Make smaller cars then. If anything it got worse over time because all cars are now at least cross overs if not outright SUVs. The article posits it like it's a surprise but it never was. I really...
Make smaller cars then. If anything it got worse over time because all cars are now at least cross overs if not outright SUVs.
The article posits it like it's a surprise but it never was. I really think that if you didn't see instant torque destroying your tyres then this is on yourself.
I'm sorry, I don't have a lot of sympathy for self inflicted problems like tyre wear especially when it comes with the added "benefit" of throwing up far more particulates and becomes a problem for me and others too.
You don't have to drive your Tesla like you stole it, and you probably don't need a Volvo XC90 or larger within city limits (or at all really).
Weight has a lot to do with it too. The Model 3 and Toyota Corolla are nearly the same size, but the Model 3 is nearly 4000 lbs while a Corolla is only about 3000 lbs. That 30% increase for the...
Weight has a lot to do with it too. The Model 3 and Toyota Corolla are nearly the same size, but the Model 3 is nearly 4000 lbs while a Corolla is only about 3000 lbs. That 30% increase for the same footprint vehicle wears a lot on tires. But yeah, at least for stuff within a driver's control, driving style can certainly help. Tesla drivers near me have been noticeably asshole-ish in their driving.
The Corolla really isn't the right comparison. It is much smaller (width and length) than the Model 3. Comparing with something of similar size (an Audi A5) and it's much closer....
The Corolla really isn't the right comparison. It is much smaller (width and length) than the Model 3. Comparing with something of similar size (an Audi A5) and it's much closer.
The Corolla is 6cm shorter, 7cm narrower, and less than 1cm less tall than the Model 3. It's smaller, but I would strongly contest calling it "much" smaller. The Camry—a car which is nineteen...
The Camry—a car which is nineteen centimeters longer than the Model 3—is still almost a hundred kilograms lighter.
The A5 is another 6cm longer than the Model 3. If it's an appropriate comparison, the Corolla certainly is, too; and it's still more than a hundred kilos lighter than the Tesla, and if anything, that's an argument that the A5 is also too heavy.
https://www.iseecars.com/compare/toyota-corolla-se-vs-tesla-model_3-base 2024 Corolla is 11 inches less wide and a little over 2 inches less long as compared to a 2024 Tesla. (that's 28cm less...
I'm not sure that iseecars.com is sourcing the right data in that comparison. This data source page is showing the same width of 70.1" on the Toyota Corolla with and without mirrors, which...
I'm not sure that iseecars.com is sourcing the right data in that comparison. This data source page is showing the same width of 70.1" on the Toyota Corolla with and without mirrors, which obviously can't be correct. They do have both separate metrics for the Model 3 which shows a width of 72.8" without mirrors and 82.2" with. This Reddit thread claims 83" of width on the Corolla with mirrors, but they don't seem to publish that stat on specification sites. But yeah, iseecars is obviously not comparing the same measurements for width between those two vehicles.
Same in my area, I avoid them like the plague. They are aggressive and dangerous to be around, weaving in and out, passing on right, flooring it at every light and stop sign. I would say 7 out of...
Tesla drivers near me have been noticeably asshole-ish in their driving.
Same in my area, I avoid them like the plague. They are aggressive and dangerous to be around, weaving in and out, passing on right, flooring it at every light and stop sign. I would say 7 out of 10 drive like that, the others are normal or slow AF.
And on that note, can you even trust any of them with all the software issues and poor controls design? I give them a wide berth.
Absolutely. We need some more small EV options. Think electrified versions of the Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, or Scion xB, none of which should be all that heavy or need to be torque monsters.
Absolutely. We need some more small EV options. Think electrified versions of the Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, or Scion xB, none of which should be all that heavy or need to be torque monsters.
Sadly. I believe there’s still a demand though, because Fits for example fetch a premium in the used market in my area compared to larger still-in-production cars of the same vintage.
Sadly. I believe there’s still a demand though, because Fits for example fetch a premium in the used market in my area compared to larger still-in-production cars of the same vintage.
Oh, there's a ton of demand. I would've bought a smaller car but there's nothing on the market outside Hyundai/Kia and they burned me (HA) on resale value with all those problems.
Oh, there's a ton of demand. I would've bought a smaller car but there's nothing on the market outside Hyundai/Kia and they burned me (HA) on resale value with all those problems.
Not an EV, but I enjoyed my (kinetic) hybrid Honda CR-Z. It was released as a 2-seat in the US, but somehow had a backseat in the UK. How anyone could fit behind the front seats is a mystery to me.
Not an EV, but I enjoyed my (kinetic) hybrid Honda CR-Z. It was released as a 2-seat in the US, but somehow had a backseat in the UK. How anyone could fit behind the front seats is a mystery to me.
I believe part of the issue revolves around the point that EV's are also denser than ICE cars. Those large batteries have many explicit and implicit costs.
I believe part of the issue revolves around the point that EV's are also denser than ICE cars. Those large batteries have many explicit and implicit costs.
Not everyone understands the instant torque thing. Just because it may seem like common sense to you does not mean other people were taught it like you were.
Not everyone understands the instant torque thing. Just because it may seem like common sense to you does not mean other people were taught it like you were.
This is such a well propagated idea though. EVs are part of the national news, not some obscure online bulletin board. I remember reading about the front tyres of the VW Golf GTE degrading faster...
This is such a well propagated idea though. EVs are part of the national news, not some obscure online bulletin board.
I remember reading about the front tyres of the VW Golf GTE degrading faster than normal back when the car was released in 2015. Same with the Outlander. And those are hybrids!
I’ve seen this critique of “EVs” a few times now, however the underlying issue isn’t necessarily the propulsion system, but rather the Torque and HP that some of these cars put out. If you trade...
I’ve seen this critique of “EVs” a few times now, however the underlying issue isn’t necessarily the propulsion system, but rather the Torque and HP that some of these cars put out. If you trade in an economy car for a sports car, you’re going to wear down tires a lot faster. You’ll also need more expensive tires and your driving habits may become more aggressive. In my experience I’m changing tires LESS frequently on the Tesla model 3 than I did on my prior ICE sports cars (BMW M3, Nissan 370Z).
There’s no reason your driving habits need to be more aggressive. I think lead footed driving is just a general bad habit we need to train people out of. It’s not even comfortable being in the...
There’s no reason your driving habits need to be more aggressive. I think lead footed driving is just a general bad habit we need to train people out of. It’s not even comfortable being in the passenger seat when people drive like that. Keep acceleration and braking smooth. There’s no reason to be so herky jerky.
My passengers almost never get nauseous while riding in my car for that exact reason. Actually obeying the recommended turning speeds on those yellow signs for bends in the road also does wonders....
My passengers almost never get nauseous while riding in my car for that exact reason. Actually obeying the recommended turning speeds on those yellow signs for bends in the road also does wonders.
Pro tip to readers: Look as far in the distance as you can. If you see a red light, let off the accelerator immediately. Start a gentle brake to drop about 10mph from what you were doing, and then coast to the light. I've found that once I've learned the typical traffic and light cycle, adjusting the amount of braking, it'll mean I might be driving 35mph on a 50 mph stretch of road, but I'm also not constantly stopping at the red lights and slamming on the gas to get to 50mph. It's exceptionally fun passing people who aren't doing this, who get pissed that I'm going 35, pass me, then immediately slam on the brakes while I coast past again because I avoided the rubberbanding from the stop/start.
Beyond just having a smoother ride, it'll also save you a ton of gas/electricity. Acceleration takes a lot more gas than maintaining speed.
The new Dodge EV apparently simulates gear shifts. While I find that to be really fucking stupid, I wonder if maybe things like that which give people the sense of “LOOK AT ME! AHMA GOING VROOM...
The new Dodge EV apparently simulates gear shifts. While I find that to be really fucking stupid, I wonder if maybe things like that which give people the sense of “LOOK AT ME! AHMA GOING VROOM VROOM!” without necessarily going that fast might end up being safer and less wasteful.
The “slow car fast” ethos really should get more attention in the car world. The top-line performance is completely irrelevant for 90% of driving cases and enabling it just encourages unsafe driving and unneeded wear on the car and infrastructure. Make the cars fun to drive at legal speeds and we’ll all be better off.
"virtual gears" are very much a good thing in my book. When you shift into drive it should default to something with a gentle acceleration curve to encourage safe driving habits and efficient use...
"virtual gears" are very much a good thing in my book. When you shift into drive it should default to something with a gentle acceleration curve to encourage safe driving habits and efficient use of energy.
The thing I dislike about my Bolt is that even though it does have a faster "sport mode" available to it, the basic Drive mode still has insane acceleration. On average I am only using the first 3 centimeters of throw on the accelerator pedal.
Those would be functional changes to the driving dynamics and actually cool. Though I’m not sure I’d have much use for granularity beyond “city” and “highway” driving. The Dodge just makes the...
Those would be functional changes to the driving dynamics and actually cool. Though I’m not sure I’d have much use for granularity beyond “city” and “highway” driving.
The Dodge just makes the acceleration curve jerky and pipes in sound that goes “Vroooooooooom -kachunk- vroooooooom” in a sad imitation of an ICE vehicle. Merely describing it gave me a midlife crisis.
For sure I think that having gears that mimic an old fashioned transmission is a kinda dumb feature. But at the same time I see it on a lot of cars with CVT, so I assume there is a market that...
For sure I think that having gears that mimic an old fashioned transmission is a kinda dumb feature. But at the same time I see it on a lot of cars with CVT, so I assume there is a market that wants it.
I think it might be nice if it were user-programmable.
IMO EV makers don’t take enough advantage of the form to reimagine how driving ought to work. Tesla is an exception, but they also make a lot of dumb decisions motivated around what an emotionally...
IMO EV makers don’t take enough advantage of the form to reimagine how driving ought to work. Tesla is an exception, but they also make a lot of dumb decisions motivated around what an emotionally stunted man-child will think is cool instead of what’s actually useful so they’re not an exemplar.
If it were up to me, I’d get people to start imagining what granular sorts of control are now possible with the software systems and design neat features around that.
How about an aircraft throttle to set the acceleration level?
Do we need P and N on the drive mode selector at all? How about just having a toggle switch to Park? Or a TURBO button to switch from city gear to highway gear instead of a stick? Why isn’t having navigation via HUD standard?
Unless it defaults back to 0 at roughly the same speed as a gas pedal, hard pass. People drive too damn fast as it is. I think having a distinct 'I am intentionally not moving for some time' on...
How about an aircraft throttle to set the acceleration level?
Unless it defaults back to 0 at roughly the same speed as a gas pedal, hard pass. People drive too damn fast as it is.
I think having a distinct 'I am intentionally not moving for some time' on the drive mode selector makes sense go the same reason it makes sense to have reverse there. Especially in an EV, where it essentially can mean 'shift to maximum power conservation.'
I'd like to have a paddle toggle on the wheel to engage a (possibly simulated) neutral though. Press and hold to go neutral, allowing the car to accelerate downhill or slow going uphill.
I know this drives people nuts on highways, but on hilly terrian being able to smartly use neutral for free accelleration (basically allowing yourself to go +-10mph if you are going steep downhill or are about to) can buy a lot of additional range.
I currently do this with cruise control in eco mode, which saves a bit, but is a lot more 'up wait, down, wait, up' when it could be simply 'hold to coast'
In theory the drive computer should be able to figure that out and adjust most of those things automatically I would think. Managing hills might not be as good as we’d like until they start...
In theory the drive computer should be able to figure that out and adjust most of those things automatically I would think. Managing hills might not be as good as we’d like until they start building more LIDAR and sensors into them though.
That’s actually more promising uses for “self-driving” technology for me than full self driving. Like really pro-active driver assist.
My Subaru has an angle sensor, which is a good start in that direction. Part of the reason I want open-source car computers is so I can see how some of this stuff ticks, like the eco cruise control.
My Subaru has an angle sensor, which is a good start in that direction.
Part of the reason I want open-source car computers is so I can see how some of this stuff ticks, like the eco cruise control.
What your describing as free acceleration may not actually make sense in an EV. If you're going faster in order to coast on a downhill, you're increasing the drag the car experiences. You'll most...
What your describing as free acceleration may not actually make sense in an EV. If you're going faster in order to coast on a downhill, you're increasing the drag the car experiences. You'll most likely get longer range going slower and utilizing the regenerative brake to recapture the gravitational potential energy. There's likely a bit of overlap between let the car coast faster even though the drag on the car increases (which eats away at the gravitational potential energy you're regaining coasting down the hill) vs the energy losses from the regenerative brake.
I haven't seen analysis on this, but as a rule of thumb I'd wager that for most hilly driving letting the car regenerative brake on the downhill will result in much more range than letting it coast and accelerate down the hill (and recapturing energy at the end if you have to brake before rolling off speed) as the energy loss due to drag becomes really big the faster you go (so the jump from 35 mph to 45 is big, and the jump from 45 to 55 is even bigger).
Simulating gear shifting actually makes some degree of sense in my head, partially for the exact reason you state. If it's simulating a gear shift, it can make it do the bare-minimum to give the...
Simulating gear shifting actually makes some degree of sense in my head, partially for the exact reason you state. If it's simulating a gear shift, it can make it do the bare-minimum to give the feeling without exerting as much tire damage. Sort of like automatically switching between Eco, Balanced, and Turbo modes.
I follow the same driving practices as you do, and it was jarring when I was riding while my partner drove a few months ago. She was doing a lot of doordashing at the time and so was used to...
I follow the same driving practices as you do, and it was jarring when I was riding while my partner drove a few months ago. She was doing a lot of doordashing at the time and so was used to making these quick, jerky turns and stops. I can't remember the last time I had gotten that car sick.
That's one interesting side effect of gig economy I never thought much about. When you're in a rush and response time is money, it makes sense to be more aggressive, which of course would extend...
That's one interesting side effect of gig economy I never thought much about. When you're in a rush and response time is money, it makes sense to be more aggressive, which of course would extend to your off-duty driving.
Real shame. Last thing LA needed was even more rude drivers on the road.
Oh god, the one that's worse than that is pulse drivers. These are the folks that when they finish getting up to speed, immediately let off the accelerator. Not all the way, but enough that the...
There’s no reason to be so herky jerky.
Oh god, the one that's worse than that is pulse drivers. These are the folks that when they finish getting up to speed, immediately let off the accelerator. Not all the way, but enough that the car then slows down a bit, so they ramp it up again. And repeat. It's like slow-motion whiplash.
I've ridden with people that do this that are otherwise good drivers. It's usually not even noticable if they're just another car on the road beside you, but if you're a passenger it's nauseating.
Agreed that there’s no reason, but EVs have instant torque and you get used to it real quick. The regenerative braking also adds to the jerkiness to some extent. If you’re the one driving you...
Agreed that there’s no reason, but EVs have instant torque and you get used to it real quick. The regenerative braking also adds to the jerkiness to some extent. If you’re the one driving you won’t notice, but passengers certainly will. Tesla has “chill mode” which is helpful in evening out acceleration.
I've found the regenerative braking to be significantly less jerky than regular brakes. It's much easier to control the amount of brake power once you have a bit of practice (assuming you're also...
I've found the regenerative braking to be significantly less jerky than regular brakes. It's much easier to control the amount of brake power once you have a bit of practice (assuming you're also practicing being a mindful driver). It felt jerky and first but I've found regular brakes to be significantly harder to control going back to a gas car if you're trying to make a smooth stop. Certainly possible to brake smoothly with regular brakes (also a practice and driving habit thing), but 1 pedal driving in an EV has much more potential to be a smooth experience.
I rented a Tesla for the first time a month ago (not by choice, it was the “mystery car” cheapest option next to a pickup truck…a comparison worthy of its own discussion another day I’m sure). It...
I rented a Tesla for the first time a month ago (not by choice, it was the “mystery car” cheapest option next to a pickup truck…a comparison worthy of its own discussion another day I’m sure).
It being my first time in a “factory reset” Tesla and I was surprised how much torque is allowed in the default mode. “Chill mode” was far more inline to how I drive ICE vehicles (as an admitted New Yorker who drives rarely).
I feel like if “chill mode” was actually the default we’d have many more Tesla owner’s treating their daily commute with a “Sunday drive” mentality rather than the perceived hyper aggressiveness they seem to impose on the road due to over-powered acceleration.
I wonder how much is due to tire compound. Lower rolling resistance vs your stickier 370z rubber. Making regs on tire compound wear for stock tires could help this issue.
I wonder how much is due to tire compound. Lower rolling resistance vs your stickier 370z rubber. Making regs on tire compound wear for stock tires could help this issue.
Utilitarian 5-seater stationwagon, 250km range, 100hp, 1250kg, 15.000euro's. Come on, let's go. Some EV company has to be able to do this within EuroNCap restrictions right?
Utilitarian 5-seater stationwagon, 250km range, 100hp, 1250kg, 15.000euro's. Come on, let's go. Some EV company has to be able to do this within EuroNCap restrictions right?
It was really, really, strange hearing someone describing 1.5 tons as 'almost half a vehicle.' Jesus Christ people, I remember when a 1 ton car was considered 'pretty heavy.' A 1996 Honda Odyssey...
It was really, really, strange hearing someone describing 1.5 tons as 'almost half a vehicle.'
Jesus Christ people, I remember when a 1 ton car was considered 'pretty heavy.'
A 1996 Honda Odyssey was about 1.75 tons. A 2024 Honda Odyssey is 2.25.
Does subaru have any hybrids in their current lineup? I thought it was just the Solterra? I got one of the very last Crosstrek PHEVs from the '23 model year, and it's… it serves me very well and...
Does subaru have any hybrids in their current lineup? I thought it was just the Solterra?
I got one of the very last Crosstrek PHEVs from the '23 model year, and it's… it serves me very well and I'm very happy with it, but I dunno if I would recommend it in general. There are a lot of compromises inherent to the concept. There's not a lot of extra space in a Crosstrek, so the traction battery is literally in the trunk and takes up a bunch of what would otherwise be cargo volume; the AWD (and just generally not-hyper-efficient design of the Crosstrek's body) results in pretty poor EV range; and once you get out of the speed range where the electric torque assist is significant, it becomes very clear that the ICE drivetrain is underpowered.
It may work better in a bigger car like the Outback. IMO, though, Subaru should be working on full EVs or range-extender hybrids. The design principles they've wedded themselves to (AWD; high-clearance, two-box bodies; to an extent, boxer engines) just don't mesh well with the compromises inherent to a hybrid drivetrain.
The Forrester has hybrid varients. It seems they may be working with Toyota for some of the newer hybrids. A Subaru form factor with Toyota mechanics suits me fine.
The Forrester has hybrid varients.
It seems they may be working with Toyota for some of the newer hybrids. A Subaru form factor with Toyota mechanics suits me fine.
Honda Civic 3-door hatchback style with fold-down rear seat, the same relatively enormous cargo capacity as the ICE version, AWD, 200+ km range, starting under $20k USD - I can't have nice things....
Honda Civic 3-door hatchback style with fold-down rear seat, the same relatively enormous cargo capacity as the ICE version, AWD, 200+ km range, starting under $20k USD - I can't have nice things.
The BYD Dolphin might just do for your purposes, but it's never going to be affordable in the U.S. because trade barriers. It's available within EuroNCap restrictions, though.
Noting this, even though it is likely an extreme case, because they seem to mean much faster than ICE cars. I am curious if people have a sense of how frequently they change their tires. Mine are...
We published a story last August about Rivian R1Ts needing new rubber after as few as 6,000 miles. Not all EV owners deal with such egregious wear, but considering most service shops recommend oil changes every 5,000 miles on gasoline-powered cars, the comparison checks out in that case.
Noting this, even though it is likely an extreme case, because they seem to mean much faster than ICE cars. I am curious if people have a sense of how frequently they change their tires. Mine are so infrequent, I really don't. I am guessing at every 4–5 years, which puts it in the 30–40k mile range.
I’ve still got the factory original tires on my Bolt and I have over 60k miles on it. It’s probably closer to 65k actually. It’s got plenty of tread left on them too. I’d agree with the sentiment...
I’ve still got the factory original tires on my Bolt and I have over 60k miles on it. It’s probably closer to 65k actually. It’s got plenty of tread left on them too. I’d agree with the sentiment that people who are seeing much worse wear on their tires are very likely driving very aggressively.
I would also have the original tires on my bolt, except I accidentally popped the front passenger tire a few weeks ago while driving tired. Thankfully, it happened at home and at 2mph, but still....
I would also have the original tires on my bolt, except I accidentally popped the front passenger tire a few weeks ago while driving tired. Thankfully, it happened at home and at 2mph, but still.
Mine is only 1K miles though. We bought it in Oct knowing we wouldn't be doing a ton of driving and it's been the best car for our routine.
I think 30-40k is pretty typical. My daily driver is 1595kg, moderately powered (230hp and pretty torquey due to turbos). It gets about 15k miles a year and I'm just now considering replacing my...
I think 30-40k is pretty typical. My daily driver is 1595kg, moderately powered (230hp and pretty torquey due to turbos). It gets about 15k miles a year and I'm just now considering replacing my tires before next winter. The current tires were put on around 10k miles and it's currently around 55k.
My girlfriend's civic is on ~6 year old tires, but it gets driven much less. My other vehicles... I'm not sure what the frequency will be.
Bought my 944S2 about a year ago and replaced tires because it had some ooooold snow tires when I got it.
Replaced two front tires on my 2014 981S last year after a pothole damaged the sidewall of one. That vehicle has 20k miles on it and I assume the rears are pretty old but the rubber seems healthy and probably has another 10k of tread left. Will likely have to replace those based on life span rather than wear.
My vehicle's factory tires lasted about about 6 years / 50k miles. 6k miles sounds insane, but I'm sure that's very much the exception and not the rule. Even so, the cost of having to replace...
My vehicle's factory tires lasted about about 6 years / 50k miles. 6k miles sounds insane, but I'm sure that's very much the exception and not the rule. Even so, the cost of having to replace tires on a BEV even only 2x as often as an ICE more than overrides the cost of oil changes during that time.
I do :) my car (3,200lb, 250hp Focus) came with Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric summer tires, which were worn out after about 20,000 miles. I replaced them with Yokohama Advan Sport A/S+ all-season...
I do :) my car (3,200lb, 250hp Focus) came with Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric summer tires, which were worn out after about 20,000 miles. I replaced them with Yokohama Advan Sport A/S+ all-season tires which have a 55,000 mile treadwear warranty. I've been on those for ~25,000 miles and they look basically new. They have noticeably less grip in warm and dry conditions, but are better in the wet/cold, and obviously last much longer. My driving trends towards spirited as well. 6,000 miles is ridiculous - that's motorcycle territory.
I own a Nissan Leaf that hasn't been going through tires any faster than any other car I've ever owned. That said, I drive it exclusively in Eco mode with the enhanced regenerative braking drive...
I own a Nissan Leaf that hasn't been going through tires any faster than any other car I've ever owned. That said, I drive it exclusively in Eco mode with the enhanced regenerative braking drive setting engaged so it's not laying down 100% of the torque it's capable of producing ever and my starts in it are generally slower/smoother than anything I've ever gotten from an ICE car.
I have taken it out of Eco mode once or twice and really given it "the gas" and I can see how you'd just shred tires if that was your day to day driving; it'll have no issues with putting a ton of torque straight into the wheels if you let it, but it also shreds your maximum range to drive like that so I take things slow and steady while remaining quite pleased.
Right? There's a reason race cars often change their tires throughout a race. And it's not just because some series demand at least one stop for tires/compound change!
Right? There's a reason race cars often change their tires throughout a race. And it's not just because some series demand at least one stop for tires/compound change!
I think one thing that is always missed, including this article, is that regenerative breaking, a common feature of most EVs, also puts additional wear on tires. The EV industry spends so much...
I think one thing that is always missed, including this article, is that regenerative breaking, a common feature of most EVs, also puts additional wear on tires. The EV industry spends so much time talking about how this saves wear on your breaks but rarely mentions this.
I went from a Ford Focus to my Model 3 and I definitely drove like an idiot for the first couple months. I'm sure that I wore my tires faster but also knew I was doing that thanks to my fun new toy.
It's still fun, but since I primarily commute on a clogged highway, my driving habits eventually returned to normal but I imagine that is not the case for many EV owners with that extra torque.
Why does regenerative braking wear tires out quicker than friction brakes? If it doesn't kick in until you hit the brake pedal I don't see why it would make any difference, doesn't the tire see...
Why does regenerative braking wear tires out quicker than friction brakes? If it doesn't kick in until you hit the brake pedal I don't see why it would make any difference, doesn't the tire see the same force in both cases?
Regenerative breaking in most EVs just automatically happens from the drivers point of view. You are not touching or using the break. The friction in the electric motor is used to slow the vehicle...
Regenerative breaking in most EVs just automatically happens from the drivers point of view. You are not touching or using the break. The friction in the electric motor is used to slow the vehicle and feed electricity back into the battery.
When regenerative breaking kicks in to slow the car, energy from the weight of the car is transferred to the tires and the car lurches forward. Not an engineer, so I'm bad at actually explaining it, but it does place wear on tires. When you use brakes to slow down, a lot of that energy wears on the brakes instead of the tires. That's the best way I can explain it as a layman.
But none of that should matter from a tire wear perspective. It makes no difference to the tire whether the braking happens through friction of discs or drag on a motor. Both methods act on the...
But none of that should matter from a tire wear perspective. It makes no difference to the tire whether the braking happens through friction of discs or drag on a motor. Both methods act on the axle, not the tire. If the vehicle is slowing, regardless of the method, the tires are reacting a force on the road (through friction) to decelerate the vehicle.
The actual substitution of regenerative braking is swapping motor wear for brake pad wear.
Tires still touch the road, and so they wear. Any type of braking applies torque on the tires, but EVs do this more often. Also they skip the coasting period between acceleration and braking,...
Tires still touch the road, and so they wear. Any type of braking applies torque on the tires, but EVs do this more often.
Also they skip the coasting period between acceleration and braking, jumping straight from acceleration to regenerative braking. I don't know how significant it is, but it is additional wear compared to the way most people would drive an ICE car.
ICE cars don't coast freely either unless they're in neutral. Even with your foot completely off the pedals, if the transmission is in gear the engine drag will eventually bring the vehicle to a...
ICE cars don't coast freely either unless they're in neutral. Even with your foot completely off the pedals, if the transmission is in gear the engine drag will eventually bring the vehicle to a stop.
But that's still beside the point: from a pure conservation of momentum perspective, the only way to create additional tire wear (for vehicles of comparable mass) is to actually decelerate more rapidly or more often. If a particular EV immediately starts regen braking when you take your foot off the pedal, then you just don't take your foot off the pedal until you're ready to slow down. It's the amount of braking that determines the tire wear, the method does not matter. Unless the regenerative braking mode somehow causes you to brake more than you normally would it physically cannot create additional tire wear. If you've got a source that shows otherwise I would love to see it, I haven't been able to find anything myself.
I drive an EV6, and I know most EVs handle regenerative breaking differently, but you can completely turn it off in my car and I don’t believe it’s unique in that way? You can also crank it up to...
I drive an EV6, and I know most EVs handle regenerative breaking differently, but you can completely turn it off in my car and I don’t believe it’s unique in that way?
You can also crank it up to maximum while say driving down a mountain road to help charge your battery. It’s up to the user how much or how little they want.
On of my favorite features for long distance with some hills driving is auto-coast mode. Two of my cars do it and it's a fun game to surf the hills and maximize your MPG.
On of my favorite features for long distance with some hills driving is auto-coast mode. Two of my cars do it and it's a fun game to surf the hills and maximize your MPG.
Isn’t the whole point of it that the energy goes back into the battery? Everything that goes into the tires would be dissipating the energy as friction instead of battery.
Isn’t the whole point of it that the energy goes back into the battery? Everything that goes into the tires would be dissipating the energy as friction instead of battery.
Pretty much every EV has some form of mitigation on the regen, and most of them these days have adjustable settings for them. My bolt has two different modes that affect how much it happens, with...
Pretty much every EV has some form of mitigation on the regen, and most of them these days have adjustable settings for them. My bolt has two different modes that affect how much it happens, with the standard driving mode simulating the amount of drag you'd get from an ICE car, but in any mode it only fully engages the regen when you either use the brake pedal or use a dedicated paddle on the steering wheel to manually activate it without the mechanical brakes.
If you take it to an extreme and slam the brakes, I can imagine it wearing down the tires more as it skids to a stop. If you don’t brake at all, the tires just slowly keep rolling until friction...
If you take it to an extreme and slam the brakes, I can imagine it wearing down the tires more as it skids to a stop. If you don’t brake at all, the tires just slowly keep rolling until friction brings the car to a stop. If you have regenerative braking (which kicks in immediately when not accelerating) then it’s somewhere in the middle.
I suppose the other question is compared to what? If you drive an ICE car with both feet on the pedals and are constantly accelerating and braking then you’ll use up the tires faster than if you gently coast to a stop and use minimal braking.
If that's the case then the car immediately starts slowing when you let off the pedal, so during normal constant-speed driving you would just keep your foot on the pedal. It doesn't result in...
If you have regenerative braking (which kicks in immediately when not accelerating) then it’s somewhere in the middle.
If that's the case then the car immediately starts slowing when you let off the pedal, so during normal constant-speed driving you would just keep your foot on the pedal. It doesn't result in additional tire wear because it doesn't result in additional deceleration. The tire wear only depends on changes in speed and the severity of those changes, so as long as your driving patterns remain the same the wear would be similar regardless of the braking method.
I largely agree with you, driving pattern probably has a larger impact than the braking method itself. One point of clarification though. The regenerative braking for sure results in additional...
I largely agree with you, driving pattern probably has a larger impact than the braking method itself. One point of clarification though.
It doesn't result in additional tire wear because it doesn't result in additional deceleration.
The regenerative braking for sure results in additional deceleration compared to an ICE car “coasting” to a stop without braking. It’s noticeable and I personally like it, as it allows for 1 pedal driving.
Right, but in that situation you'd already be braking anyway. What I mean is that it doesn't result in additional deceleration overall. The total amount you slow down over a drive doesn't change...
Right, but in that situation you'd already be braking anyway. What I mean is that it doesn't result in additional deceleration overall. The total amount you slow down over a drive doesn't change with the braking mode because you have to stop in the same spots along your route no matter what. That's the point that I think I'm having trouble getting across. If anything I think the drag you're describing would result in less tire wear, because the deceleration is more gradual. But it's probably negligible.
At least in Hyundai there's several driving profile that change the acceleration profile from easy going to sporty. I remember that's one of the point mentionned by MKBHDwhen reviewing luxury...
At least in Hyundai there's several driving profile that change the acceleration profile from easy going to sporty.
I remember that's one of the point mentionned by MKBHDwhen reviewing luxury sports EV : they can change from a relatively gentle car to a beast by the touch of a button.
Make smaller cars then. If anything it got worse over time because all cars are now at least cross overs if not outright SUVs.
The article posits it like it's a surprise but it never was. I really think that if you didn't see instant torque destroying your tyres then this is on yourself.
I'm sorry, I don't have a lot of sympathy for self inflicted problems like tyre wear especially when it comes with the added "benefit" of throwing up far more particulates and becomes a problem for me and others too.
You don't have to drive your Tesla like you stole it, and you probably don't need a Volvo XC90 or larger within city limits (or at all really).
Weight has a lot to do with it too. The Model 3 and Toyota Corolla are nearly the same size, but the Model 3 is nearly 4000 lbs while a Corolla is only about 3000 lbs. That 30% increase for the same footprint vehicle wears a lot on tires. But yeah, at least for stuff within a driver's control, driving style can certainly help. Tesla drivers near me have been noticeably asshole-ish in their driving.
The Corolla really isn't the right comparison. It is much smaller (width and length) than the Model 3. Comparing with something of similar size (an Audi A5) and it's much closer.
https://www.iseecars.com/compare/audi-a5-quattro_premium_45_tfsi-vs-tesla-model_3-base
The Corolla is 6cm shorter, 7cm narrower, and less than 1cm
shorterless tall than the Model 3. It's smaller, but I would strongly contest calling it "much" smaller.The Camry—a car which is nineteen centimeters longer than the Model 3—is still almost a hundred kilograms lighter.
The A5 is another 6cm longer than the Model 3. If it's an appropriate comparison, the Corolla certainly is, too; and it's still more than a hundred kilos lighter than the Tesla, and if anything, that's an argument that the A5 is also too heavy.
https://www.iseecars.com/compare/toyota-corolla-se-vs-tesla-model_3-base
2024 Corolla is 11 inches less wide and a little over 2 inches less long as compared to a 2024 Tesla.
(that's 28cm less wide, btw)
I'm not sure that iseecars.com is sourcing the right data in that comparison. This data source page is showing the same width of 70.1" on the Toyota Corolla with and without mirrors, which obviously can't be correct. They do have both separate metrics for the Model 3 which shows a width of 72.8" without mirrors and 82.2" with. This Reddit thread claims 83" of width on the Corolla with mirrors, but they don't seem to publish that stat on specification sites. But yeah, iseecars is obviously not comparing the same measurements for width between those two vehicles.
Fair enough. My mistake on the bad data. I just checked Edmunds and it shows the Corolla without mirrors at 70.1in and Tesla Model 3 at 72.8in.
Isn't the Impreza hatch similar in size to the A5 and a couple hundred pounds lighter?
Honestly, it's probably noise dampening weight.
Same in my area, I avoid them like the plague. They are aggressive and dangerous to be around, weaving in and out, passing on right, flooring it at every light and stop sign. I would say 7 out of 10 drive like that, the others are normal or slow AF.
And on that note, can you even trust any of them with all the software issues and poor controls design? I give them a wide berth.
Absolutely. We need some more small EV options. Think electrified versions of the Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, or Scion xB, none of which should be all that heavy or need to be torque monsters.
Also none of which are still in production in the US.
Sadly. I believe there’s still a demand though, because Fits for example fetch a premium in the used market in my area compared to larger still-in-production cars of the same vintage.
Oh, there's a ton of demand. I would've bought a smaller car but there's nothing on the market outside Hyundai/Kia and they burned me (HA) on resale value with all those problems.
Not an EV, but I enjoyed my (kinetic) hybrid Honda CR-Z. It was released as a 2-seat in the US, but somehow had a backseat in the UK. How anyone could fit behind the front seats is a mystery to me.
I believe part of the issue revolves around the point that EV's are also denser than ICE cars. Those large batteries have many explicit and implicit costs.
Not everyone understands the instant torque thing. Just because it may seem like common sense to you does not mean other people were taught it like you were.
This is such a well propagated idea though. EVs are part of the national news, not some obscure online bulletin board.
I remember reading about the front tyres of the VW Golf GTE degrading faster than normal back when the car was released in 2015. Same with the Outlander. And those are hybrids!
It’s instantly noticeable when you drive it the first time. It’s very unusual to buy a car without doing a test drive.
I’ve seen this critique of “EVs” a few times now, however the underlying issue isn’t necessarily the propulsion system, but rather the Torque and HP that some of these cars put out. If you trade in an economy car for a sports car, you’re going to wear down tires a lot faster. You’ll also need more expensive tires and your driving habits may become more aggressive. In my experience I’m changing tires LESS frequently on the Tesla model 3 than I did on my prior ICE sports cars (BMW M3, Nissan 370Z).
There’s no reason your driving habits need to be more aggressive. I think lead footed driving is just a general bad habit we need to train people out of. It’s not even comfortable being in the passenger seat when people drive like that. Keep acceleration and braking smooth. There’s no reason to be so herky jerky.
My passengers almost never get nauseous while riding in my car for that exact reason. Actually obeying the recommended turning speeds on those yellow signs for bends in the road also does wonders.
Pro tip to readers: Look as far in the distance as you can. If you see a red light, let off the accelerator immediately. Start a gentle brake to drop about 10mph from what you were doing, and then coast to the light. I've found that once I've learned the typical traffic and light cycle, adjusting the amount of braking, it'll mean I might be driving 35mph on a 50 mph stretch of road, but I'm also not constantly stopping at the red lights and slamming on the gas to get to 50mph. It's exceptionally fun passing people who aren't doing this, who get pissed that I'm going 35, pass me, then immediately slam on the brakes while I coast past again because I avoided the rubberbanding from the stop/start.
Beyond just having a smoother ride, it'll also save you a ton of gas/electricity. Acceleration takes a lot more gas than maintaining speed.
The new Dodge EV apparently simulates gear shifts. While I find that to be really fucking stupid, I wonder if maybe things like that which give people the sense of “LOOK AT ME! AHMA GOING VROOM VROOM!” without necessarily going that fast might end up being safer and less wasteful.
The “slow car fast” ethos really should get more attention in the car world. The top-line performance is completely irrelevant for 90% of driving cases and enabling it just encourages unsafe driving and unneeded wear on the car and infrastructure. Make the cars fun to drive at legal speeds and we’ll all be better off.
"virtual gears" are very much a good thing in my book. When you shift into drive it should default to something with a gentle acceleration curve to encourage safe driving habits and efficient use of energy.
The thing I dislike about my Bolt is that even though it does have a faster "sport mode" available to it, the basic Drive mode still has insane acceleration. On average I am only using the first 3 centimeters of throw on the accelerator pedal.
Those would be functional changes to the driving dynamics and actually cool. Though I’m not sure I’d have much use for granularity beyond “city” and “highway” driving.
The Dodge just makes the acceleration curve jerky and pipes in sound that goes “Vroooooooooom -kachunk- vroooooooom” in a sad imitation of an ICE vehicle. Merely describing it gave me a midlife crisis.
For sure I think that having gears that mimic an old fashioned transmission is a kinda dumb feature. But at the same time I see it on a lot of cars with CVT, so I assume there is a market that wants it.
I think it might be nice if it were user-programmable.
IMO EV makers don’t take enough advantage of the form to reimagine how driving ought to work. Tesla is an exception, but they also make a lot of dumb decisions motivated around what an emotionally stunted man-child will think is cool instead of what’s actually useful so they’re not an exemplar.
If it were up to me, I’d get people to start imagining what granular sorts of control are now possible with the software systems and design neat features around that.
How about an aircraft throttle to set the acceleration level?
Do we need P and N on the drive mode selector at all? How about just having a toggle switch to Park? Or a TURBO button to switch from city gear to highway gear instead of a stick? Why isn’t having navigation via HUD standard?
Unless it defaults back to 0 at roughly the same speed as a gas pedal, hard pass. People drive too damn fast as it is.
I think having a distinct 'I am intentionally not moving for some time' on the drive mode selector makes sense go the same reason it makes sense to have reverse there. Especially in an EV, where it essentially can mean 'shift to maximum power conservation.'
I'd like to have a paddle toggle on the wheel to engage a (possibly simulated) neutral though. Press and hold to go neutral, allowing the car to accelerate downhill or slow going uphill.
I know this drives people nuts on highways, but on hilly terrian being able to smartly use neutral for free accelleration (basically allowing yourself to go +-10mph if you are going steep downhill or are about to) can buy a lot of additional range.
I currently do this with cruise control in eco mode, which saves a bit, but is a lot more 'up wait, down, wait, up' when it could be simply 'hold to coast'
In theory the drive computer should be able to figure that out and adjust most of those things automatically I would think. Managing hills might not be as good as we’d like until they start building more LIDAR and sensors into them though.
That’s actually more promising uses for “self-driving” technology for me than full self driving. Like really pro-active driver assist.
My Subaru has an angle sensor, which is a good start in that direction.
Part of the reason I want open-source car computers is so I can see how some of this stuff ticks, like the eco cruise control.
What your describing as free acceleration may not actually make sense in an EV. If you're going faster in order to coast on a downhill, you're increasing the drag the car experiences. You'll most likely get longer range going slower and utilizing the regenerative brake to recapture the gravitational potential energy. There's likely a bit of overlap between let the car coast faster even though the drag on the car increases (which eats away at the gravitational potential energy you're regaining coasting down the hill) vs the energy losses from the regenerative brake.
I haven't seen analysis on this, but as a rule of thumb I'd wager that for most hilly driving letting the car regenerative brake on the downhill will result in much more range than letting it coast and accelerate down the hill (and recapturing energy at the end if you have to brake before rolling off speed) as the energy loss due to drag becomes really big the faster you go (so the jump from 35 mph to 45 is big, and the jump from 45 to 55 is even bigger).
Simulating gear shifting actually makes some degree of sense in my head, partially for the exact reason you state. If it's simulating a gear shift, it can make it do the bare-minimum to give the feeling without exerting as much tire damage. Sort of like automatically switching between Eco, Balanced, and Turbo modes.
I follow the same driving practices as you do, and it was jarring when I was riding while my partner drove a few months ago. She was doing a lot of doordashing at the time and so was used to making these quick, jerky turns and stops. I can't remember the last time I had gotten that car sick.
That's one interesting side effect of gig economy I never thought much about. When you're in a rush and response time is money, it makes sense to be more aggressive, which of course would extend to your off-duty driving.
Real shame. Last thing LA needed was even more rude drivers on the road.
Oh god, the one that's worse than that is pulse drivers. These are the folks that when they finish getting up to speed, immediately let off the accelerator. Not all the way, but enough that the car then slows down a bit, so they ramp it up again. And repeat. It's like slow-motion whiplash.
I've ridden with people that do this that are otherwise good drivers. It's usually not even noticable if they're just another car on the road beside you, but if you're a passenger it's nauseating.
Agreed that there’s no reason, but EVs have instant torque and you get used to it real quick. The regenerative braking also adds to the jerkiness to some extent. If you’re the one driving you won’t notice, but passengers certainly will. Tesla has “chill mode” which is helpful in evening out acceleration.
I've found the regenerative braking to be significantly less jerky than regular brakes. It's much easier to control the amount of brake power once you have a bit of practice (assuming you're also practicing being a mindful driver). It felt jerky and first but I've found regular brakes to be significantly harder to control going back to a gas car if you're trying to make a smooth stop. Certainly possible to brake smoothly with regular brakes (also a practice and driving habit thing), but 1 pedal driving in an EV has much more potential to be a smooth experience.
I rented a Tesla for the first time a month ago (not by choice, it was the “mystery car” cheapest option next to a pickup truck…a comparison worthy of its own discussion another day I’m sure).
It being my first time in a “factory reset” Tesla and I was surprised how much torque is allowed in the default mode. “Chill mode” was far more inline to how I drive ICE vehicles (as an admitted New Yorker who drives rarely).
I feel like if “chill mode” was actually the default we’d have many more Tesla owner’s treating their daily commute with a “Sunday drive” mentality rather than the perceived hyper aggressiveness they seem to impose on the road due to over-powered acceleration.
I wonder how much is due to tire compound. Lower rolling resistance vs your stickier 370z rubber. Making regs on tire compound wear for stock tires could help this issue.
Utilitarian 5-seater stationwagon, 250km range, 100hp, 1250kg, 15.000euro's. Come on, let's go. Some EV company has to be able to do this within EuroNCap restrictions right?
Ok, but I want this or similar in the US for dollars also. : )
Best I can do is a pickup truck weighing in over 3 tonnes and costing over 50k.
It was really, really, strange hearing someone describing 1.5 tons as 'almost half a vehicle.'
Jesus Christ people, I remember when a 1 ton car was considered 'pretty heavy.'
A 1996 Honda Odyssey was about 1.75 tons. A 2024 Honda Odyssey is 2.25.
I miss the tiny trucks from the 80s
I love my little Piaggio Porter 1.3L camper van :) 880kg on the scales.
Have you seen the Ford Maverick?
Only just now. It's a move in the right direction
Subaru still doesn't have hybrid options across the full lineup.
I am looking forward to the rumoured PHEV Outbacks though.
Does subaru have any hybrids in their current lineup? I thought it was just the Solterra?
I got one of the very last Crosstrek PHEVs from the '23 model year, and it's… it serves me very well and I'm very happy with it, but I dunno if I would recommend it in general. There are a lot of compromises inherent to the concept. There's not a lot of extra space in a Crosstrek, so the traction battery is literally in the trunk and takes up a bunch of what would otherwise be cargo volume; the AWD (and just generally not-hyper-efficient design of the Crosstrek's body) results in pretty poor EV range; and once you get out of the speed range where the electric torque assist is significant, it becomes very clear that the ICE drivetrain is underpowered.
It may work better in a bigger car like the Outback. IMO, though, Subaru should be working on full EVs or range-extender hybrids. The design principles they've wedded themselves to (AWD; high-clearance, two-box bodies; to an extent, boxer engines) just don't mesh well with the compromises inherent to a hybrid drivetrain.
The Forrester has hybrid varients.
It seems they may be working with Toyota for some of the newer hybrids. A Subaru form factor with Toyota mechanics suits me fine.
Honda Civic 3-door hatchback style with fold-down rear seat, the same relatively enormous cargo capacity as the ICE version, AWD, 200+ km range, starting under $20k USD - I can't have nice things.
The BYD Dolphin might just do for your purposes, but it's never going to be affordable in the U.S. because trade barriers. It's available within EuroNCap restrictions, though.
I'm a 35 y.o. depressed NEET, I have no money for a house, a car or kids. But it's nice to talk about it :'( Thanks for the suggestion though.
Probably in China somewhere.
Noting this, even though it is likely an extreme case, because they seem to mean much faster than ICE cars. I am curious if people have a sense of how frequently they change their tires. Mine are so infrequent, I really don't. I am guessing at every 4–5 years, which puts it in the 30–40k mile range.
I’ve still got the factory original tires on my Bolt and I have over 60k miles on it. It’s probably closer to 65k actually. It’s got plenty of tread left on them too. I’d agree with the sentiment that people who are seeing much worse wear on their tires are very likely driving very aggressively.
I would also have the original tires on my bolt, except I accidentally popped the front passenger tire a few weeks ago while driving tired. Thankfully, it happened at home and at 2mph, but still.
Mine is only 1K miles though. We bought it in Oct knowing we wouldn't be doing a ton of driving and it's been the best car for our routine.
I think 30-40k is pretty typical. My daily driver is 1595kg, moderately powered (230hp and pretty torquey due to turbos). It gets about 15k miles a year and I'm just now considering replacing my tires before next winter. The current tires were put on around 10k miles and it's currently around 55k.
My girlfriend's civic is on ~6 year old tires, but it gets driven much less. My other vehicles... I'm not sure what the frequency will be.
My vehicle's factory tires lasted about about 6 years / 50k miles. 6k miles sounds insane, but I'm sure that's very much the exception and not the rule. Even so, the cost of having to replace tires on a BEV even only 2x as often as an ICE more than overrides the cost of oil changes during that time.
I do :) my car (3,200lb, 250hp Focus) came with Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric summer tires, which were worn out after about 20,000 miles. I replaced them with Yokohama Advan Sport A/S+ all-season tires which have a 55,000 mile treadwear warranty. I've been on those for ~25,000 miles and they look basically new. They have noticeably less grip in warm and dry conditions, but are better in the wet/cold, and obviously last much longer. My driving trends towards spirited as well. 6,000 miles is ridiculous - that's motorcycle territory.
I own a Nissan Leaf that hasn't been going through tires any faster than any other car I've ever owned. That said, I drive it exclusively in Eco mode with the enhanced regenerative braking drive setting engaged so it's not laying down 100% of the torque it's capable of producing ever and my starts in it are generally slower/smoother than anything I've ever gotten from an ICE car.
I have taken it out of Eco mode once or twice and really given it "the gas" and I can see how you'd just shred tires if that was your day to day driving; it'll have no issues with putting a ton of torque straight into the wheels if you let it, but it also shreds your maximum range to drive like that so I take things slow and steady while remaining quite pleased.
Do car drivers really not understand that peeling out from every stoplight will burn through your tires? I learned that one when I was 16.
Right? There's a reason race cars often change their tires throughout a race. And it's not just because some series demand at least one stop for tires/compound change!
I think one thing that is always missed, including this article, is that regenerative breaking, a common feature of most EVs, also puts additional wear on tires. The EV industry spends so much time talking about how this saves wear on your breaks but rarely mentions this.
I went from a Ford Focus to my Model 3 and I definitely drove like an idiot for the first couple months. I'm sure that I wore my tires faster but also knew I was doing that thanks to my fun new toy.
It's still fun, but since I primarily commute on a clogged highway, my driving habits eventually returned to normal but I imagine that is not the case for many EV owners with that extra torque.
Why does regenerative braking wear tires out quicker than friction brakes? If it doesn't kick in until you hit the brake pedal I don't see why it would make any difference, doesn't the tire see the same force in both cases?
I'd like to see a physical explanation as well. It shouldn't matter whether the wheel is shown down by friction or magnets.
Regenerative breaking in most EVs just automatically happens from the drivers point of view. You are not touching or using the break. The friction in the electric motor is used to slow the vehicle and feed electricity back into the battery.
When regenerative breaking kicks in to slow the car, energy from the weight of the car is transferred to the tires and the car lurches forward. Not an engineer, so I'm bad at actually explaining it, but it does place wear on tires. When you use brakes to slow down, a lot of that energy wears on the brakes instead of the tires. That's the best way I can explain it as a layman.
But none of that should matter from a tire wear perspective. It makes no difference to the tire whether the braking happens through friction of discs or drag on a motor. Both methods act on the axle, not the tire. If the vehicle is slowing, regardless of the method, the tires are reacting a force on the road (through friction) to decelerate the vehicle.
The actual substitution of regenerative braking is swapping motor wear for brake pad wear.
Tires still touch the road, and so they wear. Any type of braking applies torque on the tires, but EVs do this more often.
Also they skip the coasting period between acceleration and braking, jumping straight from acceleration to regenerative braking. I don't know how significant it is, but it is additional wear compared to the way most people would drive an ICE car.
ICE cars don't coast freely either unless they're in neutral. Even with your foot completely off the pedals, if the transmission is in gear the engine drag will eventually bring the vehicle to a stop.
But that's still beside the point: from a pure conservation of momentum perspective, the only way to create additional tire wear (for vehicles of comparable mass) is to actually decelerate more rapidly or more often. If a particular EV immediately starts regen braking when you take your foot off the pedal, then you just don't take your foot off the pedal until you're ready to slow down. It's the amount of braking that determines the tire wear, the method does not matter. Unless the regenerative braking mode somehow causes you to brake more than you normally would it physically cannot create additional tire wear. If you've got a source that shows otherwise I would love to see it, I haven't been able to find anything myself.
This annoys me to no end. I want a nice wide drift range. It's especially useful on really hilly terrian.
I drive an EV6, and I know most EVs handle regenerative breaking differently, but you can completely turn it off in my car and I don’t believe it’s unique in that way?
You can also crank it up to maximum while say driving down a mountain road to help charge your battery. It’s up to the user how much or how little they want.
On of my favorite features for long distance with some hills driving is auto-coast mode. Two of my cars do it and it's a fun game to surf the hills and maximize your MPG.
Isn’t the whole point of it that the energy goes back into the battery? Everything that goes into the tires would be dissipating the energy as friction instead of battery.
Like everything, nothing is 100%. I can't quantify how much. Regenerative breaking is not 100% efficient and I'm sure it depends on the manufacturer.
Pretty much every EV has some form of mitigation on the regen, and most of them these days have adjustable settings for them. My bolt has two different modes that affect how much it happens, with the standard driving mode simulating the amount of drag you'd get from an ICE car, but in any mode it only fully engages the regen when you either use the brake pedal or use a dedicated paddle on the steering wheel to manually activate it without the mechanical brakes.
If you take it to an extreme and slam the brakes, I can imagine it wearing down the tires more as it skids to a stop. If you don’t brake at all, the tires just slowly keep rolling until friction brings the car to a stop. If you have regenerative braking (which kicks in immediately when not accelerating) then it’s somewhere in the middle.
I suppose the other question is compared to what? If you drive an ICE car with both feet on the pedals and are constantly accelerating and braking then you’ll use up the tires faster than if you gently coast to a stop and use minimal braking.
If that's the case then the car immediately starts slowing when you let off the pedal, so during normal constant-speed driving you would just keep your foot on the pedal. It doesn't result in additional tire wear because it doesn't result in additional deceleration. The tire wear only depends on changes in speed and the severity of those changes, so as long as your driving patterns remain the same the wear would be similar regardless of the braking method.
I largely agree with you, driving pattern probably has a larger impact than the braking method itself. One point of clarification though.
The regenerative braking for sure results in additional deceleration compared to an ICE car “coasting” to a stop without braking. It’s noticeable and I personally like it, as it allows for 1 pedal driving.
Right, but in that situation you'd already be braking anyway. What I mean is that it doesn't result in additional deceleration overall. The total amount you slow down over a drive doesn't change with the braking mode because you have to stop in the same spots along your route no matter what. That's the point that I think I'm having trouble getting across. If anything I think the drag you're describing would result in less tire wear, because the deceleration is more gradual. But it's probably negligible.
I suspect that a software patch adding a “tire saver” option that makes it drive like a Prius would fix it?
At least in Hyundai there's several driving profile that change the acceleration profile from easy going to sporty.
I remember that's one of the point mentionned by MKBHDwhen reviewing luxury sports EV : they can change from a relatively gentle car to a beast by the touch of a button.
I have LRR on my hybrid and they really don’t last all that long. I think they get about 20k before they start looking like the last airbender.