79 votes

Hezbollah is hit by a wave of exploding pagers that killed at least nine people and injured thousands

101 comments

  1. [16]
    MimicSquid
    Link
    You know, as creepy as it is that such a tactic exists, I can't think of a more targeted way to hit the people you want to hit with minimal collateral damage.

    You know, as creepy as it is that such a tactic exists, I can't think of a more targeted way to hit the people you want to hit with minimal collateral damage.

    46 votes
    1. [4]
      qob
      Link Parent
      Unless you are saying Israel wanted to kill an 8-year-old girl, this doesn't seem very targeted to me.

      Unless you are saying Israel wanted to kill an 8-year-old girl, this doesn't seem very targeted to me.

      42 votes
      1. [3]
        MimicSquid
        Link Parent
        It's all a matter of degree, yeah? Is it as targeted as individually capturing, sentencing, and punishing each one of them after a trial? No. Is is more targeted than any missile or most military...

        It's all a matter of degree, yeah? Is it as targeted as individually capturing, sentencing, and punishing each one of them after a trial? No. Is is more targeted than any missile or most military raids? Absolutely. That you're bringing up a singular girl is proof of its efficacy, not its failure.

        70 votes
        1. [3]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. Interesting
            Link Parent
            For what it's worth, I went looking for casualty videos everywhere I could find them, and I couldn't find more than one where the injured weren't men, almost all young adults. I saw one video with...

            For what it's worth, I went looking for casualty videos everywhere I could find them, and I couldn't find more than one where the injured weren't men, almost all young adults. I saw one video with a few frames of a small child being carried by a woman, and there was some blood on the child. I couldn't tell how severe his injuries were.

            If what I saw was reasonably representative, then that would imply this attack was effective in inflicting maximum damage to Hezbollah while minimizing civilian harm.

            25 votes
          2. MimicSquid
            Link Parent
            Oh yes. It's generally far worse than one innocent casualty to eight "proper" targets.

            Oh yes. It's generally far worse than one innocent casualty to eight "proper" targets.

            14 votes
    2. [3]
      skybrian
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I can think of a couple ways. When the Russians poison one of their enemies or they have an “accident,” that’s even cleaner, in terms of collateral damage. It’s more controlled. On the one hand,...

      I can think of a couple ways. When the Russians poison one of their enemies or they have an “accident,” that’s even cleaner, in terms of collateral damage. It’s more controlled.

      On the one hand, yes, it’s good when innocent people die less often. By the low standards we use for war, targeted attacks are much better than untargeted ones.

      But that doesn’t make it any less unsettling. These people are sharks. Sometimes, it’s sharks against sharks. But still, you don’t want to be in the water when they’re around.

      This reminds me of my mixed feelings about the war in Ukraine. Yes, we want the Ukrainians to win, but the logical consequence of that is rooting for more Russian deaths. If you want them to win, give them more weapons so they can kill Russians more effectively. War is what happens when the importance of winning overrides nearly all normal morality.

      One consequence of the war is that the drones become more technologically advanced and more usable for assassinations. Expect them to be used for targeted attacks in the future.

      What happens when states adopt, professionalize, and scale up terrorist tactics to use against their enemies? If it becomes more widespread, we get buildings built more like bunkers, metal detectors and other searches everywhere, increased electronic surveillance, more border restrictions, more walls, more guards, more locks, more cameras, less privacy. Airport security is a preview.

      We live our lives assuming terrorist attacks are rare. Hope it doesn’t change.

      13 votes
      1. [2]
        unkz
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Is it? I can’t think of many Russian poisonings, and out of a small sample I can immediately think of three unintended casualties of Novichok nerve agents. I’m doubtful that spreading polonium has...

        I can think of a couple ways. When the Russians poison one of their enemies or they have an “accident,” that’s even cleaner, in terms of collateral damage. It’s more controlled.

        Is it? I can’t think of many Russian poisonings, and out of a small sample I can immediately think of three unintended casualties of Novichok nerve agents. I’m doubtful that spreading polonium has had no negative effects on outside parties either.

        Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess

        Nick Bailey

        26 votes
        1. skybrian
          Link Parent
          Yeah, I guess I was making an unwarranted assumption there. Thanks.

          Yeah, I guess I was making an unwarranted assumption there. Thanks.

          9 votes
    3. [3]
      asparagus_p
      Link Parent
      True, but for the most part it is just causing injuries, so those people can continue to operate, albeit with more paranoia and fewer fingers.

      True, but for the most part it is just causing injuries, so those people can continue to operate, albeit with more paranoia and fewer fingers.

      6 votes
      1. WiseassWolfOfYoitsu
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        The paranoia might be a significant part of the purpose. Degrading their communications from being able to use electronic devices to only being able to send out their tea boys to run paper notes...

        The paranoia might be a significant part of the purpose. Degrading their communications from being able to use electronic devices to only being able to send out their tea boys to run paper notes would be a pretty significant reduction in their ability to rapidly coordinate.

        25 votes
      2. MimicSquid
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I think you underestimate recovery from a significant wound. If things were exploding on their belts, even a minor wound compromises mobility, limits energy for things other than recovery,...

        I think you underestimate recovery from a significant wound. If things were exploding on their belts, even a minor wound compromises mobility, limits energy for things other than recovery, stresses medical supply chains, etc. It's not a knockout blow, but to hit a thousand or more of the support staff in one blow with make everything harder and slower.

        Edit: corrected number of wounded

        22 votes
    4. [4]
      gil
      Link Parent
      source

      Mary Ellen O’Connell, a professor of law and international peace studies at the University of Notre Dame in Indiana, said booby-traps are banned under international law. “Weaponizing an object used by civilians is strictly prohibited,” she said.

      source

      9 votes
      1. [3]
        Interesting
        Link Parent
        I've seen people saying that, but if Israel sold pagers to Hezbollah through a shell company for Hezbollah use, and then set off those pagers by sending a Hezbollah frequency message to them... At...

        I've seen people saying that, but if Israel sold pagers to Hezbollah through a shell company for Hezbollah use, and then set off those pagers by sending a Hezbollah frequency message to them... At what point is the line between a civilian and military objects? If pagers used exclusively for military communication don't count, that seems like a severely conservative line.

        8 votes
        1. [2]
          Sodliddesu
          Link Parent
          A pager could have been bought by a member of Hamas and sold or otherwise ended up in non-militant hands. This is why booby traps are illegal, because they don't look dangerous. A landmine should...

          A pager could have been bought by a member of Hamas and sold or otherwise ended up in non-militant hands. This is why booby traps are illegal, because they don't look dangerous. A landmine should look dangerous. A device designed to cause harm shouldn't look like anything other than an explosive. It wouldn't be okay to cut open a goat and plant a bomb in it, it's not okay to fill a pressure cooker with explosives, and it's not cool to fill a bunch of ostensibly civilian pagers with bombs and hope they stay with the original purchaser for when you set them off.

          Just think about how many fakes get mixed together with real products on Amazon. You really want anyone making booby traps that might end up in those bins?

          6 votes
          1. Interesting
            Link Parent
            It really doesn't seem likely that anyone would sell their terrorism communication device; that would be an absolutely massive security breach that could get you killed. Ditto that people would...

            It really doesn't seem likely that anyone would sell their terrorism communication device; that would be an absolutely massive security breach that could get you killed. Ditto that people would likely be very careful with them -- having it found implicates you in a crime.

            I would agree with you if these were ordinary cell phones, and there is even a somewhat of a argument for the handheld radios that were also exploded a day later, but pagers are very unusual today, and in the few niches where they are used are typically employer provided.

            If Israel had left this for years without setting off the bombs, it might be more likely that they would have passed hands to non-militants, but in just 6 months makes that feel unlikely, particularly for it to happen at at a scale that would cause disproportionate civilian casualties (or even proportionate at the level of any other military strike Israel could have made on a particular target).

            The children who died are a tragedy, but if Israel had chosen a more traditional drone strike on even a small percentage of those impacted by the pager bombs instead, far more children would have likely died. Orders of magnitude more would likely die in a land invasion. Israel has the right to retaliate for the hundreds to thousands of unguided rocket attacks that over the past year have killed their own children, and forced tens of thousands of people in Northern Israel to evacuate from their homes since October 7th. Frankly, this seems like the option that minimized civilian casualties.

            8 votes
  2. [4]
    Fal
    Link
    Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

    Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

    Hand-held radios used by Hezbollah detonated late on Wednesday afternoon across Lebanon's south and in Beirut's southern suburbs, a security source and a witness said, further hiking tensions with Israel a day after similar explosions launched via the group's pagers.At least one of the blasts took place near a funeral organized by Iran-backed Hezbollah for those killed the previous day when thousands of pagers used by the group exploded across the country and wounded many of the group's fighters.

    The hand-held radios were purchased by Hezbollah five months ago, around the same time that the pagers were bought, said a security source.

    27 votes
    1. [3]
      CannibalisticApple
      Link Parent
      This detail is particularly shocking. I don't know how these were produced compared to the pagers, since if it is a model from 2014 and got explosives inserted during production, that would...

      Images of the exploded walkie-talkies showed labels with "ICOM" and "made in Japan." According to its website, ICOM, which did not immediately reply to a request for comment, is a Japan-based radio communications and telephone company.

      The company has said that production of model IC-V82, which appeared to be the model in the images, was phased out in 2014.

      This detail is particularly shocking. I don't know how these were produced compared to the pagers, since if it is a model from 2014 and got explosives inserted during production, that would potentially mean this has been planned for a decade somehow. Alternatively (and more likely in my opinion), the explosives may have been added later.

      Either way though, they were made by a different company than the pagers, so they would be compromised at different points. Hezbollah now has incentive to abandon all devices purchased in the last few months, which seriously hampers their communication abilities right now. It will likely take a good chunk of their funds to replace them, but they'll also be MUCH more paranoid of any new devices. The fact it happened to two separate devices from two companies is alarming.

      This is tactically brilliant in some ways, but also feels like it has strong potential to escalate tensions in the Middle East even further. Any sort of attack would do that at this point, honestly. Israel isn't popular with its neighbors, and launching a large-scale attack on foreign soil—even one as precisely coordinated as this one, as opposed to just attacking areas/cities—won't help with that. The precision may create more incentive to take them out, as this attack was genuinely unpredictable and shows Israel has disturbing degrees of access to supply chains. It raises the question of what else they have in the works.

      12 votes
      1. skybrian
        Link Parent
        Some other possibilities: maybe they've been sitting in a warehouse all this time? Maybe it's a mislabelled counterfeit that was manufactured somewhere else?

        Some other possibilities: maybe they've been sitting in a warehouse all this time? Maybe it's a mislabelled counterfeit that was manufactured somewhere else?

        12 votes
      2. fleg
        Link Parent
        Icom says that those were probably counterfeits: https://www.icomjapan.com/news/4204/ I am a ham radio operator, and radios like those are particularly long lasting. The technology doesn't change...

        Icom says that those were probably counterfeits: https://www.icomjapan.com/news/4204/

        I don't know how these were produced compared to the pagers, since if it is a model from 2014 and got explosives inserted during production, that would potentially mean this has been planned for a decade somehow.

        I am a ham radio operator, and radios like those are particularly long lasting. The technology doesn't change much and they're built to take a beating. There's one part that wears off, and it's a battery - and I would assume that after a few years of intensive use users had to order replacement batteries, and since Icom doesn't make them anymore, then best they could get were some unofficial aftermarket parts. That's where I would look first.

        5 votes
    2. Removed by admin: 2 comments by 2 users
      Link Parent
  3. [3]
    smoontjes
    Link
    This article has a video of one of the explosions: https://nos.nl/artikel/2537529-doden-en-duizenden-gewonden-door-exploderende-hezbollah-piepers-in-libanon-en-syrie Relatively safe to watch as...

    This article has a video of one of the explosions:

    https://nos.nl/artikel/2537529-doden-en-duizenden-gewonden-door-exploderende-hezbollah-piepers-in-libanon-en-syrie

    Relatively safe to watch as there is no blood.

    Judging by the video above, I don't see any way at all feasible to make a more precise attack than this against known terrorists. In the video, only the person with the pager is hurt. The people standing less than 1 meter next to him look to be completely unharmed. It's a lot less innocent casualties than 500 kg bombs, that's for sure.

    24 votes
    1. [2]
      hungariantoast
      Link Parent
      Same video, but on Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/dozens-hezbollah-members-wounded-lebanon-when-pagers-exploded-sources-witnesses-2024-09-17/
      15 votes
  4. [17]
    updawg
    Link
    Update: Iran's ambassador in Lebanon has been wounded in the explosion of pagers, Iranian News reports say.

    Update: Iran's ambassador in Lebanon has been wounded in the explosion of pagers, Iranian News reports say.

    22 votes
    1. [4]
      Interesting
      Link Parent
      I think the fact that he had a Hezbollah pager should surprise no-one.

      I think the fact that he had a Hezbollah pager should surprise no-one.

      45 votes
      1. [3]
        updawg
        Link Parent
        I mean, I'm a little surprised that Hezbollah used pagers, but you are otherwise correct. I guess it's a way around Israel being able to precisely geolocate you by cell phone. But I guess it makes...

        I mean, I'm a little surprised that Hezbollah used pagers, but you are otherwise correct. I guess it's a way around Israel being able to precisely geolocate you by cell phone. But I guess it makes it pretty easy to hit you when your organization is buying pagers and no one else is.

        15 votes
        1. [2]
          teaearlgraycold
          Link Parent
          Why isn’t a pager as easy to locate?

          Why isn’t a pager as easy to locate?

          8 votes
          1. MimicSquid
            Link Parent
            Different technology. Most phones these days have gps built in, and even if they don't, they're two way communications, whereas pagers just respond to a particular wave emitted from a transmitter....

            Different technology. Most phones these days have gps built in, and even if they don't, they're two way communications, whereas pagers just respond to a particular wave emitted from a transmitter. Especially if they're one-way pagers, those literally don't have any outbound signature to be tracked.

            30 votes
    2. [11]
      updawg
      Link Parent
      Update 2: Eight people have been killed and 2,750 wounded - 200 of them critically - by exploding pagers across Lebanon, the country's health minister says.

      Update 2: Eight people have been killed and 2,750 wounded - 200 of them critically - by exploding pagers across Lebanon, the country's health minister says.

      23 votes
      1. [10]
        Interesting
        Link Parent
        Damn. And given the amount of surveillance Israel has, this is probably enough for them to identify many of the members they previously weren't aware of. If someone is injured, they either had one...

        Damn. And given the amount of surveillance Israel has, this is probably enough for them to identify many of the members they previously weren't aware of. If someone is injured, they either had one of the pagers, or is very close to someone who did.

        25 votes
        1. [9]
          steezyaspie
          Link Parent
          Or they happened to be standing next to the targeted person at a market stall, or in line for a coffee. I don’t think that being injured in this attack is strong evidence that you’re affiliated...

          Or they happened to be standing next to the targeted person at a market stall, or in line for a coffee. I don’t think that being injured in this attack is strong evidence that you’re affiliated with Hezbollah in isolation.

          26 votes
          1. [7]
            sparksbet
            Link Parent
            Yeah, this is why I'm skeptical of all the people insisting that this is a great way to target members of Hezbollah with minimal collateral damage. That's only true if you accept the assumption...

            Yeah, this is why I'm skeptical of all the people insisting that this is a great way to target members of Hezbollah with minimal collateral damage. That's only true if you accept the assumption that the victims of this attack are definitionally members of Hezbollah and not innocent bystanders. I'm sure some of the people targeted here were affiliated with Hezbollah, but given Israel's habit of justifying atrocities with assertions of association with terrorist groups, often with little to no evidence, I'm not exactly eager to accept the assumption that those hit by this attack must necessarily not be innocent civilians.

            21 votes
            1. [6]
              stu2b50
              Link Parent
              The assumptions are that anyone with a pager are members of hezbollah (which seems fair given it’s a supply chain attack - Mossad likely found the hezbollah shell company they were using to buy...

              The assumptions are that anyone with a pager are members of hezbollah (which seems fair given it’s a supply chain attack - Mossad likely found the hezbollah shell company they were using to buy pagers) and that the explosions were comparatively small. That is, small relative to drone strikes or missile strikes or targeted assassinations by people. Which I think is reasonable, all of the latter 3 probably involve more indirect casualties of bystanders.

              11 votes
              1. [2]
                EgoEimi
                Link Parent
                It came out that the 8 or 9 year old girl killed had picked up the beeping pager from the kitchen table to bring to her father at home. From video evidence, it appears that the micro explosive...

                It came out that the 8 or 9 year old girl killed had picked up the beeping pager from the kitchen table to bring to her father at home.

                From video evidence, it appears that the micro explosive only harms someone holding it directly. Bystanders only a few feet away are unharmed.

                This is probably the most precisely targeted military operation in human history against an enemy that uses civilians as human shields, and Israel is already being condemned by UN officials.

                21 votes
                1. Minori
                  Link Parent
                  You weren't kidding... I understand the fear of escalation, but this is one of the most targeted attacks I could possibly imagine. It reminds me of people telling off Israel on October 7th...

                  You weren't kidding... I understand the fear of escalation, but this is one of the most targeted attacks I could possibly imagine. It reminds me of people telling off Israel on October 7th...

                  12 votes
              2. [3]
                sparksbet
                Link Parent
                I'm not sure it's necessarily reasonable to assume anyone with a pager is a member. Your logic makes sense, but even under those circumstances it's certainly possible for innocents to end up with...

                I'm not sure it's necessarily reasonable to assume anyone with a pager is a member. Your logic makes sense, but even under those circumstances it's certainly possible for innocents to end up with pagers, and there are a lot of details we don't know that could push that possible much further. The collateral damage may well be small relative to alternatives, but I don't think it's sensible to take Israel's word on how much is targeted and how much is collateral damage given how unreliable their statements on that front tend to be.

                6 votes
                1. [2]
                  stu2b50
                  Link Parent
                  Is it? How would someone else end up with a pager? Pager's are not commonly used by anyone, and if you were someone who used a pager and isn't part of a terrorist organization (e.g, doctors), you...

                  Is it? How would someone else end up with a pager? Pager's are not commonly used by anyone, and if you were someone who used a pager and isn't part of a terrorist organization (e.g, doctors), you can just buy them from normal companies. It's only because it's Hezbollah that you need to procure them clandenstinely - the FBI did the same thing to gangs in Mexico, because they also have issues getting IT.

                  Furthermore, if you were part of Hezbollah, you wouldn't give your Hezbollah pager to random people, since if nothing else they'll start getting Hezbollah messages and that's a security leak.

                  12 votes
                  1. sparksbet
                    Link Parent
                    I think it depends how they actually planted the explosives, supply-side, and whether there was intermingling of the pagers acquired by Hezbollah for Hezbollah purposes and those used by others....

                    I think it depends how they actually planted the explosives, supply-side, and whether there was intermingling of the pagers acquired by Hezbollah for Hezbollah purposes and those used by others. They, for instance, could acquire pagers through their shell company and distribute some to Hezbollah but also sell some to legitimate parties through the shell company -- much like how money laundering operations also do legitimate business. It's also possible that the original planting of the explosives also included pagers designated for other companies in the area, depending on how targeted exactly the supply-side interference was. I don't know enough details to really say, and I doubt they'll ever reveal so much detail to the public for security reasons on either side. It's totally possible that they did indeed do this in the most targeted way they possibly could -- but I'm just cautioning against taking Israel's word for it.

                    8 votes
          2. Interesting
            Link Parent
            Did you see the grocery store video? In that video, the victim is standing directly on top of a display of vegetables, and next to two other people. Both others appear unharmed, and the wagon...

            Did you see the grocery store video? In that video, the victim is standing directly on top of a display of vegetables, and next to two other people. Both others appear unharmed, and the wagon holding the groceries is mostly undamaged.

            https://x.com/Ins1der_News/status/1836263406321479901/video/2

            8 votes
  5. [16]
    updawg
    (edited )
    Link
    Supply chain interdiction

    BEIRUT (AP) — Dozens of people were wounded in Beirut’s suburbs and other parts of Lebanon after their handheld pagers exploded Tuesday, Lebanese state media and security officials said. It wasn’t immediately clear if people were killed.

    A senior military intelligence official and an official with a Lebanese group with knowledge of the situation, both of whom spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation, said that pagers carried by Hezbollah members were detonated. The second official said it was believed to be an Israeli attack.

    Wake up babe, new example of non-kinetic attacks having a kinetic effect just dropped!

    I really hope that I can someday learn how they did this and how the genius behind it realized it was possible. Sounds like a really cool attack vector.

    Supply chain interdiction

    19 votes
    1. [2]
      Interesting
      Link Parent
      I was saying to a friend earlier, if they had asked me yesterday if this was possible, I would have told them it was infeasible. The explosions don't look like just a battery over voltage...

      I was saying to a friend earlier, if they had asked me yesterday if this was possible, I would have told them it was infeasible. The explosions don't look like just a battery over voltage explosion that could be caused by compromised firmware. The best theory I've seen is that Israel compromised the supply chain and added a few grams of explosive during manufacturing.

      Absolutely insane.

      36 votes
      1. Eji1700
        Link Parent
        They've done this before with a cell phone, and in that case yes they added C4 or some explosive to the phone. This has to be similar because there's no way a pager battery, or really any battery...

        They've done this before with a cell phone, and in that case yes they added C4 or some explosive to the phone. This has to be similar because there's no way a pager battery, or really any battery that would fit in a pager, could cause the damage these did.

        26 votes
    2. EgoEimi
      Link Parent
      And it really drives home the importance of supply chain sovereignty w.r.t. national security.

      And it really drives home the importance of supply chain sovereignty w.r.t. national security.

      32 votes
    3. [12]
      smoontjes
      Link Parent
      I don't know that cool is the word I would have used but it certainly is very interesting and I will definitely be watching the open source space to see what analysts make of it. It for sure...

      I don't know that cool is the word I would have used but it certainly is very interesting and I will definitely be watching the open source space to see what analysts make of it. It for sure massively damages Hizbollah communications, as well as make them fear any tech. For better or worse, Israel is so far ahead of its enemies that it's outright stupid to ever attack them unless you have a death wish or a hope to be martyred. The war in the region is not going to calm down anytime soon though.. it's going to get a lot worse. We are also approaching the 1 year anniversary of October 7th which I'm quite scared about seeing what will happen.

      15 votes
      1. [3]
        updawg
        Link Parent
        Has there ever been a major attack on the anniversary of another attack? Unless you're talking about fearing that Israel will kick everything into overdrive.

        Has there ever been a major attack on the anniversary of another attack? Unless you're talking about fearing that Israel will kick everything into overdrive.

        4 votes
        1. p4t44
          Link Parent
          The October 7th Hamas attack was on the anniversary of the Yom Kippur War.

          The October 7th Hamas attack was on the anniversary of the Yom Kippur War.

          20 votes
        2. R3qn65
          Link Parent
          The US consulate in Benghazi was attacked and destroyed on September 11, 2012.

          The US consulate in Benghazi was attacked and destroyed on September 11, 2012.

          10 votes
      2. [8]
        Melvincible
        Link Parent
        It does feel like it's going to get a lot worse. It feels like violence is increasing in too many places at once. Venezuela coup attempt, armored cops in the NY subway, race riots in the UK......

        It does feel like it's going to get a lot worse. It feels like violence is increasing in too many places at once. Venezuela coup attempt, armored cops in the NY subway, race riots in the UK... it's so much.

        3 votes
        1. [7]
          redbearsam
          Link Parent
          Not saying you're wrong, but where I live - Bristol UK - no racists turned up for the big riot, and it ended up just being a giant party in the street with 1000s of counter protesters. So there's...

          Not saying you're wrong, but where I live - Bristol UK - no racists turned up for the big riot, and it ended up just being a giant party in the street with 1000s of counter protesters. So there's good bits in there too.

          5 votes
          1. [5]
            updawg
            Link Parent
            Also, there hasn't been a coup attempt in Venezuela for 22 years. Maduro just retained power, but there was no violence. I guess there was this shitshow in 2020.

            Also, there hasn't been a coup attempt in Venezuela for 22 years. Maduro just retained power, but there was no violence.

            I guess there was this shitshow in 2020.

            3 votes
            1. [3]
              DefinitelyNotAFae
              Link Parent
              Hey so, I can only speak for my student's experience but she's had friends who have been disappeared by the police over this election. She knows they're almost certainly dead, and hopes that it...

              Hey so, I can only speak for my student's experience but she's had friends who have been disappeared by the police over this election. She knows they're almost certainly dead, and hopes that it was all that happened to them.

              But I think it's safe to say there's been violence.

              3 votes
              1. [2]
                updawg
                Link Parent
                I mean, I didn't say there isn't violence. I would guarantee there's violence, disappearances, and death, particularly meted out by Maduro. But a coup is a few steps up the violence scale beyond that.

                I mean, I didn't say there isn't violence. I would guarantee there's violence, disappearances, and death, particularly meted out by Maduro. But a coup is a few steps up the violence scale beyond that.

                2 votes
                1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                  Link Parent
                  It wasn't clear to me that the implication was a coup against Maduro rather than, arguably, a coup by him. I misunderstood the claim by the previous person and thus misunderstood your reply! ETA...

                  It wasn't clear to me that the implication was a coup against Maduro rather than, arguably, a coup by him. I misunderstood the claim by the previous person and thus misunderstood your reply!

                  ETA also, of note, you did say "there was no violence" which is what I was replying to.

                  3 votes
            2. Melvincible
              Link Parent
              https://www.politico.eu/article/venezuela-arrests-united-states-europe-citizens-alleged-coup-kill-nicolas-maduro/ Combined with US sanctioning 16 of Maduro's allies 2 days earlier. And stealing...

              https://www.politico.eu/article/venezuela-arrests-united-states-europe-citizens-alleged-coup-kill-nicolas-maduro/

              Combined with US sanctioning 16 of Maduro's allies 2 days earlier. And stealing his plane. And Spain officially not recognizing Maduro's victory. 3 Americans (one a navy seal!) and some Spaniards getting caught with hundreds of US weapons seems like a pretty obvious coup attempt. I could certainly be wrong, but my god you don't get more suspicious than that... given the history of the CIA in South America.

              2 votes
  6. [3]
    skybrian
    Link
    I’m wondering how many of these pagers were sold to people that the Israelis didn’t intend to target? Are there other people walking around with pagers that have explosives in them?

    I’m wondering how many of these pagers were sold to people that the Israelis didn’t intend to target? Are there other people walking around with pagers that have explosives in them?

    16 votes
    1. [2]
      Interesting
      Link Parent
      ToI is claiming they're a custom model Hezbollah obtained a few months ago. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/exploding-pagers-were-latest-model-acquired-by-hezbollah-months-ago-sources/
      13 votes
      1. ogre
        Link Parent
        Not sure if the article is updated, but right now it only mentions that the pagers are the latest model. I don’t think there can be any certainty that the pagers were only sold to Hezbollah.

        Not sure if the article is updated, but right now it only mentions that the pagers are the latest model. I don’t think there can be any certainty that the pagers were only sold to Hezbollah.

        17 votes
  7. [4]
    skybrian
    (edited )
    Link
    Looks like BAC Consulting in Hungary was a shell company set up by the Israelis. What we know about firm linked to Lebanon pagers (BBC) … … … … Who made the pagers? The Israelis. The Israeli...

    Looks like BAC Consulting in Hungary was a shell company set up by the Israelis.

    What we know about firm linked to Lebanon pagers (BBC)

    BAC Consulting is a Hungarian-based company which Gold Apollo says had permission to use its brand through a licensing agreement.

    BBC Verify has accessed BAC’s company records, which reveal it was first incorporated in 2022 and has a single shareholder. It is registered to a building in Budapest's 14th district.

    As well as BAC, a further 13 companies and one person are registered at the same building.

    […] BAC's website, which is now inaccessible, previously said it was scaling up its business in Asia, and had a goal to "develop international technology co-operation among countries for the sale of telecommunication products".

    A company brochure, published on LinkedIn, lists eight organisations BAC claims to have worked with - including the European Commission and the UK Department for International Development (DfID).

    BBC Verify has approached all the listed organisations for comment. The UK Foreign Office - which has taken on DfID's responsibilities - told us it was in the process of investigating. But based on initial conversations, it said it did not have any involvement with BAC, despite the firm's claim.

    BAC's website listed one person as its chief executive and founder - Cristiana Bársony-Arcidiacono - and does not appear to mention other employees.

    NBC has reported it had spoken to Ms Bársony-Arcidiacono, who confirmed her company worked with Gold Apollo. However, when asked about the pagers and the explosions, she said: "I don’t make the pagers. I am just the intermediate. I think you got it wrong.

    Who made the pagers? The Israelis.

    The Israeli government did not tamper with the Hezbollah devices that exploded, defense and intelligence officials say. It manufactured them as part of an elaborate ruse. - New York Times - (archive)

    Israel has neither confirmed nor denied any role in the explosions, but 12 current and former defense and intelligence officials who were briefed on the attack say the Israelis were behind it, describing the operation as complex and long in the making. They spoke to The New York Times on the condition of anonymity, given the sensitivity of the subject.

    By all appearances, B.A.C. Consulting was a Hungary-based company that was under contract to produce the devices on behalf of a Taiwanese company, Gold Apollo. In fact, it was part of an Israeli front, according to three intelligence officers briefed on the operation. They said at least two other shell companies were created as well to mask the real identities of the people creating the pagers: Israeli intelligence officers.

    B.A.C. did take on ordinary clients, for which it produced a range of ordinary pagers. But the only client that really mattered was Hezbollah, and its pagers were far from ordinary. Produced separately, they contained batteries laced with the explosive PETN, according to the three intelligence officers.

    The pagers began shipping to Lebanon in the summer of 2022 in small numbers, but production was quickly ramped up after Mr. Nasrallah denounced cellphones.

    14 votes
    1. [3]
      updawg
      Link Parent
      So Israel didn't just interdict the supply chain; they were the supply chain??

      So Israel didn't just interdict the supply chain; they were the supply chain??

      10 votes
      1. stu2b50
        Link Parent
        That made the most sense. When you're an international terrorist organization, you can't just waltz up to any old company and make an order. You are economically sanctioned by everyone and their...

        That made the most sense. When you're an international terrorist organization, you can't just waltz up to any old company and make an order. You are economically sanctioned by everyone and their mother, after all. So you have to be clandestine, and find companies willing to do some shady orders. That's an easy in for organizations like Mossad.

        The FBI did the same thing with cartels - they set up the phone company Anom to sell them. In that case, it was for wiretapping rather than exploding, but regardless they were the entire supply chain. The cartels are in a similar situation to Hezbollah in that they don't have a lot of options to buy phones from.

        13 votes
  8. zptc
    Link
    https://www.wired.com/story/pager-explosion-hezbollah/

    https://www.wired.com/story/pager-explosion-hezbollah/

    “Those explosions aren’t just batteries,” says Jake Williams, vice president of research and development at Hunter Strategy who formerly worked for the US National Security Agency. “Based on the reporting, these pagers were likely interdicted by Israeli authorities and modified with explosives. This highlights the risks of supply chain security, especially in places where technology is harder to ship to.”

    “It's unlikely that hacking was involved, as it's likely that explosive material had to be inside the pagers to cause such an effect,” says Lukasz Olejnik, an independent consultant and visiting senior research fellow at King’s College London’s Department of War Studies. “Reports mention the delivery of new pagers recently, so perhaps the delivery was compromised.”

    13 votes
  9. pete_the_paper_boat
    Link
    Impressive attack, I assume they got involved with their supply chain and delivered pagers with explosives. I wonder what message was used as the trigger word. 'kaboom', maybe something witty?...

    Impressive attack, I assume they got involved with their supply chain and delivered pagers with explosives.

    I wonder what message was used as the trigger word. 'kaboom', maybe something witty?

    This also hurts their capabilities significantly cause it takes out their active terrorists pretty efficiently and they can't trust their pagers now either.

    12 votes
  10. [6]
    patience_limited
    Link
    If there was good intelligence that Hezbollah ordered a batch of a particular pager model and planned to distribute the devices hand to hand, it's an incredible (and disturbing) example of...

    If there was good intelligence that Hezbollah ordered a batch of a particular pager model and planned to distribute the devices hand to hand, it's an incredible (and disturbing) example of leveraging social network effects. With enough time, the tactic can penetrate throughout the footsoldier level of a terrorist network organized in isolated cells, exposing all the members.

    This tactic probably took years of planning, and I can't see it being effective more than once. And it leaves open the strategic question of whether it will be effective in blocking Hezbollah for any length of time, or will simply drive Iran to escalate to open warfare.

    11 votes
    1. [3]
      skybrian
      Link Parent
      How could it be planned years ahead when Hezzabollah decided to switch to pagers months ago? I see this as quite similar in effect to a terrorist attack. It’s setting off bombs in civilian areas....

      How could it be planned years ahead when Hezzabollah decided to switch to pagers months ago?

      I see this as quite similar in effect to a terrorist attack. It’s setting off bombs in civilian areas. (In this case, rather small bombs. Nonetheless.)

      8 votes
      1. [2]
        patience_limited
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I'd be very curious as to how thousands of pagers were loaded up with explosives so carefully that they continued to function long enough for widespread distribution. While there's evidence Mossad...

        I'd be very curious as to how thousands of pagers were loaded up with explosives so carefully that they continued to function long enough for widespread distribution. While there's evidence Mossad may have done this a few times previously for one-off assassination devices, the scale and undetectability suggests extensive research and planning effort, even if a specific type of telecommunications device wasn't the target.

        The history of physical supply chain attacks is that it takes years to identify and cultivate assets who are in a position to provide accurate information or intervene. I'll grant that the global distribution of supply chains makes it quick to intercept and tamper with a specific shipment once you know that it's on its way.

        Edit: More details are emerging. Per Reuters' Lebanese source, the pagers were modified at the production level with a circuit board that included the explosive charge.

        13 votes
        1. skybrian
          Link Parent
          They updated the story again. Archive link: https://archive.is/pum3P And it seems Israel did it again: I suspect that ongoing work on one-off assassination devices was pretty good preparation for...

          They updated the story again. Archive link: https://archive.is/pum3P

          And it seems Israel did it again:

          Hand-held radios used by Hezbollah detonated late on Wednesday afternoon across Lebanon's south and in Beirut's southern suburbs, a security source and a witness said, further hiking tensions with Israel a day after similar explosions launched via the group's pagers.At least one of the blasts took place near a funeral organized by Iran-backed Hezbollah for those killed the previous day when thousands of pagers used by the group exploded across the country and wounded many of the group's fighters.

          The group, which was thrown briefly into disarray by the pager attacks, said on Wednesday it had attacked Israeli artillery positions with rockets in the first strike at its arch-foe since blasts wounded thousands of its members in Lebanon and raised the prospect of a wider Middle East war.

          The hand-held radios were purchased by Hezbollah five months ago, around the same time that the pagers were bought, said a security source.

          I suspect that ongoing work on one-off assassination devices was pretty good preparation for these attacks when the opportunity came up. They need to have people at similar places in supply chains. The requirements for the devices are pretty similar. Pagers and radios likely have more empty space inside than cell phones. The scale is unprecedented, but it’s scaling up something they already do.

          12 votes
    2. [2]
      Melvincible
      Link Parent
      Why doesn't this already all count as open warfare?

      Why doesn't this already all count as open warfare?

      6 votes
      1. MimicSquid
        Link Parent
        No one's yet trying to take or hold land. Israel is having a hard enough time actually completing any of their stated objectives in Gaza and doesn't want to invade Lebanon, and Hezbollah doesn't...

        No one's yet trying to take or hold land. Israel is having a hard enough time actually completing any of their stated objectives in Gaza and doesn't want to invade Lebanon, and Hezbollah doesn't want to try and hold what's currently Israeli soil. So they keep poking at each other.

        9 votes
  11. skybrian
    Link
    Japanese walkie-talkie maker investigating Lebanon explosion reports (Washington Post)

    Japanese walkie-talkie maker investigating Lebanon explosion reports (Washington Post)

    Icom, a Japanese manufacturer of radio equipment, said in a statement on its website Thursday morning that it produced the IC-V82 handheld radio from 2004 to October 2014 and shipped it to overseas markets, including in the Middle East, during that period. But there had been no shipments since the model was discontinued about 10 years ago and the production of batteries to operate the unit had also been discontinued, the company said.

    Furthermore, the photos of the devices did not show the hologram sticker that Icom had attached to the units to prevent counterfeiting, “so we cannot confirm whether the product was shipped from our company or not,” the statement said.

    9 votes
  12. skybrian
    Link
    Thousands injured in Lebanon as pagers used by Hezbollah explode (Washington Post) ...

    Thousands injured in Lebanon as pagers used by Hezbollah explode (Washington Post)

    The suspected attack appeared to be the latest salvo in the nearly year-long conflict between Israel and Hezbollah tied to the war in Gaza. It triggered the worst mass casualty event in Lebanon of the war, leaving the country’s health system reeling: At least 2,800 people were injured across the country, mostly with wounds to the face, hands or stomach, Health Minister Firas Abiad said. At least nine people were killed.

    ...

    Footage from hospitals also showed people with severe injuries, such as missing fingers or deep gashes to their body, including badly injured children. Video filmed inside Bahman Hospital in Beirut’s southern suburbs depicted bedlam, as dozens of injured people crowd the hospital’s rooms and corridors. Some of the injured lie on the floor covered in blood, while others use paper towels to cover their wounds. Several more injured men are carried through the hospital entrance on gurneys or bloodied sheets as sirens ring out in the distance.

    7 votes
  13. [3]
    gil
    Link
    This is absolutely insane! Imagine hackers being able to remotely explode the cellphone in your pocket or while you're having a call. Not to mention the innocent people that got harmed as part of...

    This is absolutely insane! Imagine hackers being able to remotely explode the cellphone in your pocket or while you're having a call. Not to mention the innocent people that got harmed as part of this attack you can't really control.

    5 votes
    1. Diff
      Link Parent
      Something extra has got to be going on here. Lithium batteries are barely tamed beasts, but they won't detonate. They'll burn ferociously and unstoppably, but I'm not sure they can be coaxed into...

      Something extra has got to be going on here. Lithium batteries are barely tamed beasts, but they won't detonate. They'll burn ferociously and unstoppably, but I'm not sure they can be coaxed into an explosion.

      24 votes
    2. Moonchild
      Link Parent
      this sort of thing is very cute and flashy, but it doesn't really scale. in my opinion, as citizens, we should primarily be worried about things that scale

      this sort of thing is very cute and flashy, but it doesn't really scale. in my opinion, as citizens, we should primarily be worried about things that scale

      7 votes
  14. skybrian
    Link
    Hezbollah handed out pagers hours before blasts - even after checks (Reuters) ... ...

    Hezbollah handed out pagers hours before blasts - even after checks (Reuters)

    Lebanon's Hezbollah was still handing its members new Gold Apollo branded pagers hours before thousands of the devices blew up this week, two security sources said, indicating the group was confident they were safe despite an ongoing sweep of electronic equipment to identify threats.

    One member of the Iranian-backed militia received a new pager on Monday that exploded the next day while it was still in its box, said one of the sources.

    ...

    Hezbollah examined the pagers after they were delivered to Lebanon, starting in 2022, including by travelling through airports with them to ensure they would not trigger alarms, two additional sources told Reuters. In total, Reuters spoke to six sources familiar with the details of the exploding devices for this story.

    The sources did not specify the name of the airports where they conducted the tests.

    Rather than a specific suspicion of the pagers, the checks had been part of a routine "sweep" of its equipment, including communications devices, to find any indications that they were laced with explosives or surveillance mechanisms, one of the security sources said.

    ...

    The walkie-talkie explosions left 25 people dead and at least 650 injured, according to Lebanon's health ministry - a much higher fatality rate than the previous day's pager blasts, which killed 12 and wounded nearly 3,000.

    That is because they carried a higher payload of explosives than the beepers, one of the security sources and the intelligence source said.

    4 votes
  15. skybrian
    Link
    "Mossad companies" in Budapest and Sofia appear to be shell companies, not front firms I guess that’s true until they sacrifice them for one last job? … … …

    "Mossad companies" in Budapest and Sofia appear to be shell companies, not front firms

    Although the international press has described BAC Consulting as a front company, the two companies that have been identified so far in the case do not seem to be intelligence front companies in the classic sense of the word. They are in fact so-called "shell companies", but they could regardless be linked to the Israeli secret service.

    There is a difference between a shell company – or, to put it another way, a disposable company – and a secret service front company. A well-run front company is built up by the secret service over several years. These companies do actual business, they make a profit just like a normal company, they serve their real clients and partners, who have no idea about the company’s background.
    In addition to their legitimate, genuine activities, and under their cover, front companies assist in covert operations. The front companies are set up, managed and kept under full control by secret operatives, and are not intended to be sacrificed in an operation. On the contrary.

    I guess that’s true until they sacrifice them for one last job?

    So far, only a fraction of the mysterious chain of firms is known.

    • The original manufacturer of the detonated AR-924 pagers was the Taiwanese company Gold Apollo.

    • On paper, it was the Hungarian company BAC Consulting that had a contract with Gold Apollo.

    • However, as Telex understands, BAC Consulting was in contact with Norta Global Ltd. of Bulgaria, which was likely the company behind BAC. But the chain of companies does not end there, although the names of the other companies involved still remain unknown.

    These "disposable companies" are stacked on top of each other like the layers of an onion. It is the top layer of the onion that is most clearly visible, but the next layer, which is linked to it in one way or another, is less so. In the Israeli operation, it was BAC Consulting that was the top peel of the onion, and it is this company that is now on display.

    According to our information, the Bulgarian company, Norta Global, named by Telex's source may have played a role in the second line of the chain of companies involved in the Israeli intelligence operation, but there are more and more indications that it was also a shell company just like BAC Consulting. One such indication is that it did not have any real activities and was registered with a headquarters service provider in Sofia just like BAC was in Budapest.

    Officially, the Bulgarian National Security Service only revealed that Norta Global had no real activity, that it was not the company that manufactured the pagers, and that there was no evidence that the devices had ever been in Bulgaria. The Hungarian government has made the same claim about BAC Consulting.

    4 votes
  16. [2]
    first-must-burn
    Link
    The language in this and other articles called this a hack, and some talk about intervention with the pagers before they were distributed by Hezbollah. When I read the headline, I assumed the...

    The language in this and other articles called this a hack, and some talk about intervention with the pagers before they were distributed by Hezbollah. When I read the headline, I assumed the pagers would have had to have explosives added to them, but it doesn't seem to be the claim?

    If so that leaves 1) a hack where a lithium battery was induced to overheat and explode, but I can't see the batteries in these pagers being very large or 2) they had explosives in them by design, and the hack merely triggered them. This last case seems insane to me, though I suppose if it were true it would illustrate how far out of hand things have gotten.

    3 votes
    1. I_Like_Turtles
      Link Parent
      There's CCTV video of a couple of the devices exploding, so I would be very very surprised if these devices were not part of a supply chain compromise and this was purely a hack. Lithium ion...

      There's CCTV video of a couple of the devices exploding, so I would be very very surprised if these devices were not part of a supply chain compromise and this was purely a hack.

      Lithium ion batteries don't explode in the manner shown in the videos, they burn (albeit very violently).

      15 votes
  17. [14]
    daywalker
    Link
    Topics surrounding Israel always are the most frustrating ones on Tildes for me. This is an extremely bad development for it will definitely lead to paranoia, it worsens the situation in the...

    Topics surrounding Israel always are the most frustrating ones on Tildes for me. This is an extremely bad development for it will definitely lead to paranoia, it worsens the situation in the middle-east, and it increases the possibility of a multi-party war, while people are going "Nice attack, here's your achievement." I guess it's easier to take this stance if you don't have skin in the game and live in a far off rich nation.

    36 votes
    1. [13]
      DefinitelyNotAFae
      Link Parent
      Yeah I don't like the casual, or celebratory, attitude. Shit is incredibly complicated, but innocent people are afraid, a child was killed, a whole "attack on another country's soil is fine when...

      Yeah I don't like the casual, or celebratory, attitude. Shit is incredibly complicated, but innocent people are afraid, a child was killed, a whole "attack on another country's soil is fine when we/our allies do it" thing is present, as is the possibility of escalation and the near guarantee of retaliation.

      But it's fine because it's in a country we don't like with mostly people we've categorized as bad guys. (And I'm not an expert, I don't claim to be , they could be all the worst guys, even the 8 year old. Some of the comments here are still in very poor taste.

      36 votes
      1. smoontjes
        Link Parent
        There are multiple comments in this thread that are either overly casual, something that you'd see said in a CoD lobby, or outright jokes. Completely tone deaf. So yeah I totally agree with you.

        There are multiple comments in this thread that are either overly casual, something that you'd see said in a CoD lobby, or outright jokes. Completely tone deaf. So yeah I totally agree with you.

        19 votes
      2. [11]
        Interesting
        Link Parent
        Hezbollah has repeatedly attacked Israeli soil over the past year. Last month, they attempted to launch hundreds or thousands of rockets in an attack that Israel foiled just half an hour before....

        Hezbollah has repeatedly attacked Israeli soil over the past year. Last month, they attempted to launch hundreds or thousands of rockets in an attack that Israel foiled just half an hour before.

        Thousands of rockets have been shot by Hezbollah over the course of the war, and the only reason Hezbollah hasn't killed far more people than this attack did is the billions of dollars Israel(unsustainably) spends on air defense. Even that defense isn't perfect, and if not for Israel's prompt action last month, the attack that was foiled would have killed many Israelis, including civilians, since many of the rockets Hezbollah uses aren't particularly accurate.

        This attack was strictly targeted at people carrying Hezbollah pagers, meaning militants and those they needed to communicate with, even if it wasn't 100% perfect in achieving that goal. By contrast, this escalation is part of a back and forth in part started by Hezbollah firing a poorly targeted missile that hit a play field and killed 12 children.

        Yes, celebrating harm is awful, but the military advantage brought by this attack relative to the number of non-target casualties is likely one of the highest on record. If this attack isn't acceptable, is there any method that Israel is permitted to offensively retaliate?

        30 votes
        1. DefinitelyNotAFae
          Link Parent
          I didn't, and won't, weigh in on Israel's right to use offensive force and if I want a geopolitical history lesson on this it won't be on any social media. I found the comments here being excited...

          I didn't, and won't, weigh in on Israel's right to use offensive force and if I want a geopolitical history lesson on this it won't be on any social media.

          I found the comments here being excited about the cool new way to maim and kill people in poor taste. Still do.

          I'm saying it's maiming and death, and you're asking me if it's really technically assault and murder. And that's not relevant to my opinion or point.

          Yes, celebrating harm is awful

          We agree.

          24 votes
        2. [5]
          Habituallytired
          Link Parent
          i'm so tired of people discussing how Israel is always in the wrong. They literally can't win socially even though they're responding to escalation of force. Yes A child died, but how many...

          i'm so tired of people discussing how Israel is always in the wrong. They literally can't win socially even though they're responding to escalation of force. Yes A child died, but how many children have been murdered in untargeted attacks?

          It's awful that there is warfare going on, and the Middle East can't seem to just live in peace and harmony, but no one seems to agree on who should live in peace on the land. It's been this way since at least the 1960's if not earlier, and it's getting worse and worse. It sucks, and unfortunately, none of us really understand unless we live in the region, what the toll really is on all of the people there.

          11 votes
          1. [4]
            DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            I'd like to be clear that that was not what this comment thread of this post was about.

            I'd like to be clear that that was not what this comment thread of this post was about.

            7 votes
            1. [3]
              Habituallytired
              Link Parent
              I do understand what your comment was about. It's just really upsetting to keep reading how nothing Israel does is the correct move, even when they do as much as they can to mitigate civilian...

              I do understand what your comment was about. It's just really upsetting to keep reading how nothing Israel does is the correct move, even when they do as much as they can to mitigate civilian casualties, while trying to protect their borders.

              8 votes
              1. [2]
                DefinitelyNotAFae
                Link Parent
                I guess I'm just frustrated that this is in this reply chain. It is perhaps possible that I don't think anyone could do anything right when it comes to war and violence. I understand feeling...

                I guess I'm just frustrated that this is in this reply chain. It is perhaps possible that I don't think anyone could do anything right when it comes to war and violence.

                I understand feeling frustrated because I am too

                6 votes
                1. Habituallytired
                  Link Parent
                  I don't like war either, and think it's all senseless violence for the egos of a few rich people.

                  I don't like war either, and think it's all senseless violence for the egos of a few rich people.

                  1 vote
        3. [4]
          Raspcoffee
          Link Parent
          While I feel like it's still too early to tell(fog of war is a major thing with these kind of operations when they just occured), the optics of the attack is basically in reverse. Due to how...

          Yes, celebrating harm is awful, but the military advantage brought by this attack relative to the number of non-target casualties is likely one of the highest on record. If this attack isn't acceptable, is there any method that Israel is permitted to offensively retaliate?

          While I feel like it's still too early to tell(fog of war is a major thing with these kind of operations when they just occured), the optics of the attack is basically in reverse. Due to how spread out it appears, and collateral damage thus also appears widespread, it's difficult for ordinary people to not feel like this.

          I think this was not a good move regardless of the practical objectives Israël has or has not achieved. In terms of international standing it is corroding even further when her allies are increasingly skeptical.

          3 votes
          1. [3]
            Interesting
            Link Parent
            I'm reminded again of our different media circles for what we see about this conflict. I am interested to see what data eventually comes out of the fog on the demographics of those injured in this...

            I'm reminded again of our different media circles for what we see about this conflict. I am interested to see what data eventually comes out of the fog on the demographics of those injured in this attack were.

            Where I will be disagree with you is that this worsened Israel's relations with other nations. I haven't seen any evidence of that. The only condemnations I've seen have been from countries or organizations that already reviled them anyway.

            10 votes
            1. [2]
              Raspcoffee
              Link Parent
              For the record, you appear to be correct from what I can see. I've been trying to get a diverse media picture of the events but it's mighty difficult. Not sure if I read wrong, got caught in...

              I haven't seen any evidence of that. The only condemnations I've seen have been from countries or organizations that already reviled them anyway.

              For the record, you appear to be correct from what I can see. I've been trying to get a diverse media picture of the events but it's mighty difficult. Not sure if I read wrong, got caught in propaganda or am just overwhelmed at the different perspectives. I was wrong on this matter it seems.

              Incidentally, I do hope this will end up having only or almost entirely Hezbollah. They are terrorists for all intents and purposes. This shouldn't matter for my arguments but I felt the need to state this explicitly given the political polarization of this conflict.

              2 votes
              1. Interesting
                Link Parent
                Yeah, purposely going looking for people whose viewpoints you often find abhorrent can be... rough. The reading I was doing on this topic basically killed the whole day for me, particularly since...

                Yeah, purposely going looking for people whose viewpoints you often find abhorrent can be... rough. The reading I was doing on this topic basically killed the whole day for me, particularly since I was scrolling through Twitter trying to find casualty videos, and twitter is a cesspit of people who are actual swastika-carrying Nazis.

                If you're interested in my preferred source, I typically click links from Times of Israel when I'm looking up an event. They're at the Israeli center to center-left. I will mention I don't typically read their opinion content (I'm rarely on the home page), and that anything marked as a blog is really a blog -- there are thousands of people who write those, and TOI doesn't really review them beyond vetting people before they can make an account.

                On Hezbollah, I appreciate the clarification; as part of the aforementioned cesspit, I've seen a disturbing number of claims on social media that they're nothing but a legitimate political party...

                7 votes
  18. [2]
    updawg
    Link
    @cfabbro maybe we should edit the title now that it's 2800 injured rather than "dozens?"

    @cfabbro maybe we should edit the title now that it's 2800 injured rather than "dozens?"

    7 votes
    1. cfabbro
      Link Parent
      Done. Changed it to APs new headline.

      Done. Changed it to APs new headline.

      5 votes
  19. [4]
    updawg
    Link
    /u/KapteinB's post made the same minute as mine: https://tildes.net/~news/1iw7/dozens_of_hezbollah_members_wounded_after_pagers_explode_in_lebanon
    3 votes
    1. [3]
      Deimos
      Link Parent
      I've removed that one and moved the comments over to this one.

      I've removed that one and moved the comments over to this one.

      19 votes
      1. [2]
        updawg
        Link Parent
        I didn't know that could be done so easily.

        I didn't know that could be done so easily.

        12 votes
        1. ThrowdoBaggins
          Link Parent
          When you’re the website owner and coder, I’m sure there’s all kinds of stuff you can do behind the scenes! I just wonder how much of it is manually editing links and addresses, versus whether...

          When you’re the website owner and coder, I’m sure there’s all kinds of stuff you can do behind the scenes! I just wonder how much of it is manually editing links and addresses, versus whether Deimos has already created a tool for this exact case

          11 votes