Some missing context that we’ve discussed on Tildes before is that Japan has a fairly poor electrical grid that will be difficult to upgrade. Toyota is motivated to find better solutions for the...
Some missing context that we’ve discussed on Tildes before is that Japan has a fairly poor electrical grid that will be difficult to upgrade. Toyota is motivated to find better solutions for the Japanese market. They can also sell in other markets where it’s a good fit.
More generally, I think we will have a hodgepodge of different kinds of transportation for different needs, with none of them going away. The trick is figuring out how to make them work together.
While Japan might have a poor electrical grid, the US has different issues when it comes to charging infrastructure (an overall lack of chargers). Toyota's solution solves both problems, which are...
While Japan might have a poor electrical grid, the US has different issues when it comes to charging infrastructure (an overall lack of chargers). Toyota's solution solves both problems, which are both under the "charging infrastructure" umbrella.
The 50/60Hz issue and aversion to nuclear aside, what’s the problem with Japan’s electricity grid? Tons of solar here, few service interruptions in spite of having tons of above-ground power lines...
The 50/60Hz issue and aversion to nuclear aside, what’s the problem with Japan’s electricity grid? Tons of solar here, few service interruptions in spite of having tons of above-ground power lines and rough annual rains.
@drannex wrote a long explanation in this topic. My understanding is that it's not just the 50/60 split; it's also divided further into regions with limited capacity between them? I don't know a...
@drannex wrote a long explanation in this topic. My understanding is that it's not just the 50/60 split; it's also divided further into regions with limited capacity between them?
I don't know a whole lot more about it, so I'll just refer you to that.
It’s the fact that it’s 100V single phase. Charging EVs from that is a complete non-starter. Japan is also using something like 80% imported resources for energy production (gas and coal)
It’s the fact that it’s 100V single phase. Charging EVs from that is a complete non-starter.
Japan is also using something like 80% imported resources for energy production (gas and coal)
I applaud toyota for this. I’m still not persuaded that ev’s are a useful path to a sustainable future, not least of which they allow affluent to purchase otherwise horrible vehicles and pretend...
I applaud toyota for this. I’m still not persuaded that ev’s are a useful path to a sustainable future, not least of which they allow affluent to purchase otherwise horrible vehicles and pretend they are part of the solution.
A modern diesel burns clean and driven sensibly rivals ev on efficiency is pretty darn efficient. And we already have a good distribution network and it can be made with low effort from waste biomass. In a hybrid application you get a 500k mile service life (or more).
Edit: for correction and to add:
Regardless of the straight energy and CO2 output calculations, there are a lot of other costs to EVs, many of them externalized to non-benefitting populations. Batteries are very nasty to produce and dispose of, even if that disposition is recycling, which happens a lot less often than anyone would like to think about. Electrical generation creates all kinds of costs. PV solar has the same drawbacks as batteries. Building new distribution infrastructure has all kinds of costs, and maintenance costs I do not believe track linearly (that is, I believe they increase at a faster rate as you add more). Also more poorly maintained infrastructure means more risk of wildfires, etc. EV's are also a lot heavier, creating a lot more load on the roadways which heretofore has been born equally by all taxpayers. They can also be more dangerous to pedestrians and wildlife. It's probably out there, but I haven't seen full cost analysis (actual cost, not just price) of use of ev vs. ICE. I would guess it edges out gasoline, but am not persuaded wrt diesel or other alternative fuels.
Not really. It’s been a while since I’ve last looked into it, but from briefly trying to recollect some info I got this: Diesel engines are at around 50% peak efficiency (wiki based on this...
A modern diesel driven sensibly rivals ev on efficiency.
Not really. It’s been a while since I’ve last looked into it, but from briefly trying to recollect some info I got this:
Diesel engines are at around 50% peak efficiency (wiki based on this source, albeit that’s from the mid-2000s)
Electric engines are, depending on who you ask, at a minimum at 60% (1) or even up to 90% (2)
And this is really favorable for ICEs. It’s not unfair to say the average gas car will more often be at 25-35% efficiency than 40-50%, in my view.
EVs win on thermodynamics alone. And that is completely ignoring the fact that power can be, and increasingly is, produced renewably, even locally; whereas diesel will always have to be imported (unless you have a refinery across the town, I guess), in addition to the local emissions.
And if you produce some form of gasoline from a non-oil source (e.g. plant-based), then that’s even higher efficiency losses due to the energy needed in that whole process.
In a hybrid application you get a 500k mile service life (or more).
Fair enough. Although I’d argue the subset of all vehicles this actually happens with is a really, really small one. And EVs have acceptable lifetimes too. Biggest consideration point is by far the battery, and that’s recyclable – it will always be more efficient to regain rare metals from batteries over newly dug material due to the concentration of it. Something like 99% usable materials vs. 0.1% per tonne of raw ore.
Zooming out to the bigger picture though, I agree with @Wafik. It’s right that EVs won’t save us. Less car usage (individual) might.
I think may have that wrong on operational efficiency at the engine. I think too, even if you factor in the waste from electricity generation and transmission, EV comes out on top, although the...
I think may have that wrong on operational efficiency at the engine. I think too, even if you factor in the waste from electricity generation and transmission, EV comes out on top, although the margin is significantly decreased after that calculation. "Miles per gallon equivalent" tries to capture this, although I strongly suspect MPGe figures are inflated.
Note diesel can be produced much more efficiently from biomass than gasoline (or gasoline substitutes like ethanol, afaik gasoline cannot be produced from biomass). This is both in terms of process and feed material. For example, diesel can be made from simple digestion of cellulose, whereas ethanol requires starch and a lot of cooking. Cellulose can be grown from perennial plants with very limited soil amendments (see, e.g., kudzu or miscanthus).
But we're all right-car culture must change in a sustainable future. Note that, done right, getting people out of cars has many individual health benefits besides a hospitable climate and all the other macro environmental health considerations.
The reality is that none of it is enough and we need more radical solutions. In North America, that likely means completely changing our car culture. Since that is unlikely, then a combination of...
The reality is that none of it is enough and we need more radical solutions. In North America, that likely means completely changing our car culture. Since that is unlikely, then a combination of approaches is probably needed. I'm more positive about EVs than it sounds like you are, but forcing everyone onto only EVs as many governments are doing seems short sighted unless there is significant investment in charging infrastructure. Until that day, I think there is a decent argument to be made for two car house holds to have one EV and one ICE. A small EV is superior for a daily commute and running around while ICE is going to remain better for longer road trips for many people.
Just as a very sad aside, in my state (and possibly the entire United States), it is illegal to install charging stations in interstate rest areas. That is one of the most WTF policies I've run...
Just as a very sad aside, in my state (and possibly the entire United States), it is illegal to install charging stations in interstate rest areas. That is one of the most WTF policies I've run across recently.
It's not really different from prohibiting a gas station - you can only sell a few items at rest stops - food, beverages, lottery tickets apparently though I've never seen that. So it requires a...
It's not really different from prohibiting a gas station - you can only sell a few items at rest stops - food, beverages, lottery tickets apparently though I've never seen that. So it requires a law, and we know how good Congress is about passing those lately.
But whatever would be installed would need to not just be the equivalent of letting Shell put up a gas pump, and would need some regulation since it's public land and such.
At the very least, I think we should encourage any who EVs are practical for to move over to them. Take my case: I work from home and live in a single family home with both a garage and parking...
At the very least, I think we should encourage any who EVs are practical for to move over to them.
Take my case: I work from home and live in a single family home with both a garage and parking spot, with ample space in the breaker box to install a charger. I drive infrequently enough that getting by charging from a plain old wall socket would be fine. Trips are usually far away enough that driving isn’t practical, meaning if I’m driving it’s well with a 100mi radius 99% of the time.
In my situation, regular ICE vehicles are hard to justify, and the gas burning components of a plug-in hybrid are almost always dead weight. A small EV would be a the best fit by far.
My situation may not be typical, but even the small percentage of the US population who share it is a lot of people and moving them all over could make a meaningful impact.
Yeah situations like yours or mine are ideal for EVs. I don't have a garage but I had a 14-50 NEMA plug installed on the side of my house and charged there daily. My daily commute is 110km, 5 days...
Yeah situations like yours or mine are ideal for EVs. I don't have a garage but I had a 14-50 NEMA plug installed on the side of my house and charged there daily. My daily commute is 110km, 5 days a week and I rarely go somewhere outside my range that would require fast charging. I also have an old man's Blatter so I'm rarely driving longer than my batteries full charge without needing to stop anyways. But I know that is not everyone's case.
Like many people, I live in an apartment with no parking or charging infrastructure. I also work at home. I honestly don't drive much but an EV would be very inconvenient. I also wonder about the...
Like many people, I live in an apartment with no parking or charging infrastructure. I also work at home. I honestly don't drive much but an EV would be very inconvenient.
I also wonder about the overall demand for electric power, between cars, data centers, increased cooling demand because of climate change etc
Ultimately low cost energy would solve this all yet it's getting more and more expensive, would be interesting to see a breakdown as to why it's risen so much over the last 20 years. Should have...
Ultimately low cost energy would solve this all yet it's getting more and more expensive, would be interesting to see a breakdown as to why it's risen so much over the last 20 years. Should have more than ever, cheaper than ever.
As of now, a majority of people aren’t (yet?) working from home, meaning their job parking can and should be able to sufficiently provide for charging. New residential construction should include...
Like many people, I live in an apartment with no parking or charging infrastructure. I also work at home. I honestly don't drive much but an EV would be very inconvenient.
As of now, a majority of people aren’t (yet?) working from home, meaning their job parking can and should be able to sufficiently provide for charging. New residential construction should include a minimum of charging infrastructure, although, despite not knowing where you live I’m fairly certain that’s not the case for your area, just as it isn’t for mine, unfortunately.
I also wonder about the overall demand for electric power, between cars, data centers, increased cooling demand because of climate change etc
This is the real question. Grid load is already becoming a topic, and if every house in the street has at minimum one vehicle that it wants to charge overnight, suddenly the grid requirements are completely different. At the same time, decentralized production and storage is immensely scalable. It will be interesting to see what prevails (aka if construction incentives to build out photovoltaics on every roof and include battery storages in some/most homes are high enough).
Shouldn't the govt and EV manufacturers provide the charging infrastructure? Or at least give incentives for privately owned charging points, not force it. Residential developments are having...
job parking can and should be able to sufficiently provide for charging
Shouldn't the govt and EV manufacturers provide the charging infrastructure? Or at least give incentives for privately owned charging points, not force it.
Residential developments are having charging points here and people will happily pay extra for it imo because they want to be future safe with homes.
Yes, that is exactly what I meant, you just worded it better (clearly defining who’s responsible is always a good thing). Unfortunately businesses don’t have an inherent interest in that; since...
Shouldn't the govt and EV manufacturers provide the charging infrastructure? Or at least give incentives for privately owned charging points, not force it.
Yes, that is exactly what I meant, you just worded it better (clearly defining who’s responsible is always a good thing).
Residential developments are having charging points here and people will happily pay extra for it imo because they want to be future safe with homes.
Unfortunately businesses don’t have an inherent interest in that; since most office space is rented out, it’s only about their ongoing costs, not so much about in investments in an appreciating assets… Government would definitely have to step in, but unfortunately doesn’t, for the most part.
Yep, until apartments/condos starting installing more charging or even just basic plugs I would never own an EV if I was in that situation. The power demands are real. Realistically, we need to...
Yep, until apartments/condos starting installing more charging or even just basic plugs I would never own an EV if I was in that situation.
The power demands are real. Realistically, we need to use more nuclear power to help but everyone is so afraid of it.
Everything else aside, I think nuclear is already too slow — any project that starts in 2024 will likely be a decade or two before it starts providing output, even if it got a government-sized...
Everything else aside, I think nuclear is already too slow — any project that starts in 2024 will likely be a decade or two before it starts providing output, even if it got a government-sized push to speed up construction. That’s not to say this fact should be used as an excuse to never build nuclear, but it’s not a solution that will increase electricity generation before 2040. If those are the scales you’re looking at, then yeah it’s a good idea, but I just feel like it’s important to look at generation that can be up and running within a few years, not decades, if we’re talking about EV charging
Probably some fear, but the efficiency of nuclear power is just isn't as high as people want to believe. Fission uses a lot of energy and needs to work at a large scale to get gains. Practical...
Probably some fear, but the efficiency of nuclear power is just isn't as high as people want to believe. Fission uses a lot of energy and needs to work at a large scale to get gains. Practical Fusion is still sci-fi as of now (though I do believe we'll see it in our lifetimes).
I do think nuclear is the endgame, but we need stopgaps in the meantime (assuming large cities don't fundamentally restructure the need for cars away).
I can't see how solar isn't the ultimate endgame. There's a giant nuclear engine putting up power for free up there, and we barely do anything with it.
I can't see how solar isn't the ultimate endgame. There's a giant nuclear engine putting up power for free up there, and we barely do anything with it.
I guess it depends on if we get a chance to meaningfully develop tech like Dyson spheres, which would blur the line between nuclear and solar. I'm not sure if we'll ever get to such a point before...
I guess it depends on if we get a chance to meaningfully develop tech like Dyson spheres, which would blur the line between nuclear and solar. I'm not sure if we'll ever get to such a point before humanity is wiped out.
Also, I personall think, that'd be overkill unless we enter a proper era of space exploration. Being able to fuse our own atoms closeby should be more than enough.
Oh, right now, I'd bet on collapse before Dyson Spheres. We can't even get to Mars. But I think it's a bit of a waste the the Sun just keeps putting out free energy like it's no one's business,...
Oh, right now, I'd bet on collapse before Dyson Spheres. We can't even get to Mars.
But I think it's a bit of a waste the the Sun just keeps putting out free energy like it's no one's business, and we're down here burning dead dinosaurs.
There are a lot of neighborhoods in some cities that only have street parking, they don't even have driveways. That population seems to be ignored by the EV push.
There are a lot of neighborhoods in some cities that only have street parking, they don't even have driveways. That population seems to be ignored by the EV push.
As a person in a neighborhood in a city that mostly has street parking, people with EVs just run a cable across the sidewalk. The sensible ones put in one of those cable protector ramp things to...
As a person in a neighborhood in a city that mostly has street parking, people with EVs just run a cable across the sidewalk. The sensible ones put in one of those cable protector ramp things to protect the cable from people walking/rolling over it and protect people from tripping on the cable.
It doesn't. I assume in environments where the sidewalks need to be shoveled such a situation would be less tenable, or homeowners would run cable under the sidewalk to a locked cabinet with the...
It doesn't. I assume in environments where the sidewalks need to be shoveled such a situation would be less tenable, or homeowners would run cable under the sidewalk to a locked cabinet with the charging equipment next to the curb. I've seen that a few times, but that's untenable unless you own and want to invest in the infrastructure.
As a Tesla owner, I’m definitely jumping off the EV train. 2 years ago we had a reservation for a second Tesla, but by the time our number came up, we cancelled and went for a hybrid. EVs are the...
As a Tesla owner, I’m definitely jumping off the EV train. 2 years ago we had a reservation for a second Tesla, but by the time our number came up, we cancelled and went for a hybrid. EVs are the cool, shiny things on the block (well maybe not so much now), but they are a lot less practical. We got much less car for our money with the Tesla (build quality, interior finishing, even the infotainment is lacking so much I might get a garmin), battery degradation means I won’t be handing my Tesla down to my kid, and if we want to go visit my parents we have to take the hybrid.
For us, the better solution has been getting e-bikes and using those to go around town as much as possible. In my opinion, it’s better to have a practical car for long trips, and substitute a car with walking or biking for local trips (if possible).
I just purchased a Tesla after test driving over a dozen different cars. I can agree on the build quality and interior finish - but the rest of the comments seem a little confusing. How is the...
I just purchased a Tesla after test driving over a dozen different cars. I can agree on the build quality and interior finish - but the rest of the comments seem a little confusing.
How is the infotainment lacking? I actually found in my test drives that the Tesla infotainment system was years ahead of all the competitors. In my previous vehicle I had to go to the dealership and pay over $100 every year to get the maps updated. Have you found another car/brand to have something better?
As for battery degradation - wouldn't you suffer similar vehicle degradation with a tradition ICE or hybrid as well? The average ICE will only last about ~10 years or 200,000 miles [1] [2] [3].
That's not considering that the engine will need constant maintenance during it's lifespan, and if not properly done, it will be shortened.
The average EV battery should last between 8 and 12 years [1] and most EV manufacturers offer an 8 or 10 year warranty on the batteries. It does not require the same maintenance that you would need to put into an ICE.
My family rented EVs 3 times for road trips to test if our range anxiety was real or not. We were never below 30% battery life for the trips each of which was hundreds of miles away from home. We were able to consistently find chargers along our routes without any pre-planning. A hybrid would be more convenient for this though, I'll admit.
Yeah as cool as Teslas were before Elon turned into a complete nutcase, the one thing holding me back was the lack of CarPlay. I will never buy a car without it. You won’t find me ever paying any...
Yeah as cool as Teslas were before Elon turned into a complete nutcase, the one thing holding me back was the lack of CarPlay. I will never buy a car without it. You won’t find me ever paying any kind of subscription on car features either.
Fair, in several of the cars we test drove we couldn't actually get CarPlay to work properly, which drove us from considering that as a factor. Without CarPlay or Android Auto as a factor the...
Fair, in several of the cars we test drove we couldn't actually get CarPlay to work properly, which drove us from considering that as a factor. Without CarPlay or Android Auto as a factor the Tesla infotainment is pretty solid in my opinion.
Was it wireless carplay? I've never had an issue with wired carplay, but wireless can be hit or miss depending on the car/head unit. My general recommendation is to look for a good wired carplay...
Was it wireless carplay? I've never had an issue with wired carplay, but wireless can be hit or miss depending on the car/head unit.
My general recommendation is to look for a good wired carplay implementation, and if wireless is important to you then you can buy a USB dongle that turns any wired carplay system wireless. I like this because a dongle can be easily replaced if it ever develops issues.
Have you actually used such a dongle? I've been thinking about buying one, but I'm very cheap and I don't want to buy something that doesn't work (or requires me to plug a paired dongle into the...
Have you actually used such a dongle? I've been thinking about buying one, but I'm very cheap and I don't want to buy something that doesn't work (or requires me to plug a paired dongle into the phone).
I bought myself an Android Auto one a month or two ago (AAwireless), so far I'm happy with it. The dongle did initially act like it was stuck in a reboot loop when I first connected it but the...
I bought myself an Android Auto one a month or two ago (AAwireless), so far I'm happy with it. The dongle did initially act like it was stuck in a reboot loop when I first connected it but the troubleshooting part of the companion app changed various settings and ended up with a stable setup. For long drives I'd still want to plug in the phone to maintain charge but for around town or shorter trips it's handy to just keep my phone in my pocket and not have to deal with remembering to both plug it in when I hop in and take it with me when I hop out.
I did also have a small issue with something in the combination of the dongle, its USB cable, and my cheap head unit creating enough electrical interference to intermittently fool my UHF radio into thinking there was an incoming signal and making a burst of static. That's a pretty edge case sort of situation though for most people and a clip on ferrite ring over the dongle cable sorted it out.
I have one. If you're going to get one, they go for like $35 on sale. It's okay.. I end up wanting to charge my phone anyway so I might as well plug in my phone and get rid of the slight lag that...
I have one. If you're going to get one, they go for like $35 on sale. It's okay.. I end up wanting to charge my phone anyway so I might as well plug in my phone and get rid of the slight lag that wireless introduces. I would not buy again.
I haven't yet, I'm debating one for the car I just bought. The better ones seem on the pricier side (around $100, as opposed to $50 for the cheap ones). I'll make sure to read through lots of user...
I haven't yet, I'm debating one for the car I just bought. The better ones seem on the pricier side (around $100, as opposed to $50 for the cheap ones). I'll make sure to read through lots of user reviews before making a decision.
I agree, I'm not arguing against electric cars, just Tesla. Though unfortunately GM has comitted to not including the feature in their EV's either, putting them on my shitlist too.
I agree, I'm not arguing against electric cars, just Tesla.
Though unfortunately GM has comitted to not including the feature in their EV's either, putting them on my shitlist too.
Those numbers seem to be nonsensical and likely based on how often someone can afford to buy a new car rather than how long an engine actually lasts. Here in Czechia the average age of a car is...
As for battery degradation - wouldn't you suffer similar vehicle degradation with a tradition ICE or hybrid as well? The average ICE will only last about ~10 years or 200,000 miles [1] [2] [3].
That's not considering that the engine will need constant maintenance during it's lifespan, and if not properly done, it will be shortened.
Those numbers seem to be nonsensical and likely based on how often someone can afford to buy a new car rather than how long an engine actually lasts. Here in Czechia the average age of a car is almost 16 years and when you exclude company cars it's almost 20. Since we have dense cities and towns and public transport, it is likely that the average mileage is lower than in the US, but that seems to be the only difference (plus some parts of cars aging are not connected to mileage, like exhaust rust, and some things are made worse by not driving it regularly).
Regarding the cost of ICE maintenance and its comparison to buying a new battery for an EV, it depends on the brand and quality. Due to EURO emission regulation newer ICE engines do not last as long and are more expensive to maintain than they used to be. Whether the maintenance is more expensive than buying a new EV battery over time, I don't know, with more expensive brands it's possible.
But imo the biggest EV issue financially is that with ICEs you still have the option to buy second hand without needing to care about the range decreasing and the whole cost of buying a new battery being shifted on you from the original owner. I drive a second hand ICE from 2008 which I purchased for about 2600 USD in 2014 in excellent shape and put only about 2000 USD in maintenance in it since then. It still does 700 km on a full tank and there have not been any major issues with it yet despite nearing its end of life, because it's a very simple car. This is not really an option with an EV and as a result I probably could not afford a car at all.
For the infotainment, my biggest issue is the navigation. In my area (Columbus, Ohio, a major US city) the directions are terrible. Quite often you’ll get things like “turn onto unnamed road”...
For the infotainment, my biggest issue is the navigation. In my area (Columbus, Ohio, a major US city) the directions are terrible. Quite often you’ll get things like “turn onto unnamed road” where unnamed road is a major highway. Or just last night the Tesla navigated my wife 30 minutes further, when Google maps took me directly home (we were driving two cars from the same spot). Add onto that constantly having to reboot the system because internet stops working, or the system just crashing on its own (especially when getting in the car after leaving it for a day). The rear view camera quite frequently is frozen, resulting in waiting 30-60 seconds before I can backup. Now a lot of this could be because I have a 2.5 computer, but almost every issue except the backup camera would be solved with CarPlay. The CarPlay in my wife’s car is a joy to use and works perfectly every time. I despise manufactures saying “our infotainment has all the features, why would you need CarPlay?”, and then they never update those features and it becomes less usable with every year (not to mention requiring a separate $10/month subscription).
As for longevity I’ll definitely admit my Tesla has needed very little work after the initial build issues. Only had the trunk wiring harness fail. It has 45k miles and has lost 40 miles of its range so far. By 100k it will start becoming difficult to really leave town with it. And with how much the car has depreciated, it’s going to have to be my daily driver for a very long time (55k->16k in 4 years).
As for the last point on roadtrips, I’ve got family that live in the countryside, 2-2.5 hours through smaller towns. Not a single charger around. The network works if you stick to major highways, but anything rural and your out of luck.
This is a concern for me, too. My car let out the magic smoke on Friday, and if it can't be repaired, I really don't want a car with an iPad instead of buttons and a CD player. But it's hard to...
This is a concern for me, too. My car let out the magic smoke on Friday, and if it can't be repaired, I really don't want a car with an iPad instead of buttons and a CD player. But it's hard to find a "dumb"/offline car that isn't almost as old as my current one.
Like the other poster, I am interested to find out what you feel the infotainment system is lacking. It seems to be one of the things about Teslas that is largely agreed is done well. I really...
Like the other poster, I am interested to find out what you feel the infotainment system is lacking. It seems to be one of the things about Teslas that is largely agreed is done well.
I really agree with your second point though. I haven't bought an e-bike yet, but I have replaced the overwhelming majority of my local trips with bike rides. While many people think I'm crazy for riding to work in a rain storm, I no longer have to pay for parking, gas, my insurance has gone down, and I'm getting exercise and more deeply exploring my neighborhood and surrounding neighborhoods. Polluting less is barely a side benefit to all the real benefits realized by biking more places. While I don't think that this is a solution for everyone, my parents, for example, live in the middle of nowhere and a bike ride to the store would take all day, I do think that if you live within most major city limits, your usage of a car can and should decrease significantly. I hope that ebikes can come down in price (I know, tariffs are incoming) to make them more accessible as well because they really make biking a pure pleasure.
I think you're missing a lot of key points (imo of course) The electricity grid has to be upgraded anyway: we need to move to an electricity based society because all electric appliances waste...
I think you're missing a lot of key points (imo of course)
The electricity grid has to be upgraded anyway: we need to move to an electricity based society because all electric appliances waste less energy and produce no air pollution. Heat pumps (300%) vs gas (90%), Induction stoves (~90%) vs gas stoves (30%) etc. This means that the argument about the grid is less relevant (not irrelevant though). Keep in mind that for biomass based diesel to work, we need to somehow farm, process and transport the resources, which is always less efficient than renewables. Here's a great video on this exact topic: https://youtu.be/EVJkq4iu7bk.
Renewables are cheap. Think about it: you plop a solar panel down and it passively produces electricity. This makes it so cheap in fact, that they are even cheaper after you take storage into account. This difference will only get bigger over time.
Batteries in cars do not have to be charged at peak demand. In fact, I think EVs will play a pivital role in balancing the grid by vehicle-to-grid technology.
Diesel outputs way more CO2 than gasoline.
No fuel is "clean" by definition. Have you ever stood behind a diesel bus? Exhaust fumes are a serious health risk and cause astma, early deaths and smog.
Minor thing: EVs are just plain better machines. The motor is dead simple and require almost no maintainance. Batteries degrade quite predictably and linearly in modern EVs. One pedal driving is amazing.
You make some reasonable points, and i have considered them when thinking about these issues. I’m still not persuaded that ev’s, considering every aspect direct and indirect, are a social...
You make some reasonable points, and i have considered them when thinking about these issues. I’m still not persuaded that ev’s, considering every aspect direct and indirect, are a social improvement. I’ll agree they emit less gas amd particulates, at least in operation.
Quick fact check: diesel does emit more co2 per gallon, but diesel cars emit less co2 per mile due to efficiency gains.
As I and others have said, the real issue is that we need to drive cars less, a whole lot less. Personal transport in large, heavy vehicles is a luxury whose social cost is too high, regardless of propulsion.
I wholehartedly agree on the last part as well, we should mainly focus on that. In the same way, I don't like that EVs are a cop out for the rich like you said. About the fact check, I don't...
I wholehartedly agree on the last part as well, we should mainly focus on that. In the same way, I don't like that EVs are a cop out for the rich like you said. About the fact check, I don't really get what you mean. Do you mean that diesel powered vehicles emit less per mile than EVs? Because I would highly doubt that. I would expect that those numbers come from some calculation made on a grid with very little renewables which is not really fair, since we are rapidly moving to more renewables. I would happily be proven wrong with some sources though, I'm also going to look for some on CO2 per mile for the lifecycle of EVs vs diesel cars.
Do those efficiency gains still exist after you reduce nitrous oxide emissions to match petrol (I.e. remove Volkswagen et al's dieselgate emission cheating)? There was a recent YouTube video by...
Quick fact check: diesel does emit more co2 per gallon, but diesel cars emit less co2 per mile due to efficiency gains.
Do those efficiency gains still exist after you reduce nitrous oxide emissions to match petrol (I.e. remove Volkswagen et al's dieselgate emission cheating)? There was a recent YouTube video by "driving 4 answers" on the subject and it sounds like diesel was driven by political convenience rather than a realistic expectation it would reduce emissions.
I agree. I'll be in the market for a new vehicle within the next few years and it's not going to be an EV. The closest I'd probably get to that is a PHEV, but nobody makes one that fits my needs....
I agree. I'll be in the market for a new vehicle within the next few years and it's not going to be an EV. The closest I'd probably get to that is a PHEV, but nobody makes one that fits my needs. Toyota is being a realist here when it comes to dealing with the challenges of EVs at mass scale.
I've been saying this for years now. Toyota's whole game is: Doing massive scale manufacturing, and doing it efficiently. Meeting market demand economically. EVs are still, for better or worse,...
I've been saying this for years now. Toyota's whole game is:
Doing massive scale manufacturing, and doing it efficiently.
Meeting market demand economically.
EVs are still, for better or worse, toys for people with significant disposable income, and I don't see that realistically changing anytime soon. They make many tradeoffs and the cost is not only significantly higher than a typical new car, but unlikely to change. (Lithium batteries are a mature technology manufactured on a large scale, and dramatically increasing demand will only increase prices, not lower them.) The average household in the US can barely afford a new car, let alone an EV.
Plus, Japan has some electrical grid quirks that are potential issues for EVs.
The economics of EVs simply do not line up with Toyota. When the time comes, they will crush every luxury car maker doing EVs in volume, but Toyota is never going to be early to the party.
Seems like a good option for apartment/condo dwellers and for people who take a lot of car trips who are concerned about EV charging stations not always being around.
The world’s largest carmaker said Tuesday that it would develop smaller internal combustion engines that are more optimized for hybrid vehicles and can accept alternative fuels such as biofuels, liquid hydrogen, and synthetic e-fuels in an effort to cut down on emissions. The CEOs of Subaru and Mazda also vowed to produce new engines, they said in a press conference with Toyota CEO Koji Sato Tuesday.
Seems like a good option for apartment/condo dwellers and for people who take a lot of car trips who are concerned about EV charging stations not always being around.
I'm likely going with a Toyota as my next car as a result of this. Personally I'm not a fan of EVs, as I don't think that the EV experience can match ICEs right now. I go on a lot of road trips...
I'm likely going with a Toyota as my next car as a result of this. Personally I'm not a fan of EVs, as I don't think that the EV experience can match ICEs right now. I go on a lot of road trips and don't like the idea of being forced to stop for 30+ minutes at charging stations -- Until charging time goes down the same amount of time it takes to fill up a gas tank, I'm not interested. I also worry about the availability of charging stations, because even where I am in the PNW (EV dominated area) they are few and far between, and are simply nonexistent in the more remote areas like the forests and mountains. Basically, I don't think the pure EVs can meet everyone's needs the same way ICE cars can, as EV technology, our infrastructure, and our way of life is just not ready for it yet. To me - PHEVs are honestly the perfect solution as they provide the best of both worlds, and I don't understand why there aren't more of them.
Though to be honest, I'm getting disillusioned with newer cars in general as more and more components are being computerized. Every time I rent a car or get a loaner, I am annoyed by having to turn off the "smart" driving features that continue to chime at me constantly - often having to turn them off every time I start the vehicle because they are on by default and the toggle isn't saved (Grrrr!). My dream car today would actually be if a manufacturer made a "dumb" ICE car, with just the basic required components for driving and moderate comforts, all controls being physical and mechanical. Instead I'm stuck buying aging 80s-90s cars that are quickly becoming more expensive to find parts for.
(edit to correct formatting mistake)
You don't think waiting an extra 15-20 minutes at a fuel stop would be worth saving 50% percent on said fuel? I usually stop for at least 20 minutes anyways to get some food and stretch my legs....
don't like the idea of being forced to stop for 30+ minutes at charging stations
You don't think waiting an extra 15-20 minutes at a fuel stop would be worth saving 50% percent on said fuel? I usually stop for at least 20 minutes anyways to get some food and stretch my legs.
Let's put it another way. Outside road trips, how much time do you spend per year at gas stations? All of that would go away entirely if you charge your EV in your garage each night.
I think we as a culture have this problem where we can't imagine things being slightly different than they are today if said difference comes with any new inconveniences, even if those inconveniences are outweighed by new benefits.
What I don't like is my vehicle dictating the pace and the availability of choices for stops I make on my road trip. I grew up on frequent road trips, and to me they are the ultimate expression of...
What I don't like is my vehicle dictating the pace and the availability of choices for stops I make on my road trip. I grew up on frequent road trips, and to me they are the ultimate expression of freedom - to be able to go anywhere, on your own timeline, enjoying the sights and destinations and escaping from the everyday routine. If a vehicle introduces restrictions on that freedom it's not for me. If I have to stop to charge my EV for such a lengthy time, I will be limited to exploring only the immediate area around the charging station for things like meal breaks, shopping, or sightseeing during that time. In an ICE or PHEV I can fill up anywhere I want in just a couple minutes, and then I have much more choice of destinations to explore during those breaks - moving on if there's nothing of interest instead of being held captive by my vehicles battery.
Gas stations didn't used to be ubiquitous either. Charging infrastructure is getting better every year, but trying to fight against widespread adoption of EVs will only make that take longer....
Gas stations didn't used to be ubiquitous either. Charging infrastructure is getting better every year, but trying to fight against widespread adoption of EVs will only make that take longer. There was always going to be a transition period that comes with growing pains.
I'm not telling you to go out and buy an EV today (I haven't, I bought a new hybrid truck last week), but prepare for a future where road trips will be a little different. Eventually the economies of gas infrastructure will begin to fall apart as demand for it goes down, changing the nature of road trips regardless of what kind of vehicle you drive.
What's certainly not worth it is being able to find a charger that's actually compatible with your vehicle. You have to pre-plan all of those 30-minute stops (assuming you find fast/super...
What's certainly not worth it is being able to find a charger that's actually compatible with your vehicle. You have to pre-plan all of those 30-minute stops (assuming you find fast/super chargers) throughout your road trips because chargers can be few and far between in many areas. Then you hope that it's actually available and functional when you get there. Oh, and you're having to do this with more frequency than an ICE vehicle due to the reduced range. The lack of charging options outside of your own garage makes owning an EV a huge pain for anyone who regularly takes trips longer than the range of the vehicle (which appears to be OC's situation, as well as mine), or doesn't have the ability to charge at their residence (which is just about anyone who rents).
You're also assuming a 50% cost savings, which is not always the case. The rates of public chargers vary from saving 50% to sometimes costing more than gas. EVs are fine for some people. They are sorely lacking for many of us, though.
As of this year, every EV on the market except the Nissan Leaf will support NACS. The Leaf is being phased out, so 100% of new EVs in NA will support NACS. Additionally, NACS is...
As of this year, every EV on the market except the Nissan Leaf will support NACS. The Leaf is being phased out, so 100% of new EVs in NA will support NACS. Additionally, NACS is backwards-compatible with CCS, which is the #2 most common charging standard in NA. I'm not sure about Europe, but I believe CCS is already the universal standard there, at least within the EU.
I've never seen anywhere where electricity is anywhere remotely close to the cost of gas, and that's even including peak energy rates with added parking fees. How exactly are you measuring this? Gas and electricity are not exactly like units.
You compare with cost per mile. In my area, gas is about $3.20/gal. A car that gets 35mpg is $0.09/mile. Using a similar size electric car (Tesla Model 3), that appears to be approximately 4.5...
You compare with cost per mile. In my area, gas is about $3.20/gal. A car that gets 35mpg is $0.09/mile. Using a similar size electric car (Tesla Model 3), that appears to be approximately 4.5 miles / kWh, which is 0.22kWh/mile. In order to match the cost of gas, the charging fees have to be $0.09/0.22kWh = $0.41/kWh or lower.
I pulled pricing of a random charger near me:
$0.99 flat rate
$0.37 per kWh, 12:00AM - 8:00AM
$0.43 per kWh, 8:00AM - 10:00AM
$0.50 per kWh, 10:00AM - 7:00PM
$0.43 per kWh, 7:00PM - 12:00AM
So the only time it's cheaper than gas is between 12am-8am, and that's excluding the flat rate charging fee (which you can apparently get around by paying some other monthly fee).
Assuming one has a garage or driveway, won’t most charging be happening at home though, often at night at off-peak times? Presumably charging stations have some amount of margin added compared to...
Assuming one has a garage or driveway, won’t most charging be happening at home though, often at night at off-peak times? Presumably charging stations have some amount of margin added compared to raw electricity prices.
It’s true that a lot of people don’t own a home, but depending on needs, a charger may not be expressly necessary. With just a 240v wall socket it’d take about 11 hours to charge a Model 3 Long...
It’s true that a lot of people don’t own a home, but depending on needs, a charger may not be expressly necessary. With just a 240v wall socket it’d take about 11 hours to charge a Model 3 Long Range to full 341mi capacity from zero, but realistically people are going to be coming back home with at least 20-40% charge making charging without a dedicated charger reasonable. Naturally more common lower range models can charge from a wall socket even more quickly.
In the US, the only place you'll find a 240V wall socket is behind the dryer or oven/range. Most people won't have this available for charging in a rental unit.
In the US, the only place you'll find a 240V wall socket is behind the dryer or oven/range. Most people won't have this available for charging in a rental unit.
This is a very US-centric view. Nowhere in my entire life have I been where there is an RV-outlet anywhere. Norway here. Electric vehicles are everywhere here these days though, because Tesla made...
This is a very US-centric view. Nowhere in my entire life have I been where there is an RV-outlet anywhere. Norway here. Electric vehicles are everywhere here these days though, because Tesla made some choices that had the government make it particularly cheap to get them as a business car. Slap a miniscule logo on it, and it qualified as "company vehicle" - meaning MANY people got one for very cheap.
Obviously not, but many Americans live in detached housing (70% according to Google, though I haven’t dug too deeply on this) with the home ownership rate sitting at around 65%, which is a lot of...
Obviously not, but many Americans live in detached housing (70% according to Google, though I haven’t dug too deeply on this) with the home ownership rate sitting at around 65%, which is a lot of people who can reasonably install a charger or at least a 240V plug.
Why are you picking 35 mph as your efficiency? I suppose that assumes a hybrid, but most people are averaging about 25 mpg for the vehicles currently on the road. This comparison is very sensitive...
Why are you picking 35 mph as your efficiency? I suppose that assumes a hybrid, but most people are averaging about 25 mpg for the vehicles currently on the road. This comparison is very sensitive to the assumed gas vehicle efficiency. And if you're able to charge at home most of the time you're paying substantially less than going to a commercial charging station ($0.12-$0.2/kWh in most of the US if I remember correctly).
I think it's just important to note that this is a very challenge comparison to make because the cost per mile for either vehicle is extremely sensitive to small changes in the assumed numbers using for the calculation. Small changes will swing it happy in favor of one vehicle or the other which is why I think it's important to be clear where your assumptions are coming from.
I picked a Toyota Corolla to compare, because it was similarly sized to the Model 3. Sure, most people are averaging about 25mpg but you're including large sedans and SUVs which I wasn't using in...
I picked a Toyota Corolla to compare, because it was similarly sized to the Model 3. Sure, most people are averaging about 25mpg but you're including large sedans and SUVs which I wasn't using in the EV comparison. But let's do an apples-to-apples comparison using the Ford F-150 on both ICE and EV platforms.
The F-150 gas gets about 22 mpg combined. At $3.20/gal, that's $0.14/mile. Best I can find, the F-150 Lightning gets about 2.1 miles/kWh combined (which seems to vary based on the weather, so this is an average). That's 0.47kWh/mile. In order to achieve the $/mile of gas, your charging rate has to be $0.14/0.47kWh which is $0.298/kWh or less. In that case, the cost of electric with the same charger that I showed above found is 27-72% more expensive. And that's after the fact that the F-150 lightning is $5-10k more (depending on options) than its equivalent ICE version.
The other interesting thing here is that this thread is really talking about road trips, and the need to stop and spend 30 minutes filling up. Chances are, on a long road trip, you're talking mostly highway miles. Fuel efficiency increases for ICE vehicles on the highway, and decreases for EVs. And that's quite unfortunate considering that range is already the Achilles heel of EVs.
Edit. Also, to address charging at home, I agree that the cost of charging at home is cheaper than gas. But this comment thread is about road trips, and there is a comment above about saving 50% on fuel in exchange for waiting 20 minutes for a charge which is false by my calculation. On a road trip, not only are you forced to wait 3-6x the time of filling up with gas, but you'll possibly be paying more too.
On electricity costs, there are some parts of the US where it’s substantially cheaper than gas. Where I live, based on the estimates of the car site Edmund’s, the ICE version of the car I’d likely...
On electricity costs, there are some parts of the US where it’s substantially cheaper than gas. Where I live, based on the estimates of the car site Edmund’s, the ICE version of the car I’d likely drive (something like a Honda Fit or at most a Civic) on average costs around $150-$200/mo more to drive than its electric counterpart.
I can’t help but agree with that statement, although I think it’s important to acknowledge that the infrastructure and engineering that ICE cars currently enjoy is a result of more than a century...
Basically, I don't think the pure EVs can meet everyone's needs the same way ICE cars can, as EV technology, our infrastructure, and our way of life is just not ready for it yet.
I can’t help but agree with that statement, although I think it’s important to acknowledge that the infrastructure and engineering that ICE cars currently enjoy is a result of more than a century of development time. From that perspective, BEVs have come a long way in a very short time, so I’m eager to see how things continue to develop over the next decade!
Toyota is being the realest, batteries aren't anything clean yet and I'm convinced we haven't reached peak efficiency. A novel engine capable of functioning on different fuels sounds like a...
Toyota is being the realest, batteries aren't anything clean yet and I'm convinced we haven't reached peak efficiency.
A novel engine capable of functioning on different fuels sounds like a logical step forward for traditional engine design.
Not surprised by this at all. People were quick to judge Toyota’s stance but forget a lot of things. This is the same Toyota that played a part in changing initial perceptions of poor quality in...
Not surprised by this at all. People were quick to judge Toyota’s stance but forget a lot of things.
This is the same Toyota that played a part in changing initial perceptions of poor quality in Japanese cars.
The same Toyota that brought us the Prius.
The same Toyota that companies try to imitate in management philosophy, being lean, promoting continuous improvement (kaizen).
They have always been, and continue to show that they have a focus in the long term, and that’s why they are the best automaker in my opinion.
On top of that they have rejuvenated a lot of the enthusiast offerings. Their previous CEO Akio Toyoda took on a pseudonym and participated in professional motorsports. I think all the fun stuff they released in recent years are in part reflection of his enthusiasm.
Toyota's anti-EV stance is exactly why we won't buy them anymore. The Japanese automakers are set to make tons of money in the short term by capitalizing on people's fears of EVs, at the expense...
Toyota's anti-EV stance is exactly why we won't buy them anymore. The Japanese automakers are set to make tons of money in the short term by capitalizing on people's fears of EVs, at the expense of falling behind in the long term.
I suppose I'm biased though, having been driving EVs for almost a decade. I've experienced the restrictions of an 80 mile range LEAF, 200 mile Ford Mach E relying on Electrify America for trips, and a 300 mile Tesla model 3 using superchargers. I could pretty confidently drive coast to coast in my model 3 without needing extensive planning, though the furthest I've actually done in a day is 750 miles.
We have a PHEV second car that my wife commutes in (30 miles of range, 24 mile round trip commute) but we don't use it for road trips, it's just not as good of a road trip vehicle (tighter space, lower safety ratings, higher costs). Our electricity is cheap hydro power at 5 cents per kwh, so our fuel costs are basically nothing (about $20 a month), so when we do need to use public chargers the costs don't matter too much.
If you don't have an option for home/work charging then it's still difficult to rely only on public charging, but that will improve in the future. So for now a hybrid is likely better in that situation, but eventually the difference won't be as big. There will always be people who won't be able to use an EV because they drive into the middle of nowhere for 400 miles and have to take extra fuel tanks, but most people vastly overestimate what they actually need.
I think you're looking at it from a western angle too much due to a lack of context. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, this focus by Toyota is largely due to issues with the power grid in...
If you don't want to read it all (which I encourage you to, but won't hold it against you given how long it is), there's a tl;dr with a bunch of bullet points that sums it up. The two most relevant ones to the current discussion are these:
*Busted electrical grid that will cost trillions to renovate, severely limiting your ability to mass deploy renewables to benefit industry and major population centers
*And yet there is no simple way, either through gas or electricity, to get energy in large quantities between urban centers in Japan
Again, highly recommend reading the post for a breakdown of just how bad the power grid situation is. It mentions initiatives by the Japanese government to limit energy consumption, and how the original commenter's office even had to shut down air conditioning one summer so they could run the machining centers without having to pay more, since "power was essentially rationed."
So Toyota is exploring options outside EVs because Japanese infrastructure isn't really equipped for chargers. Not in the "they just need to install more" sense, but the grid itself can't handle having all the chargers that would be necessary across the country for EVs to be viable on a large scale. Any EVs they'd produce would be primarily for foreign markets rather than domestic, so it makes sense they'd want to focus on options they themselves can use in their own country.
This paragraph from the comment seems like the best way to end it:
But if you can swap over your rural populace fairly pain free from propane tanks to hydrogen tanks for their heating (compared to rebuilding the entire electrical grid), repurpose your existing infrastructure and financial/trade networks for LNG slowly to transition them over to Hydrogen, keep your automotive industry going comparatively pain free by swapping to hydrogen rather than trying to figure out how to get chargers integrated literally everywhere on a creaky grid that can't handle its existing load
Some missing context that we’ve discussed on Tildes before is that Japan has a fairly poor electrical grid that will be difficult to upgrade. Toyota is motivated to find better solutions for the Japanese market. They can also sell in other markets where it’s a good fit.
More generally, I think we will have a hodgepodge of different kinds of transportation for different needs, with none of them going away. The trick is figuring out how to make them work together.
While Japan might have a poor electrical grid, the US has different issues when it comes to charging infrastructure (an overall lack of chargers). Toyota's solution solves both problems, which are both under the "charging infrastructure" umbrella.
It’s because Godzilla, ennit?
/sorry for the low effort post on such a serious site
Close. It's because they keep having to divert power to Evangelions.
The 50/60Hz issue and aversion to nuclear aside, what’s the problem with Japan’s electricity grid? Tons of solar here, few service interruptions in spite of having tons of above-ground power lines and rough annual rains.
@drannex wrote a long explanation in this topic. My understanding is that it's not just the 50/60 split; it's also divided further into regions with limited capacity between them?
I don't know a whole lot more about it, so I'll just refer you to that.
It’s the fact that it’s 100V single phase. Charging EVs from that is a complete non-starter.
Japan is also using something like 80% imported resources for energy production (gas and coal)
I applaud toyota for this. I’m still not persuaded that ev’s are a useful path to a sustainable future, not least of which they allow affluent to purchase otherwise horrible vehicles and pretend they are part of the solution.
A modern diesel burns clean and driven sensibly
rivals ev on efficiencyis pretty darn efficient. And we already have a good distribution network and it can be made with low effort from waste biomass. In a hybrid application you get a 500k mile service life (or more).Edit: for correction and to add:
Regardless of the straight energy and CO2 output calculations, there are a lot of other costs to EVs, many of them externalized to non-benefitting populations. Batteries are very nasty to produce and dispose of, even if that disposition is recycling, which happens a lot less often than anyone would like to think about. Electrical generation creates all kinds of costs. PV solar has the same drawbacks as batteries. Building new distribution infrastructure has all kinds of costs, and maintenance costs I do not believe track linearly (that is, I believe they increase at a faster rate as you add more). Also more poorly maintained infrastructure means more risk of wildfires, etc. EV's are also a lot heavier, creating a lot more load on the roadways which heretofore has been born equally by all taxpayers. They can also be more dangerous to pedestrians and wildlife. It's probably out there, but I haven't seen full cost analysis (actual cost, not just price) of use of ev vs. ICE. I would guess it edges out gasoline, but am not persuaded wrt diesel or other alternative fuels.
Edit 2: Euro envy: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/peugeot/308/359506/new-peugeot-308-diesel-2023-review
Not really. It’s been a while since I’ve last looked into it, but from briefly trying to recollect some info I got this:
And this is really favorable for ICEs. It’s not unfair to say the average gas car will more often be at 25-35% efficiency than 40-50%, in my view.
EVs win on thermodynamics alone. And that is completely ignoring the fact that power can be, and increasingly is, produced renewably, even locally; whereas diesel will always have to be imported (unless you have a refinery across the town, I guess), in addition to the local emissions.
And if you produce some form of gasoline from a non-oil source (e.g. plant-based), then that’s even higher efficiency losses due to the energy needed in that whole process.
Fair enough. Although I’d argue the subset of all vehicles this actually happens with is a really, really small one. And EVs have acceptable lifetimes too. Biggest consideration point is by far the battery, and that’s recyclable – it will always be more efficient to regain rare metals from batteries over newly dug material due to the concentration of it. Something like 99% usable materials vs. 0.1% per tonne of raw ore.
Zooming out to the bigger picture though, I agree with @Wafik. It’s right that EVs won’t save us. Less car usage (individual) might.
I think may have that wrong on operational efficiency at the engine. I think too, even if you factor in the waste from electricity generation and transmission, EV comes out on top, although the margin is significantly decreased after that calculation. "Miles per gallon equivalent" tries to capture this, although I strongly suspect MPGe figures are inflated.
Note diesel can be produced much more efficiently from biomass than gasoline (or gasoline substitutes like ethanol, afaik gasoline cannot be produced from biomass). This is both in terms of process and feed material. For example, diesel can be made from simple digestion of cellulose, whereas ethanol requires starch and a lot of cooking. Cellulose can be grown from perennial plants with very limited soil amendments (see, e.g., kudzu or miscanthus).
But we're all right-car culture must change in a sustainable future. Note that, done right, getting people out of cars has many individual health benefits besides a hospitable climate and all the other macro environmental health considerations.
The reality is that none of it is enough and we need more radical solutions. In North America, that likely means completely changing our car culture. Since that is unlikely, then a combination of approaches is probably needed. I'm more positive about EVs than it sounds like you are, but forcing everyone onto only EVs as many governments are doing seems short sighted unless there is significant investment in charging infrastructure. Until that day, I think there is a decent argument to be made for two car house holds to have one EV and one ICE. A small EV is superior for a daily commute and running around while ICE is going to remain better for longer road trips for many people.
Just as a very sad aside, in my state (and possibly the entire United States), it is illegal to install charging stations in interstate rest areas. That is one of the most WTF policies I've run across recently.
It's not really different from prohibiting a gas station - you can only sell a few items at rest stops - food, beverages, lottery tickets apparently though I've never seen that. So it requires a law, and we know how good Congress is about passing those lately.
But whatever would be installed would need to not just be the equivalent of letting Shell put up a gas pump, and would need some regulation since it's public land and such.
At the very least, I think we should encourage any who EVs are practical for to move over to them.
Take my case: I work from home and live in a single family home with both a garage and parking spot, with ample space in the breaker box to install a charger. I drive infrequently enough that getting by charging from a plain old wall socket would be fine. Trips are usually far away enough that driving isn’t practical, meaning if I’m driving it’s well with a 100mi radius 99% of the time.
In my situation, regular ICE vehicles are hard to justify, and the gas burning components of a plug-in hybrid are almost always dead weight. A small EV would be a the best fit by far.
My situation may not be typical, but even the small percentage of the US population who share it is a lot of people and moving them all over could make a meaningful impact.
Yeah situations like yours or mine are ideal for EVs. I don't have a garage but I had a 14-50 NEMA plug installed on the side of my house and charged there daily. My daily commute is 110km, 5 days a week and I rarely go somewhere outside my range that would require fast charging. I also have an old man's Blatter so I'm rarely driving longer than my batteries full charge without needing to stop anyways. But I know that is not everyone's case.
Like many people, I live in an apartment with no parking or charging infrastructure. I also work at home. I honestly don't drive much but an EV would be very inconvenient.
I also wonder about the overall demand for electric power, between cars, data centers, increased cooling demand because of climate change etc
Ultimately low cost energy would solve this all yet it's getting more and more expensive, would be interesting to see a breakdown as to why it's risen so much over the last 20 years. Should have more than ever, cheaper than ever.
As of now, a majority of people aren’t (yet?) working from home, meaning their job parking can and should be able to sufficiently provide for charging. New residential construction should include a minimum of charging infrastructure, although, despite not knowing where you live I’m fairly certain that’s not the case for your area, just as it isn’t for mine, unfortunately.
This is the real question. Grid load is already becoming a topic, and if every house in the street has at minimum one vehicle that it wants to charge overnight, suddenly the grid requirements are completely different. At the same time, decentralized production and storage is immensely scalable. It will be interesting to see what prevails (aka if construction incentives to build out photovoltaics on every roof and include battery storages in some/most homes are high enough).
Shouldn't the govt and EV manufacturers provide the charging infrastructure? Or at least give incentives for privately owned charging points, not force it.
Residential developments are having charging points here and people will happily pay extra for it imo because they want to be future safe with homes.
Yes, that is exactly what I meant, you just worded it better (clearly defining who’s responsible is always a good thing).
Unfortunately businesses don’t have an inherent interest in that; since most office space is rented out, it’s only about their ongoing costs, not so much about in investments in an appreciating assets… Government would definitely have to step in, but unfortunately doesn’t, for the most part.
Yep, until apartments/condos starting installing more charging or even just basic plugs I would never own an EV if I was in that situation.
The power demands are real. Realistically, we need to use more nuclear power to help but everyone is so afraid of it.
Everything else aside, I think nuclear is already too slow — any project that starts in 2024 will likely be a decade or two before it starts providing output, even if it got a government-sized push to speed up construction. That’s not to say this fact should be used as an excuse to never build nuclear, but it’s not a solution that will increase electricity generation before 2040. If those are the scales you’re looking at, then yeah it’s a good idea, but I just feel like it’s important to look at generation that can be up and running within a few years, not decades, if we’re talking about EV charging
You're not wrong but if we have a mass adoption of EVs we are going to need that power generation even if it is 20 years out.
Probably some fear, but the efficiency of nuclear power is just isn't as high as people want to believe. Fission uses a lot of energy and needs to work at a large scale to get gains. Practical Fusion is still sci-fi as of now (though I do believe we'll see it in our lifetimes).
I do think nuclear is the endgame, but we need stopgaps in the meantime (assuming large cities don't fundamentally restructure the need for cars away).
I mean, it's similar to fossil fuels, but cleaner and with a more modern plant could potentially be higher. It's not perfect but needed.
I can't see how solar isn't the ultimate endgame. There's a giant nuclear engine putting up power for free up there, and we barely do anything with it.
I guess it depends on if we get a chance to meaningfully develop tech like Dyson spheres, which would blur the line between nuclear and solar. I'm not sure if we'll ever get to such a point before humanity is wiped out.
Also, I personall think, that'd be overkill unless we enter a proper era of space exploration. Being able to fuse our own atoms closeby should be more than enough.
Oh, right now, I'd bet on collapse before Dyson Spheres. We can't even get to Mars.
But I think it's a bit of a waste the the Sun just keeps putting out free energy like it's no one's business, and we're down here burning dead dinosaurs.
There are a lot of neighborhoods in some cities that only have street parking, they don't even have driveways. That population seems to be ignored by the EV push.
I'm not sure if this is a thing anywhere in the US, but there are places in Europe where there's street parking with charging infrastructure.
Possibly it is somewhere, but not where I live.
As a person in a neighborhood in a city that mostly has street parking, people with EVs just run a cable across the sidewalk. The sensible ones put in one of those cable protector ramp things to protect the cable from people walking/rolling over it and protect people from tripping on the cable.
What happens when it snows?
It doesn't. I assume in environments where the sidewalks need to be shoveled such a situation would be less tenable, or homeowners would run cable under the sidewalk to a locked cabinet with the charging equipment next to the curb. I've seen that a few times, but that's untenable unless you own and want to invest in the infrastructure.
I'm lucky to get a space half a block away
As a Tesla owner, I’m definitely jumping off the EV train. 2 years ago we had a reservation for a second Tesla, but by the time our number came up, we cancelled and went for a hybrid. EVs are the cool, shiny things on the block (well maybe not so much now), but they are a lot less practical. We got much less car for our money with the Tesla (build quality, interior finishing, even the infotainment is lacking so much I might get a garmin), battery degradation means I won’t be handing my Tesla down to my kid, and if we want to go visit my parents we have to take the hybrid.
For us, the better solution has been getting e-bikes and using those to go around town as much as possible. In my opinion, it’s better to have a practical car for long trips, and substitute a car with walking or biking for local trips (if possible).
I just purchased a Tesla after test driving over a dozen different cars. I can agree on the build quality and interior finish - but the rest of the comments seem a little confusing.
How is the infotainment lacking? I actually found in my test drives that the Tesla infotainment system was years ahead of all the competitors. In my previous vehicle I had to go to the dealership and pay over $100 every year to get the maps updated. Have you found another car/brand to have something better?
As for battery degradation - wouldn't you suffer similar vehicle degradation with a tradition ICE or hybrid as well? The average ICE will only last about ~10 years or 200,000 miles [1] [2] [3].
That's not considering that the engine will need constant maintenance during it's lifespan, and if not properly done, it will be shortened.
The average EV battery should last between 8 and 12 years [1] and most EV manufacturers offer an 8 or 10 year warranty on the batteries. It does not require the same maintenance that you would need to put into an ICE.
My family rented EVs 3 times for road trips to test if our range anxiety was real or not. We were never below 30% battery life for the trips each of which was hundreds of miles away from home. We were able to consistently find chargers along our routes without any pre-planning. A hybrid would be more convenient for this though, I'll admit.
Well Tesla refuses to support CarPlay and Android Auto, so their infotainment is already a complete non-starter for me.
Yeah as cool as Teslas were before Elon turned into a complete nutcase, the one thing holding me back was the lack of CarPlay. I will never buy a car without it. You won’t find me ever paying any kind of subscription on car features either.
Fair, in several of the cars we test drove we couldn't actually get CarPlay to work properly, which drove us from considering that as a factor. Without CarPlay or Android Auto as a factor the Tesla infotainment is pretty solid in my opinion.
Was it wireless carplay? I've never had an issue with wired carplay, but wireless can be hit or miss depending on the car/head unit.
My general recommendation is to look for a good wired carplay implementation, and if wireless is important to you then you can buy a USB dongle that turns any wired carplay system wireless. I like this because a dongle can be easily replaced if it ever develops issues.
Have you actually used such a dongle? I've been thinking about buying one, but I'm very cheap and I don't want to buy something that doesn't work (or requires me to plug a paired dongle into the phone).
I bought myself an Android Auto one a month or two ago (AAwireless), so far I'm happy with it. The dongle did initially act like it was stuck in a reboot loop when I first connected it but the troubleshooting part of the companion app changed various settings and ended up with a stable setup. For long drives I'd still want to plug in the phone to maintain charge but for around town or shorter trips it's handy to just keep my phone in my pocket and not have to deal with remembering to both plug it in when I hop in and take it with me when I hop out.
I did also have a small issue with something in the combination of the dongle, its USB cable, and my cheap head unit creating enough electrical interference to intermittently fool my UHF radio into thinking there was an incoming signal and making a burst of static. That's a pretty edge case sort of situation though for most people and a clip on ferrite ring over the dongle cable sorted it out.
I have one. If you're going to get one, they go for like $35 on sale. It's okay.. I end up wanting to charge my phone anyway so I might as well plug in my phone and get rid of the slight lag that wireless introduces. I would not buy again.
I haven't yet, I'm debating one for the car I just bought. The better ones seem on the pricier side (around $100, as opposed to $50 for the cheap ones). I'll make sure to read through lots of user reviews before making a decision.
Yeah, it was wireless. I don’t think the car supported a wired connection.
They should support wired, since that is how the connection is first negotiated. At least it is on all the wireless units I've worked with.
That's a Tesla problem not an EV problem.
I agree, I'm not arguing against electric cars, just Tesla.
Though unfortunately GM has comitted to not including the feature in their EV's either, putting them on my shitlist too.
Those numbers seem to be nonsensical and likely based on how often someone can afford to buy a new car rather than how long an engine actually lasts. Here in Czechia the average age of a car is almost 16 years and when you exclude company cars it's almost 20. Since we have dense cities and towns and public transport, it is likely that the average mileage is lower than in the US, but that seems to be the only difference (plus some parts of cars aging are not connected to mileage, like exhaust rust, and some things are made worse by not driving it regularly).
Regarding the cost of ICE maintenance and its comparison to buying a new battery for an EV, it depends on the brand and quality. Due to EURO emission regulation newer ICE engines do not last as long and are more expensive to maintain than they used to be. Whether the maintenance is more expensive than buying a new EV battery over time, I don't know, with more expensive brands it's possible.
But imo the biggest EV issue financially is that with ICEs you still have the option to buy second hand without needing to care about the range decreasing and the whole cost of buying a new battery being shifted on you from the original owner. I drive a second hand ICE from 2008 which I purchased for about 2600 USD in 2014 in excellent shape and put only about 2000 USD in maintenance in it since then. It still does 700 km on a full tank and there have not been any major issues with it yet despite nearing its end of life, because it's a very simple car. This is not really an option with an EV and as a result I probably could not afford a car at all.
For the infotainment, my biggest issue is the navigation. In my area (Columbus, Ohio, a major US city) the directions are terrible. Quite often you’ll get things like “turn onto unnamed road” where unnamed road is a major highway. Or just last night the Tesla navigated my wife 30 minutes further, when Google maps took me directly home (we were driving two cars from the same spot). Add onto that constantly having to reboot the system because internet stops working, or the system just crashing on its own (especially when getting in the car after leaving it for a day). The rear view camera quite frequently is frozen, resulting in waiting 30-60 seconds before I can backup. Now a lot of this could be because I have a 2.5 computer, but almost every issue except the backup camera would be solved with CarPlay. The CarPlay in my wife’s car is a joy to use and works perfectly every time. I despise manufactures saying “our infotainment has all the features, why would you need CarPlay?”, and then they never update those features and it becomes less usable with every year (not to mention requiring a separate $10/month subscription).
As for longevity I’ll definitely admit my Tesla has needed very little work after the initial build issues. Only had the trunk wiring harness fail. It has 45k miles and has lost 40 miles of its range so far. By 100k it will start becoming difficult to really leave town with it. And with how much the car has depreciated, it’s going to have to be my daily driver for a very long time (55k->16k in 4 years).
As for the last point on roadtrips, I’ve got family that live in the countryside, 2-2.5 hours through smaller towns. Not a single charger around. The network works if you stick to major highways, but anything rural and your out of luck.
I drive a hybrid from before 2008, partly because I don't want to connect to the Internet
This is a concern for me, too. My car let out the magic smoke on Friday, and if it can't be repaired, I really don't want a car with an iPad instead of buttons and a CD player. But it's hard to find a "dumb"/offline car that isn't almost as old as my current one.
Like the other poster, I am interested to find out what you feel the infotainment system is lacking. It seems to be one of the things about Teslas that is largely agreed is done well.
I really agree with your second point though. I haven't bought an e-bike yet, but I have replaced the overwhelming majority of my local trips with bike rides. While many people think I'm crazy for riding to work in a rain storm, I no longer have to pay for parking, gas, my insurance has gone down, and I'm getting exercise and more deeply exploring my neighborhood and surrounding neighborhoods. Polluting less is barely a side benefit to all the real benefits realized by biking more places. While I don't think that this is a solution for everyone, my parents, for example, live in the middle of nowhere and a bike ride to the store would take all day, I do think that if you live within most major city limits, your usage of a car can and should decrease significantly. I hope that ebikes can come down in price (I know, tariffs are incoming) to make them more accessible as well because they really make biking a pure pleasure.
Put my thoughts in a comment to the other poster!
What is it lacking?
CarPlay support, IIRC.
Put my thoughts in a comment to the other poster!
I think you're missing a lot of key points (imo of course)
You make some reasonable points, and i have considered them when thinking about these issues. I’m still not persuaded that ev’s, considering every aspect direct and indirect, are a social improvement. I’ll agree they emit less gas amd particulates, at least in operation.
Quick fact check: diesel does emit more co2 per gallon, but diesel cars emit less co2 per mile due to efficiency gains.
As I and others have said, the real issue is that we need to drive cars less, a whole lot less. Personal transport in large, heavy vehicles is a luxury whose social cost is too high, regardless of propulsion.
I wholehartedly agree on the last part as well, we should mainly focus on that. In the same way, I don't like that EVs are a cop out for the rich like you said. About the fact check, I don't really get what you mean. Do you mean that diesel powered vehicles emit less per mile than EVs? Because I would highly doubt that. I would expect that those numbers come from some calculation made on a grid with very little renewables which is not really fair, since we are rapidly moving to more renewables. I would happily be proven wrong with some sources though, I'm also going to look for some on CO2 per mile for the lifecycle of EVs vs diesel cars.
Sorry for confusion, the comparison is diesel to gasoline ice (which is what I thought your original statement involved).
No you are right about that, I indeed stated that diesel cars are more eficcient than gasoline cars.
Do those efficiency gains still exist after you reduce nitrous oxide emissions to match petrol (I.e. remove Volkswagen et al's dieselgate emission cheating)? There was a recent YouTube video by "driving 4 answers" on the subject and it sounds like diesel was driven by political convenience rather than a realistic expectation it would reduce emissions.
Agreed on second paragraph btw
I agree. I'll be in the market for a new vehicle within the next few years and it's not going to be an EV. The closest I'd probably get to that is a PHEV, but nobody makes one that fits my needs. Toyota is being a realist here when it comes to dealing with the challenges of EVs at mass scale.
I've been saying this for years now. Toyota's whole game is:
Doing massive scale manufacturing, and doing it efficiently.
Meeting market demand economically.
EVs are still, for better or worse, toys for people with significant disposable income, and I don't see that realistically changing anytime soon. They make many tradeoffs and the cost is not only significantly higher than a typical new car, but unlikely to change. (Lithium batteries are a mature technology manufactured on a large scale, and dramatically increasing demand will only increase prices, not lower them.) The average household in the US can barely afford a new car, let alone an EV.
Plus, Japan has some electrical grid quirks that are potential issues for EVs.
The economics of EVs simply do not line up with Toyota. When the time comes, they will crush every luxury car maker doing EVs in volume, but Toyota is never going to be early to the party.
Seems like a good option for apartment/condo dwellers and for people who take a lot of car trips who are concerned about EV charging stations not always being around.
I'm likely going with a Toyota as my next car as a result of this. Personally I'm not a fan of EVs, as I don't think that the EV experience can match ICEs right now. I go on a lot of road trips and don't like the idea of being forced to stop for 30+ minutes at charging stations -- Until charging time goes down the same amount of time it takes to fill up a gas tank, I'm not interested. I also worry about the availability of charging stations, because even where I am in the PNW (EV dominated area) they are few and far between, and are simply nonexistent in the more remote areas like the forests and mountains. Basically, I don't think the pure EVs can meet everyone's needs the same way ICE cars can, as EV technology, our infrastructure, and our way of life is just not ready for it yet. To me - PHEVs are honestly the perfect solution as they provide the best of both worlds, and I don't understand why there aren't more of them.
Though to be honest, I'm getting disillusioned with newer cars in general as more and more components are being computerized. Every time I rent a car or get a loaner, I am annoyed by having to turn off the "smart" driving features that continue to chime at me constantly - often having to turn them off every time I start the vehicle because they are on by default and the toggle isn't saved (Grrrr!). My dream car today would actually be if a manufacturer made a "dumb" ICE car, with just the basic required components for driving and moderate comforts, all controls being physical and mechanical. Instead I'm stuck buying aging 80s-90s cars that are quickly becoming more expensive to find parts for.
(edit to correct formatting mistake)
You don't think waiting an extra 15-20 minutes at a fuel stop would be worth saving 50% percent on said fuel? I usually stop for at least 20 minutes anyways to get some food and stretch my legs.
Let's put it another way. Outside road trips, how much time do you spend per year at gas stations? All of that would go away entirely if you charge your EV in your garage each night.
I think we as a culture have this problem where we can't imagine things being slightly different than they are today if said difference comes with any new inconveniences, even if those inconveniences are outweighed by new benefits.
What I don't like is my vehicle dictating the pace and the availability of choices for stops I make on my road trip. I grew up on frequent road trips, and to me they are the ultimate expression of freedom - to be able to go anywhere, on your own timeline, enjoying the sights and destinations and escaping from the everyday routine. If a vehicle introduces restrictions on that freedom it's not for me. If I have to stop to charge my EV for such a lengthy time, I will be limited to exploring only the immediate area around the charging station for things like meal breaks, shopping, or sightseeing during that time. In an ICE or PHEV I can fill up anywhere I want in just a couple minutes, and then I have much more choice of destinations to explore during those breaks - moving on if there's nothing of interest instead of being held captive by my vehicles battery.
Gas stations didn't used to be ubiquitous either. Charging infrastructure is getting better every year, but trying to fight against widespread adoption of EVs will only make that take longer. There was always going to be a transition period that comes with growing pains.
I'm not telling you to go out and buy an EV today (I haven't, I bought a new hybrid truck last week), but prepare for a future where road trips will be a little different. Eventually the economies of gas infrastructure will begin to fall apart as demand for it goes down, changing the nature of road trips regardless of what kind of vehicle you drive.
What's certainly not worth it is being able to find a charger that's actually compatible with your vehicle. You have to pre-plan all of those 30-minute stops (assuming you find fast/super chargers) throughout your road trips because chargers can be few and far between in many areas. Then you hope that it's actually available and functional when you get there. Oh, and you're having to do this with more frequency than an ICE vehicle due to the reduced range. The lack of charging options outside of your own garage makes owning an EV a huge pain for anyone who regularly takes trips longer than the range of the vehicle (which appears to be OC's situation, as well as mine), or doesn't have the ability to charge at their residence (which is just about anyone who rents).
You're also assuming a 50% cost savings, which is not always the case. The rates of public chargers vary from saving 50% to sometimes costing more than gas. EVs are fine for some people. They are sorely lacking for many of us, though.
As of this year, every EV on the market except the Nissan Leaf will support NACS. The Leaf is being phased out, so 100% of new EVs in NA will support NACS. Additionally, NACS is backwards-compatible with CCS, which is the #2 most common charging standard in NA. I'm not sure about Europe, but I believe CCS is already the universal standard there, at least within the EU.
I've never seen anywhere where electricity is anywhere remotely close to the cost of gas, and that's even including peak energy rates with added parking fees. How exactly are you measuring this? Gas and electricity are not exactly like units.
You compare with cost per mile. In my area, gas is about $3.20/gal. A car that gets 35mpg is $0.09/mile. Using a similar size electric car (Tesla Model 3), that appears to be approximately 4.5 miles / kWh, which is 0.22kWh/mile. In order to match the cost of gas, the charging fees have to be $0.09/0.22kWh = $0.41/kWh or lower.
I pulled pricing of a random charger near me:
$0.99 flat rate
$0.37 per kWh, 12:00AM - 8:00AM
$0.43 per kWh, 8:00AM - 10:00AM
$0.50 per kWh, 10:00AM - 7:00PM
$0.43 per kWh, 7:00PM - 12:00AM
So the only time it's cheaper than gas is between 12am-8am, and that's excluding the flat rate charging fee (which you can apparently get around by paying some other monthly fee).
Assuming one has a garage or driveway, won’t most charging be happening at home though, often at night at off-peak times? Presumably charging stations have some amount of margin added compared to raw electricity prices.
Sure, assuming one owns their own home or their landlord was nice enough to install a charger, which is just not the case for many millions of people.
It’s true that a lot of people don’t own a home, but depending on needs, a charger may not be expressly necessary. With just a 240v wall socket it’d take about 11 hours to charge a Model 3 Long Range to full 341mi capacity from zero, but realistically people are going to be coming back home with at least 20-40% charge making charging without a dedicated charger reasonable. Naturally more common lower range models can charge from a wall socket even more quickly.
In the US, the only place you'll find a 240V wall socket is behind the dryer or oven/range. Most people won't have this available for charging in a rental unit.
A lot of places have an RV outlet, but it very much depends on the area and the time they were built.
This is a very US-centric view. Nowhere in my entire life have I been where there is an RV-outlet anywhere. Norway here. Electric vehicles are everywhere here these days though, because Tesla made some choices that had the government make it particularly cheap to get them as a business car. Slap a miniscule logo on it, and it qualified as "company vehicle" - meaning MANY people got one for very cheap.
In an apartment?
Obviously not, but many Americans live in detached housing (70% according to Google, though I haven’t dug too deeply on this) with the home ownership rate sitting at around 65%, which is a lot of people who can reasonably install a charger or at least a 240V plug.
Why are you picking 35 mph as your efficiency? I suppose that assumes a hybrid, but most people are averaging about 25 mpg for the vehicles currently on the road. This comparison is very sensitive to the assumed gas vehicle efficiency. And if you're able to charge at home most of the time you're paying substantially less than going to a commercial charging station ($0.12-$0.2/kWh in most of the US if I remember correctly).
I think it's just important to note that this is a very challenge comparison to make because the cost per mile for either vehicle is extremely sensitive to small changes in the assumed numbers using for the calculation. Small changes will swing it happy in favor of one vehicle or the other which is why I think it's important to be clear where your assumptions are coming from.
I picked a Toyota Corolla to compare, because it was similarly sized to the Model 3. Sure, most people are averaging about 25mpg but you're including large sedans and SUVs which I wasn't using in the EV comparison. But let's do an apples-to-apples comparison using the Ford F-150 on both ICE and EV platforms.
The F-150 gas gets about 22 mpg combined. At $3.20/gal, that's $0.14/mile. Best I can find, the F-150 Lightning gets about 2.1 miles/kWh combined (which seems to vary based on the weather, so this is an average). That's 0.47kWh/mile. In order to achieve the $/mile of gas, your charging rate has to be $0.14/0.47kWh which is $0.298/kWh or less. In that case, the cost of electric with the same charger that I showed above found is 27-72% more expensive. And that's after the fact that the F-150 lightning is $5-10k more (depending on options) than its equivalent ICE version.
The other interesting thing here is that this thread is really talking about road trips, and the need to stop and spend 30 minutes filling up. Chances are, on a long road trip, you're talking mostly highway miles. Fuel efficiency increases for ICE vehicles on the highway, and decreases for EVs. And that's quite unfortunate considering that range is already the Achilles heel of EVs.
Edit. Also, to address charging at home, I agree that the cost of charging at home is cheaper than gas. But this comment thread is about road trips, and there is a comment above about saving 50% on fuel in exchange for waiting 20 minutes for a charge which is false by my calculation. On a road trip, not only are you forced to wait 3-6x the time of filling up with gas, but you'll possibly be paying more too.
On electricity costs, there are some parts of the US where it’s substantially cheaper than gas. Where I live, based on the estimates of the car site Edmund’s, the ICE version of the car I’d likely drive (something like a Honda Fit or at most a Civic) on average costs around $150-$200/mo more to drive than its electric counterpart.
I can’t help but agree with that statement, although I think it’s important to acknowledge that the infrastructure and engineering that ICE cars currently enjoy is a result of more than a century of development time. From that perspective, BEVs have come a long way in a very short time, so I’m eager to see how things continue to develop over the next decade!
Toyota is being the realest, batteries aren't anything clean yet and I'm convinced we haven't reached peak efficiency.
A novel engine capable of functioning on different fuels sounds like a logical step forward for traditional engine design.
Not surprised by this at all. People were quick to judge Toyota’s stance but forget a lot of things.
This is the same Toyota that played a part in changing initial perceptions of poor quality in Japanese cars.
The same Toyota that brought us the Prius.
The same Toyota that companies try to imitate in management philosophy, being lean, promoting continuous improvement (kaizen).
They have always been, and continue to show that they have a focus in the long term, and that’s why they are the best automaker in my opinion.
On top of that they have rejuvenated a lot of the enthusiast offerings. Their previous CEO Akio Toyoda took on a pseudonym and participated in professional motorsports. I think all the fun stuff they released in recent years are in part reflection of his enthusiasm.
Don't forget Toyota's AAA+ stamp of approval from terrorists and militias around the world. (joking/not joking)
Toyota's anti-EV stance is exactly why we won't buy them anymore. The Japanese automakers are set to make tons of money in the short term by capitalizing on people's fears of EVs, at the expense of falling behind in the long term.
I suppose I'm biased though, having been driving EVs for almost a decade. I've experienced the restrictions of an 80 mile range LEAF, 200 mile Ford Mach E relying on Electrify America for trips, and a 300 mile Tesla model 3 using superchargers. I could pretty confidently drive coast to coast in my model 3 without needing extensive planning, though the furthest I've actually done in a day is 750 miles.
We have a PHEV second car that my wife commutes in (30 miles of range, 24 mile round trip commute) but we don't use it for road trips, it's just not as good of a road trip vehicle (tighter space, lower safety ratings, higher costs). Our electricity is cheap hydro power at 5 cents per kwh, so our fuel costs are basically nothing (about $20 a month), so when we do need to use public chargers the costs don't matter too much.
If you don't have an option for home/work charging then it's still difficult to rely only on public charging, but that will improve in the future. So for now a hybrid is likely better in that situation, but eventually the difference won't be as big. There will always be people who won't be able to use an EV because they drive into the middle of nowhere for 400 miles and have to take extra fuel tanks, but most people vastly overestimate what they actually need.
I think you're looking at it from a western angle too much due to a lack of context. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, this focus by Toyota is largely due to issues with the power grid in Japan. This comment (also linked by skybrian a couple hours ago) on a previous post about Toyota focusing on hydrogen explains the issues in FAR more detail. Their electric grid is just a giant mess that's heavily dependent on imported resources, and pretty much all of Japan operates on limited electricity.
If you don't want to read it all (which I encourage you to, but won't hold it against you given how long it is), there's a tl;dr with a bunch of bullet points that sums it up. The two most relevant ones to the current discussion are these:
Again, highly recommend reading the post for a breakdown of just how bad the power grid situation is. It mentions initiatives by the Japanese government to limit energy consumption, and how the original commenter's office even had to shut down air conditioning one summer so they could run the machining centers without having to pay more, since "power was essentially rationed."
So Toyota is exploring options outside EVs because Japanese infrastructure isn't really equipped for chargers. Not in the "they just need to install more" sense, but the grid itself can't handle having all the chargers that would be necessary across the country for EVs to be viable on a large scale. Any EVs they'd produce would be primarily for foreign markets rather than domestic, so it makes sense they'd want to focus on options they themselves can use in their own country.
This paragraph from the comment seems like the best way to end it: