48
votes
The pork industry’s forced cannibalism, explained
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- Title
- A new investigation exposes the stomach-churning practice that goes into making your bacon
- Authors
- Kenny Torrella
- Published
- Aug 5 2023
- Word count
- 1667 words
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This thread is unusually hostile and showcases an important reason why people scoff at the concept of veganism/vegetarianism - you (as in, a hypothetical advocate against meat) cannot expect the world to "just" give up meat. It doesn't matter what your moral qualms about it are, this is just not an attainable goal when it's such an ingrained part of human culture.
Equating these horrific factory practices to all meat eating is disingenuous and makes people feel like no matter what they do (say, buying from a more ethical source) they're still made out to be villains. The faster the vegan/vegetarian movement divorces itself from trying to cut meat out of our lives and instead advocate for reducing consumption, the faster we will make a dent.
I don't have time to elaborate my thoughts further, but I just wanted to put this out there because this kind of rhetoric annoys me to no end.
I strongly endorse your comments. This thread is unusually hostile for Tildes.
It concerns me that some people are taking the high moral ground in quite an unhelpful manner.
I am also concerned that, with vegetarians making up less than 5% of the US population, there is obviously a large number of people who, as meat eaters, would probably be more open to listening to an argument that is persuasive rather than scolding in tone.
Reducing meat consumption is a beneficial first step, and it is more realistic and achievable for many.
Let's celebrate these good and useful initial behaviour changes, at the same time as putting pressure on producers to adopt more humane production methods.
From the other side here I see roughly half of responses being very mild, one comment that could possibly be construed as hostile or offensive, and the other half is people complaining about being offended or responding to those who are talking about being offended by the comments being made by vegetarians and vegans.
I don’t think anyone here is trying to offend anyone. Not even the person who wrote that potentially offensive post I mentioned earlier.
What we all need to keep in mind that food is culture and has a lot of emotion attached to it. What you are hearing from the veg crowd is from the people who have strong feelings towards the treatment of these animals, just as the strong feelings you are hearing from the meat eaters come from hearing things that attack a cultural part of themselves. Nobody is being attacked personally but they are feeling as if they are because the behavior that is being called out is so deeply ingrained.
Imagine if it were something else like sleeping on a mattress that was being called out. You’d probably skip right into calling them crazy. And even if they showed you peer reviewed studies showing that it causes health problems, that so and so many people die every year making them, that mattress production was controlled by a handful of companies with tremendous political power, you’d probably still continue sleeping on mattresses.
I agree this thread is unusually hostile, but I see the hostility originating from the opposite direction than you might. It's hard to look at what goes on in the meat industry. It's uncomfortable. Most people feel things they'd rather not, so there is a large temptation (not even consciously or intentionally) to apply some of our feelings to the messenger talking about it.
It takes no one with bad intent for that to happen. Statements merely asking people to reflect on contradictions between action and belief can become seen as deeply personal attacks. The result is harsh claims directed back; that someone is just trying to shame them or be morally superior when that's not their intent
To respond to some of the other claims, it's worth noting that factory farming is the vast vast majority. Even with labels like "free-range", they are extremely likely to come from factory farms. [1] In the US it represents well over 99% of animal agriculture as per the article here from earlier
Globally the picture is quite similar at around 90%. [2] Keep in mind that this includes lower-income countries that produce at lower quantities/densities due to lower consumption. Higher-income countries are going to be even higher
The kinds of consumption reductions you need to make anything but factory farming exist are likely much higher than you may think. For instance, the US would need a 4x reduction in beef consumption just to use grass-fed only production just to have enough land to do it. That'd also come away with 8% higher methane emissions due to longer grazing times and kill ~23 million more cattle due to lower slaughter weights [3]. If we wanted to get rid of those other impacts, we'd need further reductions.
Advocacy for reductions alone is unlikely to achieve that level of drop. Whatever position is being advocated will likely be compromised on. If one compromises from a position of compromise, it's not likely to get very far. If one advocates for a stronger position, you're more likely to see the compromise position be a large reduction rather than something like a say 5% reduction
[1] Free-range just requires technically having access to the outside light which companies will interpret to just mean "they can have the tiniest sliver with no roof but everything can still be extremely crowded". Here's one Tyson employee calling the "free range" label meaningless. Even at that those loose requirements aren't even followed all the time. Here's one example of a "certified free range " operation that turned out to not be free range at all, here's another, another, and so on
[2] https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/global-animal-farming-estimates
[3] https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aad401
I think as with most things, the loudest talkers don't represent the majority. I do agree that a lot of vegans come off as just straight up mean people, but it is just as frustrating to see so many people in the "I know factory farming is wrong, but vegans are pushy so I won't do anything to change" boat. We know the absolute horrors of the meat industry and the damage factory farming does to the environment, but then a lot of the rhetoric seem to revolve around blaming vegans for the slow adoption of plant based diets.
In all honesty, I think that loud minority of vegans suck with their communication skills, but they aren't wrong. Even though the narrative in the news continues to claim plant based diets are "on the rise", it hasn't stopped the meat industry from growing, regardless of what vegetarians/vegans do.. As a long time vegetarian, I try not to be one of those people, but it can be an extremely frustrating thing to watch, to put it lightely.
There is a problem with the advice to reduce meat consumption rather than ending it. Knowing how much you’ve eaten is very difficult. When a person succeeds at one point, they frequently subconsciously reward themselves later on, often without consciously realizing it. It’s part of why dieting is so hard. If everyone agreed to reducing their consumption by 10%, it would likely result in significantly less than a 10% reduction. There are some people who avoid eating meat aside from once or twice a week, and that’s commendable, but most people who claim to reduce their meat intake are not going to be nearly so motivated not successful.
All threads about veganism are hostile, on all websites, from all sides. In fact, aS a vEgAn, I avoided participating until now because I don't enjoy needless conflict, and I agree with you that it is not productive. If anything, it is counterproductive. The strangest thing about all of this, is that I believe vegans actually harm animals by portraying ethical diets/lifestyles as all or nothing scenarios. It's really a shame.
Luckily, much of the movement is doing this. Yes, I think if you were talk to individual vegans in your area (or a thread like this,) you will probably find a good number of holier-than-thou, purist vegans, but if you checked up on what some local advocacy groups were doing, you'd likely find a lot of promotion of Meatless Mondays and gentle encouragement towards making a few dietary/lifestyle changes. Of course, there are the extreme advocacy groups who stand on street corners and yell at people about murder, but at least in my area, those groups are far less active and common than the more reasonable, level-headed organizations. Most are trying hard to promote reduction of animal product consumption and make it appealing to people who aren't interested in full veganism.
There is also the age old problem of angry voices being the loudest. Like I mentioned, I usually skip participating in online discussions about veganism, even though I've been vegan for a decade and have lots of reasonable thoughts on how "veg-curious" people could realistically eat less meat. I am only participating here because Tildes usually allows me to have reasonable discussions, and I really thought your comment was valuable. (I was hoping to find more productive discussions when I came back to check on this thread, but oh well. It definitely could be worse.)
Every thread about veganism contains vegans who frustrate me because I feel they're harming the movement, non-vegans who throw around really cruel personal insults about people like me, and veg-curious people who get rude comments from both sides. It's just bleak. I wouldn't be surprised if many vegans like me simply decline to participate. It's more likely you'll see us quietly participating in bland threads about people wanting tips to incorporate more beans in their diet or looking for a cruelty-free sunscreen - not threads about animal slaughter or pig cannibalism, encouraging people to "go vegan."
100% agree. This industry is more massive than most people realize. It is on the scale of big oil in many respects and it is run much the same as any major commodity market. People rail against Exxon, Haliburton, Shell. The corp I work for by itself is twice as large as those three companies combined.
All that to say; we have the challenge of changing dietary habits but also a massive industrial complex that remains hidden for the most part except for occasional articles like this. It isn't just "choose to eat better."
It genuinely upsets me how many people will read this, act surprised and disgusted, and go right back to eating meat. Have some principles. Either accept this and be comfortable with it, or stop eating meat. At least I can't waste my time arguing with a carnist who openly doesn't care about the suffering they cause.
META // It's unfair to pick on a specific comment since there are several bad ones in the thread, but I feel like this is the worst of the lot… can you not be so openly hostile by generalizing a bunch of people, some of which will be in this thread? Doubly so when you're outright saying you "will not engage".
You're presenting your post as an absolute, claiming moral superiority and saying you will not engage. This isn't what Tildes is about. It's equivalent to posting something like "I'm right about X and fuck anyone who disagrees. Bye!" -- Basically, a throwaway comment that cannot be interacted with and dismisses the opinions of some people here. Even a simple "I don't understand people who … Can anyone chime in?" at least engages conversation instead of dismissing it.
I get that there are topics where this is warranted. Swap "eating meat" with "murdering people" or something. But also, those are not controversial positions, where you will engage people here who disagree with you. And if you think of one that is… then my comment applies! For example, I'm as anti-gun as it goes, but swap to "owning guns" and I would be saying the same thing.
Please work with us to keep the atmosphere better. Remember the human.
I think that's a misinterpretation of what they are saying. They aren't saying they won't debate/argue with people, instead they are saying that it feels frustrating because they feel often like they're wasting their time doing so. That they're frustrated when people agree about its horror but also who won't agree to do anything about it (which they are saying feels like time wasted). That's what more what they are getting at
They're okay with it mate, That's the sad reality of things. We humans are fantastic at rationalises serious levels of bullshit like this so we don't thave to think about it.
I think that's the key - mental bandwidth.
People can only keep so much expendable bandwidth on things of their choosing, otherwise the world takes a lot of the bandwidth one has for living.
I think a lot of the people who are surprised and disgusted, then let it fade into the back of their head might, in an ideal world, change their actions.
But in the non-ideal world, so many things require passive acceptance or else risk burning through the minimal bandwidth they have that such passivity becomes a necessary evil that we apply too liberally.
I know of an interesting example that bucks this trend - pop culture usually associates veganism with white liberals, but the black vegan movement is rapidly gaining momentum in a population that has embraced it in spite of the lack of popular culture consciousness.
When a group makes strides to enable such choices, the bandwidth of such ideas becomes negligible. Want a burger and fries? Slutty Vegan is a fast food vegan burger joint I love that requires no extra bandwidth - it's just good.
When the choice becomes easier and minimal bandwidth, I understand the shaming, but I won't fault anyone for eating meat out of a cultural indifference when it's a currently expensive choice mentally and financially.
You're right of course, I am simply being glib and really hard on people. Most folks are struggling to get by so thinking about this stuff just doesn't occur to them too much.
We get decent Plant Burgers in the UK now and probably for the same price as a Beef Burger! Which is wonderful. But it's the "How to make stuff with just veggies" that a lot of folks struggle with at home.
I really love the idea of mental bandwidth you got there.
For some poll stats here:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53787329
Side note: I should note I cut out a mention (using a [...]) of one of the polls the article said had a similar breakdown to the Vegetarian Resource Group because I couldn't find the actual stat they cite mentioned in the linked poll. I think the BBC might have linked to the wrong poll? Everything else seems to check out, so still a good article overall
Of all the complaints about veganism, that one (that it's for stuck-up white people,) often bothers me the most.
Black soul food is a staple of vegan cuisine at this point. Harlem has some of the best vegan restaurants in all of NYC. In the Midwest where I live, a huge, disproportionate percentage of the volunteers I've worked with in vegan/veg groups have been people of color, including leadership. All of the traditional (sometimes ancient) cuisines that include vegan/vegetarian food by default are cuisines of people of color.
There is a lot to be said about privilege here (primarily, time to cook and access to grocery stores,) but I really wish we could drop the whole "white people" criticism of veganism. At any other time, I take no issue with pointing out the audacity of white people, but in this situation it just feels so dismissive of all the vegan and vegetarian people of color who are working hard to help their communities eat less meat. Black communities especially have found veganism to be a helpful movement to encourage healthier eating and community agriculture, a deeply important goal for them, considering the health issues/healthcare discrimination and the failures of our food distribution system that black communities face.
Here's a great article that covers many of the points I brought up above, for anyone interested in learning more and seeing some statistics related to it.
I respect that this is an issue that means a lot and is very close to your heart, and I understand that you are upset. However, this kind of attitude puts up an enormous wall. As an omnivore (or "carnist", if you like) I also wouldn't waste my time trying to sustain any kind of meaningful discussion with someone making comments like this.
Others have said it better than me, but you aren't going to successfully shame everyone into going vegetarian or vegan. If you have no interest in sparking positive change and are just here to vent and look down on meat eaters then that's an entirely different story and I hope you've found some peace and fulfilment in that.
If you can’t give up meat entirely, switch to pure beef. Cows have a significantly better life than pigs before they’re sent to the feedlots. Further, the meat gained from murdering one cow would require the slaughter of hundreds of chickens (who are somehow treated worse than the pigs).
Isn't beef notoriously bad because of the greenhouse gas emissions? I'll confess I don't have the facts to hand but it's for sure been drilled into me that reducing red meat consumption is critical from an environmental perspective.
It is indeed significantly higher in GHG emissions because ruminants produce large volumes of methane from digestion
https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local/
Didn't know it was that high, but not surprised. I'm on a veg journey at the moment and these articles are undeniably influencing me if I think on it.
Highly recommend watching Dominion (2018), it pushed me over that line forever. As somebody here said, once you know how it is then it's up to you to either be ok with the industry and support it, or just go vegan.
Will do and thanks.
For anyone curious, you can watch it at watchdominion.org. Certainly a very eye-opening documentary
As the type of person getting roasted in this comment section (reading the article but continuing to eat meat) I feel like maybe it would be good for me to share my side. I will start off by saying I do not have a moral position. I don't pretend to be in the right, or that my decision to eat meat is somehow offset by my other beliefs.
I do not have any opposition to slaughtering and eating animals. I feel it's a resource that is available to us and has been an important part of our survival for a very long time. To me, the idea of getting the majority of humans to give up meat seems like an absolute pipe dream and I don't really see how that would be realistic without government intervention (for example, outlawing pork production and import).
With that being said, I am not okay with the practices discussed in the article. The scenes are horrific and I am extremely disappointed that these practices appear to be common in the industry. It would be convenient to say that these are just "bad apples" as the article puts it, but evidently that is not the case. To me, that's were the problem lies.
If I am not morally opposed to eating meat, but I am morally opposed to animal cruelty (the practices in question are absolutely acts of animal cruelty), what are my options? I love meat and do not have any intentions of giving it up for the long term. If I had to slaughter my own animals I would (and have), but that's not really realistic in a lot of situations. Lab grown meat is very interesting to me and I'm willing to try it out once it becomes readily available, but I've never seen it in my super market.
Am I a bad person for my position? Perhaps, I won't really claim otherwise. Is there cognitive dissonance? Ya, I think so. I think that my position is likely a lot closer to the average person though, where animals can be eaten, but abusing them is bad. My question is, what would be the most effective strategy for eliminating the cruelty from this process? Are there local coops that have well monitored practices? Does sticking to smaller operations make this problem moot? Discussions like that might be more effective for reducing the primary issue here, animal abuse.
Encouraging conscientious consumption seems like it could make a world of a difference here, and in many other areas as well. If anyone has recommendations in that vein they would be greatly appreciated. If you feel that saying it's okay to kill animals but not abuse them in an oxymoron, that's fair. Again, I don't claim to have a moral position. I understand why it could upsetting though.
I chose not to talk about dietary restrictions because I feel like it's a bit of a cop out. Of course if someone physically needs to eat meet, they should. I don't think maybe people will refute that. I can't imagine there is a very significant portion of the population that falls into that category though, so it feels like a much weaker argument than "I like it and don't want to stop eating it". The later may not be as "good" of an idea, but it's honest, at least for me.
You claimed not to have a moral position, but contradict yourself by saying
If you're actually morally opposed to animal cruelty, you would act in a way that doesn't contribute to it. It seems like you want credit for being theoretically against the torture of animals, but aren't willing to do much to prevent it?
Again, you're the one who has claimed to be morally opposed to animal cruelty, why is it on other people to encourage you to live your own stated values? There's SO MUCH information available on the subject, you'd think someone would put some effort into living according to their own stated moral code.
TL;DR for the title:
The article itself goes into more depth about all the horrific things in the pork industry such as these
It sounds like this is an "optimal" way to build herd immunity in pig farms. The breeding pigs are exposed to the virus from the intestines and feces of the diseased culled piglets, the sows develop antibodies, and these antibodies can be transferred in the milk to piglets, helping build immune systems. Referenced from here: https://www.nationalhogfarmer.com/farming-business-management/exposing-sows-to-pedv-to-build-herd-immunity
I put "optimal" in quotes because the entire reason this process is likely necessary is because of the inhumane and unsanitary factory farm conditions these pigs are raised in. This technique seems like a capitalistic min-maxed strategy to inhumane conditions. "Oh, the factory-farmed pigs are getting sick because of being crammed in tiny dirty crates in filthy warehouses for their entire lives? Looks like we can take the free dead piglets and feces and feed them back to the pigs to solve this problem. Cost effective!" Cruel problems being given cruel solutions.
Though even at that it's hardly even "optimal", the article notes it still is risky and introduces other diseases that you don't mean to. I would also wonder about the risk of getting prion diseases because doing this exact practice for cattle is mainly how mad cow disease comes about
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovine_spongiform_encephalopathy
Though I should mention that there is also atypical mad cow disease where it shows up randomly but that isn't the main way it comes about
I'm gonna take that summary as a clue that I should probably avoid reading the rest of the article to avoid getting even more sick. 😟
Stuff like this is why I hardly eat pork any more. If I do buy some I try to source from somewhere that has some source of welfare indication. This can often be quite expensive and for pork in particular for some reason it is hard to find with welfare labels compared to chicken and beef.
It's honestly easier to just cut meat out than have to trust self-regulating farms if I'm honest.
This is a really valid point. One has to understand the human toll factory farming exacts as well. It's an ugly industry from the ground up. This time of year you'll see all the happy farmers and 4H kids at the state fairs on your local news broadcasts. Yeah, that the face of PR within the industry.
Try stepping foot onto a factory farm for poultry, pork or beef. Not gonna happen. They do not want you to see, hear or smell what happens there.
People need to think about that next time they visit the store and see all the neatly packaged bits of what was once a live being. How that got there and got that way, and who had to do their job to make that happen, it's a road of suffering right up until you take a bite.
It’s also worth mentioning the usually extremely exploitative conditions of farms growing plants too. Of course it’s much harder to avoid this unless you have the space, time and skill to grow all your own fruit and veg, but I think it’s still important to acknowledge and be aware of. (And of course this is also true of basically anything we buy but that’s getting even more off topic).
And then you can get into the whole mess of why these farms are exploitative, which is that the supermarkets won’t pay much for the product, and they have to keep prices low because otherwise people can’t afford to buy it, and people can’t afford to buy it because wages haven’t grown meaningfully in decades, and etc etc etc.
Anyway now I’ve depressed myself (and gone way off topic) so I’ll stop
While plant farms still aren't always great for workers, there is still plenty of harm unique to meat production that we'd be able to entirely remove.
For instance, inherent to animal farming that isn't really there for crop farming: giving PTSD to slaughterhouse workers
For an anecdote from a worker
For a denser but more academic/scientific source
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/15248380211030243
Injury rates are also higher even compared to other dangerous injuries
https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/09/04/when-were-dead-and-buried-our-bones-will-keep-hurting/workers-rights-under-threat
I want to make clear that I wasn’t disagreeing with any of this or trying to derail the convo, I was just trying to add to it!
I think that is well in the realm of the topic, and feeds into the profit driven scenarios our food is involved with. If it's damaging to animals or workers at said vegetable farms then it's indeed problematic.
I've worked in the swine industry literally my whole life, and I've worked in a pig barn probably 8 of the last 10 years.
I've literally never once heard of the "feedback" process this article claims is widespread and used in most factory farms. At the very least, our barns (and all the pig barns I know of) are set up to feed pigs dry feed composed almost entirely of grains. So throwing anything wet into the feed mix isn't going to flow through the feed distribution system anyway.
Another thing that I believe the general public doesn't quite understand is that...the animals are a product, not pets. I would've thought this goes without saying but of course pig farmers want a 100% healthy to market rate but the sad truth is that animals are going to get sick or injured independent of how many preventative measures you take. When that happens, it's much more humane to euthanize the animal than to allow it to continue to suffer.
This article really reads like a hit piece on the animal industry as a whole.
Perhaps not in the area you are (maybe the diseases circulating there have sufficient vaccines at the moment?), but there are plenty of articles out there talking about how it's been in widespread use over the past decades.
There's someone who even wrote an entire PhD thesis on it:
https://dr.lib.iastate.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/f250c158-3e9a-4059-b78d-87bd76bf566a/content
Here's another article looking at another timeframe where it was common in the US
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168170220301209
I'm not an expert with a relevant degree and research experience, BUT I read that pigs are smarter than dogs.
Can we stop torturing them in factory farms and slaughter houses?
It has been decades, can we retire the tired old joke of chanting "bacon!" which is likely now the creation of some soulless marketing person?
I'm going to be cordial here. These arguments show up all the time, so it can be tough to approach each one with the same level of patience -- but I recognize that's because of my own familiarity with the conversation, and you might be new to it.
Giving up meat, for most of the developed world, is one of the easiest changes to make, and something you are completely in control of. And compared to other climate-focused lifestyle changes you might make, has one of the largest impacts (not including the ethical, health, etc. implications). Many of us are unhappy with aspects of our life that we're not in control of, but our diet is.
This is not an argument. Giving up meat does not mean you are done caring about the world or any other issue. You do not have to suddenly become apolitical once you've given up meat. You can support multiple causes.
I think it's an incredible disservice to your morals to be horrified at industrial practices, while gleefully supporting/paying for their services. And regulation will not make meat production ethical -- ever. Their lives are being cut short without their consent, for your consumption. There are dystopian movies about societies that cull their members at a certain, predetermined age, with the intent of horrifying you. That's the reality for billions of animals.
Your consumption directly affects me. Where did Avian Flu come from? Swine Flu? (allegedly) Covid-19? (possibly) the 1918 influenza?
These factory farmsFactory farms and the meat industry as a whole are breeding grounds for disease. I am morally consistent, so my horror at factory farming affects my actions -- and will not stop informing others.You have not seriously tried making meals without meat. Not every meal needs to be gourmet, or include some fancy designer mock-meat. Many vegan meals are cheap, easy, and quick to make. Claiming you can't be vegan because of ADHD is silly.
It just sounds like you don't want to do anything. You don't want to lift a finger (except every few years to vote), and you want others to make your decisions for you.
You alone know your morals. If someone online got snippy with you, and that was enough for you to continue supporting a practice you've admitted is horrific, then only you can live with that.
There does not appear to be any credible evidence suggesting Covid-19 is related in any way to factory farming, and such a claim, even with 'possibly' added to it, seems as though it could be interpreted as medical misinformation in service of political causes.
I would hope that arguments about meat could be made without resorting to such claims, and that communities that would rightly not tolerate such claims in support of other political causes would not tolerate them here.
One theory is that the virus emerged from a wet-market, or open-air seafood market -- this is what I was referring to. Sorry, not "factory farming", but a direct product of the meat industry. I've updated my comment so as not to "resort to creating medical misinformation in service of political causes".
Personally, this would be an enormous barrier to veganism for me. Food is a big passion of mine and I despise the times that I have to eat something mediocre. I say this as somebody who cooks plenty of vegetarian meals and has had a great time challenging myself to make vegan versions of conventional animal product based dishes (lately I've been watching Sauce Stache's videos avidly and bought some of the faux bones he recommended to make some "chikn" drumsticks on the BBQ this year).
I've generally found, with a few exceptions, that if I want to make something vegan that's equally as tasty and satisfying then it requires a significantly higher investment of my time than the animal product alternative. I don't always have that kind of time and I am not prepared to spend such a huge chunk of my life eating meh food. Hopefully my part time veganism is considered a partial victory, until we see commercially viable lab grown meat (which I actively invest in) it's the best I can do.
Literal whataboutism. You actually said "but what about" in the quote.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Why? You say you dislike Christianity, so I suppose you base your ethics on some kind of philosophy. What's the deeper ethical justification for this principle?
Frankly, I think (in the modern context, at least) it's a thought-terminating cliche that only gets applied when convenient, usually as a defense mechanism. If you take it to its extreme, it suggests that no one can ever criticize anyone for any moral failing, since no one is perfect. I can't accept such a principle, and I can't imagine anyone who would.
If I can prove to you that I'm exerting significant effort to improve the Healthcare and wealth inequality situations, then will you accept my shaming you for eating meat? If not, then it's not a philosophical stance, it's simply an attempt to deflect.
I just wanted to point out the logical flaw there, I actually have no desire to shame you - although I'll happily share some delicious, easy vegetarian recipes. I'm an extremely lazy cook, they're guaranteed to be simple.
I generally agree with your point about not shaming people for eating meat, but I don’t understand this bit:
I don’t see how they are related.
They're not, directly. The author is deriding the shame that he or she feels is imposed by vegetarians or vegans who declare themselves to be superior due to their choice to abstain from meat. In other words, the author is saying that vegans and vegetarians may have a claim to feel morally superior when it comes to animal cruelty, but they don't have the same claim to moral superiority when it comes to other veins of life and politics (*It is sad that even our dietary choices are political these days).
I'm not sure that I agree with the author's derision of the shame. We should feel bad about the source and handling of our meat. Shame is a powerful motivator for change, and it deserves to be used.
Also, we shouldn't allow a moral superiority in one aspect of our lives excuse a moral failing in others.
I try to reduce consumption too, or at least select lower impact options (chicken vs. red meats for example). Often just rice and veggie stir fry is good enough for dinner. It's genuinely difficult for some of us to stop entirely though, especially if meats were dietary cornerstone during formative years.
Eliminating animal product usage entirely is even harder, with how that entails forever cutting oneself off from a huge percentage of dishes from nearly every culture or making do with (sometimes literally) crummy substitutes. Regardless of how good some vegan dishes may be, they can't fill the hole that's left behind. It feels almost like having four of your box of eight crayons taken away after having colored with all eight for all your life.
So similarly, I have no issue with those who can do it and offer them kudos, but it's not something that's practical for everybody.
Hey, thanks for writing a sincere comment that is inquisitive to the situation! I'm not the person you responded to, but I will admit I was hesitant to post on this thread as someone who still eats meat due to being shamed or attacked. Someone else mentioned they don't want to waste their time with a carnist which feels like such a black and thinking of this topic.
There's a large portion of people who are just not willing to give up meat. Yes, some of these folks fit the negative sterotype (Real men eat RED meat and don't need vegetables; I have served people like this, they exist), but at the same time there is an active movement to reduce meat consumption. I think absolutist thinking harms the movement because it comes across as gate-keeping when instead we should be celebrating that more people are attempting to reduce their consumption.
To eat a purely vegetarian or vegan diet requires time and dedication that not everyone has. While there are some tasty, low-effort vegetarian/vegan meals like dal or air frying some tofu, they are a harder sale for a typical meat eater. Quicker alternatives are expensive and aren't exactly healthy either, and depending on the diet Vitamin B12 or Iron deficiencies require decent knowledge to manage.
I'm similar to @daychilde, where I and my husband are actively reducing our meat intake. We have basically eliminated all red meat (with the exception of venison due to having a reputable source) and eat a vegetarian/vegan meal often for lunch and will have a meatless dinner 2-3 times during the week. Whatever meat I do buy, I try to buy the most humanely raised and treat it like the luxury it once was. For some people this isn't good enough and leads to some mean commentary, despite the fact that we have reduced our meat consumption by like 50-75%. I've learned how to cook tofu well because of reducing meat in our diets and have come to genuinely enjoy it!
I've done a vegan challenge in the past and actually really enjoyed the foods it introduced me too! But I'm also a very busy person and was struggling to have the time to cook meals that fit those dietary restrictions while also meeting my nutritional needs; it made my migraines worse unfortunately. I know part of it was a failing on me to manage my time better, but when you're crunched from life and work it's a challenge.
Growing up in the rural midwest US I did kill plenty of the animals that I ended up eating. Mostly chickens and pigs. I've cut back on meat a lot in general the past few years both for health and moral reasons. Seeing stuff like this always upsets me. Sure I killed the animals in the end, but we treated them decent up to that point.
I don't really see how the meat industries can keep up without stuff like this though so finally just had to call it quits now that I don't have farmland. Idk how we can convince most people though. In Missouri BBQ/smoked meats are the lifeblood and I know many people that would literally kill a human before they would give up meat, as sad as that sounds.
I don't think there's anything unethical about normal farming and hunting, but the industrialization animals as a mass produced commodity, and all the subsidies pushing it to even crazier heights of "efficiency", is what leads to these kind of twisted practices.
Meat should not be as cheap as it is, given the real-world resources it requires. I think the best line of attack to undermine the industry would be addressing those corn, meat and dairy subsidies. It's not just cruel and inhumane, it's unsustainable.
I’ve been trying to integrate vegan options into my diet in order to diversify and at least reduce the amount of meat I eat.
My personal goal is to remove meat from at least two of three meals a day, unless I’m working off leftovers.
Unfortunately unethical industrial farming is now the norm in the US; you have to go way out of your way (and pay a lot more) to buy ethically farmed meat. Even if the consumer will is there, the state of meat labeling is such a mess that it would be difficult for those who want to buy more ethically raised meat to even identify it.
Subsidies might contribute to the problem, but it seems obvious the root cause is our rotten economic system. A system that turns basic necessities (food, water, shelter) into commodities, the supply and availability of which are regularly manipulated or even restricted for the profit of an elite few, is a sick system. It results in so many problems, like creating a race to the bottom where the living beings (both the animals themselves and the underpaid humans working in the factory farming system) involved in the production of meat are allowed to be brutalized for profit.