Has anyone stopped caring about politics?
I don't follow politics anymore.
I wasn't always like this. I used to be a good liberal; I went to demonstrations, paid close attention to every SCOTUS decision, kept up with everything that went to shit during the first Trump presidency, etc. I wrote my representative about things that still needed to be undone. I would feel anxious regarding the state of the future. I followed the day-to-day of the Mueller investigation. I joined a small group that read political theory and philosophy. I'd try eagerly to defend my values to friends, family, and coworkers. I wanted to do my part to make this world a better place!
I learned about historical materialism, and this tracked with me in a way liberal idealism never did. The US isn't this pinnacle, this culmination of moral progress humanity achieved, but like every society that came before it a small ruling class that exploits a larger group. Liberal democracy itself is a product of changing material conditions. And like every other exploited class before me, I held to the ideology of my society (liberalism) and I believed my exploitation was just. I used to dismiss this framing as hippie nonsense, but it turns out this is a bedrock for much current sociology. Slowly, this plus Trump plus COVID broke me from trying to reason with conservatives or care about changing minds.
I don't know what the solution to anything is. I doubt that materialism is true, though I still think the framing is useful. I still vote, but as a basic bit of harm reduction. I no longer feel invested in seeing the US succeed as a bastion of liberal democracy. I have no pride in liberal accomplishments and feel no surprise in reactionary successes. I don't care that Trump was indicted. I wasn't shocked that Roe was overturn. I can't do anything about the Chevron decision. I would've lost it a few years ago, but today I just don't care. That's probably what conservatives want, and I don't care about that either.
Instead of following politics or reading theory, I read whatever philosophy I want. Instead of keeping up with debates, I focus on my hobbies and hanging out with friends. My apathy isn't due to being unaffected by modern politics, it very much is, but I've accepted my lot in life, the way I assume everyone of every society preceding mine has done. I feel liberated from a struggle I rarely if ever got to be a participant in. And, you know what, I'm accomplishing just about as much as I was before. I didn't realize it, but I've been checked out for a long time now, and I wonder if others feel the same.
I think your choice is totally valid. I still follow politics personally, but I try not to get too invested in it.
Our only obligation, if we have any at all, is to leave the world a little better than we found it. We can't solve all the big problems, in most cases we can't even move the needle without extreme wealth or a lifetime invested in one particular cause.
But we can make an impact in our immediate circles, and that's enough. I think there's as much or more value in trying to be a good human than there is in beating our heads against broken systems and becoming frustrated and bitter.
Which isn't to say you can't do both, and cheers to people who manage it.
Side note, it's interesting that multiple posters have said some version of "I'm not really patriotic anymore". Amen to that. Even if the US didn't do quite so many evil things, national pride is such an arbitrary distinction. 300 million people is so far outside of our cognitive ability to process, why not just bump it all the way up to 8 billion? It seems to me that patriotism is mostly just a political (and martial) tool that leverages our tribal instincts, rather than an idea with inherent nobility.
I love how this comment is worded. I may have read it 5 or 6 times now.
I love this. The framing, the wording. Yes, I find it far more effective in making the world a better place to be more involved in the personal than trying to move the needle at the macro level. In fact, that latter goal often made the former harder to do.
I was listening to a municipal mayor in a nearby town talk about her involvement in local politics
, about being a woman and receiving threats and being blamed for provincial + federal things she can't do anything about. Apparently, municipalities own 80% of Canada's infrastructure but only get allocated 7% of all tax dollars to take care of it. [(This 2019 source says 60%/12% but things might have gotten worse since)](https://cupe.ca/fair-taxes-and-municipal-revenues) It seems to be a thankless, impossible task while everyone assumes you're raking it in. The position actually pays something like $30k Canadian a year ans constituents will literally call and bang on your door all day.She said, when she goes to bed each night, she asks herself three questions:
Was I kind today?
Did I try to make someone's life better today?
Can I try to do the same or better tomorrow?
And that's how she can still go to bed feeling good about herself.
And I think that that is a far far far better attitude than being stressed out about politics and being filled with rage and despair all the time. Thanks for taking the time to make this thread, it allowed many of us to feel seen and heard, and to vent together, so that we can go back out there and just help one person today. You helped me today, and forget politics, but I hope you can continue to do the same again tomorrow.
Thank you for your kind words. Those are great daily goals to live by.
Patriotism is a pretty rational point of view from a self interest standpoint. When you're talking about allocating resources, where those resources go in proximity to you and your family greatly determines how much you and your family benefit from them.
Policies that prioritize your neighborhood over other neighborhoods are much more likely to personally raise your standard of living, which you can extrapolate all the way up to nation states; policies that prioritize your country over every other country in the world are likely to be more positive towards you and your family, so it's within your rational best interests to support those policies. Even if in a specific scenario, globalism would be better for all involved parties, a worldwide prisoner's dilemma scenario still dictates that patriotism is a rational choice.
If liberalism is true, then this is probably correct, however I personally doubt it. I tend to take a view better supported by sociology, that it might be the case that the interests that dominate your country and do rule making at a national level are in direct opposition to your own. If that's the case, then it may even be rational to politically organize with those who share your interests internationally rather than locally. However even if you don't do this, the struggle isn't between your country and others for resources, but your class interests against a ruling class.
I think isolationism or nationalism is closer to the group prioritization you're describing. Patriotism to me is appreciating our supporting the good things our country stands for. The equality we strive for, the way we welcome all people from around the world to a life of opportunity and peace, the collaboration of our people to make our country instead of relying on divine right or military authority.
We frequently stumble, and are taken advantage of by corrupt people, but I have pride in the aim, if not the execution. I'm proud of an America that may not exist or ever have existed, but the idea of it inspires me to work towards it. That's why criticizing our shortcomings is extremely patriotic, where a nationalist may tell you to shut up.
I have a sticker from the ACLU: Dissent is Patriotic.
Yup, that about sums it up. I was in highschool for the Roe v Wade decision. It was a huge victory for our generation. But I've also seen wars, from Viet Nam to Iraqi freedom and Afghanistan. The way media changed during the OJ trial and Princess Diana's death; the rise of the 24 hr news cycle. Bush 41, Bush 43, Obama, Trump, along with state and local politics.
Now I still vote, I somewhat care, but my worldview is mostly pragmatic. The cognitive dissonance is palpable at times. Covid and climate change have really exposed many weaknesses in our democracy; highlighted fractures in society, which saddened me. But it also gave me strength to believe in my personal convictions.
As such, I too have focused on my own personal growth and wellbeing. I do what's best for me and mine. I have some peace of mind with these changes. The ideological fight for the US has always been waged throughout time. Its no longer a fight I need to be a part of other than to continue to vote for whom will best represent my values. And you know what? That's okay. I bring value to my community in other ways.
Keep being thoughtful and mindful, care for youself. I wish you peace in your choices.
Thank you for your perspective and your kind words. This is precisely how I feel.
My comment is more a rant, then constructive, sorry. And not directly related to latest USA debates.
So, I will be f#cking happy if I can stop care about politics. (By the way, can we use vulgar words on Tildes?). But my country at a war with russia, so I practically forced to care about USA, EU, China, russia and Ukraine politics.
In a general strokes I still do not care, because its very hard to feel involved, or to feel that you can do/change something. Its more like watching the news because you have to be informed about current situation.
I can empathize a little bit. Five years ago, when China started doing worse things to Hong Kongers, my Ukrainian Orthodox priest was very kind to me and listened to my rant and raving. And at the end he simply said, many of the things happening to your people are the same that has been happening to mine, and it does feels bad.
So on that note, the things happening to your people are so much worse than what has been happening to mine, and it does feels bad. I'm sorry about all of that, and I hope Putin's regime gets bent and go away into oblivion soon.
And yes, you and I will be really f'n happy when citizens can stop caring about politics as well. Metaphor: children who need to educate themselves on the minutiae of divorce law are not really doing very well.
This is a story I would tell myself to justify my addiction to doomscrolling and the news. It turns out I can be way, way less informed than I currently am to make the correct choice on who to vote for. Until that problem gets hard, I really can stand to be even less informed than my apathetic self is now.
I'm sorry about the situation you are in by the way.
The two primary rules about language around here seem to be "don't be an asshole," and "try to see that your comments are considered and contribute to constructive conversation."
It's not so much the words you use, but how you use them.
If you're pent up with rage at a system that's fucking up your life, thats one thing, it's another to be slinging poop at a fellow poster.
I wish I could stop caring about politics, but too many people I care about are adversely affected by it. The least I can do is be engaged.
I'm personally adversely affected by it
I have a 100% genuine question that may sound rude on the surface, but I promise is in good faith: is that accomplishing anything? Do you think you are making more of an impact on this world than I am? It'd be hard to be less engaged than I am; I mean I recycle, vote, the basics, and nothing more. Yet, I doubt you are doing much that I'm not doing.
I'd love to be wrong, to be told what more I could be doing. I've longed for this answer, and it never comes.
Hi, community organizer, activist and anarchist here.
I'm deeply invested in politics and I am doing a shitload more than you, that I can promise. It's not a contest but I do think that if more people invested in their community, helped create dual-power structures that dis-invested the resources of the people from that of the state and corporate infrastructure more we'd be better off.
So what can you be doing? First have the conversation with people who are willing and able to take the next step. Whether it's helping homeless people, organizing a community garden, assisting at a free-clinic, getting a banned-book/free-library going, training for defense of self (and others), setting up or just beginning to stockpile and allocate resources (such as food and water) with your immediate neighbors to better weather downturns in the economy (or whatever else hits us next).
Sitting back and idly expecting voting to be your savior is not how change works. Change comes when people act.
Meet like minded people, organize yourselves, ensure that you can help each other equitably and work from there.
If you have questions beyond that, send me a DM, I can point you to a where you can have a voice chat with me and a community full of people like me who are engaged and doing things from all over the globe.
All of the activities you recommended are probably outside the realm of politics as I'm using the term. Sure, a community garden or a free library might be nice for folks, but it's not really in the same ballpark as being hyper-fixated on national politics.
I appreciate what anarchists do in their communities, but I'd view this as something more like charity. It's good to do sure, but in my worldview this doesn't actually move the needle on whether capitalism will continue to exist or whatever. I don't mind agreeing to disagree on the last point, I don't wanna talk anyone out of doing good.
I wasn't on this thread, but I think I understand. The interesting about politics is making systemic change, and many of the alternatives are not necessarily systemic, nor do they necessarily have clear goals or even correct goals. (I am remembering, maybe incorrectly, that the U.S. once gave so much food aid to a country we destroyed their local agriculture's ability to compete.)
I was frustrated at the ability of politics to protect us against some of the craziness of private industry. But another way to look at it is that private industry can be really impactful. I think there's probably one person who sleeps really well because they liked the political impact of Uber. There's probably another who's very proud of what Facebook has done for interpersonal communication. In consumer finance, there's been lots of approaches to creating mutual gains by reducing inefficiencies-- for example, debt management / reduction products. There's reducing emissions by improving food production processes. There's this small startup (?) near me that sells specific, local-ish farms' products to consumers directly (no supermarket middlemen in their typical form), and there's a local appliance rental company (reducing consumption, while allowing city-goers to save space). Of course, these business models aren't immune to eventually turning into lazy rentseeking. It's important to manage finances / investments well, or to have competition. But, a world where people were using these products at all would be very cool.
How do you think I got the ability to have one of our city council members who was opposed to the homeless shelter being set up thrown out of office? It's through the connections made doing the above activities.
Building community, building a network of connections is how power is accumulated and refusal to participate is the active refusal of power, it's rolling over and taking it.
When the homeless encampment in Dallas was threatened by the city, the John Brown Gun Club showed up and defended it. The city apologized and said it was a "misunderstanding".
It's not about "whether capitalism will continue to exist or whatever" it's about mitigating the effects of it for those that exist NOW. I'm reminded of MLK's Letter from a Birmingham Jail once again and his warning of moderates and how they stand in the way more than the KKK member. It's the complete resigning oneself to "oh well what are you gonna do" that harms people more than the bad actors themselves, it's middle managers, people who just go along to get along and the like that allow the harm to come. Too many inactive people who refuse to engage in their communities and build those power structures that would allow them to have the connections to start to make changes that affect the greater world around them because why? Because they took one too many L's I guess. Get back up and do it again then.
Yeah okay, this probably makes more sense to me. My biggest problem here is that these seem more like moral considerations than achieving a specific political aim.
If I was more morally virtuous, I could spend my weekends at the local food shelter. I could be vegan, and avoid my small participation in the horrors of factory farming. I could donate my money; in fact, every cent I spend on even basic indulgences is a dollar that could be spent on something lifesaving for others.
There's a non-trivial hedonic calculus that feels paralyzing for me. Also, I'm not certain a political philosophy that's rooted in morality can be coherent.
Do you have any advice for someone who really doesn’t want to have to interact with people in their free time, but still wants to contribute to these types of projects? All your advice starts with “Talk to people” which is great, but as a true introvert whose job requires talking to people all day, I do not have the spoons for that.
If it helps, typing at people through a screen doesn’t “count” for me. Which is why my little corner of making the world better is currently just moderating a gaming discord/subreddit to keep the bigots out.
Apathy breeds apathy. Even if you would never get actively involved, telling people that caring doesn't matter, that being informed doesn't change anything, that sort of defeatist attitude discourages others from caring as well. It discourages others who might actually get involved.
I'm not talking about slactivism or virtue signaling or ragebaiting. I'm talking about just actually giving a shit. When someone asks how you feel, to have a real informed opinion, even if it's nuanced and doesn't fit nicely into one of two boxes.
I don't think I'm committed to the view caring doesn't matter. It'd depend on what we mean by matter. I also don't intend to evangelize the apathetic position either. We'd also need to work out what "get involved" means; I vote, I encourage others to when it's that time.
My post isn't "you should be apathetic". My post is "upon introspection, I discovered that I've become apathetic".
When someone asks how I feel about abortion rights, I think I can give them a well-thoughtout answer. If someone asks me about how I feel about the Trump indictment, I can tell them that I don't have enough information to say anything meaningful on the topic.
I have a freaking BA in Poli Sci, but around 3 years ago I just went cold turkey on politics.
I read and hear nothing. I was literally two weeks late on Gaza.
I realized ignorant bliss was a better way to live than informed misery.
My only contribution to the betterment of the planet was deciding not to have kids because the power players of the world just don't give a fuck about the rest of us.
I drive a gas hungry truck because I like driving it. Didn't bother voting in the last midterms. I gave up on recycling.
I'm gonna live, enjoy my life, and then die. I just no longer care what goes on in the world. Whereas before, I made everything my personal problem, now literally none of it is my problem.
I am in the same boat (maybe not quite as extreme). I also don't have kids because I am generally pessimistic about humanity's future.
If anything I care about politics more. It matters so much.
Not everyone has to be actively engaged with politics. Some people will take the defeat and move on, and that's perfectly fine. I don't judge who doesn't want to participate or stay informed, to each their own.
Me, personally, could never stop caring. It's so damn important. I'll never stop caring about the things I believe in, and I, too, become more engaged the older I get, as I realize how much more important it is. I wouldn't be happier by choosing to stay ignorant to what's going on in the world, I'd be miserable.
I hate to use this word, but that means they are privileged to not be effected by politics. They are white, have a lot of money, and aren't concerned about people who do not. As far as the U.S. goes these people would be foolish as democracy is on the line which would effect them.
It kind of depends though. There are many people who are not privileged at all, and may even be struggling day to day who do not deal with politics.
They cannot. They've spent most of the day working hard and earning very little. Maybe they have a lot of dependents or any other situation that can exhaust someone from just trying to live.
It's very easy to feel like you have no power and nothing you do will matter. You will remain this way no matter how hard you try. You don't even have the emotional or physical energy to spend on politics.
If everyone was like this, would that mean things would never change? Possibly. But you're too tired to think that far. You've got bills to pay tomorrow.
A possible counterpoint: I am directly affected by reactionary politics, and I'm not directly engaged. Because there's very little I am able to do (e.g., voting), and I'm already doing that
There is a lot of value in keeping up with what happens.
No.
To me, refusing to fight for a more equal and better world is a refusal of one's responsibilities to humanity and life. We all share the bond of suffering, and we all bear a responsibility to each other. We don't owe each other our lives, but we do owe some of our lives.
I am certainly not against caring for the local causes and less confrontational ways of caring for each other. I get it. World is hostile, complex, and full of things that seem out of our control. So focusing on the smaller, less confrontational things is comforting. It also helps people and other life. However, caring for others still has to entail fighting for the bigger things. It's not separable. We don't any longer live in the world of tribes or villages. Everything we do or do not do affect each other. We owe each other the basic fight.
I at times struggle with balancing this with the realities of being a single, weak person. I sometimes feel like I am utterly failing, miserably unimportant. Other times I feel anxious and threatened, yearning for a release. I think there is a very real possibility of losing the sight of yourself in such things, forgetting that you are important too. So I do not hold a grudge against people for prioritizing certain things that help them cope better. A person shouldn't forget that they are miraculous just for existing, and don't need any grand cause to justify their existence. Yet, at the same time, this bond of suffering binds us all. There is so much that needs to be done. I don't see how anyone would justify refusing this kinship, and still be able to see themselves positively in terms of morality.
I should clarify that none of this means a person has to follow the partizan slop and the doomer journalism industry every day. I don't think doomscrolling is good praxis. I don't think "feeling like being informed but actually getting bombarded with the news cycle and a myriad of shitty political happenings, which only results in feeling alienated and hopeless" does anyone any good. I'm just saying a person should find a way to be active in egalitarian and interconnected politics, which certainly does not end at voting. In fact, voting is just one part of it.
What more could I possibly do? What actions are unavailable for me to take due to me checking out of politics?
I can't tell you exactly what to do, because I wouldn't be comfortable with dictating a road map, and also because from what I see we live in very different countries. Furthermore, what a person is able or willing to do depends extremely on their circumstances — their skills, the satisfaction they get from different things, the state of their physical and mental health, their financial & working situation, their time available for this stuff, what state apparatus they live under, etc. However, small or big, there is a myriad of ways to be active. Here are some generic ones.
I get upset and very uncomfortable when middle-class or higher people in the developed world give up and retreat to comfort, even though in many ways they have it much easier than vast majority of people in the world (unless there are some special circumstances). There are a ton of people at much worse conditions that keep fighting, and there are a ton of people that need help. People in the developed world actually have a much better chance to effect change on these topics, compared to people like me from the developing world, because developed countries hold much more sway internationally.
However, don't think I don't have sympathy for you. Life is hard for most people in every country, and nobody says this is easy. It's always hard. This is another bond we humans share. But that's what fighting power is. Most movements that aim to change things fail, and it's because cunts are running the world. But it still needs to be done. If you fail 9 times out of 10, but the 10th time results in benefits for thousands to millions of people, that's still a major win.
A related point. We also get a ton of ideological luggage from the society we grow up in, and most of it needs to be unlearned. I think things like belief in the liberal order and retreating to conformism also fall into this. Recently I've started reading "The Dawn of Everything", for example, and it's helping me a lot to broaden my horizon. I've realized what I thought possible about the world, even if I thought it was framed positively, was actually built on a very shaky ideological foundation.
Long story short, while elections have importance, it's not nearly the only way one can effect change. It's actually an ideological trap many conservatives around the world use, by the way — the idea that elections should be the only place to show your reaction, or that they are the only thing that matters. They say this because they actually know "making noise" and such things actually work, and they are trying to prevent that from happening. This most often happens in places where conservatives are likely to win elections.
Are you checking out of the spectacle or out of politics?
I, personally, try to at least steer people around me away from the "somebody is a shit person because I cannot fathom their though process and it inconveniences me".
Also, someday I'd love to work in a cooperative arrangement. Even as a cog in capitalism. Simply because we need more people trained to talk things out, compromise and work together as opposed to doing what they're told or bossing others.
Thank you for writing this. It's so easy for Westerners (like myself) to become complacent. It's important for us to remember that complacency is exactly what the bad guys want.
No problem. At the risk of overthinking, I wanna say that there is a significant amount of leftist people in developed countries criticizing exactly this. Their writings and such helped me a lot.
Yes and no. I have completely checked the fuck out when it comes to thinking about the election this year. I already know who I’m voting for, or more accurately, who I am voting against. The only election news that would actually be so important that I need to know about it is the same exact kind of news that would be politically cataclysmic and impossible to not hear about. No need for me to go looking for it.
I’ve also tried to check out of learning about other political happenings (like SCOTUS decisions) until after the election as well, because nothing really is going to matter or change one way or another between now and the election anyways, at least not anything that I will need to know about.
Which isn’t to say I’ve completely checked out of politics. I don’t read the news, because reading the news is the new smoking. I definitely do still read political books and other materials though, and generally continue to think about and develop my own political beliefs.
If anything, ever since I’ve stopped keeping up with political news and happenings, I’ve actually become more radicalized. That’s probably from having joined a housing union in college and volunteered in agitation activities against slumlords in the university’s local area.
I also take a lot more notes about politics and economics these days. Partly in a constant struggle to untangle good ideas from stuffy and pretentious intelligentsia-word-vomit, but also because it’s a huge inspiration for me to work on fiction writing and worldbuilding.
All that to say, I’ve made a conscious effort to not read political news or let that stuff get to me, because it’s unhealthy and toxic as fuck. I haven’t totally dropped my own interest in politics though, nor stopped exploring what my political beliefs are, what those would look like in the real world, or how historically and practically they have been applied. I feel much richer and healthier for it.
I feel like fascism has already won here in the US. I look at the post-truth society we have built, and how half of the country wants to install a president who is a compulsive liar and convicted criminal who has already stirred up an insurrection once. I look at all the damage he has already inflicted to our government, especially when it comes to the Supreme Court and the countless damaging decisions they have made which have radically pulled back the ability of the government to protect citizens.
I’ve been thinking a lot lately about violence from a political perspective. The right seems to have a monopoly on it. They are full of maniacs who are drinking the coolaid on gun rights which are being driven in part by a selection of people who want to have them to violently overthrow the government. Mass shootings get done by right wing folks regularly now, and the Supreme Court just OKed the sale and production of bump stocks which turn them into much more deadly weapons. One thing I have thought about in particular is the idea of political assasination, because the right has a monopoly on that too. Of the two presidents to be assasinated in this country, both of them were leftists. Yet right now we have a former president that we know without a shadow of a doubt that he will try to do everything to destroy everything leftists care about out of little more than spite, and it doesn’t even seem to be a possibility that anyone would try to lift a finger to harm him. While I wouldn’t condone murder on principle, I worry that those principles are just making things more dangerous in a world where your opposition appears to lack them.
I’ve already stopped regularly consuming news because it just made me feel like shit, but big stories get around weather you want them or not, and the past few days in particular have just made me feel like there is no hope. I lack the resources to leave the country so I feel doomed.
There's a lot of degrees of gradation between Trump running again, to Trump trying a coup again, to Trump succeeding in the coup, to having a right-wing dictatorship, to fascism. Things are bad, but I think we should be cautious when busting out that particular term.
I think liberal gun control policy is predicated on a trust of the state and a trust of the police for self-defense that may be less tenable if we slide towards rightist dictatorship, and is currently untenable for many vulnerable groups now. We need to rethink our implicit trust in these institutions and update our views on gun ownership accordingly.
Those degrees are effectively meaningless, though. There isn't enough opposition to fascism here, so the fact that it's already here and has a political machine means that it's inevitably going to take over.
In fact there's a heck of a lot of opposition to antifascism and when you bring up fascism people just tell you that you're overreacting and the fascism isn't real.
Hate to break this to you, but a Republican candidate in Florida is seriously suggesting suspending habeus corpus.
The Daily Show makes it easier to swallow.
I'm at the point where I still care, but I've hit my threshold on new information for these candidates, and I don't really try to change people's minds. Both parties at this point are playing chicken with their voters, neither has any incentive to change without giving up some form of power or leverage, and whatever promise there was of our generation inheriting the world, the powerful are more than willing to burn things to the ground rather than becoming disempowered, so we're at a bit of an impasse. I'm having a bit of a hard time not accepting fatalism, but the worst possible options aren't off the table, there's only so much I can do about the state of the world, and I like almost everyone else in these matters, are along for the ride.
Wow, talk about preaching to the choir! I got pretty burnt out on politics in 2016 during the Hillary/Trump election. I wouldn't call myself a liberal, I more closely identify with progressives. Since learning about our shenanigans in Central and South America from the 40s-90s in college I'd say I'm a member of a society that I don't believe in or feel proud of. That was compounded with my early career working with a non-profit in conflict zones. It made me 1. very suspect of how we frame foreign nations or actors as "bad or good" after some very nice interactions with both active members of Assad's government and the Taliban (I'm not being facetious, most of them don't know about 9/11 and in some cases know very little about the US) and 2. removed the guise that we're a shining bastion of aid and hope. We are causing many of the global conflicts and acting like we're fixing them.
But There are also parts of the US that make me happy and a little proud - I love how warm/outgoing we are culturally, I love how innovative we are, and I love our diversity (even if that is fraught too) - but as a collective I'm still pretty non-plussed. The last 4 years has turbo charged that feeling. I also followed the Mueller investigations and the outcome made me feel like there was little to do about anything. I watched the Jan. 6th insurrection and assumed there was little that would happen to those folks. I've watched as we've supported a genocide in Gaza, unearthing some of the most disappointing perspectives within my communities. And like you, I've had to sit through barrage after barrage of Supreme Court bullshit.
I'd say I took 2 solid year away from politics from 2017-2019, and was lucky to move to Europe for that time and truly remove myself. I think when I returned I was pointedly aware of how much better I felt not engaging so often with politics, and not having it be a common talking point. I made a point to heavily reduce the amount of day to day interactions I had with it while still trying to get the broad strokes. I still write to my senators and congress person when there are big ticket items I want them to endorse or disrupt. I got really active locally where I joined the planning commission to make impacts on local things like infrastructure and housing. And most days even that feels futile and enraging as I get shouted at by member of the public for wanting to "unleash a communist agenda" while just meeting the state minimums for housing rezoning.
I think we're going through a rough transitional period globally, where the generation at the helm has seen the benefits of a society that saw the worst of capital hoarding and violence but has forgotten those lessons. I think the next 10-20 years will be pretty rough, but I'm hoping we'll have a prosperous period that follows it for the average person. I cannot wait to get out of this shitty, silicon gilded age. But that may be wishful thinking.
I feel very similarly, but for completely opposite reasons.
I have gotten really sick of all the social reformist anti capitalism messaging out in the ether.
And its just really boring to me. Its a real waste of time to me to try and have these top down discussions about whats wrong with everyone else. It always sounds the same and after hearing the pitch like 3 or 4 times it really loses its punch.
But people insist on trying to bring this up all the time, and it just turns every possible interesting conversation into this one relatively bland one.
It just feels like people are trying to use this one ethical discussion that they feel is already a settled issue as a cudgel to browbeat others with. And they pose this as though they want to have interesting meaningful conversations, but its really just a lecture more than a conversation. Its got that same condescending tone that evangelical christians use when theyre trying to explain to me that Jesus exists.
Yes, I feel the same.
"Why can't we just house people?"
"This is just late stage capitalism"
And several more greatest hits. I get it, I agree, but I'm tired of hearing about it, because it's the same shit each time, no real solutions and no real consideration how you implement those things, what they mean or criticism of them. It's these ideas that are perfect in the bubble of Internet communities and broker no criticism.
I do agree with them, but the way they're repeated ad nauseam as though they're bulletproof gets to me. I have someone in life my right now that repeats this stuff and all I can do is just nod my head and say "uh huh", as I silently scream in my head.
The worst part about it for me is that I actually am interested in a lot of this stuff and want to think about these issues and cone up with solutions. But then people will try to shut me down and invalidate my ideas, because they would rather have me do their ideas instead. Which makes it feel like engaging with these broader groups is actially counter productive.
Certain people will argue that theres just one singular way to deal with any given problem, and its their way, and thinking about anything else is a "distraction". And in the end what it ends up feeling like Im not allowed to actually think about anything, despite people telling me how important it is to be engaged and involved.
I think politics right now is like the Korean War. Korea came rapidly on the heels of WWII, which was impossible to not know everything you can about it. It was everywhere, and when it was over, half a decade later another war comes along. People didn't want to hear about the possibility, didn't want to acknowledge it. They were burned out. "We just had a big one, how bad can this one be?" It was the forgotten war even before it began.
Right now, there's activity on the 38th parallel (politically speaking), and we're going about our lives. This election is the Korean War for many of us, and I frankly can't place blame.
This is a really good analogy
Kinda. I've gone through phases of caring deeply and getting so frustrated that I become apathetic. Like others in this thread, I most recently hit a low point when I got burned out after 2020. For me it was the helplessness that came after watching four years of progressive momentum slip away, beginning with Biden winning the nomination and ending with Machin and Sinema playing the spoiler role to perfection.
For whatever reason, I still like to consume politics as some twisted form of entertainment, but I don't engage with the same passion I once had. Part of that comes from my job. I work as a teacher in a very underserved community and that at least keeps me busy and makes me feel like I'm making some sort of effort to improve the country/world, as small as it may be.
I've also changed my perspective quite a bit when it comes to discussing politics with people I disagree with. I used to think that me and my big brain ideas could change people's minds through a couple conversations. Obviously, it didn't work like that and for a long time that added to the frustration. But for some reason, something clicked after Jan 6 of all things and I realized that changing someone's mind about something comes from hundreds or perhaps thousands of little things that build up over time. You're not going to mold it like a ball of clay, instead, you chisel at it and sand it down like a block of marble. In a similar vein, nationwide cultural changes are like erosion - and I'm just a tiny drop of water throwing myself at a cliff. So every now and then, when I'm in the mood, I reach out to one of my stupid friends with stupid ideas and talk to them about an issue that's on my mind. We go back and forth, I try to regurgitate something I heard from someone much smarter than both of us, throw a link or two in their direction, and then I say goodbye and hope that something I said or shared might stick and be part of thousand other things that nudges them in a different direction. It's not much, but it's still something and I'm not losing my mind over it. I think that's the best I'm going to do, at least until someone decides to give me the nuclear codes.
This inability of the democrats to make a meaningful difference in the lives of working class people, despite having all of the keys to power, further cemented my view rooted in historical materialism. These people's goals were fundamentally opposed to my interests, and even when they have all the power they could ever ask for they act helpless.
If it is true that they didn't actually represent my interests but merely acted as if they did, then this is precisely what we would expect.
I think a sports metaphor here is the best way to understand things. Sports are a lot of fun, you start to watch the team that you like, you get invested in your team's players, you spend your money on tickets and merchandise, you use your time watching the games, you study the tactics and history of the game, you stay engaged by following trades or scouting reports. You can invest a lot of time in sports and really find it mentally and emotionally stimulating. But sometimes your team loses, and then you're left with the pain of the loss, the toxic comments everywhere online, and the scar that says I'd rather never be in the mix because at least then I don't feel the pain of losing.
Engaging in politics, like sports, requires a special type of mental toughness. If you don't have that level of toughness, either you go from low to high to low, or you run to apathy and disillusionment. The latter isn't such a bad outcome, many people live great lives engaging in other things. But I think there's something more fulfilling out there. It's a kind of toughness that lets you take one on the chin. It's not a callousness where you don't feel anything either way, but one where you feel the pain but take it in stride because that's what you're made of.
It's no surprise that this post comes just after the betting odds of Trump winning the election shot from around 50/50 to more like 60 /40 (or worse, depending on your market). This is the pain of a loss. Maybe it is a good time to think "maybe I need to get less invested". But there's another option too, which is to think "I need to toughen up". Because when you've got the kind of intellectual curiosity that you described in your post, don't be surprised if politics drags you back in...
This is... an interesting take. I suppose I could just toughen up, though I take a view of doxastic involuntarism. I don't think I have meaningful control over my beliefs. This apathy is not something I chose, but something I discovered about myself, several years in hindsight.
Now, it may be that lack of personal "toughness" is to blame for my political apathy, but if the sports analogy holds, I'm justified in being apathetic. A sports fan is incapable of having an impact on outcomes, and outcomes are the only sorts of things I care about.
My post was motivated by the despair of people in my life and my discovery of the fact that I didn't feel the same way. It led to me doing some reflecting on why I feel so different from not only my peers, but also the person I was 5-6 years ago.
When in college and after my graduation I got interested in politics and started trying to follow it more. I had a good friend whom we would have talks about things and do some light debates slowly over a chat throughout the day while talking about other topics.
This friend went hard down the communist rabbit hole while also going from being somewhat interested in politics to it being all he was interested in and all he did outside of work was follow political things. I ended up telling him after a couple of months that I was done discussing politics because I just didn't have the time for breadth and depth of discussion on any given topic that he did. One response from me on a topic would result in a wall of text and he was usually better informed than me on any topic because he'd spend hours and hours looking into things while I wanted to spend time with my wife and work on professional development. It felt less like learning more about something than getting a heavily slanted lecture/rant on the topic. We barely talked for a long time besides infrequent check ins and now he's had some terrible mental health issues and cut me off after some paranoid theories of me being part of something that was out to get him (I checked with some mutual friends to make sure there's still some people in contact with him).
Having that experience really turned me off politics. I really wanted to build up my career so I'd be able to move up so we'd be able to afford to start a family. I was also trying to improve myself in different areas and get involved in community at church. It just felt like a never ending time sink in that there's just so much nuance in different policy decisions and there's always some new thing to learn about/support/debate/etc. There's only so much time in my life and I'd rather chip away at my giant to read/watch/play lists, spend time with my family, or be better integrated with my local community and friends.
Now that I've moved abroad and I'm not eligible to vote here I tend to focus more on the some of the macro policy trends of the US that may impact me and local policies that may impact my family.
That's fine, no one does. Anyone who claims they do is either lying, mistaken, or trying to sell you something.
I think it's a mistake to stop caring though, I resonate with what Henry Rollins said on a Hot Ones interview, use some anger and intensity to get through it. I also think it doesn't really matter what labels we attach to things - materialism, capitalism, liberalism etc. The point of politics to me is to advocate for what we believe the right thing is.
I find it rewarding to do that earnestly, even in small ways and even if it feels like I didn't effect change, because we're social animals and just having the conversation can plant the seeds of an idea down the line.
I truly wish I could tune it all out but when the existence of many of my loved ones is political it becomes extremely hard.
Are there ways you are able to affect actual material outcomes by being plugged into the discourse that are unavailable to someone who doesn't follow politics anymore?
I... Uh... I don't know what that means to be honest. I apologize I'm not very smart.
Is there stuff that you are doing that actually affects outcomes that I'm not doing? Are there things I could be doing to affect outcomes that I'm unable to do if I don't keep up with politics?
I have as well. I was pretty invested from a young age (seeing a country go bankrupt blew my mind as a teen!) but it diminished as the quality of the news seemed to become... rabid (e.g. clickbait). Then 2016 came around, and it occurs to you that history does not require a linear progression of improvement. You are a small datapoint, you are a slice of a slice of 10 inappropriately layered heuristics about how groups of people vote, and the goal is to manipulate you to pick someone's institution of choice. The values I thought mattered to my fellow liberals seemed to shift towards interventionism, unveiled elitism, and division. I don't think the point of this thread is to ramble on about my disappointments or world view, so I'll say that I've found myself increasingly politically without a party.
I will also say, professionally, working in software teaches you there is no objectively perfect system. Perfection is very situational. I feel that political systems are like that too.
(Interestingly, I caught up with some friends last weekend. One traveled though Asia for a month; the rest of us were ethnically Asian (different countries). The one who traveled was blown away at what he saw in countries that did not meet his standard for a well-designed democracy, yet it roughly had the results he wanted: safety for women, a growing middle class, growing industry. And due to the cost of healthcare, some of us will see our parents retire back in Asia instead. I have been wrestling a lot with how to hedge against the risks of the future, against the risks of the US, of Russia, and of China. But sometimes I step back, and I wonder what it is I am opposing or supporting.)
What has helped? Changing my view of the news outside of pageantry; there's a blog I follow that collects articles from conventional outlets to share that help paint more of a high-level geopolitical view (like on BRICS). I also follow the people I respect in media if I can, rather than exclusively getting information from news sites. It's incredible how many "well-pedigreed" (e.g. professors, employees from the IMF or UN, etc.) people just write about their viewpoints on Substack for free. Ultimately I probably live in a biased bubble, but it is better than nothing.
Yep. I used to listen to about 2-3 hours of political news/analysis per day. July 2023 I stopped and really haven't paid much attention since. The US is cooked and there's nothing I can do about it. Might as well just enjoy myself while it lasts.
As an immigrant and a trans person, I wish I could have the luxury of not caring about politics. But people being disengaged from politics is how I get legislated out of existence, because the people who want to do that are absolutely engaged with and heavily participating in politics.
Let me start by saying that I am really sorry about the situation you are in.
A person who spends four hours a day consuming news does precisely as much as I do for immigrants and trans rights. Both that person and I have identical impacts on legislative outcomes.
Even ignoring the existence of ways to impact things besides voting (presumably what you mean by "having an identical impact on legislative outcomes"), someone who's disengaged from politics can easily vote for someone with abysmal policy positions on important issues like this because they're ill-informed.
Who did you vote for in the last election for your local school board? Or city council? Do you know their positions on important issues like these? What about your state legislature? Did you vote in the primaries for governor and state legislature in your district? Did you do so knowing where they stand on these issues? In the US, these things can have a greater impact on the lives of those living around you than the national elections -- this is especially the case for queer people. Do you know whether your state legislature has discussed or voted on any laws about trans people?
I vote in every local election. I take a couple of hours to Google the runners, and generally in my area it's between vocally "anti-woke" folks and non-partisan folks. I always choose the later. Progressives aren't an option in my area. I also vote in the GOP primary (as the dems do not win here) to pick the moderates over the foaming at the mouth reactionaries. This takes a couple of hours of my time every 6-months to a year. I usually don't bother looking up like the Railway commissioner or whatever. There's a local service that sends me emails leading up to every election I'm eligible to vote in.
I still follow the broad strokes but my reaction to most of it is to roll my eyes, shrug my shoulders, and shake my head. Because 90% of what's in the news just doesn't matter. Most of the rest of it, 9%, is pointless. I will read or watch whatever small fraction that's left - if it happens to interest me or if it's something I feel particularly strongly about, like climate stuff or queer rights stuff. In my opinion, around about 99% of news is clickbait or ragebait or both.
The only engaging I really do is to vote.
I haven't stopped caring, exactly. I've detached from it? Or lost hope? Not sure how to encapsulate it.
But I quit "hoping" the US would ever recover after Bush Jr. was handed the Presidency by SCOTUS.
Since then, I still pay close attention, not because I have any illusion that the US will ever live up to the hype, but because the manner in which it continues to implode over the coming years and decades will significantly impact quality of life everywhere on Earth.
That's a better description of the feeling I'm having. It's not that I don't have a preference about how things should go, it's that I don't feel that there's anything I can do in my current place and time that will make the slightest bit difference to the overall picture. There will never be a candidate to vote for that will win and gain the power to further my interests.
I used this analogy elsewhere, but if you were transported to another culture and time, say, medieval Europe, would you be constantly bothered that the King's authority was unjust? Bothered by the fact you live in a dictatorship? Likely not, you'd get on with your life, which best approximates how I feel about this situation.
But for some reason the revolutions kept and will keep coming. Doesn't that pique your interest?
For purposes of the illustration, in this scenario I happen to know that the monarchy I live under will last longer than my lifetime. Similarly, the odds of a major political overhaul happening in the US (that isn't a rightist one) are slim to none at the moment.
The WW3 is going to cause many schisms, some of which will make it possible to try to do things differently. Such a large scale disruption to the liberal order is an opportunity to address the causes.
If your theory of change involves a long period of carnage and bloodshed to happen it’s worth considering what types of people thrive and gain power in such an environment and whether those sorts of people are going to be the type of guys who create a humane set of rules and norms for regular folks to live under on the other side of it.
I am not disagreeing, but I am not discounting schismogenesis either.
When shitty things start to happen, people not directly involved tend to want to feel as better people so they modify their culture.
Wars are inevitable when neighboring with autocracies and oligarchies. They can't really mesh in any other way. And since societies don't really change until the proverbial shit hits the fan (see climate change for example), the lives lost is really the price of us learning not to build them in the first place.
You're examining the minefield not because you think anyone will sweep the mines, but because you want to know where, and where not, is safe to walk.
Me too, though I'm sure you haven't stopped caring about the political positions you hold. What have you replaced it with?
Asking because I feel the same, but I'm not sure how much of it is just because I'm getting older and am so sick of not seeing progress in the things that people have been fighting for for so long.
The only thing I feel fairly confident that I can do meaningfully is vote (which accomplishes just a notch above nothing in my view,) which takes up less than 0.01% of my awake time. I just don't think about it the other 99.99% of the time. I don't need to follow politics super closely to know which way to vote to accomplish harm reduction lol. I don't have any theories. I don't have any tendencies. If some leftist mass movement took off I'd get reengaged and support it (probably regardless of tendency,) but my current political philosophy is "meh."
Imagine being pro-democracy in medieval Europe, where democratic movements all take place far past your lifetime. How would you live if you found yourself in this situation with this knowledge of the impossibility of accomplishing these ideal political aims in your lifetime? That's probably the closest approximation to where I am at.
From about 2015 to 2020 I was uber into politics. I was even constructing my life to enter politics. I was super hyper focused on politics throughout 2020, but towards the end of that year I essentially stopped caring so much. I remember going through a hardcore leftist phase in the first half of 2020, being addicted to Twitter, and I was almost going to vote for the Green Party.
I ended up disconnecting from that world in September, deprogramming my brain from all that, and voted for Biden by November. After the election of Biden is when I decided to read some Marx and Engels, and came to the conclusion "Oh I'm just a normal liberal, a social democrat." And began criticizing the online political groups that I used to be a part of.
I eventually got tired with that and by 2022, I was almost completely checked out. I saw the midterm results and that was about it. I haven't really followed this stuff since, and most of my knowledge comes from before then. I didn't follow the Republican primary at all, and I didn't even end up voting in my State's primary (most of the Democrats were running unopposed anyway so there was no point in me voting).
I will be voting in November, but I don't really see myself following this stuff anymore.
This is entirely relatable for me. It's surprising how liberating Marx can be in caring about the ongoing spectacle that happens in liberal democracy day-to-day. I wish you well.
To be clear, I read Marx and Engels and came to the opposite conclusion that you did. My ambivalence to the day-to-day politics stuff was not a direct result of that, so much as it was a result of my detachment from that side of the internet. I guess we're both kind of nihilistic, so that's a similarity.
Oh I see, thank you for the clarification of your perspective
I checked out for mental health reasons. I only have so much energy and I don't want to waste it all on being angry and frustrated all the time at things that I have (effectively) zero influence over.
I think an entire thriller movie could be made about the Mueller investigation. There is still a lot of mystery and unanswered questions surrounding that whole topic.