact that the world and technology has changed, and it isn't as feasible for single figures to have their message universally consumed, although Taylor Swift sure is doing her best (go T-Dawg!)
But that is part of the problem. You say that there are plenty of good male role models in the myriad splintered ecosystems, and maybe that is true, maybe it isn't, but they are clearly harder to find.
I googled looking for good male role models. A top result was this reddit thread of someone asking for good male role models on YouTube which is exactly the platform your podcast discusses.
There are what, 11 answers posted? And of those some are listing people like Markiplier, the primitive technology channel guy, and Mr. Beast. Generously speaking, some of these people are exactly what I was talking about; good men who are visible but not actively filling a role model role for young men. That isn't the main thrust of their channel, at all. The primitive technology guy doesn't even really talk! The top answer is a comedian, and it isn't until further down you even see someone who talks about life generally (Nathaniel Drew). The only answer I saw, over halfway down, that is in my opinion someone who is actually modeling themselves well, is Rob Kenney the dad how do I guy.
So if there are plenty of men out there with a platform, giving real advice to boys and young men about what it means to be a happy, healthy man in today's society, I can't find them, and neither could those other people.
I also don't agree that the "common human condition" is a good messaging platform to the exclusion of more specific messages. By that argument, we don't need women specific role models and messages (we definitely do need them), or black role models and messages (we do), or queer role models (yep, again, important to have).
So why is it that every group but boys and young men need specific role models and messaging? Because they boys need them too. Because people look to figures that they see themselves reflected in as potential role models. And to speak authentically about how to live a certain way requires that you've either done so, or have exhaustively studied it and are a singularly good communicator and perspective taker. I know this as a scout leader, and a father of boys and a girl, as a former court appointed child advocate, and as someone who has spent most of their career supporting inclusivity in higher ed. We need role models for every group, and we need every person to feel seen and valued while we also talk about how to make space for everyone and those other common human condition conversations you mention.
In the Ezra Klein podcast we both endorse, they talk about how the ratio of men and women in college has inverted from the time that title IX was introduced. We know something isn't going well for young men. Seriously, it's all in the podcast and the book. From depression, to life outlook, jobs, higher fatality rates, college, and radicalization. Young men and boys are disproportionately being harmed by something, and I don't think it is crazy that we might need some specific guidance and messaging for them.
As much as I agree with finding common humanity, that doesn't help young men answer practical questions around their social development, doesn't help them find their place in society, and doesn't help them feel seen. It's something that I think should be incorporated into conversations for everyone, but not as a replacement for more specific messaging.
The customer is always right in manners of taste, and young people need role models and messages that they see themselves in and who make them feel seen. I don't think telling young men to feminism harder makes struggling young men feel seen or heard.
To be clear, my point about common humanity isn't that it's a cure for this current trend of asshole influencers but that it's a baseline understanding in which young boys could start their exploration of masculinity in a healthy way. To me , it's harder to buy into the belief that rape victims are at fault or it's reasonable to beat women who make accusations of cheating , both things Tate has stated, if you have that level of empathy. It isn't a counter to this horrid mindset but maybe can help it from taking hold.
Point taken about finding someone to model their behavior. I initially had a comment about men I admire in niche,male dominated spaces but none of them are directly speaking to boys about how to behave and instead fall into that category of visible good men you discussed.
I do feel part of that is due to the fact that being secure about your masculinity means not shouting at people about how secure you are and telling them how to live. But I think back to my own understanding of masculinity and how I didn't have a
role modelguide teaching me it but instead had to learn, experience, and reflect which took years. Like you're saying boys these days aren't afforded that time and need a better more direct solution now.edit : had good men around me, just no one overtly teaching "here's how to be a good man"
I definitely agree that empathy provides strong protection against hateful influences. I also think that developing perspective taking helps developing empathy. I always like to encourage kids to read stories. Reading, and reading novels in particular has been described as a perspective taking technology, and I rather like that description. Anything to foster an interest in looking through others eyes.
I do think that something has changed. Whether that is social media, or parents having less time to be a role model, or a decline in social groups that provided guidance, or a combination of all of it, I'm not prepared to stake a position. But it seems like young people across the board are given less time to figure themselves out before adopting beliefs or mindsets that are increasingly calcified, self reinforcing, and difficult to break out of.
To your point, I think it is difficult for stable, healthy, well adjusted men to try and build a platform. While I've spent significant time volunteering at the local level, it feels... attention seeking to try and tell people on YouTube to watch my videos on how to live their life. Artificial, inorganic, and lacking the personal back and forth. How can I give someone advice if I haven't asked them how they are doing? That's not my skillset. And yeah, I'm happily busy with my kids, and family, work, projects, and plans. And I think other men likely feel similarly.
Anyway, thanks for the reply! Have a great day!
Nah, thank you for talking through this. You're having to navigate this reality in very real way that for me, a DINK, is only an abstraction and a concern as someone who was formerly a boy. Here's hoping more take notice.
This is one reason why I think it’s a bad idea to look to media for examples of role models. The important ones are the ones who are local, and who will be leading by example. One of the worst thing we have done to kids over the years is segregating them from society and leaving them to get their social interaction over the internet.
I don't think that comedians necessarily make bad role models. Comedians make a living from making people laugh, and to do that they have to build empathy and understanding. Just look at “Nanette” for an example. They are arguably the best people for spreading messages of this type.
I don't disagree. What I would add to clarify my point is that my subjective view of role models includes someone who is putting themselves out there to take questions and respond on some fashion. If a comedian told people to hit them up on social media, and responded to some or incorporated what they heard into their routines, then that could be a great example of a role model.
Being a role model involves making yourself vulnerable, letting people ask you questions, and explaining how you came to an answer based on your own lived experience.
I mentioned in another comment that I was a scout leader, college student life advisor, and volunteer child advocate. The one thing in common with all of my work with young people is that I took their questions, and answered using my own lived examples, and how I overcame and grappled with issues.
I don't think Mr. Rogers was a great role model just because of how he acted, but because he invited questions to the extent the technology would allow, focused on topics his viewers had questions on, and used himself as an example.
If we think of Mr. Rogers as an ideal male role model, then I think it becomes necessary to understand the concept of toxic masculinity and how it has defined the situation men are in today. After all, Mr. Rogers was and is still not considered to be anything near to an icon of masculinity.
Many men (and boys) today think of masculinity as a thing that is central to their identity. Masculinity is not a physical trait though; it’s essentially whatever we decide it to be, and those decisions are quietly determined culturally rather than decided on an individual level with by applying reasoning. And the problem with this is that for many people and places the idea has been poisoned. It can mean violent, dominant, controlling, unfeeling, emotionally closed, and things like that. Proponents might say that these ideas are perversions of the positive traits, like emotional stability, stoicism, strength, and leadership. The problem with that is that those are very complex things that have to be taught in depth and learned over time, whereas masculinity is something impressed upon boys at a very young age before they can grasp what those mean with any depth. So they often learn the perverted negative traits and it takes a long time for them to master the positive ones - if they ever do, that is.
Personally speaking, I think the worst thing about masculinity is the expectation that males have to perform those roles. I’m an existentialist; I don’t think this is healthy and I would much rather have our young men learning how to be authentic and not have to deal with the pain of performing an artificial role for the sake of others. I was fairly lucky in one aspect in my youth; when I came out as gay I didn’t have many negative reactions to it, so in the time afterwords I was able to interact with people authentically, without all of the masks I would have hid myself behind, and as a result my social life had improved by several orders of magnitude and my friends had exploded in numbers. I want this to be a thing that happens for the current generations of men, and I wish it were something that future generations would not have to deal with.
Role models are the examples where I see the biggest problems with masculinity. When I think of masculine role models I do not think of figures like Mr. Rogers or Captain Picard like others have mentioned. I think of movie stars like Vin Diesel or Jason Mamoa or any other major action star. And the one shining thing that brings them together is violence, plain and simple. This is the thing we are pushing on boys to become; even if we are doing a better job of teaching them to not fight, there’s clearly an idea that they need to project the idea that they would win in a fight. And that’s a fucking insane thing to expect of a young boy.
Men in general over the past twenty years are constantly accused of basically being the source of much evil in the world. At least by certain vocal segment, particularly online. Especially white men. The default position seems to be "oh, you're a white guy? Fuck you, shut up, be ashamed."
That's bad enough. To just throw that charge and thought, attitude, conclusion, around in general. Absent proof to justify it. To just default to assuming "white male, must be an evil racist sexist asshole" and then treat someone according to that pronouncement.
What about young guys? Even if we're to believe "the patriarchy" is solely responsible for all this stuff in the world, all of it evil and wrong and horrible ... how can that be the fault of males under 20? Or really even males into their 20s? How is it possible all these young men and boys are at fault for things they haven't participated in?
Yet, again, there's this persistent attitude that's dismissive and accusatory toward men. Made worse by how many people aren't rich, aren't "privileged."
How do you think a young man, who can't find a well paying job, who's being accused of being creepy and gross when he takes what money he has and heads out to a bar or club or where ever to try and date, reacts to that accusation? He's struggling, he's unhappy, and he's alone ... but he's apparently evil, and has done all this stuff that's his fault.
That's what this poll is picking up. Frustration and being convicted in absentia, and held in societal purgatory as punishment.
Bigotry is when you treat people unfairly, when you purposefully shape your actions and attitude toward them on arbitrary factors like gender or race. Rather than shaping your views and decisions based on their actions.
If someone's an asshole, meaning they're actually doing asshole things, then treat them like an asshole. But if they're not acting poorly, badly, problematically, treating them as if they are is not going to encourage them to care much (if at all) about your attitude, your position, your views.
What would be the reaction if men started stomping around, screaming about women, the way some women will just so casually accuse men of all this horrible stuff. Accusing women of being exclusionary and prejudiced? Why, all hell would break loose. Cats would knock on dog house doors inquiring about moving in. Social media would melt down.
Yet when women default to treating not just men, but boys as well, as if they're guilty in the same way of the same things, why that's considered normal. Expected. Approved of.
It's truly a mystery how all these fringe elements, these grifters and conmen, these bad actors, are able to sweep up disaffected men. These men who are being told they're at fault and should be ashamed of their privilege. Wondering "where's all this privileged I'm supposed to be guilty of" while sitting in a lonely apartment they're struggling to make rent on.
The way forward is to stop tearing down "the other." That phrase fits here. A lot of women have turned men into "the other." Some have even invented a second, worse category of other for "white men." Being confused, or even angry, when the men so targeted disagree with your pronouncement, when they know they haven't done any of these misogynist crimes, is part of the issue.
Judge people as individuals. Judge actions, not gender or race. If your conclusion seems harsh or even problematic, if you replaced "man" or "white man" with "woman" or with some other race ... working on moderating that would be a way to "bring these men in the poll back to center." Any of the men in the poll who do act problematically, who do expose misogyny, they're actually doing something.
But disagreeing that someone is a problem is not a reason to then treat that someone as a problem. Not if that's the only "evidence" at hand. And if someone insists on judging people like that, being surprised when the judged object just makes you irrational as well as bigoted.
I am a white man. I want to be clear - I think people do not deserve hate for harm they did not take part in. Especially gen Z boys that have hardly ever had the opportunity to oppress anyone.
I think your comment frequently goes into irrational anxiety and anger.
It's really easy to find videos and tweets of this opinion. I have never met someone who spoke this way or indicated they thought this way. In the "real world" this is a fringe opinion. People will view your actions through a filter - as I'm sure happens to all people - but the filter doesn't turn every action of yours into filth.
Some men do that. That's the status quo.
In my experience women are cautious by default around men they're not familiar with (unless they are implicitly vouched for by friends). But they will quickly judge your character after getting to know you. They aren't treating men as through they're guilty of being evil, or causing all badness in the world. They'd have to be in a complete echo chamber of wack jobs to think that.
Sorry for starting to go a little tit-for-tat there on the comment. I just wanted to pull out a few examples. The world is often a harsh place and there are plenty of problems to fix - even problems that are specific to men. But you'll be better able to solve the problems for yourself, and maybe for others too, if you can keep a cool head.
Edit:
As for bars: Bars in America sadly stopped being a community/3rd place in urban areas (no idea about what's going on in other areas). I think going to a bar, in America, and chatting up women requires a good amount of genuine charisma and social talent that goes beyond what most men I know have. I do know a couple of guys that can easily slide right into a group of people, men or women, and make everyone laugh. But most guys will find bars a tough spot to meet friends - or significant others - because there's no obvious in to get to know people. You're very unlikely to walk in and see regulars, as a regular yourself, and find yourself immersed in a healthy social environment. You'll be walking into a dozen or more insular groups of friends that arrived together and will leave together.
And is it exponentially easier to watch 5 videos or meet 5 new people?
This is ultimately how the (kids especially) get disillusioned and suckered in, even if it's a mostly-false bubble of vocal minority.
Fair. I'm not sure if @DavesWorld was speaking from the heart or presenting us with the view these Gen Z boys are picking up.
I think if you actually know even a few women you absolutely will not have this opinion. It's shocking that so many boys apparently don't have any female friends. In my experience women are much easier to befriend than men post college.
Speaking as a zoomer man, growing up, I had plenty of classmates and more than one teacher spouting those kinds of talking points, from misandrist generalizations to baseless assumptions of my and other boys' innocent behaviors. I had and have friendships with girls/women, but always framed as "one of the good ones" at best. I'm hardly following the manosphere, but I also have a hard time believing that the average guy younger than me will have an easy time finding a positive framing of feminism.
I’m sorry to hear that. I don’t remember ever hearing that from an adult I trusted growing up so it’s difficult that teachers are saying it.
I must have heard some girls say these things back in school - but I also heard a lot of racist stuff from other students. So maybe none of it stood out as how girls/women think in general.
If your friends say something weird like “he’s one of the good ones” it wouldn’t be wrong to say how that makes you uncomfortable.
Yeah, I mean, I was raised in a feminist household, read bell hooks, knew about the ways that many men abused countless women well before it became acceptable to discuss publicly, and the seethings of discourse are still deeply alienating to me, as someone fully invested in the project of feminism. My friends have mostly grown out of those sorts of messages, but they're still happy to sit back and nod along when one of their friends goes on explicitly hateful rants.
My point is just that these toxic rivulets of discourse have breached the mainstream (of US culture at least) in a way that people any older than ~27 seem to be blind to.
I think if this really is the status quo then the results of the poll aren't as depressing as I'd first thought. Granted, Gen Z still seems to be the the group most pulled into Tate's sphere of influence. But if young and old women are frequently telling young boys they should feel bad for existing it's more complicate than just "Gen Z fell off the feminism bandwagon".
This may be way too hot of a take - but perhaps this isn't unlike the situation with Israel? Undeniably Jewish people have been persecuted for centuries. But they've been used by the West to create a wedge in the middle east and now they're committing a genocide of their own against Palestinians. The oppressed don't necessarily have an excess of empathy once they get a chance to be the oppressor.
I don't think it's frequent, just common enough for the logic of "it's just a bunch of malcontents whining on the internet, go meet real women" to fall very flat.
Women certainly are not The Oppressor here, but there is enough success at equality in the childhood domain that to grow up with nearly every teacher being a woman (a feminist woman!), with television programming that's far-more feminist than historical art and most adult-targeted media, that once kids are old enough to comprehend sociological and political problems, the attitude of carefree venting in the women's spaces that these boys are directed to visit so they can "see how women actually feel" seems nonsensical to them at best, and traumatic at worst. Then lump together normal human immaturity with the fact that child sexual abuse has hardly disappeared, and you have girls dealing with real pain and expressing their sincere fears and opinions in the common space of school, when the behavior modeled online and by a nonzero number of real life role models tilts into full-blown hatred, and it can feel like a pressure cooker for everyone. Not to mention puberty's development of sexuality nigh-universally bringing teens to shame, and how the kinds of rhetoric like "all PIV sex is rape" incite feelings of dehumanization and invalidation in heterosexual pubescents of all gender identities who'd like to put their penis in a vagina, or vice versa. That kind of talk in combination with the general lack of similar respect given to the huge number of boys and men who experience sexual assault, it's all toxic en masse. And we expect all these people to just grow a moral backbone.
This isn't really an issue of either men feeling displaced by equality, nor of women turning their "newfound power" against men. It's much more a matter of not respecting the power of rhetoric and the danger of expecting children to handle Historical Injustices like adults, combined with normal sorts of ignorance and conservative/progressive tides.
Well you got me figured out. I'm 28
When you're socially akward it multiplies 100x when you're around someone you find attractive. Especially when you're young and insecure.
It's a lot easier for me now that I'm happily married and about a decade past the most intense hormones.
Though you're not wrong. One of my kid's friend's parents... I can chitchat with the mom all day, but getting more than a few sentances out of dad is a struggle.
I think it's a bold claim to say this is a fringe opinion in the "real world" because I've absolutely encountered it all over the place, and it's frankly more socially accepted than other forms of built in bullying/hate. I would say it's died down (as elections rile this shit up) but I'm curious if we're going to see a resurgence of it.
My anecdotal lived experience doesn't prove anything, but I don't think yours does either.
I suppose we all do a great deal of filtering for the people we spend time with. Getting older, that’s one of the greatest sources of improvement in life so far. Having to spend time with a thousand random people because you live in the some neighborhood was such a shitshow growing up.
I'm a woman who is too exhausted to educate you but I'm going to give you two things I think you really should consider.
On your point about thinking it's unfair for women to pre-judge men:
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/childsexualabuse/fastfact.html
One in FOUR.
I know it doesn't break down the abusers by gender but I'm sure you have an idea. Take some time and imagine the overwhelming consequences of a statistic like this on us, our minds, our survival instincts.
On bigotry:
Bigotry involves a power imbalance. If someone treats you unfairly based on things other than the content of your character, but they have no power over you, that sucks but it isn't bigotry. You might want to argue that women do have power over men, they can withhold dating and intimacy or something but like... Men can often withhold housing and wages.
Or physical safety.
There are a lot of unsubstantiated assertions here, but I think some things are interesting
These aren't incompatible positions – you can be at some level oppressed and at another an oppressor. To quote W.E.B. Du Bois (prominent 20th century social scientist, emphasis mine)
White men are still treated with a kind of respect that other groups aren't – try asking for a complementary upgrade in a hotel as a white man or a non-white man and see what kind of response you get (hint: the white is much more likely to get it). The difference is even starker between a man and a woman asking.
This is because the issue is structural, and not just about a collection of "bad apples". I also think there's a kind of double standard here – when women criticise men there's an immediate condemnation or attempt to discredit them (look e.g. at MeToo for examples). However when men say sexist things (which a lot of men do invariably) there's very little condemnation thereof – for example the classic "locker room talk" (as Donald Trump explained his infamous remark about his claims about how he likes to molest women) or men in a bar, or men harrassing women; men making lewd remarks about women (this happens, go to any event); etc.
About the "not just bad apples"; if you look at some of the things women have to suffer which men (generally) don't – e.g. overlooked in favour of their male peers (even if they are better educated/qualified), not being taken seriously, constant threat of sexual violence (in a way men don't have to face) – I think it's also kind of understandable why women want to talk about the problem in general as opposed to just isolated incidents.
Society likes to bully people, and it sucks.
I was told that bullying was bad and didn't like it when it happened to me so I spent a lot of time trying to understand it and make sure I didn't encourage it.
It has been extremely disheartening to watch politics and society at large devolve into deciding that they really fucking like bullying, but don't want to feel bad about it, so they'll look for groups they can feel good about bullying rather than fixing the problems.
I found it really interesting how when I started posting on forums and what not, it was expected that I would behave, that you don't feed the trolls, and that out of line behavior would be warned, suspended, and eventually permabanned.
As larger social media sites started to grow, with the advent of myspace, facebook, twitter, reddit, etc, more and more moderation wasn't encouraged (and to some extent wasn't feasible) and instead you wound up with a bunch of people who were rewarded and praised for verbally ripping into people. Witch hunts are more in fashion now than they've probably ever been and that extends into ALL SORTS of bigotry, not just for those that get harassed by hard line feminists.
It is a very real problem because it happens at a very human level. At the end of the day if you can justify treating everyone like trash, even strangers, because they probably deserve it, things aren't going to get better.
I'm on tildes simply because it's one of the few places that seems to try to encourage that sense of decorum still, and it's vital because it can allow for discussion and exposure to other points of views rather than "what do you mean you have questions about X? How dare you.." nonsense that's become standard.
(With full awareness I may be in a reccomendation rabbithole)
There is certainly a trend in media that I've noticed.... there's an awful lot of Hypermasculine men, and an awful lot of feminine men, but there isn't nearly as much of that middle ground inbetween where the person isn't also a bumbling idiot or an asshole.
For kids content, I've noticed that there's a dearth of that STEM content that I grew up and inspired me...because it's mostly centered around the girls. Not to say the new shows are bad... Emily's Wonder Lab and Ada Twist are pretty good.
Ditto in fluff content.. it seems more often then not the girl is the empowered go getter while the boy is the comic foil.
And this isn't really a complaint that will be taken seriously if I bring it up as a white man. I know I've dismissed a friend for bringing these things up (though they lost a lot of benefit of the doubt before that).
I feel like the pendulum swung a bit far, and we're in this akward space where erasing the progress would be absolutely awful, but not figuring out how to "soft land" back to a medium place is going to result in blowback a few decades from now (see also: The timeline between Roe to Dobbs).
It's hard to address women's issues in a group of men. It's doubly hard if the men are ambivalent or emotionally stunted. And it's tripply hard if the bigots got to them first.
As far as kids content goes, the old stuff didn't disappear, and it's usually pretty easy to find. I actually make it a point to watch a lot of kids content so I can decide if I think it will be good for my nieces and nephew when they're old enough. If you like, I can send you a list of recommendations?
Sure, I'd be happy to have a list. That said, a lot of that older stuff also doesn't age well...some better than others.
I know this will be provocative but one possible interpretation is something along the lines of this quote from Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Emphasis mine
I think that there's a pretty strong argument that a lot of traditional masculinity (as performed by men) – that men should be "providers" or "protectors" etc – relies (to a considerable extent) on women being forced into a passive role, so that they can be 'provided' for or 'protected' by men. In fact the meltdown of a lot of men as women are emancipated kind of validates this – the model of male masculinity we have really struggles to exist without women being subjugated. As things like uncompensated care work (cleaning, cooking, etc) women have historically performed, which has enabled men to have full participation in the public sphere, start to die out it's kind of natural that we would expect a lot of old behaviours to die out and become obsolete as we move further towards gender equality.
I do think that "providing" and "protecting" can exist as masculine traits in a healthy way. But those traits can't be mutually exclusive to empowered women. Basically, being a provider (or protector) would just be a lens to view your life through. You might not be any more of a provider than the women around you.
I feel that I'm very much both a provider and protector, by nature, even though both my partner and I work and make similar amounts. I do not take my "roles" as any form of control though and ascribe to something more akin to Servant Leadership. Yes, I chose to take on hardships so that others won't have to and I do that not because they can't but because I don't want them to have to. I know it's my choice to take on the extra burden so they don't need to be indebted to me (however, a little gratitude won't kill, right?).
That said, I usually just refer to it as a martyrdom complex - easier to explain to people that it just gets me going to suffer in other people's place instead. Doesn't need to be toxic (I clean the gutters because women are weak) but it's just that I am aware that a job needs doing and isn't fun, so I'll just get it done to have it done.
Now, if I could just get people to realize I like to be left alone to do my miserable work instead of watching me or trying to talk to me that'd be great.
But in that case do they really exist as "masculine" traits or just as "traits"?
If they aren’t masculine traits, then what is? And if masculinity is solely associated with negative traits, is a masculine/feminine paradigm sustainable in the long-term?
I'm not passing comment on whether or not they're masculine traits – I'm just saying there's a difference between "you should protect and provide for others" and "as a man you should protect and provide for others". Why is this more healthy or only healthy in the context of the latter and not the former?
All gender is performative. If you want to define your masculinity as "cleaning the gutters so my wife doesn't have to", that seems like an excellent performance to play.
Right but my point is why should we say "you're a man, go protect" (implying, at least somewhat, that the people we aren't telling to 'go protect' – i.e. women ) rather than "you're a human being, go protect"?
They're both fine. The masculine one gives a path to confused young men into positively understanding their gender and role in society.
Because we need positive ways of understanding our genders, since we don't live in a genderless civilisation. If you want to make every historically masculine trait into a human trait, that's fine. But now toxic masculinity is the only type you have left. And men will be masculine because again, gender is performative and most people want to perform. I think we should allow for good performances.
I think this needs a big "[citation needed]" sticker.