Help me choose a small electric car
I moved from Europe back to the US Midwest this spring. While I'm still getting my financial situation stabilized, I will at some point in the next year or so need to buy my own car (currently I am living with my parents and borrowing their cars as needed). Given the state of the world and gas prices, an electric car seems like a no-brainer to me. Less maintenance and with current gas prices I'd save money even if I could only charge at the stations in my neighborhood, much less if I install something simple at home. I'm an anxious driver and have incredibly little desire to drive long distances, so range is also not super important to me.
The problem I've found is that I'm not a "car person" and I'm not sure how to find and pick the right car for me. I figure we've got some car people here on Tildes who will have a better idea of the market and manufacturers involved.
My parameters:
- No Tesla. This is non-negotiable. I will buy an ICE vehicle before I get a Tesla.
- Nothing super luxury. I'm not made of money. I know there aren't any really cheap electric cars available that I'd dream of here in the States yet, but I want to stay as affordable as possible.
- I do not want anything bigger than a sedan. SUVs and crossovers make me nervous and I want to drive a small car.
- A hatchback would actually be my preferred form factor, but I don't think there's many options of that size. The only one I've found upon searching is the Fiat 500e, which appeals to me for that reason.
- ICE cars who appeal to me in terms of size and design include the MINI Cooper 2-door, the Volkswagen beetle, and the Kia soul.
- I'm not wed to getting a new car, but as an anxious driver (thus wanting a lot of the fancy modern safety features and alerts) and someone who isn't super knowledgeable about cars (thus not wanting to rely on my own ability to spot a dud before buying it), I'm leaning towards it. I'll take suggestions for used cars to look for, but keep in mind that since I'm in the Midwest, there may be a smaller pool of used EVs available for me to buy locally.
The most reliable and cheap to maintain vehicles are (non-plug-in) hybrids. You will likely get 300k+ miles without serious maintenance which is unheard of in traditional ICE vehicles. You also avoid the tremendous battery replacement costs of EVs. If you can get an EV, great! If it doesn't pan out, this is the next best way to go.
On the small and cheap end is the Corolla LE Hybrid at $25k USD (56/46 mpg.) All Camrys are hybrids, so if you splurge, that's the next best option in this category.
This is the opposite experience that I've had (sample size = 1), but it also just doesn't make that much sense.
Hybrids - even non-plug-in ones - have all the components of a traditional ICE vehicle, and most or all of the components of an EV, which comes with all of the maintenance requirements of both. On the EV side of thing, there's basically zero maintenance required, but there's still just more parts that probably won't, but might break.
This is a common misunderstanding, one I used to hold too! I used to say, "but it's got two drive trains! We have all the normal ICE problems but with EV problems bolted on!"
What I didn't know was that the "ICE" side is radically different from normal ICE engines. Additional power for acceleration, for instance, comes from the battery, not by running the engine harder. There aren't the constant RPM spikes that traditional motors undergo; the engine putters along at a stable speed. On top of this, the engine isn't always running for daily city driving. These factors considerably reduce the stress the engine is under.
The eCVT in hybrids is bulletproof and is unlike transmissions in ordinary ICE vehicles. This just isn't a failure point for hybrids in the way transmissions of all types are failure points for traditional ICE vehicles. I recommend the following video as a jumping off point for further investigation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnUFH5GX_fI
This is true. However it’s also somewhat irrelevant for the purpose of this conversation. You still have the added mechanical complexity of the engine, which has an incredible amount of moving parts and points of failure. You’ve got spark plugs, fuel pumps, coolant systems, air sensors, timing belts/chains… the list goes on and on. It introduces much more maintenance and expense.
Gas is corrosive so you have to take care of it if you don’t want it to fall apart. Buying a HEV means investing a lot of time and money on maintenance as well as extra money on gasoline, which we know is bad for our health and environment. In contrast, for my EV I need to maintain basically just the minimum things that make it a car; the tires, the brakes, the brake fluid, the windshield wipers, and the windshield wiper fluid. And just in case you are worried about the extra weight of the batteries I am just now replacing the tires at roughly 68k miles on the stock tires, brakes, and brake fluid. The amount of maintenance you will be avoiding by switching to EV is no joke.
There is a reason why people like me are so upset when we see the auto industry step back from EVs. There are so many benefits and actual quality of life improvements you get just from simple electrification that is completely separate from the “smartification” that they keep trying to sell you on. It’s things like never needing to stop for gas because your car gets all the fuel it needs at home or work, or not needing to worry about using gas when using climate control waiting in your car, or the obvious things like how electricity is dramatically cheaper than gasoline and is much less likely to fluctuate because of conflict when our president gets into his latest dick measuring contest.
So what I provided in the comment you are replying to are the reasons why hybrids are more reliable. That they are, in fact, more reliable isn't a contested claim. It's just a true empirical fact that HEVs are far more reliable than EV/PHEVs and at least somewhat more reliable than traditional ICE vehicles. Almost all the empirical data we have either puts HEVs in a window from being as reliable to substantially more reliable than ICE vehicles, and both are far more reliable than EV/PHEVs [1] [2] [3]. I will grant that EVs have a lower lifetime maintenance cost than all other segements [4] despite being less reliable than HEVs [3].
Whether or not HEVs are less reliable than PHEV/EV/ICE vehicles is an empirical claim, one we have data on. Hybrids are consistently the most reliable vehicles. Hybrids have 15% less issues than traditional ICE vehicles while EVs and PHEVs have 80% more issues [1].
Sure, that's true, but I wouldn't contest that. HEVs use substantially less gasoline than ICE vehicles, so a transition to them is far better than going ICE. I'm not trying to dissuade people from going EV. In the long run, everything needs to be EV. But I also think HEVs get an entirely undeserved bad reputation despite being the most practical vehicles you can buy.
[1] https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/electric-vehicles-are-less-reliable-than-conventional-cars-a1047214174/
[2] https://www.carpro.com/blog/j.d.-power-2026-vehicle-dependability-study-results
Note: You may have to find this yourself if you don't have institutional access:
[3] ScienceDirect: Maintenance and repair costs of passenger vehicles with different powertrains: An empirical analysis
[4] ScienceDirect: Comparison between EV, HEV, PHEV, and ICE vehicles to determine the optimal choice for the automotive market
You are stating a lot of things as fact which aren't even supported by all of your sources.
CR supports your asertions, but the CR methodology is extremely vague and only surveys CR members. Because of those two things, I take their results with a huge grain of salt.
JDPower lists ICE vehicles as having the fewest problems per 100 vehicles. Hybrids are slightly worse, EVs a little worse than hybrids, and PHEVs way worse than everything. Though JDPower surveys aren't a great metric for this discussion either, as they do not differentiate between something like a broken glove box and a total engine failure.
The 3rd source asserts nothing on reliability, only that EVs are the cheapest to maintain, followed by ICE, then HEV, then PHEV.
I couldn't find any papers with the title of your 4th source, so I'm not sure where you got that.
CR has a massive sample size of 380,000 vehicles. This is the largest sample space of any of the sources I listed by between 1-3 orders of magnitude. This is a substantially better source than the one you provided for your empirical claims.
You don't think that supports what I said? Let's see what I said:
That JD Power survey is the source where HEVs are as reliable as ICE vehicles (there isn't a substantial difference in the reliability of ICE and HEV vehicles on their report). It's also important that the number of vehicles in this survey is an order of magnitude less than the CR report.
Sample size is only 1 factor in the quality of a study. Methodology is just as, if not more, important than sample size. And because their methodology is not explained, there's absolutely no way to confirm the quality of their data. That's just a fact of statistics and the scientific method.
I'm not providing any sources- I've clearly only referenced the sources you provided, though one of them doesn't seem to even exist.
Regardless, your assertion that HEVs are more or just as reliable as ICE vehicles and that both are drastically more reliable than BEVs is again only supported by 1 source that you provided. If you feel that JDPower results show that ICE and HEVs are close to the same reliability, then by the same logic BEVs are close to the same reliability as HEVs.
I'm not questioning your assertion personally, but 3/4 (2/3?) of your own sources don't support it. That's my only point here.
I noticed some of the problems that @decekiscool had noticed but I've been busy all day so I had Claude Opus 5 do some research for me. I'm sorry for the lazy response, but I'm sure y'all know I'm not usually like this!
https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/65b8e979-39c4-4689-8748-358129e438f5
To make a long story short, I think we're all talking past eachother because we're talking about different definitions of reliability. I'm talking about a car that won't break down because of a major mechanical failure. One thing that I thought was potentially elucidating was this statement:
Toyota has finally gotten with the time and now produces EVs so the numbers coming out of this math may end up changing in the coming years.
Asking Claude a number of follow-up questions has honestly made me come to the simple conclusion that getting the best quality is probably more linked to getting the drivetrain best handled by the specific manufacturer. You'd probably want to buy a hybrid from Toyota and an EV model that's been around for a while and has a proven track record.
3. Maintenance and repair costs of passenger vehicles with different powertrains: Case study with vehicle owner survey in Japan - TRID https://trid.trb.org/View/2604960
If that helps
Which car did you have?
For the Toyota hybrids, that's not true, the hybrid system completely replaces the ICE-style transmission.
I had a 2008 Prius. I kinda just assumed it had the same transmission, but mostly my comment about components was related to things like oil, fluids, belts, and other general wear items that do need replacing as they wear out. Transmission failures are expensive whether they're ICE or the hybrid system, and unless a model is particularly known for transmission issues, probably shouldn't factor into the equation on whether to buy it.
I'm not saying hybrids are unreliable, but they do need to follow basically the same maintenance schedule as an ICE, whereas EVs need basically no maintenance outside of tires, brakes, and air filters.
A hybrid deletes the transmission, starter motor (the beefier generator motor handles that), alternator (see: generator motor) and various other things. Like the AC will generally be driven by a motor because there's no constantly running engine for a belt drive.
Usually there's a power-splitter (simple planetary gearbox, like a differential) linking the two drives to the wheels. That's the Toyota system, more or less. Honda's hybrids physically disconnect the drive motor for highway cruising, using a lockout clutch.
Service schedules usually anticipate significantly longer times between services, due to less engine use, and brakes are also conserved from regenerative braking. The engine also runs at a more constant RPM as significant acceleration is handled by the motor.
I have 2000 miles on my brand new Civic hybrid, and the oil minder is still at 90%. Usually it would be around 30% at 5000 miles on my previous Hondas, and the message to change it comes on sometime below that (15-20%, closer to 6000).
I find it's a good trade off for living in an apartment in the Midwest, anyway. I get a consistent 45mpg (heavy air conditioning use) in the city or on highway driving, can take long trips to bigger cities, and don't have to worry about charging while I'm living in an apartment. Plus, until there's a Civic EV, I'm not inclined to get a EV. Something that's "not a Civic" is off the table for me.
Are people actually doing that? My own bubble of news (granted positively EV biased) tells me that other parts of the car are more likely to fail before the battery degrades enough to be unusable. I certainly haven't changed my habits nor really felt any degration with 2020 Kona EV (150000 km)
EV batteries have outperformed all expectations. The first generations of them are in the 10 years old range now and they mostly seem to still be in good shape. The battery conditioning measures they started introducing have been very effective so I really don’t think it’s worth worrying about. Like you said, other parts will wear out first, and even an ICE car is going to start needing serious work after that amount of time that’ll be well over the $10k-$20k lump sum you’d pay to fully overhaul the battery.
I'm not sure I buy that a hybrid has the maintenance benefits I'm looking for when it's still got all the ICE internal components that need regular maintenance (even if they don't ever serve as a point of failure) in there. A hybrid is definitely an improvement over a pure ICE vehicle in terms of savings on gas, so I'd definitely go with one if I can't get an EV, but it doesn't really add up for me since it still has all the same parts that can fail and need maintenance as a pure ICE vehicle, plus extra stuff. As for EV battery replacement costs, even older EV batteries are afaik holding up for much longer than expected, and with modern EV batteries I'm not particularly worried that I'd incur those costs any sooner than I'd incur major costs from issues with an older ICE engine.
Just want to affirm your beliefs on EV battery replacement. Batteries are indeed actually lasting longer than expected, and manufacturer warranties will cover any early onset problems. Newer EVs have better tech and management as well, so we should continue to see batteries lasting longer. My 2023 EV is at 50k miles and I see only a few miles less range than when I got it.
For a small EV, replacing the battery at cost is not a gigantic $25k bill either. For example, it would cost $6k-$10k to replace my EV6 battery, based on my research.
I recommend this comment where I respond to this worry (a worry I used to share too!) https://tildes.net/~transport/1w1v/help_me_choose_a_small_electric_car#comment-ildu
I think the discussion of reliability in that thread is honestly talking about something different than what I was thinking of, which is the need to perform regular maintenance like oil changes. My understanding is that there are way fewer things that you have to regularly maintain like that with electric vehicles. I have ADHD and as I'm sure my dentist could attest, I'm not great at keeping up with regular small tasks like that even when they're important.
Phew, I see the chain that popped off. I think I'll rephrase your post to help the OP:
Do you trust that you have a consistent ability to perform the ability to charge your vehicle or find yourself in situations that if you run low on energy? Do you have emergency plans to account for that?
Your location of the "US Midwest" is a nebulously large region, but I've lived in it and I personally feel that you can't comfortably answer that question, you should look into a Hybrid as an alternative. I was in the same boat as you and even live in a city, but I do not have reliable ways of guaranteeing I can charge my vehicle. I eventually went with a Hybrid and I feel that my decision was correct. A Toyota hybrid is incredibly efficient for it's purpose and has a ridiculously high reliability compared to other ICE. Additionally, it sips on fuel. I've been able to get efficiencies as high as 50MPG. My Prius is basically an electric car with a fuel generator attached. (Interestingly, as a side note, I could possibly get an inverter and use my car as a mobile electric generator, which would be interesting had I the need for the functionality)
Before anyone else steps in to preach about the evils of fossil fuels and the awful pollution they cause: I know. I agree. However, there are unfortunate realities with living in the current state of North America. Affordable EVs are hard to come by. Infrastructure for recharging is really poor and if you are renting there is no guarantee that you can get a place that allows you to recharge in your parking spot. If you are in the US, the government has been openly hostile to the idea of the vehicles as well, setting back adoption by a lot. Canada is more open to the cheaper Chinese EVs, but the adoption and infrastructure improvements are years away.
OP, I applaud the idea of being conscious about your fossil fuel consumption but I also believe you can be forgiven by minimizing your footprint with a Hybrid if that's a better option given your circumstances.
I currently live in a suburban house with a garage where adding a charger would be trivial. I'm also aware of a public charging station near me, so I have at least some options if I find myself low on power while out and about. I can see not having suitable parking with charging options limiting some of my choices when I move out to rented housing, but there are lots of rental options that would similarly have garages with outlets where I could easily install a Level 1 charger, so lack of access to charging is not a big factor for me personally.
Then I think you have your answer. I live in a condo with parking that doesn't have reliable charging. If you can confidently say you can charge, then go for it. A coworker just got a bolt and I saw it for the first time today. It looks like a decent car from my brief time with it.
EV battery replacement is extremely rare. Not something I would worry about.
You could go for a used Chevy Bolt. I had one for a little over a year (someone hit us and totaled it) and we loved it. You can get them relatively cheap compared to other EVs since they’re pretty basic.
The only downside is that it has a relatively slow charging speed, even at the beefiest chargers. It takes about an hour to charge fully. But unless you’re taking frequent road trips, you won’t use fast chargers that often.
+1 for the Chevy bolt. If you want a small, cheap, and simple EV that doesn't fund a nazi - this is pretty much the only option.
Another happy used Bolt purchaser. I bought a used 2020 Bolt about 3 years ago directly from a Chevy dealership. It had been part of a recall and they'd replaced the battery which was nice. The replacement was still the old battery design (before the switched to a new provider) and did have to get replaced in the first year, but it was under warranty so it was a no cost replacement to us. It was just a hassle to be stuck with a rental car for a few weeks.
Still, following that it's been basically smooth sailing. I don't mind the slow speed while 'fast' charging, because I've almost never needed fast charging. For most of the time I had charging access at work, so once a week I'd plug it in for a day to charge up. I've changed jobs and can't charge at home (no garage or easy way to plug it in outside), so I am going to a nearby fast charger about once a week. It's not a huge hassle for me personally. I just take a book and hang out for an hour with the car AC on, or sometimes I'll just take a nap.
That said, as a commuter car the Bolt is great. Relatively low frills and I've had a good experience with the local dealer. I do STRONGLY recommend switching tires with what ever EV you go with if your part of the Midwest gets much snow. Get like Michelin Cross Climate 2s or something. You sacrifice like 10-15% of your range because they have higher rolling resistance, but the low rolling resistance tires do not do well in slushy snow in my experience. Completely worth while trade off imo.
Cheap electric sedan that isn’t a Tesla basically constrains you to the Hyundai Ioniq 6 or the Nissan Leaf. Of the two the Ioniq is the way to go despite costing almost double the Leaf because the Leaf is reportedly very lame.
If you’re willing to go used you can probably get a used BMW i4 without too many miles on it for about $30-$40k, roughly the same as a new Ioniq 6. A used Polestar 2 would come in even cheaper, maybe $25-$30k.
If you’re willing to scale up to a crossover that opens up a lot more options for you. The Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6 are well reviewed, and a used Mustang Mach-E would probably come in at $20-$30k.
Reviews on the i4 have been fantastic BTW. If I didn’t have kids and a dog I’d be getting one certified pre-owned. A lot of people are trying out EVs and returning them with very few miles right now so you can find great deals on ones that are basically new but with the new car depreciation shaved off so it’s a steal.
But alas, I had to follow Colonel Guile’s advice so I’m leaning to a Rivian R2 when my pre-order ticket is called up.
I'm in Rivian country (central IL) and I do love the look of them. Wish they were cheaper but also I'm not going to need something that big (unless I convince them of my "all electric wheelchair vehicle" PR idea)
You should get in touch and tell them where to send your royalty check.
(ALSO is spin-off company of Rivian’s for developing various micro-mobility vehicles.)
I didn't see a wheelchair accessible vehicle but the formatting was awful on the phone. I just was thinking the PR of Rivian being local to me would help me get a free one.
But good to know they have a spinoff
Oh I misunderstood, I thought you mean like an EV wheelchair. Right now they just have an e-bike, but the focus of the company is micromobility generally so stuff like wheelchairs and strollers are in their remit.
No, I need a wheelchair vehicle, power wheelchairs are already battery powered.
afaik the new Nissan Leaf is an SUV, not a sedan.
The Ioniq 6 looks to be a bit more expensive than the Fiat 500e (which remains the only electric hatchback I can find) but at a similar price point.
Hold up. Here comes a new challenger.
The Chevy Bolt is back. I didn’t realize that was out already. This might actually fit your case perfectly. It’s like a roughly VW Golf sized hatchback and it’s under $30k.
Yeah, Chevy unceremoniously killed the Bolt lineup and then unceremoniously brought it back. 😂
2023 Bolt EUV owner here, @sparksbet. I love it. The photos make it look like a full-size SUV but it’s really not that big. It’s more like a tall car.
I adore mine. If you have any questions about it, let me know, but I do think the Bolt line ticks most, if not all, of your boxes. I would recommend getting a newer model over an older one (they switched plugs and battery chemistry when they revived the line).
Also, I don’t know if it’s still on offer, but they used to pay for the home install of the Level 2 charger when you bought a new one. That’s how I got the plug in my garage. It was nice that it was included in the price of the car rather than a separate expense.
Absolutely big same, love our Bolt to death. Also looks like the new model solved the only real frustration I have with ours: they bumped the fast charging speed up.
It’s really not even an issue if you bring something to do or plan your trip so you’ll need a charge at a meal time. Would def be nice to have the faster charge though!
Omg yeah this does seem to meet my requirements perfectly (and there's one available new at a dealer near me according to Chevy, which means I probably won't have trouble finding one when I'm ready to buy!)
The Ariya is the SUV version. The Leaf is more like a weird hatchbacky thing, similar to the Ioniq5/EV6 but with a slightly smaller footprint. It looks kind of a like an SUV in pictures because EVs are often just kind of like that, with slightly raised floors and long body panels that make them look tall/chunky. But if you park it next to a sedan it’ll take up about the same space.
I drive an i4, actually I'm on my second one. My first one was a lease and the battery was holding up great, so great that I leased another one. If you can find one certified from BMW with low miles that would be my recommendation. It's a good capacity sedan that will get you about 250 miles on a typical charge. Lower than larger cars, but plenty if you can charge overnight.
It is the exact same body as the ICE version except the engine block is replaced with a battery.
With the cold of the midwest I would recommend against a Fiat or Mini. Small car = small battery, and the cold will make your life difficult in the winter.
I think you also need to consider that unlike Europe, most of the people driving with you will be in large vehicles. You don't have to drive an SUV, but there is added danger for you by being in a car as small and low to the ground as either of those.
Frankly if driving scares you then you need to go and take a driver training course beyond whatever is mandate for your driver's license.
Or be like me and just play enough Gran Turismo that you get used to it.
I’m being serious too. I was car free for about 12 years before I got a car again and, when I did drive before I was a reckless teenager who drove like an asshole. When I started driving again as an adult I was super-out of practice and living in a big city with narrow roads and complex traffic patterns with lots of bicycle and pedestrian traffic, which all made me very nervous about driving. Playing a driving sim for a while actually did just get me way more comfortable with the idea of driving and, I think, made me an objectively better driver than I ever was before just because it helped me understand gearing and traction and all these other things I didn’t used to think about from a purely driver’s ed level of driving knowledge to get a license.
To be clear, I said I'm an anxious driver, and that's the case because I did not drive at all while living in Europe and am getting back on the road after 10 years or so not driving. I'm getting back in the swing of things slowly through exposure now that I'm back in the US. I technically had a European driver's license but never actually drove using it while living there.
About the logistics of charging : you may be interested in
our Lord and dishwasher saviormany nerds favorite explainer video about this subject. This may help you calibrate what your needs and expectations about range. TLDR: if your daily commute is like 60km total your more than fine with just any modern EV.As a fellow non-car person who share a lot of your nervousness, how about buying certified used cars? It's be like buying an OEM endorsed refurbished unit.
For example, the Toyota certified pre-owned comes with time/mileage warranties (unsure about fine print) and roadside assistance.
[Noise] If you're buying an electric, yes it's too big but, from looks alone may I suggest a VW Buzz ID? I think they're super adorable and come in a plathora of colours and I could live in one if I became homeless
I've heard good things about certified pre-owned, I'm just worried about actually finding any suitable certified pre-owned electric cars around me.
I've also shipped an SUV from West coast to the Atlantic coast, the total cost was $3287 CAD, independently with a company, so I imagine it'd be cheaper as a sedan through the dealership itself. Might be worth asking if there's a big inventory / price discrepancy. My understanding is that they ship vehicles all the time
I actually bought both my last two EVs certified. The first was a first gen Leaf and that was well warranted, and the second was a Bolt EV, which wasn’t really worth it insomuch as it was in such high demand it was basically the only way to get it at the time.
Slate Truck is taking pre-orders, and Ford Fathom is in a similar price range with a lot of bells and whistles that wouldn't come standard with them. Granted, those are both small pickup trucks, and not sedans, but they are pretty basic, cheap, and available new and a lot of your alternatives are not all of those things.
https://www.slate.auto/en/preorder
https://www.ford.com/electric/fathom/
Edit: Right, there was a refresh of the Chevy Bolt, that would probably check all your boxes.
This is my first time hearing of the Ford Fathom, and now I know why. It's still just an idea. They're not even taking pre-orders until next year. What happened to the F-150 Lightning?
Discontinued and being revamped as a PHEV.
I have a 2021 Kia Niro EV that I bought used. We had to fix an issue with the AC right after we bought it, but otherwise have had 0 issues. I highly recommend it. It's genuinely the only small crossover-style EV that I could find, and it's perfect. It's very similarly sized to my ICE Kia Soul, just... rounder. They're still making new ones.
I was very sad about having so much trouble finding a small crossover — I really did not want an SUV, and I still think that my Soul is basically the perfect car (I wish they hadn't cancelled the EV Souls!). I was really, really excited when we went to test drive this Niro and I saw it in person and realized it was almost exactly the size and shape that I wanted.
It gets about 270 miles on a full charge in the summer, more like 230 in the dead of winter. Have taken it on relatively long drives (central Jersey to Boston) and only needed to charge once in the middle at a fast charger.
We have a 2019 Kia Niro EV. The warranty/service has been solid. But the overall quality has been bad and I wouldn’t get another Kia any time soon.
Shortly after getting the car, we had to replace the motor (under warranty). The AC broke at some point. We recently had to replace an axle (still warrantied). There have also been a handful of issues with the hardware breaking (visor, unlock button on door handle).
I get the impression that their craftsmanship is just subpar.
Meanwhile I have a 2013 Prius that just won’t die. I’d like a new car but I can’t justify it with the Toyota running great.
Huh! That's not quite been my experience — I have a 2015 Soul and a 2021 Niro. The Soul's only real issue is that a few months ago the headlight toggle on the steering wheel came a little loose, which is going to be a simple part swap to fix. Otherwise in the 8 or so years I've had it, I've only had to replace the battery twice. Don't think it's ever needed any other significant maintenance.
The Niro, like I said, did have a serious AC issue when we bought it, which I understand to be endemic to some poor decisions that they made about the AC construction for the Niro, but since we got it fixed we haven't had any issues. Hopefully that's all we run into there...
I am fairly certain that your Soul will also need a new engine at some point. I believe the impacted years for the engine defects are 2014-2017. Have you received anything in the mail regarding a class action?
Hm, no, but I bought it used and have moved several times (and changed my name, all for non-sketchy reasons I swear) since, so that's not totally surprising to me. Though if it survives another few years, I'll probably call it even rather than replacing the engine — it's already an 11 year old car!
Fair. Here's the tell-tale signs...
(source)
In my area, engine replacement is a 1.5-3.5 month ordeal, and it's very common.
Downside is support from Hyundai+Kia is very bad. Hopefully won't ever need to call them, but if you do, expect the timeline to be months instead of days or weeks
Just to add a data point - I've got an EV6, and this was not my experience at all with an ICCU failure.
I heard a pop while driving and the car started to lose drive. I parked, called the Kia service number and explained what happened. They got a tow truck out there to pick up the car and bring it to the dealer. The dealer had the replacement done and the car ready to drive within a week. This was back in the winter of 2024 I believe.
Obviously it was very annoying, but the turnaround was relatively quick and I've had literally zero other problems with the car at 50k miles.
The one thing that was a bit confusing is that I was never offered a short term replacement by Kia or the dealer, but I also never asked about it since we could easily get by on 1 car for a week.
A car that loses ability to accelerate while driving is dangerous to the driver and those around. It worked out for you, but what if it had happened on a busy freeway? It's very bad that Hyundai and Kia cannot (or will not) solve this problem that is inherent in every ICCU they've put in their Ioniq/Ioniq-equivalent.
It's not an instant shutoff of the motor, it's a gradual loss of power. It's a safer failure than anything that would shut off an ICE engine, in that sense. And I was actually on a freeway when it happened. I had time to get off the freeway and pull into a parking lot, without ever dropping below the speed of traffic
I'm not here to unabashedly defend Kia/Hyundai, it's obviously a big problem. But it's not that dramatic of a failure, calling it dangerous is a bit much.
That's better than I thought and if all of the failures are like that, then that's good, but still not anything I'd want to risk. In your case, would you have known there was an issue if you'd missed the pop due to loud music or something? I have a friend who dragged a piece of his bumper for miles and just only mildly questioning why there was a scraping sound.
That's a good point, I definitely noticed the issue quicker because I heard the pop (which I thought was me running over a water bottle or stick, at first). It also helps that I was already aware that this could happen, so when it started needing more throttle to maintain speed I pretty much immediately pieced together what was going on. Definitely still would not recommend it, obviously lol.
A totally unaware driver may not notice until it really gets bad, but I'd think they'd still have time to find a safe spot to pull off to.
It varies a lot by dealer network in your area is my understanding. (Which is true of all makes, but I’ve heard a lot of horror stories about Kia and Hyundai specifically as having really shitty dealer experiences.)
Oh, yeah, I have a local mechanic that I use for everything. My local Kia dealer is probably middle of the pack in terms of suckiness, but I rarely ever go to them.
Late to the thread, but when I got my used 2023 Bolt EV last year, I received good advice here.
Also some notes on running the Bolt EV in a cold climate.
You'll do fine with overnight Level 1 charging if you're driving < 50 miles/day. The charger itself isn't much more cumbersome than an extension cord, so I usually just keep it in the vehicle. Any household 120v outlet on a 15A circuit will do.
...do/will you have ready access to overnight charging infrastructure at home?..that was my primary blocker when i rented...
I currently live with my parents and would be able to install level 1 charging relatively easily here. Finding a suitable place to rent is a longer-term goal and relies on me having my own car anyway, so I don't have a specific current place I'm renting that I'd need to keep in mind.
Don’t mean to nitpick, but level 1 charging at home is trivial and requires no installation. A lot of newer EVs will just give you a level 1 charger upon purchase, and all you have to do is plug said charger into a 120v outlet, and you’re good to go.
You can do the same thing with a level 2 charger, by plugging it into a 240v outlet, but I wouldn’t recommend that if you aren’t confident. Most electricians will recommend wiring in a level 2 charger.
Level 2 is actually pretty trivial in a lot of homes too. Many homes have a 240v plug for a dryers but modern dryers are 115v. In such a case all you would need to do is purchase the appropriate cable and/or plug. That’s obviously very situation dependent though!
Not all modern electric dryers are 115v, they are the minority. When I left the appliance repair job I had 3-4 years ago, 240v for electric dryers was standard.
Edit: gas dryers have always been 115v
Really? That surprises me. I haven’t seen a 240 dryer in forever. But it’s not like I go around touring peoples dryers in the first place. 😅
There definitely are 115 models out there. If you have the space/capabilities go for the 240 models, they will pull fewer amps.
I installed one in my parents garage years ago back when I was living with my family. The experience was…not smooth. But it’s possible that was partially the fault of ChargePoint for making the software setup so convoluted.
Also, mostly just trying to preach caution over convenience. In my case, I knew the max power draw of my car and recently had the electrical redone so I knew the circuit was safe.
Yeah to be clear I mean "I can definitely do Level 1 charging because I've done the hardest part, which is finding where the outlet is located in my parents' garage" lol. I haven't researched much about doing Level 2 bc frankly at home I don't need the speed that badly.
I found it to be a necessity, but only for personal reasons lol. I just really like the convenience of plugging in when I get home and having a fully charged car for the next week or two. Having to charge every day does not vibe with my ADHD, and I drive too frequently to L1 charge once a week since it would take about 30 hours to L1 charge my car in one go.
But I would have to agree that if you don’t need the speed, and especially if you don’t plan to live there long term, level 1 charging will serve you just fine.
I think like others have mentioned in the thread, the new Chevy Bolt might meet all your requirements. However, if you still want to look around, there are some other options though I personally do not have any experience with any of the vehicles below so you'd need to do your research :)
Definitely recommend looking into Certified Pre-Owned (CPO) and also looking into how each brand certifies a car as CPO.
BMW i3: Produced up until 2021, meant to be a small electric hatchback for the city (or short commutes). You might be able to find a CPO one, it shares a lot of parts with other BMWs so repairs shouldn't be too bad. That being said though, it is an exotic BMW still with many BMW i3 only components for its drivetrain so costs can add up quick for repair.
Mini Cooper SE: Produced up until 2024, it's just an electric Mini Cooper essentially. Shares some parts with the BMW i3 but is a completely separate and different vehicle. Given its age, you might be able to find a CPO 2023/24 model.
older Chevy Bolts: Produced until 2023. If the new one is out of your price range, I'd still look at used ones. They stopped production in 2023 but are still solid little cars. I only have distant 2nd hand experience with one of these since a friend drives one around but he enjoys it and he hasn't had any issues in the 7 years he's had it.
Hyundai Kona/ Kia Niro EV: Sibling cars so putting them together. Technically SUVs but they're fairly compact with solid range too for the occasional road trip if you need it. I've heard Kia/Hyundai dealers can be annoying to deal with for service though.
VW e-Golf: Sold until 2020 I think, it's the 7th gen Golf hatchback but electric. Short-ish range of ~120 miles but you mentioned you're not going on long drives so this might be good.
Volvo EX30: Final SUV even if it's a "compact". Lots of range, nice design inside and out, decent build quality.
I would remain open to small crossovers. There are fewer and fewer sedan/hatchback options available in general, and in the EV space, and manufacturers are choosing to make EVs out of their SUVs and crossovers ahead of their remaining sedans and hatchbacks.
As far as I can tell, the only new electric cars (and not crossover) that aren’t a Tesla and aren’t luxury are the Nissan Leaf and the Fiat 500e (The Ioniq 6 is being discontinued). Opening yourself up to crossovers multiplies your options tenfold.
Edit: forgot about the Charger Daytona. There are screaming deals to be had on those.
I have (and love) a 2021 Nissan Leaf. It doesn't have the major battery woes of the first generation, it's a hatchback with good safety/quality of life features (radar cruise control, collision detection, lane assist, cameras), and it's fun to drive.
There are definitely drawbacks. The infotainment system leaves something to be desired in my use case, since it's wired Android Auto instead of wireless and bugs me on occasion to enable a bunch of data tracking that I've refused to agree to. But it works.
It's also not the greatest for longer distances. Like any EV, range is highly dependent on speed and conditions outside, but I've personally driven it 180 miles to visit my parents and another 180 back home a couple of days later with level 1, 120v AC charging off of regular wall outlets only, no fast charging of any kind. I had about 30 miles of stated range remaining each way. Now, I had my Google Maps set to avoid highways, which added about 45 minutes to my typical trip when I drive my ICE car. However, in a previous trip in the Leaf where I took my normal, faster route, I had to stop and fast charge (which is super annoying given the Chademo port on the Leaf) which added about the same amount of time, and was a more stressful trip overall.
But! I bought this car knowing full well that I would not intend to take longer trips in it, based on its weird fast charging connector and the fact that, without the kind of active battery cooling present in other EVs, I can only expect to successfully fast charge about once a day before temperature-based charging slowdowns begin. So this doesn't bother me.
For my actual use case, I drive about 14 miles a day during the work week, and make a couple of excursions a week to a larger city for shopping or meeting up with friends. I only have to charge 2-4 nights a week (120v AC slow charging from a normal wall outlet in my garage, mind you, no special equipment) most of the time, and I could do that less often if I weren't trying to baby the battery by only charging to 80% or less most of the time and not letting it dip below 50% most of the time.
It's got quirks, it's not perfect, but man do I love not having to deal with the gas station. And it's cheaper to fuel, and it's needed no service yet (2 years in), and despite being one of the slowest electric vehicles in recent years, with Eco Mode on it will still put you back into the seat if you want it to.
You can't go wrong with other, nicer EVs, but the Leaf really ain't bad.
Yeah I'm definitely not planning to drive long distances in it, so I'm 100% satisfied with "city driving" type range.
Are there any Renault 5 in your area? I don't have one but it's the one I've got my eye on. It's an EV hatchback that's reviewed very well, but it's only a couple years old so there might not be many used ones around just yet.
Renault hasn't been available in the US market since the 1980s.
Ok so, the biggest constraint problem you have here is size, but it's not insurmountable. If something like a Hyundai Ioniq 5 is too big, then that kind of leaves I think the Volvo EX30? Which have their own weirdness being basically a Chinese EV, but also, Chinese EVs are pretty reliable hey, so I think that's probably your best bet. You can find deals on the weird Nissan/Honda/Toyota crossover EVs, because they sold like shit, but I'm sure they are fine cars, there's also the similar Suburu version or whatever, the Japanese manufacturers kind of half-assed crossover EVs, but I've not heard anything particularly bad about them, just that the Hyundais were better equipped. I think it will be tough to find anything smaller.
As far as PHEVs, yeah there are a few options that are still small, prius namely, or the Ford C-max before it was discontinued (I have a 2015 chugging along just fine), but I agree with you. I think in 2026 you can commit to full EV and be happy
Look into a chevy bolt, 2022-2023.
I shopped for an new electric vehicle in 2022. I ended up getting a kia EV6 but I have a family so wanted more of a wagon size, Plus I like something fun to drive. The bolt was my maximum practical option on the spreadsheet, affordable, reasonably reliable, could technically fit the family, had a hatchback. everything we needed. it was just a little too boring for us.
Some of the 2022 bolts were part of a battery recall, but that should be taken care of by now and might even mean their batteries are newer. Other downside are the battery packs are supposed to do badly in cold weather, meaning the range is reduced. They also don't charge that fast.
I would only recommending getting an EV if you can have some kind of home charging situation. Public charges are still a pain in my experience. But a regular wall plug, extension cord type of situation is fine, just let it charge slow overnight. I think Its better for the battery anyway.
Starting in 2022 every bolt has: automatic emergency braking, forward collision avoidance, pedestrian detection, automatic high beams, and lane-departure warning, plus lane keep assist before that it was an option. buying used in the 1-5 years old range is pretty reasonable. you can get lease returns, etc.
Any car in the last 5 years should be pretty safe and have those types of safety features at least as options.
An EV mini 2020-2024 would be not as practical but fun option. its a little less reliable, and more expensive to repair, has a much worse range than the bolt, and also charges slow. But honestly I might still have the mini over the bolt. I think It looks nicer. The steering is probably nice and tight and you feel the road. All the ICE mini's I've driven had a nice spry stiff feel when driving them, the EVs are probably the same. The bolt was more smooth and comfortable without feedback. Its worth driving and seeing which feels better to you.
I'm not certain about the availability of the car in the US, but the Volkswagen ID Polo is a neat little electric hatchback. Not too expensive either.
What a shame you're in the US - there are so, so many Chinese EV options that tick all your boxes here in Australia.
I replaced my old 2004 Hyundai Elantra with a 2017 Fiat 500e a couple years ago and really like it. I'm also not a car person, wanted something small (it's sooooo small I love it so much), and 99.9% of the time only drive places within a 20 mile radius or so, so its range is not a problem at all. Interior is all physical controls for windows/AC/etc, and with the back seats folded down it's got enough storage for even absurdly large grocery runs. Mine has an aftermarket Android head unit (which I just use for OsmAnd offline maps and bluetooth music from my phone), so I'm not sure how the stock one is or what it's capable of (I know it doesn't have any kind of screen at all).
Only reason I wouldn't wholeheartedly recommend it is for someone who has to regularly drive outside of its range.
edited to add--I only drive maybe a few times a month, so I charge it from a normal 120V outlet in my garage, which is good enough to fully charge it over night even on the extremely rare occasions I run the battery low (like 20-ish% is probably about as low as I've ever gotten it).