I may be the outlier here, but in the event that somehow AI is a key component of browsers in the future, then Firefox not developing these features would be the final nail in the coffin of the...
Exemplary
I may be the outlier here, but in the event that somehow AI is a key component of browsers in the future, then Firefox not developing these features would be the final nail in the coffin of the browser. Furthermore, I would hope there's opportunity to monetize them in a way that funds Firefox development as I would assume this would at least put all browsers on equal or near equal footing. It seems AI is the one area where some people are willing to pay and is almost necessary to pay on some level for the current costs of many of these services.
Having said that, the key is that it needs to be optional, and they probably just need to respect that some people don't want any of it and not pull a Microsoft where every time they change something or add some new shiny feature they don't shove it in the faces of people who have made it clear they aren't interested. Just make an option where people can opt out all of AI features now and future ones so they don't have to uncheck or check 50 different boxes.
Given how I already need to remove amazon ads from the homepage on every new install with or without a Mozilla account, this is absolutely not happening.
Just make an option where people can opt out all of AI features now and future ones so they don't have to uncheck or check 50 different boxes.
Given how I already need to remove amazon ads from the homepage on every new install with or without a Mozilla account, this is absolutely not happening.
Personally removing/changing settings I dont want on a new install is standard for any software I use so that wouldnt even register as a possible breaking point for me. I believe what Grumble4681...
Personally removing/changing settings I dont want on a new install is standard for any software I use so that wouldnt even register as a possible breaking point for me. I believe what Grumble4681 is pointing to something closer to when MS does an OS update that re-enables OneDrive and it eats up resources.
In my opinion that would be a breaking point because the software exists already, ive set the settings how I want and it will be forced On against my wishes you know? If im doing a fresh install of something Im personally always checking settings anyway so it doesnt feel onerous when I install something fresh and have to change things to fit my needs.
Hard disagree. I can import every other browser setting through my Mozilla account on a fresh install, including extensions. It is clearly kept out of that loop intentionally, and is not a good...
Hard disagree. I can import every other browser setting through my Mozilla account on a fresh install, including extensions.
It is clearly kept out of that loop intentionally, and is not a good sign if their goal is to wedge other features in against wishes.
This does seem to be where Mozilla is coming from on the topic. I recall one of their earlier posts this year discussing that they felt if they wanted to have any positive impact on the AI...
I may be the outlier here, but in the event that somehow AI is a key component of browsers in the future, then Firefox not developing these features would be the final nail in the coffin of the browser.
This does seem to be where Mozilla is coming from on the topic. I recall one of their earlier posts this year discussing that they felt if they wanted to have any positive impact on the AI landscape they couldn't do that by avoiding AI entirely.
I don't really like it at all, but they are the one non-niche software product that seems to be letting me entirely opt out of AI features. I'd like to see that approach get picked up by other software products.
Yeah it's a shit spot for anyone who respects that AI isn't the magic cure all it's being peddled as, but recognizes it may have some potential future. Like the dotcom bubble, you'd be seen as...
Yeah it's a shit spot for anyone who respects that AI isn't the magic cure all it's being peddled as, but recognizes it may have some potential future.
Like the dotcom bubble, you'd be seen as crazy if after the crash you still didn't have a website, and yet "who needs a website for pet products" was seen as nuts at the time.
Threading the needle sucks, and I agree that there NEEDS to be backlash against this data harvesting forced nonsense, but it also gets a little tiring watching everyone trot out the same "AI SUCKS!" arguments every time a new product adopts because...yeah probably, but I think it does have enough of a future that full out non adoption is likely not realistic.
It gets worse of course because like the dotcom bubble you've got money men and investors who have been told by marketing and sales people outright lies and now have expectations based on that.
Whyyyyyyyyyy I've used Firefox as my daily browser for almost 15 years. I have no desire to switch but if I keep getting AI shit shoved down my throat I might have to.
Whyyyyyyyyyy
I've used Firefox as my daily browser for almost 15 years. I have no desire to switch but if I keep getting AI shit shoved down my throat I might have to.
I am thinking to switch to a fork, Zen browser seems to disable AI features by default. For all these years I didn’t want to use a Firefox fork because it may lack the very latest security...
I used Zen for months and enjoyed it but ended up switching off it back to Firefox due to some serious slowdowns. I also wasn't overly impressed by the communication I saw by the Dev in the subreddit.
I used Zen for months and enjoyed it but ended up switching off it back to Firefox due to some serious slowdowns.
I also wasn't overly impressed by the communication I saw by the Dev in the subreddit.
I'm on Zen now and have been for a few months. Other than its lack of Widevine, it's excellent for my daily needs. And when I do need Widevine, I swap to Safari since I'm on a Mac.
I'm on Zen now and have been for a few months. Other than its lack of Widevine, it's excellent for my daily needs. And when I do need Widevine, I swap to Safari since I'm on a Mac.
I keep four core browsers on my system: Safari, because it's a Mac. Firefox, because it was my daily driver for 20 years, Zen because I like it better than Firefox right now, and Vivaldi because I...
I keep four core browsers on my system: Safari, because it's a Mac. Firefox, because it was my daily driver for 20 years, Zen because I like it better than Firefox right now, and Vivaldi because I sometimes need the V8 engine for things like running the keyboard mapper and firmware updater for my keyboard. I also have Opera but since installing Vivaldi I haven't had any need for it. Probably going to uninstall it after I post this comment.
At the moment they are explicitly marketing themselves as an AI-free alternative to Firefox: https://bsky.app/profile/vivaldi.com/post/3m6yyjfmjf62y. Marketing is not a promise though, for example...
Marketing is not a promise though, for example a few years ago Google and Samsung released ads mocking Apple for removing the headphone jack, and then almost immediately removed it themselves. So I think it's reasonable to be skeptical, but it's also reasonable to trust Vivaldi if they have earned it (I know nothing about the company).
The charger was worse. Samsung made fun of Apple, only for they themselves to forgo the charger 2-3 months later with the new Galaxy S release. The headphone jack at least took a few years iirc
The charger was worse. Samsung made fun of Apple, only for they themselves to forgo the charger 2-3 months later with the new Galaxy S release.
Right? I just re-looked into it, and have set up a monthly donation for it. I occasionally have to use other browsers for work or because I'm setting something up unrelated to my normal browsing,...
Right? I just re-looked into it, and have set up a monthly donation for it. I occasionally have to use other browsers for work or because I'm setting something up unrelated to my normal browsing, and they are strictly inferior to Vivaldi. Happy to support good web practices and no BS AI!
There's a difference between implementing AI features that users can easily opt in or out of and shoving AI down their throats. Given Mozilla's track record, I'll wager they stand a better chance...
There's a difference between implementing AI features that users can easily opt in or out of and shoving AI down their throats. Given Mozilla's track record, I'll wager they stand a better chance than most to toe that line acceptably.
Good, now I can use my AI browser to access AI summaries of AI written articles and really distance myself from the last bits of human effort on the internet. This is immediately eroding any trust...
Good, now I can use my AI browser to access AI summaries of AI written articles and really distance myself from the last bits of human effort on the internet.
Few companies share our strengths. People trust our brand.
This is immediately eroding any trust that I had in your brand.
Third: Firefox will grow from a browser into a broader ecosystem of trusted software.
Just be a good browser. I don't want or need Mozilla integrations into everything.
They need revenue that isn't from Google. Creating other product offerings like VPNs and email masking are viable ways for them to monetize without destroying Firefox.
Just be a good browser. I don't want or need Mozilla integrations into everything.
They need revenue that isn't from Google. Creating other product offerings like VPNs and email masking are viable ways for them to monetize without destroying Firefox.
I wish they would stop competing with Google, et al. They lost the moment Google stepped into the ring. Firefox feels more and more like another corporate browser that only cares about numbers and...
I wish they would stop competing with Google, et al. They lost the moment Google stepped into the ring. Firefox feels more and more like another corporate browser that only cares about numbers and not about its users. LibreOffice seems to be able to provide a good Office suite without buying into all the buzz words and corporate bullshit. Mozilla shouldn't have a CEO, it should have a community manager.
Wikipedia makes more money from donations than they can spend. I don't see why a browser that feels like it's a user agent and not a website agent should do any worse. If 8 billion people can't keep a browser alive, that just means there is zero interest and it should die. But I really don't believe that would be its fate.
The difference is that there’s no alternative to Wikipedia and the engineering effort to maintain a modern browser is much higher. For Firefox, people can simply use one of the many chromium browsers.
The difference is that there’s no alternative to Wikipedia and the engineering effort to maintain a modern browser is much higher. For Firefox, people can simply use one of the many chromium browsers.
I wish there were enough people like us to carry an entire web browser but we are few. They gotta do what they gotta do and I’ll stick around for as long as theres at least a way to disable it,...
I wish there were enough people like us to carry an entire web browser but we are few.
They gotta do what they gotta do and I’ll stick around for as long as theres at least a way to disable it, and it stays disabled when I do disable it.
When I made this post, I copy pasted the title which was 'Mozilla Names New CEO, Firefox To Evolve Into A "Modern AI Browser"' I don’t agree with the change. His message made it clear he wants to...
When I made this post, I copy pasted the title which was 'Mozilla Names New CEO, Firefox To Evolve Into A "Modern AI Browser"'
I don’t agree with the change. His message made it clear he wants to move Firefox toward an AI browser, so including that in the title feels relevant.
I removed Firefox To Evolve Into A "Modern AI Browser" from the title for two reasons: Especially coming from Phoronix, the inclusion of that quote in the title felt like ragebait It isn't the...
I removed Firefox To Evolve Into A "Modern AI Browser" from the title for two reasons:
Especially coming from Phoronix, the inclusion of that quote in the title felt like ragebait
It isn't the main point or theme of the CEO's statement, so focusing on it in the title adds undue weight
I would much rather people read the entire article from Mozilla and then write a comment, rather than first (or just) read "Firefox to evolve into a modern AI browser" and write a reaction to that.
I have since changed the link from the Phoronix article to the actual source from Mozilla, and updated the title again to something neutral.
Even in your changed article, it remains the forefront of the quotes. Removing the main point of discussion from the title is downplaying the point of the article.
Even in your changed article, it remains the forefront of the quotes. Removing the main point of discussion from the title is downplaying the point of the article.
Well I can't imagine this will go over well. Actually reading the article, I think his statement does a good job of both siding AI until the last sentence. Yeah dog, that's a no for me. I can't...
Well I can't imagine this will go over well. Actually reading the article, I think his statement does a good job of both siding AI until the last sentence.
It will evolve into a modern AI browser and support a portfolio of new and trusted software additions.
Yeah dog, that's a no for me. I can't trust any software thanks to AI.
This doesn’t sound tooooo bad…but still not a huge fan of it. I’m slowly starting to switch from Chrome to Vivaldi, which, I know is still Chromium based…but IMO better than fully using Chrome....
Privacy, data use, and AI must be clear and understandable. Controls must be simple. AI should always be a choice — something people can easily turn off. People should know why a feature works the way it does and what value they get from it.
This doesn’t sound tooooo bad…but still not a huge fan of it.
I’m slowly starting to switch from Chrome to Vivaldi, which, I know is still Chromium based…but IMO better than fully using Chrome. And in this case, maybe better than FF too.
The piece starts off promising, pivots too much to AI in the latter half and then the strategy document is very concerning. I think I preferred when their treatment of Thunderbird was benign...
The piece starts off promising, pivots too much to AI in the latter half and then the strategy document is very concerning. I think I preferred when their treatment of Thunderbird was benign neglect rather than focusing on making them have a AI headline product with adoption targets
Yeah the strategy document has a lot to dislike, what jumped out at me: Not for me they won't! And I'll stop using Firefox and Thunderbird if this is what they transform into!
Yeah the strategy document has a lot to dislike, what jumped out at me:
New AI-native interfaces will replace traditional browsers and email clients.
Not for me they won't! And I'll stop using Firefox and Thunderbird if this is what they transform into!
I understand the loss of revenue from Google is a huge blow and they need to make it up somewhere else, but fellas, what are we doing here?? I want to pay Mozilla so they can continue funding...
I understand the loss of revenue from Google is a huge blow and they need to make it up somewhere else, but fellas, what are we doing here?? I want to pay Mozilla so they can continue funding development of Firefox, with the caveat I don’t want them to put my money towards AI services. I’m wait listed for thunder mail, I will gladly pay for that service, and yet none of their paid services are mentioned in the CEO’s blog. Only investing in AI. So much for diversify revenue, Mr. All-My-Eggs-Go-In-One-Dumb-Fucking-Basket.
Sucks to see them go this route but I guess adding the AI label is crucial to getting funding nowadays. I've been wanting to switch away from Firefox recently as I've been experiencing some odd...
Sucks to see them go this route but I guess adding the AI label is crucial to getting funding nowadays. I've been wanting to switch away from Firefox recently as I've been experiencing some odd slowdowns. Since I'm on a Mac, I'm going to try using webkit browsers for a while. I've been using Kagi's Orion on Mac and it's been great though the mobile version is fairly buggy. Kagi is also working on a Linux version (based on GNOMEs browser) so it'll be interesting to see how that pans out.
No need for that. Edit: Thank you for the exemplary, and I laughed at the sentiment attached to it, but my comment was the lowest effort I put into a post in a while. I would personally call it...
Exemplary
No need for that.
Edit: Thank you for the exemplary, and I laughed at the sentiment attached to it, but my comment was the lowest effort I put into a post in a while. I would personally call it noise, not exemplary.
I think that would be better, but I also deem it insignificant enough to ping them for it. My feelings about these topics has reached the level of @balooga simply replying "Christ what an asshole"...
I think that would be better, but I also deem it insignificant enough to ping them for it.
My feelings about these topics has reached the level of @balooga simply replying "Christ what an asshole" to anything US pres related and that was reflected, though unintentionally, in my curt post.
I may be the outlier here, but in the event that somehow AI is a key component of browsers in the future, then Firefox not developing these features would be the final nail in the coffin of the browser. Furthermore, I would hope there's opportunity to monetize them in a way that funds Firefox development as I would assume this would at least put all browsers on equal or near equal footing. It seems AI is the one area where some people are willing to pay and is almost necessary to pay on some level for the current costs of many of these services.
Having said that, the key is that it needs to be optional, and they probably just need to respect that some people don't want any of it and not pull a Microsoft where every time they change something or add some new shiny feature they don't shove it in the faces of people who have made it clear they aren't interested. Just make an option where people can opt out all of AI features now and future ones so they don't have to uncheck or check 50 different boxes.
Given how I already need to remove amazon ads from the homepage on every new install with or without a Mozilla account, this is absolutely not happening.
Personally removing/changing settings I dont want on a new install is standard for any software I use so that wouldnt even register as a possible breaking point for me. I believe what Grumble4681 is pointing to something closer to when MS does an OS update that re-enables OneDrive and it eats up resources.
In my opinion that would be a breaking point because the software exists already, ive set the settings how I want and it will be forced On against my wishes you know? If im doing a fresh install of something Im personally always checking settings anyway so it doesnt feel onerous when I install something fresh and have to change things to fit my needs.
Hard disagree. I can import every other browser setting through my Mozilla account on a fresh install, including extensions.
It is clearly kept out of that loop intentionally, and is not a good sign if their goal is to wedge other features in against wishes.
This does seem to be where Mozilla is coming from on the topic. I recall one of their earlier posts this year discussing that they felt if they wanted to have any positive impact on the AI landscape they couldn't do that by avoiding AI entirely.
I don't really like it at all, but they are the one non-niche software product that seems to be letting me entirely opt out of AI features. I'd like to see that approach get picked up by other software products.
Yeah it's a shit spot for anyone who respects that AI isn't the magic cure all it's being peddled as, but recognizes it may have some potential future.
Like the dotcom bubble, you'd be seen as crazy if after the crash you still didn't have a website, and yet "who needs a website for pet products" was seen as nuts at the time.
Threading the needle sucks, and I agree that there NEEDS to be backlash against this data harvesting forced nonsense, but it also gets a little tiring watching everyone trot out the same "AI SUCKS!" arguments every time a new product adopts because...yeah probably, but I think it does have enough of a future that full out non adoption is likely not realistic.
It gets worse of course because like the dotcom bubble you've got money men and investors who have been told by marketing and sales people outright lies and now have expectations based on that.
Not an outlier. I agree completely.
From everything I've ever read, the costs that people pay are still not remotely profitable.
Whyyyyyyyyyy
I've used Firefox as my daily browser for almost 15 years. I have no desire to switch but if I keep getting AI shit shoved down my throat I might have to.
Change to what though? They're all corrupting into these AI charged browsers.
I am thinking to switch to a fork, Zen browser seems to disable AI features by default.
For all these years I didn’t want to use a Firefox fork because it may lack the very latest security patches, but it is what it is.
I've been a satisfied Zen user for many months now. I say go for it.
I used Zen for months and enjoyed it but ended up switching off it back to Firefox due to some serious slowdowns.
I also wasn't overly impressed by the communication I saw by the Dev in the subreddit.
I'm on Zen now and have been for a few months. Other than its lack of Widevine, it's excellent for my daily needs. And when I do need Widevine, I swap to Safari since I'm on a Mac.
Vivaldi
Thanks but no thanks. For now I'll stick to anything not Chromium based. I find the trajectory of Chromium worrisome.
I keep four core browsers on my system: Safari, because it's a Mac. Firefox, because it was my daily driver for 20 years, Zen because I like it better than Firefox right now, and Vivaldi because I sometimes need the V8 engine for things like running the keyboard mapper and firmware updater for my keyboard. I also have Opera but since installing Vivaldi I haven't had any need for it. Probably going to uninstall it after I post this comment.
If you think a Chromium based browser isn't going to turn into AI shit, you're fooling yourself.
At the moment they are explicitly marketing themselves as an AI-free alternative to Firefox: https://bsky.app/profile/vivaldi.com/post/3m6yyjfmjf62y.
Marketing is not a promise though, for example a few years ago Google and Samsung released ads mocking Apple for removing the headphone jack, and then almost immediately removed it themselves. So I think it's reasonable to be skeptical, but it's also reasonable to trust Vivaldi if they have earned it (I know nothing about the company).
The charger was worse. Samsung made fun of Apple, only for they themselves to forgo the charger 2-3 months later with the new Galaxy S release.
The headphone jack at least took a few years iirc
I've been a user of Vivaldi for almost a decade. Please show me any evidence of Vivaldi going down that route.
if anything, the Vivaldi team is against using AI for the browser, which is refreshing.
Right? I just re-looked into it, and have set up a monthly donation for it. I occasionally have to use other browsers for work or because I'm setting something up unrelated to my normal browsing, and they are strictly inferior to Vivaldi. Happy to support good web practices and no BS AI!
sad that a good stance is so rare these days
There's a difference between implementing AI features that users can easily opt in or out of and shoving AI down their throats. Given Mozilla's track record, I'll wager they stand a better chance than most to toe that line acceptably.
I think you phrased this in a way that contradicts your intended point as those sound the same to me
You're correct. The "can't" was intended to be "can." Edited to correct.
They probably meant "can" instead of "can't" would be my guess.
I assume so, but my telling them is so they know to fix it for clarity not because I doubted what they meant.
Good, now I can use my AI browser to access AI summaries of AI written articles and really distance myself from the last bits of human effort on the internet.
This is immediately eroding any trust that I had in your brand.
Just be a good browser. I don't want or need Mozilla integrations into everything.
They need revenue that isn't from Google. Creating other product offerings like VPNs and email masking are viable ways for them to monetize without destroying Firefox.
I wish they would stop competing with Google, et al. They lost the moment Google stepped into the ring. Firefox feels more and more like another corporate browser that only cares about numbers and not about its users. LibreOffice seems to be able to provide a good Office suite without buying into all the buzz words and corporate bullshit. Mozilla shouldn't have a CEO, it should have a community manager.
Wikipedia makes more money from donations than they can spend. I don't see why a browser that feels like it's a user agent and not a website agent should do any worse. If 8 billion people can't keep a browser alive, that just means there is zero interest and it should die. But I really don't believe that would be its fate.
The difference is that there’s no alternative to Wikipedia and the engineering effort to maintain a modern browser is much higher. For Firefox, people can simply use one of the many chromium browsers.
I wish there were enough people like us to carry an entire web browser but we are few.
They gotta do what they gotta do and I’ll stick around for as long as theres at least a way to disable it, and it stays disabled when I do disable it.
When I made this post, I copy pasted the title which was 'Mozilla Names New CEO, Firefox To Evolve Into A "Modern AI Browser"'
I don’t agree with the change. His message made it clear he wants to move Firefox toward an AI browser, so including that in the title feels relevant.
I removed
Firefox To Evolve Into A "Modern AI Browser"from the title for two reasons:I would much rather people read the entire article from Mozilla and then write a comment, rather than first (or just) read "Firefox to evolve into a modern AI browser" and write a reaction to that.
I have since changed the link from the Phoronix article to the actual source from Mozilla, and updated the title again to something neutral.
Thanks mate, and also for the transparency 👌
I think it is. "AI" is referenced 7 times, the same amount as "Firefox"
And "trust" is mentioned 9 times (10 if you count "antitrust"). I don't think word-counts are the best way to determine the main theme of an article.
Even in your changed article, it remains the forefront of the quotes. Removing the main point of discussion from the title is downplaying the point of the article.
Well I can't imagine this will go over well. Actually reading the article, I think his statement does a good job of both siding AI until the last sentence.
Yeah dog, that's a no for me. I can't trust any software thanks to AI.
This doesn’t sound tooooo bad…but still not a huge fan of it.
I’m slowly starting to switch from Chrome to Vivaldi, which, I know is still Chromium based…but IMO better than fully using Chrome. And in this case, maybe better than FF too.
The piece starts off promising, pivots too much to AI in the latter half and then the strategy document is very concerning. I think I preferred when their treatment of Thunderbird was benign neglect rather than focusing on making them have a AI headline product with adoption targets
Yeah the strategy document has a lot to dislike, what jumped out at me:
Not for me they won't! And I'll stop using Firefox and Thunderbird if this is what they transform into!
I understand the loss of revenue from Google is a huge blow and they need to make it up somewhere else, but fellas, what are we doing here?? I want to pay Mozilla so they can continue funding development of Firefox, with the caveat I don’t want them to put my money towards AI services. I’m wait listed for thunder mail, I will gladly pay for that service, and yet none of their paid services are mentioned in the CEO’s blog. Only investing in AI. So much for diversify revenue, Mr. All-My-Eggs-Go-In-One-Dumb-Fucking-Basket.
Sucks to see them go this route but I guess adding the AI label is crucial to getting funding nowadays. I've been wanting to switch away from Firefox recently as I've been experiencing some odd slowdowns. Since I'm on a Mac, I'm going to try using webkit browsers for a while. I've been using Kagi's Orion on Mac and it's been great though the mobile version is fairly buggy. Kagi is also working on a Linux version (based on GNOMEs browser) so it'll be interesting to see how that pans out.
This is extremely sad. I really have no alternatives to this. Been using Firefox since, what, 2005, I dunno.
No need for that.
Edit: Thank you for the exemplary, and I laughed at the sentiment attached to it, but my comment was the lowest effort I put into a post in a while. I would personally call it noise, not exemplary.
If I could name a CEO, I'd name him "Huggles." Maybe it would be humbling.
Re:Edit
The All-Seeing One will remove it shortly, anyway. Happened a few times to my comments.
I think that would be better, but I also deem it insignificant enough to ping them for it.
My feelings about these topics has reached the level of @balooga simply replying "Christ what an asshole" to anything US pres related and that was reflected, though unintentionally, in my curt post.
Probably a good thing. Anytime I have heard about him it hasn't been good.