112
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Hahaha we live in hell: "how do we pay for parking?"
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- Title
- hahaha we live in hell
- Authors
- gravis again, Art Raccoon, flowers,, Rena, colin, Nire Bryce, Kel, NeckSpike, Ceryl the Pretty, weasel, on hole 19, Pendell, [Gateway of Last Resort], Rat Grimes, Sable Pausch, tsundereland afc, jackie stackie, renne, rabbithawk256, Otter Arriving on Platform 1, Geight, Bubunsparce, Moose, Lizardguy, ilc, Froey 🏳️⚧️, Heathen, Gwyn, Andrew Elmore, Hu-Card Haver 💽, KC!⚡, X
- Published
- Aug 17 2023
- Word count
- 833 words
I deeply despise the idea of parking payment machines being removed in favour of apps, because so many apps of them try and get you signed up to some worthless subscription service.
That is, if you were actually using the correct site, and not the fake one you were redirected to by the fraudster who stuck a fake QR code over the original one.
I remember I had to upgrade my phone, yes get a new phone, because I couldn't park near the music venues downtown because for some reason the app wasn't supported on my phone.
To this day, if I need to use that stupid app I'll download it, use it for the night, and then uninstall it after I move my car. It's petty but I'm sticking to it.
There's no website?
Not to mention that apps makes it a harvesting user data game as well.
The best part is the the customer is still liable for their car being towed even if the payment instructions are wrong or fraudulent. I really don't understand how it's been allowed to get this bad but it's happening everywhere.
Exactly this. I purposely put off buying a smartphone until 2020 (and bought a Blackberry KeyOne because I wanted a physical keyboard), using a cheap Motorola Tracfone—which only did talk and text, after the built-in browser's security certificates expired—for about 7 years. Even then, in my rather small Idaho town, I could see the progression of mobile-only options coming, such as QR-code menus at restaurants. While I use my smartphone now (and need it for MFA on mny school email and other things), I sometimes wish I could go back to the simpler, unplugged time.
Link to HN discussion thread
I saw this on HN and wanted to share this here, because I too have experienced countless times where I've been frustrated and impeded by terrible tech + UX: paying for parking, looking for city services, filing taxes, trying to get customer support, and so on.
Especially in the US, compared to the Netherlands, where the UX of public services ranges from quite decent to excellent.
How can we make this better? What prevents us from making this better?
Leave a machine that accepts cash and credit. Plug in your license plate number. Or just mandate EZPass support (not sure if nationwide or just east coast US). A simple RFID reader tied to my car and a seperate account I can manage on any device. I pull in and park, charges correct amount on way out. No further interaction needed.
I don't like the world that presumes a smartphone, because the odds of it working well are iffy. It further locks in the duopoly of Apple/Google. I'll endorse it when "I don't own a smartphone and couldn't pay" is a valid statement to automatically dispute any parking lot ticket. I'll bin my smartphone immediately.
E-ZPass is in most states, but not all.
It would be really nice if it were everywhere, though.
Looks like it's only in 20 states, so a far cry from most, with Minnesota being the furthest west the system goes. From what it looks like with their history of integrating state specific toll systems, I bet most "non-compatible" systems use the same tech and just need a software update on the backend to be compatible, though.
I know I-Pass (Illinois) uses the same transponder.
I-Pass is part.of EZPass though, no?
It does look like ExpressToll (our system in Colorado) uses the same transponders for the switchable toll/HOV ones, but for basic "transponders", we use a simple sticker with a large RFID style antenna embedded (a la Washington state's toll system), which does not look compatible.
Ez pass still requires that you've signed up for some random service that many people don't need.
E-Z Pass is a mess of a system. I moved to an eastern state (that has no toll roads, but is surrounded by states that use E-ZPass) and went from using FasTrak in CA to E-ZPass. The rules are setup are so messed up that I haven't yet bought a transponder. Depending which state you buy the transponder from you have different rates on different roads. Apparently New York has something like 3 different organizations that give different rates, which also depends where you live. Moreover, I have a camper van that is > 7,000 GVW, so according to the rules I can't have it on a personal account, but also apparently don't qualify for a commercial account -- oh, and then there's a maintenance fee if you don't use it enough. I don't understand the GVW rule either as that basically means that almost no pickup can have a transponder -- which makes no sense to me at all:
I finally just gave up and keep paying the higher pay by plate price given that I don't travel out of my home state more than a few times per year.
I also wonder -- if they already scan every plate and can send a bill, why can't I just set up an online account w/ my billing information and just let them email me whenever they bill me? Why do I need a transponder at all?
The rules are also different by state since they're all independent bodies. Not all states have that weight limit or at least have a higher weight limit. Luckily since there's no rules about which state's EZpass you have to have, you can always buy from the state whose rules match your needs. I believe I-Pass is especially popular with RVs.
Thanks, I can look into I-Pass -- perhaps I can get the NY one for my regular car (since it most often travels to NYC to visit family), and get something else for the camper van. No reason why I can't mix-and-match.
It looks like it's in Ohio, but I've never heard of it. Seems to be related to the turnpike, which in 15 years living here I've never driven on.
Don't get an E-Zpass in Ohio, they charge a monthly fee if you don't use it enough in Ohio (~30 times a month I think?). I got mine from Pennsylvania which charges ~ $3 a year in fees.
Is there a term for captive audience from the point of view of someone within that audience? I want to say something like “micro monopoly”: there might technically be competition in the market as a whole, but if you want to park close to your destination, you use whatever app the owners of the space you need have contracted with. There’s almost zero incentive for the app makers to consider the end user as long as they scrape above a very, very low baseline of usability.
I’d make a reasonable bet that the ones where you’re seeing better UX are the ones that are run as actual public services, where taking care of the end user is still part of the remit, rather than ceded to the private sector where the end user is to be tolerated only as far as market forces demand.
I think "demand inelasticity" is applicable here. There are few alternatives, not easily accessible.
Regulatory Capture - a government sanctioned monopoly.
It's called a captive market.
At a guess, and with zero citations:
Take your pick from:
(1) the lot owners don't care about parking UX. Not maliciously, but because they run a hospital/bakery/sex dungeon, and don't have the time to research this,
(2) markets being a poor fit for this space. In principle you need competition to make a market efficient; that's why there were signs for up to five apps. The fact that there were five apps to choose from is the problem we want to address.
Given that these are private ventures, your options are to outcompete the existing options (e.g. massively undercut fees with VC capital, aggressively lobby to eliminate competitors, run smear campaigns in social media, etc.), lobby local government to get a bylaw passed, or discuss this rationally with each group that uses these apps.
I despise the 'internet of everything' with a passion. Sure paying online CAN work. But in the old days you dropped a quarter into the meter and walked away. 2 seconds. Now its a 2 minute ordeal IF you're lucky. Ug. So much for progress.
But then they don't have to pay someone to collect coins or fix clogged machines or worry about it getting stolen for the cash. More hands off.
The biggest advantage for the space owner is that by using tickets or an app system you enable considerable overpayment - the same time is paid for many times over, as people leave before their time expires and the next person comes in. An old school parking meter only allows one payment for the same hour, no matter if the user changes during that time.
At least, the way most of the parking apps work in Denmark is that you only pay for the time you use. According to one of the park apps' websites (Parkman) [1], "when you return to your car and wish to end your parking session, you should open the app and tap on 'Stop parking.' The app will then prompt you to confirm your request to end the parking session."
This means you only have to spend money on parking that you actually use. It is similarly to how EasyPark works in Denmark also [2]. I would think the main reason for using these apps online or via an app is to ensure you only pay for the time you use. It sounds to me like the issue may not be with the app in your example. For me sounds rather, it's a lack of regulation or policy that ensures customers only pay for the time they park and are not forced to pay for unused time.
[1] https://parkman.io/dk/kundeservice
[2] https://www.easypark.com/da-dk
Eh, not sure how it's in other parts of the world but in the decently sized city in the middle of the EU I live in offers three ways of paying for parking: App, SMS and the old way: a meter with coins. So, if anything they added payment options while keeping the coin based one that will still need people maintaining them and collecting the money.
I would add a fourth to that for parking garages: debit/creditcard, where you use the card to open the gate when driving in/out.
Man I had such an annoying time like this a little while ago. Similar setup, but the car park also had very weak mobile signal, so I had to go for a walk to make it work. The payment platform required a minimum amount of $ on your account, so I had to pay effectively twice as much. Finally, the only way to delete my account was over the phone. Which, naturally, took nearly two hours of back and forth.
Fucking infuriating. Completely unnecessary tech
Even when it works, it's still shitty.
I go to customers' locations for my work, and a single visit can take anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour or more. When I pull up to park in a metered space I have to overpay for parking or risk a potential ticket. If things go well and I don't end up needing all that time, can I bank the remainder for the next parking session? Nope. Of course not. The remainder just goes down the toilet.
You might say, "that's no different from when there were physical meters, though!" The difference is, when I move on to overpay at another spot, presumably someone else will move into the original spot and pay, and the city and their asshole parking app mascot (it's a smug-ass cat for some damned reason) get to double charge. In the old days someone could slide into your spot and get some free parking time, or at the very least, the city couldn't double bill like the parking spot were a fucking lawyer or something.
I encountered this in the UK very recently and had to spend 5+ minutes setting everything up before I was about to pay and then go about my jobs. If time was critical this would have set me back.
However, this was nothing compared to me seeing an older, less tech competent, gentleman struggling when I returned. He was in a borrowed car too, which didn't help matters, but I could see he was on the verge of giving up and just diving away. It took about 10-15 minutes to get him registered, a credit card sorted out, and pay, but we got there.
This led me to believe that the car park companies love all this as their charges through fines had probably increased drastically.
This sounds way worse than it has to be. Does satellite location work that poorly in Seattle? Why is it not being used (along with a map) to select the location? That's how parking apps work here in Portugal. You can also top up your account beforehand so you don't have to deal with credit car shenanigans while parking.
NFC would also be another possible solution, with a contact point in the venue.
You gotta remember, that here in the US those handheld card readers used in restaurants in Europe for ages are just now becoming mainstream. There's a lot of stuff that we're behind on, especially when it comes to payments. And sometimes it feel intentional.
More to the point of what you're saying, unless I'm parking somewhere frequently, I wouldn't want to top up an account. I rarely pay for parking in my city because I rarely go those places that require it. I have no desire to open an account, give them money to hold, on the rare chance I need to pay. And that money is probably non-refundable once handed over, even if I don't use the service further. I'd much rather pay for parking as I need it, like the old lady in this story seemed to want to do.
It's kinda like a bus or train pass. I have a loadable bus/train card for one city that I visit relatively often. And I do maintain a small balance for convenience, knowing I'm going to use it. But for other cities I visit rarely, I don't maintain a permanent pass. I buy a single fare or 3-day pass or whatever as I need.
It's not the end of the world to keep a balance of a few dollars in there for parking, but you can also just associate a payment method and have the transaction be transparent, as a viable solution.
This reads like you're OK with a few of the 1000 cuts that eventually kill us. Where do we draw the line? Municipality should not have a rent-seeking shit-app for a citizens required duties.
I believe I was clear about how my belief is that this can be done well. Your comment reads like you think it can't, under any circumstances, but can you explain why without the appeal to emotion? Why is the app necessarily rent-seeking? What system would you prefer to use for paying for parking? Coin-operated parking meters?
The fact of the matter is that in many EU countries people don't carry that many coins anymore. Coins have little intrinsic value and they are extremely inefficient. They're costly to create and process, bulky to carry and easy to misplace and mishandle. A lot of the change people have gets lost in various ways, which means the system leaks a lot more value than a parking app.
You can use currency to pay for parking here, but ATMs only dispense €10 bills or higher. You're going to waste money, or you're going to have to get change. You can't avoid the change problem.
Conversely, everyone's carrying a smartphone. There is no additional bulk, production expenses, lost value, the whole thing. It's much more practical and efficient.
If the system is well implemented, it doesn't have to be rent-seeking. The point of charging for parking is to prevent excessive traffic and the massive clutter of out of control long term parked vehicles. This should both be backed by additional policies to reduce car traffic, and the bulk of the money should be channeled to appropriate related programmes (whether this happens or not is a different matter; we suffer from terminal political incompetence, but it does depend a lot on the city).
Not everyone has a smartphone.
Many (most) of the systems are not implemented well.
The minimum balance "feature" means that many occasional parkers will have to "top up" $10 to buy $4 in parking and getting the $6 back costs more than $6 effort for the consumer. Across N consumers means the company steals that money.
One great example is how Daley sold out Chicago parkers to private capital who now gouge both the citizens and government in their rent seeking efforts.
It's not that it can't be done well - it's that private capital doesn't want it to be done well. Putting citizens first means putting profits second or third. You mentioned a lot of ideals, that could work if they were all implemented. In the real world it's not done that way. There aren't additional policies. The money isn't channeled to related programs.
Based on my reading of your comments, you were accusing me of being OK with "1000 cuts that will eventually kill" you. I was not included in this us. I understand that your country has some problems that need fixing, which are not necessarily the same problems my country has. I misunderstood because you were replying to me.
Perhaps if there was one app to rule them all it wouldn't be the "end of the world." But these things are all over and definately in tourist spots, each with their own app, each with their own minimum balance, etc.
I have $7 sitting on an app somewhere near Gatlinburn, TN. It was a $3 parking spot that (of course) had a $10 deposit minimum. While Gatlinburg was pretty cool it is also quite a distance from me so I doubt I'll ever be back. Even if I did go back there are no gaurantees that it would be the same company/app.
I don't even travel a lot (maybe once to a few times a year some years) and I probably have close to $20 spread over 4 different apps. I could definately see someone who travels to different locations frequently having $50+ locked away and being annoyed by that.
The whole concept of paying a company to handle this for municipalities is stupid. Chicago is an aggregious example but there are many more local stories where the taxpayers lose out twice over.
My county implemented such a system for boat ramp fees and parking. Florida, AKA "God's Waiting Room", has an incredibly high elderly population, that sure is a treat watching them trying to figure it all out. Scallop season, in particular, is pure pandemonium trying to get them to download an app to pay for a boat ramp launch/parking. The company in charge of the machines are out of state with a locked in contract which means they simply don't care to help people. The people that do it correctly still get tickets but you can only dispute so many tickets per their TOS. We lose out on local jobs and something like 40% of the money collected (including tickets) is kept by the vendor so the county is making less money than before when they paid parking inspectors to travel from ramp to ramp and spot check vehicles.
In this case I usually just don't pay and plan for court if it comes to that. So far no court.
This happened to me and my cousin a few months ago in a parking garage on the south side of Pittsburgh. Apparently neither of us noticed that you needed to read a QR code to get out of the parking garage.
I can understand taking the risk to park on a street or open parking area w/o payment but those garages lock you in with those gates that one cannot get through.
Thankfully she had a cell phone with QR reader capability because I certainly didn't. My phone was on its last leg and barely functioning.
There was no one there, no numbers to call, no way to get out of the lot without reading the QR code.
Nightmare!
What the hell would I have done if I were by myself at the point? Call the police? How would I get out?
This is the first time I have run across this insanity and it has me concerned.
You get out of your car, walk over to the gate, and lift it up. Then you drive out. Seriously, let them come for you if they care so much. IMO it’s on them at that point if they make it impossible to pay normally. I’ve never encountered one of those that actually locks you in. They can all be opened manually, for safety reasons.
I did not know that! Good bit of knowledge to tuck away just in case.
While I can't say that I love them unreservedly, the parking meters in my little city have credit card readers as well as coin slots. In most respects, this is a straightforward solution to the problem of paying for parking, with only modest effort on the end user's part.
Of course, this leaves the city dependent on whatever suite of software and payment processing the meter vendor provides. Whoever supplies this system is probably collecting some very hefty transaction fees. Public card readers are vulnerable to skimmer implants, though not to PIN capture. There's no guessing how well-secured those databases of credit/debit card numbers might be.
But it's a vast improvement over the swarm of poorly written, privacy-invading, inscrutable parking apps, advertising/malware-vulnerable QR codes, sticky-keyed meter stations (which seem like a carder's dream spot for a skimmer) and other parking payment "innovations".
I'm interested in QR codes because I print art cards like this
https://mastodon.social/@UP8/110668614218055905
I have a very high performance system that prints small codes that read well (not the 15 module monstrosities I see so much in the wild) and even gives each individual card I print today a unique id so it can be like a Neopet or an NFT. The worst thing about it is that most Android devices do not have a QR scanner app pre-installed so to demo the cards I have to walk people through finding one in the store which feels very spammy and scammy and usually works the first time with a newer device but with an older phone you might have to try more than one before you find one that really works.
I think it was a problem that nobody thought about before QR code menus got so common in the pandemic and I also noticed then that the first round of QR codes I saw in magazines and similar spots were made by iPhone users for iPhone users in that they were frequently inverted (not supported by many Android readers) and frequently printed very tiny (which you have to hold your phone very close to, probably closer than your Android can focus) And of course Google, phone vendors and carriers have very little concern for UX so the problem lumbers on.
I think you're relying on outdated information now. Default Android on a Google Pixel has automatic QR detection in the Camera app. I don't know if all manufacturers support it but it's not an Android limitation.
I can't find a source to corroborate, but I was told the patent for in-camera QR scanning was originally held by Microsoft for the Windows Phone. No other mobile OS had it, presumably until that patent expired.
Google’s phones have an exclusive proprietary phone app last time I checked, so you can’t assume that any given android handset will have it.
I would never assume! It's just an extremely common feature, most manufacturers have supported it in their Camera app for models after 2018 or 2019. Here's a site with a thorough list.
I thought it was a built in fucntion anymore of anything higher than "cheap knock off Android phone brand you've never heard of" phones.
My mid-level Samsung phone has it as does my kids phones (not quite the cheapest Samsung phones at the time).
It is so nice not to have to download a separate QR code reader anymore.
Quick question- your interstate system is under the control of the Federal govt yes?
Wouldn't a workable solution be to have a universal RFID based interstate toll payment system that state/local/private parking providers can then piggyback on?
No, the interstate system is actually a responsibility of the state that the interstate is in. The federal govt built it, but then the states have to maintain it. As such, this is why some states have tolls and others don't. And the quality of the highways varies so much.
Back to the tolls, RFID tolling is a thing here, but it's not standardized. One of the biggest RFID tolling systems is EZPass. Several states participate in it and their RFID token can be used across these participating states. But other states have their own systems or are part of other systems. This is the toll closest to me (though I rarely have to use it), but it doesn't accept EZPass. Which isn't that big of a deal, as most people aren't driving across the country with any regularity, aside from semi truck drivers. But at the end of the day, that means there isn't a single, unified system.
Ah that's interesting, I had always assumed the interstates were a federal responsibility. Thanks!
It gets rather convoluted. Budgets aren't just one giant pot of money that different levels of government can pull out of.
If you take an interstate highway, for example that runs through 3 states, each state will be responsible for upkeep on their portion. The federal gov't will determine that each state will get a grant or funding for that road. Sometimes it can be specifically for that road only or sometimes it can be rolled into a fund only usable on interstate roads in that state. There are also thresholds to determine if it is upkeep/maintenance or a major project (lane expansions, high cost overpass system, etc) that will be a separate line item on the budget with costs split between the state and the federal gov't.
The federal gov't can put implied strings attached to some funds as well. I believe I read over a decare ago that part of the reason why roads in Mississippi are so bad is because Mississippi wouldn't accept certain conditions on education standards (I think) set by the federal gov't. One of the tools that the federal government has is to withold funds for other things. Mississippi is a really poor state so what federal money they don't get is state money they need to spend instead.
Please take one step back into the bigger picture with me for a moment ... I don't know if it's hell or not, but we the people are getting more and more responsibility with less and less reward by a System that's not working to our benefit.
Yesterday, a post asking whether a college degree was worth it produced a vibrant discussion but failed to include a dialogue around the increased burden individuals are bearing now versus fifty years ago to get a degree. So internships and apprenticeships are appealing alternatives because they build skills without the burdensome costs. Yet, the individual is still left without a degree to prove what they know, what they've accomplished. Business & government cheap out by not supporting the individual's pursuit of a degree (internships and apprenticeships benefit companies far more than they do individuals: on-the-job training is cheap and convenient for them, not the employee).
The same mentality drives the gig economy - the burden has been pushed onto the individual, not the company, not the government. No more pension, health care, 401k, etc. Nope. Take care of yourself.
And so you can't park your car? Burden is on the individual. Good luck finding somebody to help you get your car outta the impound lot...
I screamed at the wind during COVID because my BIL refused to get vaccinated (he's an asshat on too many levels to enumerate, but this one really pissed me off) ... he's part of a community, he should do what he can to protect that community! It's his responsibility as a citizen!!! I think maybe I get it ... too much has been pushed onto the individual. He couldn't figure out how to park his car and nobody would help him...
A friend and I have been discussing a premise for a new political party: simplification. It's not conservative or liberal or even moderate, it's just about simplifying the citizen user experience (CX — CUX isn't a great acronym) of what's already there:
All to reduce the cognitive burden of navigating basic services.
While I certainly wouldn't be keen on a single-issue political party on this, it's interesting to hear someone else say that. I heard Ezra Klein talk about this in his podcast last year. A transcript of the episode can be found here.
I'd like to draw attention to a relevant and prescient quote from a book published more than 25 years ago, sociology professor David Ashley's History Without a Subject: The Postmodern Condition (Westview, 1997), addressing the problematic impacts of this "flexibility" (the second paragraph is especially on-point):
I really want to absorb what that quote is saying, since it seems to have some interesting insights, but it's extremely hard to take seriously when it also includes complaints about "feminizing the workforce" and "ethnicizing labor pools".
I understand, but what the author means here (developed elsewhere in the chapter) is not a value judgment or complaint, but rather a matter-of-fact observation that such "flexible" modes tend to exploit women and ethnic minorities, e.g. by shifting the means of production to poor labor countries (this was around the time NAFTA came about, and when clothing production became common in the Philippines, China, and elsewhere, with associated hyper-low wages). Additionally, the "feminizing" observation refers to how these jobs bring women into the workforce (as they can work around the demands of motherhood or other obligations), but they do so without the benefits those jobs had when held by men previously. In sum, it provides the illusion of opportunity for these groups while being extremely exploitative, benefiting none but the companies.
I’m not sure about this. At least in my line of work the opposite is true. The company is usually running a loss on the intern, but expects to have a well trained employee by the time they can return to go full time. They get a productive employee having paid only intern wages (and the time of some experienced employees) to get them there.
Seems the US has a lot of problems. And paying for your parking spot is one of them 😄
It looks like the Tildes metadata scraper had a fun time figuring out the Authors.
Yeah, what is going on... article author, comment authors, and some random RTL symbol reversed half the names...
Tildes uses Embedly Extract, and it looks like it shits the bed when it comes to cohost posts:
https://embed.ly/docs/explore/extract?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcohost.org%2Fcathoderaydude%2Fpost%2F2521077-hahaha-we-live-in-he
Which is a bit odd, considering cohost uses the HTML meta tag
property="article:author"correctly, only using it once for the actual linked post author. But Embedly seems to have then confused every instance ofrel="author"as also being the author of the linked post instead of just using the "article:author" property.I'm really not sure what caused the reversal of the names but that appears to be a problem on cohost itself, which reversed a bunch of stuff (even comment contents) in the trpc-dehydrated-state script JSON output lines on the page.
cc: @Akir, since you sent me down that rabbit hole. And @Deimos, since you have reported stuff like this in the past to Embedly and they have fixed the issue.
« hahaha we live in hell » is the official title of the blogpost.
There isn't one specifically, but there's also no rule against changing titles. It doesn't have to be the same as the article. Perhaps you can ask one of the slightly more mod-able users to change the title.
First of all, make ads illegal. Seriously, all of them. Tolerate product placement in media, recommendations and reviews, but anything that promotes unrelated service or goods in an obvious way needs to die. Maybe once the dust settles, most tech will just do what's on the cover and not mask as something benign or useful only to throw you under the bus first chance it gets.
Next, mandate that every piece of software written for the public sector must be open sourced under an aggressive copyleft license, preferably AGPLv3+. Then mandate that every public sector organization who purchases a software solution not based on an existing open source project must provide 10 pages long explanation for every $100k spent detailing cost analysis over the next decade, anti-vendor-lock-in strategy and usability standards implemented.
Finally, mandate built-in user feedback and allocate $1b for a new agency that will go over the user feedback and contribute fixes and improvements.