58 votes

Why you should consider a smaller keyboard

Intro

Whenever smaller keyboards come up online, I often see a lot of the same reactions/dismissals. I've found many of these to be foolish, but also that the community around such devices has its own barriers. It sometimes is represented from its most extreme aspects rather than someone with a more normal approach and use case.

So here is yet another pitch on why you might want to consider trying out some of the smaller keyboards out there, and the various advantages it can bring. This will probably be quite long, but I hope it at least is interesting.

Daily Drivers

My current main use keyboard's are-
  • Corne LP split 40 - I carry this with me and use it for work and as a better keyboard for my GPD Pocket 3.

  • Mercutio 40 - for my lighter media/older/lower spec game machine.

  • Discipline 65 - for my gaming machine as at the time having the number row still seemed needed (and it just looks so nice)

  • Velcifire wireless 60 - As my other media keyboard since it's wireless and can be used from anywhere and causes my normal friends and family to have less of a stroke if they have to use it. A lot of what i'll say below won't apply to this as it doesn't have some keys and can't be custom mapped. (It's also what i'm typing all this on, much to my chagrin.)

I've gone through and have owned/own several others but i wanted to be clear about what i'm using in case anyone doesn't have a clue what i'm talking about.

Skills Required

I think the only real "skill" you must have to consider downsizing your keyboard is the ability to decently touch type without looking. If you're the sort of person who still hunts and pecks, no judgement, but this is not for you.

If you're someone who has to code, do data/numerical entry, or type a lot for work, then I encourage you to read on. Those are common barriers I hear thrown out, but in my experience are actually easier with a smaller keyboard.

Why?

The normal keyboard for most machines has a lot of dead/wasted space that could just be used better, and has some keys that are important or have grown more important in really poor positions.

Some main offenders

  1. Capslock - How often do you use capslock? How often do you NEED capslock? If I can convince you of one thing to try out right now it's this, remap capslock (check out powertoys on windows) to left control. As it stands capslock is one of the easiest buttons to hit, and yet it if you moved it over next to Scroll lock you'd probably never mind. A large portion of my job is coding SQL and I never use it because that's what modern formatters are for. Please try remapping it(throw capslock on left control or some combo if you want).
  2. Spacebar- Hear me out, as this might vary depending on how you type. Do you use one or both thumbs to hit your spacebar? If you're anything like me, you use one, and in my case it's the left thumb. This means that I've got a massive portion of my keyboard dedicated to one button, even though I'll never touch more than half of it (you'd be surprised how small you can make the space key and still hit it reliably). Now you might think that you don't need that space, but I'll dive into that more later.
  3. The number row- More on this later, but my brief take on this is that humans are actually pretty bad at knowing exactly where the numbers are when they get away from the home row, and as anyone who's ever had to do lots of number entries know, the 10key/numpad is the way to go.
  4. PgUp/PgDwn/Home/End/Delete- These 5 keys (and control and shift) are great for navigating/editing text/code/spreadsheets/webpages quickly, and could not be farther away from where you really need them to actually do that easily.
  5. Arrow keys- A lot of people think it's fine that they're waaaaaay out there away from everything. I will be proposing an alternative given these are also critical to quick navigation.

How is smaller better then?

The core idea is simple. You can find the home row easily with the homing keys (j/f generally have a bump or some defining feature). You're probably excellent at hitting the keys in relation to that if they're 1 step away from the home row. The farther you are from that, the more likely you'll need to look, and the longer it'll take you to press the key even if you don't. So where possible, it's ideal to try and use space more efficiently to keep the keys you actually need to use near this position.

But how are you going to fit all those keys anywhere near the home row?

My Keymap

As an example, to help explain moving forward, here is the keymap for my mercutio 40.

You'll want to save that json, and then upload it at qmk configurator, which will make it much easier to explore. If you've never looked at this before it can seem insane, but I promise you it's pretty tame ignoring some edge case stuff.

If you don't feel like going through the hassle here's screenshots from the site with descriptions of each layer.

Mostly the same as below but i did fix some missing info below so sorry about that. I'm also leaving the descriptions of my "gaming" layers 4/5/6 in the imgur only because I think that's out of scope for this).

The magic of programable layers and context.

Space is an interesting key. It's a key only ever really tap, never hold (outside of games, more on that later). So, why not double it up, and make it do something different when you hold it?

Well in this case, tapping any of my 3 space buttons gives you a space like anyone would expect, but if you hold either of the left 2, it "shifts" you to layer 1 (base layer is 0), and holding the right one, shifts you to layer 2.

I put shifts in quotes because it's just like the shift key. If you hit 7 on your keyboard, you get a 7. If you hold shift and hit 7, you get &. This is the same concept, and just keep the layers organized in a way that makes sense, keeps it very easy to know what layer what key you want is on.

The Detailed Layers

Detailed Layer breakdowns(assuming you're looking at the json loaded into the website or the imgur album)-

Layer 0 (Base Layer)

Ignore the N/A's on this and the rest (where they'll be another symbol), as they are optional keys i don't have. Mute is also the encoder knob so don't worry about it.

It's pretty basic qwerty in the the middle, and tab/left shift/right shift/backspace/windows/the alts/right control are where they normally are, and left ctrl replacing capslock is something I recommend EVERYONE do.

Space, is still space. In fact all 3 of those spacebars are space...on tap. On hold, the left two "shift" the keyboard to layer 1, while the right one "shifts" the keyboard to layer 2. So just like holding shift + a key gets you a capital version of that key (or a symbol from the number row), holding space + a key gets you something else.

The left control/right windows key are also layer keys. Holding them takes you to layer 3 and they do nothing when tapped.

Finally right shift is where it always was, and is somewhat similar to space. If you tap it, you get /?, and if you hold it, you get right shift instead.

All this to say, that outside of enter, escape, the numbers, and moving control, most people who can already touch type could mostly type on this without any explanation.

Layer 1(Navigation/No Output)

Accessed by holding left space.

All keys that don't actually put a character on the screen (ignoring the left side where i've got some coding stuff but it doesn't really matter).

Up, down, left, right, home, end, page up, and page down are all in instantly intuitive positions and make navigating anything quickly a breeze (home on the left side since it jumps you to the left/start of the line, and end on the right since it jumps you to the right/end) . Enter, Delete, and Escape are the other 3 major keys on this layer, as they are of course useful, but don't actually put text on the screen.

The point is that if you're thinking to yourself, "where is that key on this keyboard" and you know that key doesn't actually put a character on screen, you know it's on this layer.

Layer 2 (Number layer + the rest of the character outputs.)

Accessed by holding right space.

I've turned the right side of my keyboard into a numpad that is always under my fingertips(my middle finger is always on 5, just like a 10 key), and since i'm using the number row numbers, I also have access to all their symbols instantly as well by just holding right space + shift. I also have dedicated *,/,+ keys, and the -/_ underscore laid out to be intuitive as well (higher key increases the value, lower key decreases, so multiplying above division, and addition above subtraction)

Finally we've got the rest of the keys that can output characters but didn't make it to the home row and don't fall into the numpad. `, ;, and . Again they are all basically where they normally would be, but instead you just hold right space and hit the key.

The other 5 keys that output text are on the left hand side near the home row because they're super useful for coding (I also use | and -/_ a lot, but their positions in this layout are intuitive to me). Having the paren's/brackets under/near my middle and index finger is so nice for all sorts of coding.

Layer 3 (Function keys, mouse inputs, music controls, and other misc.)

Accessed by holding "left control" or "right windows".

The function keys are the exact same layout as the numbers. F1 is where 1 on my layer 2 is. So F5 is where 5 is which means it's right under my middle finger. I put 10/11/12 going down on the left because that made the most sense to me, and so far has never caused me any issues.

The mouse/music stuff I don't use that often, but it's something I'd like to mess with a bit more.

I threw capslock on here in the rare cases where I actually need the key because some program or game wants it. I also have Insert on this layer in my live map, but I use it so rarely I tend to forget it until something needs it.

Finally you'll notice that on layer 3, where the G key is, is a toggle to put you into Layer 4. Meaning that once you hit it, you'll jump to layer 4 and NOT return to layer 0 when you let go. This is explained more on that layer and is totally bonus points. The main point of this keymap is done, and I think this is an excellent layout for productivity (or at least a starting point), without having to dive into lots of complicated or unintuitive concepts.

The shorter version

If you don't want to read all of that, the basic idea is that your average person can type on the keyboard with minimal explanation. If they forget where a key is, the other 3 layers all follow rules to help guide them. One layer for navigation and keys that don't actually output characters (home/end/delete/esc/et) and one layer for the rest of the keys that output characters, namely the numbers, which are then also your numpad and ALWAYS under your right hand, centered and ready to go. The final layer is, mainly, for the function keys, still following the numpad from the previous so you can again easily figure out where the button you want is.

What does this gain you?

In the end the main benefits i've found are easier navigation, as I essentially now have a navigation layer with every key i could want on it, and much faster access to numbers. I still do data entry and lots of numbers, and having the numpad always one keyhold away is awesome.

On top of that it's just nice to not have to move my hands so much to type, and to get so much of my desk space back.

I type just as fast as I do on a normal keyboard for basic text, as there's almost no difference, and I type faster doing code/editing text because my numbers, brackets, and navigation keys are all closer at hand and in such a way I don't need to look or even move my hand from the home row to hit them.

So is it just all upsides?

On the typing side, honestly yeah. I've seen a lot of excuses like "well i prefer a numpad" or "how do you type numbers" which I've tried to address in this post.

The only issue i've run into is gaming, where I already really solved most of my problems as shown in the extra layers in the imgur gallery, and think it might even be better for gaming vs the normal layouts.

The only remaining hassle is roguelike games such as stone soup or caves of qud, which LOVE to assign every fucking key a use so there's no easy way to remap things and I have to actually add another layer JUST so i can hit the numpad numbers because I need them to navigate....

BUT unfortunately, you might actually want to acquire one of these keyboards, and that's where stuff gets a little tricky.

Programmability

All the upsides I just mentioned assume you can actually program the keyboard. Thankfully this has gotten much much easier with both Via and ZMK making the process very simple. QMK is doable, but difficulty wise it shared a lot of similarities with trying to get the perfect modded run of Fallout New Vegas going with about 20-40 mods. If you are not more comfortable in the tech world, I recommend ONLY boards that support via software. I believe these days anything that supports QMK supports VIA, but it's worth checking on the via website to make sure the board you're about to get works.

Some assembly required

The mercutio and the discipline I built myself after ordering the parts. They're through hole soldering and were some of the first soldering I'd ever done on my own outside of a quick kit I bought off amazon to practice. It is actually not that hard BUT you need the equipment. It's not horribly expensive to get but it's not cheap either. I do really enjoy just throwing on music and putting these together, but I totally understand that you might just want to, you know, buy the fucking thing already built.

Thankfully many sites offer build services (or you can find them on etsey) which charge a fee to assemble it for you. This is what i've done with every corne i've ordered because it is NOT through hole soldering and I don't have the guts for it, and even still they've all had some eventual issues (although again, i carry mine with me in a very unprotected state because i'm insane so some of that is on me).

Made of money

Especially if you're paying for the aforementioned build services, these things can get into the 200-400 range FAST, which is a lot for a keyboard. There are some cheaper options out there, and the Mercutio was only $70ish before switches(not bad) and keycaps (range from dirt cheap to ungodly expensive).

Still I would not recommend ANY of these for a first time buyer. My first smaller board was a 60% mechanical and those range from $70-100 these days from what i'm seeing.

Take my money....please?

Sometimes you just won't be able to find or buy the board you want in the way you want. There are lots of interesting boards i've seen over the years, but they're either very expensive or only open for a limited time. I had a working cornish zen that died on me. I'd love to replace it. I cannot as they currently don't sell them. Will they make more? Dunno. I hope they do.

Recommendations

I DO NOT recommend diving in head first and suggest starting with something simple like a 60 or 65, probably keychron, as they're a decent budget brand. You might want to go even cheaper with just a 60% off of amazon that isn't even programmable just to see if you outright hate it, but I do think that getting something you can start to tweak as you begin to understand what you want helps adoption.

Final Thoughts

I hope this gave some of you the push to look into all this. I'm glad I dipped my toe in it, less glad about the absurd amount of money i've spent on it (dear god keycaps), and really glad about the moment where I thought "huh i really just don't need all these keys" and pulled some out. I hope I can convince a few others give it a shot and hopefully see the same results. No dvorak or home row modifiers and weird triple tap macros. Just some layers and common sense.

I do still, if nothing else, highly recommend switching left control to caps lock.

97 comments

  1. [14]
    krellor
    (edited )
    Link
    I'm all for people doing what they love and customizing and hacking their gear to be just right. Love that stuff. But I personally just can't get into the significantly smaller or customized...

    I'm all for people doing what they love and customizing and hacking their gear to be just right. Love that stuff.

    But I personally just can't get into the significantly smaller or customized keyboards. The main arguments of navigation and space are just never problems I've ever had. I used to be quite a typist pushing 100 wpm (thanks, Mavis) on regular old keyboards, and worked many years in technology and as a developer. And when I go light, like in travel, I do just fine with a 12" MS surface with a tiny form factor and keyboard, but none of the exotic omissions, complicated programming, etc. Just smaller. I also do find things like the caps lock useful, and don't want to hunt or remember remaps when I'm on the middle of writing a policy paper or other document that has many blocks of capitals.

    I also play some games, though not as much as I used to. And there are two things I like. 1) using default controls, for a variety of reasons, and 2) using macro keys to help with repetitive button presses. When playing things like Risk of Rain 2, I can just press a button and now I never stop shooting, or flying as the artificer. It really helps avoid stress fatigue on the fingers. And even my Corsair keyboard with macro buttons isn't that big for my desk.

    In general, I've been well served by keeping things simple with respect to my keyboard.

    So Godspeed to you crazy keyboard warriors šŸ˜‚, but on this one I find vanilla tastes best.

    53 votes
    1. [13]
      Sodliddesu
      Link Parent
      I can go as small as a 60% (Anne Pro 2) but when using that I miss the numpad and arrow keys and, let's be real, the 'Fn + Whatever' either just means never changing key caps or trying to remember...

      I can go as small as a 60% (Anne Pro 2) but when using that I miss the numpad and arrow keys and, let's be real, the 'Fn + Whatever' either just means never changing key caps or trying to remember even more things with my useless brain.

      Even when I'm using my Vortex Race3 I've got a detached numpad off to the side to pull in for serious data entry time.

      13 votes
      1. [12]
        krellor
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Right. In a way it feels like going too small on the keyboard either means having more keyboards or accessories to swap in and out for different tasks, or you have very specific things you do on a...

        Right. In a way it feels like going too small on the keyboard either means having more keyboards or accessories to swap in and out for different tasks, or you have very specific things you do on a computer that you don't deviate from. Num pad for data entry, spreadsheets, etc. F keys for all sorts of OS and application shortcuts, 1-9 keys are common for games, caps and insert are actually used when I write papers or work documents, and the left control is constantly used. I get it for folks that have a really dialed in work flow, but I feel like you lose a lot of general purpose flexibility and have to translate anything new to your config. 60% is about what I think I could do my work with like with my laptop, but I would end up wanting a num pad, and definitely would be missing keys for games or other odd ball things.

        7 votes
        1. [4]
          papasquat
          Link Parent
          Yeah, I really wanted to like having super customized optimized keyboards, and I have a moonlander right now which frustrates me a lot. I've realized that many of the people who are into this...

          Yeah, I really wanted to like having super customized optimized keyboards, and I have a moonlander right now which frustrates me a lot. I've realized that many of the people who are into this stuff just plain don't do as much with computers as I do.

          I don't mean that they don't spend as much time as I do on computers because that's probably not true, they just don't do as many different things as me.

          A lot of that content is geared towards programmers who only ever use their computer to program.

          I work in cyber security in a management role, and I have a lot of computer based hobbies. On a given day I might write a paper or long email, write some code, use the command line to do some stuff, play a first person shooter, read a PDF, make music, play a flight simulator, watch videos, check out some weird application, play a rhythm game, do some accounting in excel, and so on.

          I've found that the best keyboard to use for all of those things is a normal full-sized querty, mainly because so many applications just assume that's what you're using. Using a nonstandard keyboard just means fighting all of them every step of the way just so you can use your esoteric device.

          9 votes
          1. teaearlgraycold
            Link Parent
            Huh. I do many of those things and I'm very happy with my ergodox EZ. Granted, it's not perfect. But I did not buy it for optimization. I got it to fix my wrist pain (which worked). It's actually...

            Huh. I do many of those things and I'm very happy with my ergodox EZ. Granted, it's not perfect. But I did not buy it for optimization. I got it to fix my wrist pain (which worked).

            It's actually really nice for first-person shooters. I move the right half of the keyboard out of the way and get more mouse space. It's close enough to a normal qwerty that I can switch back and forth between my various laptops. I have one at home and at work so most of the time I'm using the one type of keyboard, both with the same key map on them.

            6 votes
          2. krellor
            Link Parent
            It's like looking into a mirror; I couldn't agree more. There is a lot to be said for plug and play when you sample so many different things.

            It's like looking into a mirror; I couldn't agree more. There is a lot to be said for plug and play when you sample so many different things.

            2 votes
          3. patience_limited
            Link Parent
            I agree, and I'm in a similar situation where I'm doing everything from writing documentation to programming to network admin to editing training videos to AutoCAD/Visio/Excel, etc. throughout the...

            I agree, and I'm in a similar situation where I'm doing everything from writing documentation to programming to network admin to editing training videos to AutoCAD/Visio/Excel, etc. throughout the day. There's a lot to be said for general purpose keyboards - I've still love my trusty old fullsized Logitech G613, especially the numpad and the extra G-keys for macros. Some key combinations have actually gotten harder to work with, and I don't think a truncated keyboard is ever going to be a satisfactory workaround for my own niche use case.

        2. [7]
          Eji1700
          Link Parent
          For what itā€™s worth I have never had to swap any of these for but I did get the 65% for the gaming machine to keep that one easier. As for key caps, I prefer blanks, but thatā€™s back to touch...

          For what itā€™s worth I have never had to swap any of these for but I did get the 65% for the gaming machine to keep that one easier.

          As for key caps, I prefer blanks, but thatā€™s back to touch typing. I donā€™t need to really remember where my keys are though as theyā€™re just right there. Again the idea is a more intuitive layout makes it easy

          2 votes
          1. krellor
            Link Parent
            I don't know that I would call it a more intuitive layout. It is more customized to your style. Which is great, and if it helps you with typing efficiency, all the better. But for general purpose...

            I don't know that I would call it a more intuitive layout. It is more customized to your style. Which is great, and if it helps you with typing efficiency, all the better. But for general purpose computing, a standard keyboard with labeled caps is hard to argue against.

            I'll date myself here, but I first learned typing on a typewriter, and when I transitioned to computers it was those old IBM chonkers with 4 rows of function keys. When I actually trained my typing, I could type dictated text at about 100wpm on what is now considered a standard keyboard, obviously all touch typing.

            I even programmed on an IBM mainframe, so between Unix, Linux, Solaris, DOS, zOS, Hercules, and FreeBSD, I've just about completed the obscure OS bingo card. Having switched so much technology, where some OSs don't even have the same endian scheme made me appreciate things that are simple, labeled, and documented/Googleable.

            So I suppose I'm a bit in the if it's not broke camp. Since I can easily and quickly touch type, have extra configurability to support macros, and don't have any unique workflow that really calls for it, I just don't think it's a boon to me to rewire how I interface with computers. It'd be different if I was experiencing some frustration with the layout.

            Again though, I think it's awesome that folks can hack together custom kit for their computers and definitely support people doing that. I just hack together different things. Like thermostats. My poor wife had to deal with my phase where I custom coded our thermostats using Arduino's, and you could change modes by swapping jumpers. Moving jumpers is obviously more intuitive than overloaded button presses. šŸ™„šŸ˜‚

            10 votes
          2. [5]
            zipf_slaw
            Link Parent
            But I shouldn't need to go back into touch-typing position every time I want to hit one or two specific keys. I want to look at the keyboard and see what key is what. And it's already hard enough...

            As for key caps, I prefer blanks, but thatā€™s back to touch typing.

            But I shouldn't need to go back into touch-typing position every time I want to hit one or two specific keys. I want to look at the keyboard and see what key is what.

            And it's already hard enough to switch between different keyboards as I use different workstations - you're proposing I make my muscle memory even more disparate from what I use away from home.

            4 votes
            1. [4]
              Eji1700
              Link Parent
              So to me, this is weird. The question i have is "Why are you leaving the touch typing position in the first place? Wouldn't it be better if you didn't have to?" In my current setup i do that to...

              But I shouldn't need to go back into touch-typing position every time I want to hit one or two specific keys.

              So to me, this is weird. The question i have is "Why are you leaving the touch typing position in the first place? Wouldn't it be better if you didn't have to?"

              In my current setup i do that to grab my mouse, and then I go back to it because from there I can hit any key I need.

              In a normal setup (what i'm using right now), I have to leave it to-

              1. Use the numpad
              2. Use the arrows
              3. Use the insert-pagedown cluster
              4. Use the Function keys.

              So the whole point of this was to get away from having to leave the touch typing position, and to make it so from that position I can hit every single key. And to actually get some use out of my right thumb, which is otherwise just floating there useless.

              As for the muslce memory, I think you're overrating the adjustment. A major point to my layout is that the vast majority of keys are still exactly where you expect them to be.

              4 votes
              1. [2]
                zipf_slaw
                Link Parent
                Because sitting still is uncomfortable and bad for you. I'm not writing novels where I am continually generating text. I'm reviewing documents. Analyzing data. Reading articles. Copy/pasting...

                Why are you leaving the touch typing position in the first place? Wouldn't it be better if you didn't have to?"

                Because sitting still is uncomfortable and bad for you. I'm not writing novels where I am continually generating text. I'm reviewing documents. Analyzing data. Reading articles. Copy/pasting information across various spreadsheet cells. Formatting tables. Generating charts. Right hand = mouse, left hand = hot key combos. So, no, it would not be better if I didn't leave touch-typing position, it would destroy my workflow and productivity.

                3 votes
                1. Eji1700
                  Link Parent
                  Well for what it's worth my workflow is quite similar, although I clearly use a lot more keyboard shortcuts. You can do a lot of what you're talking about without the mouse if you want, and even...

                  Well for what it's worth my workflow is quite similar, although I clearly use a lot more keyboard shortcuts. You can do a lot of what you're talking about without the mouse if you want, and even if you do want to use the mouse (i do as well), I see no reason to want my keys to be far away from where they are easiest to access.

                  I have tested other layouts that work better for exactly this (more on the left side of the keyboard so I don't feel as limited with my other hand on the mouse), but mostly moved away from it as I adopted more hotkeys.

                  1 vote
              2. mild_takes
                Link Parent
                Because we're not robots. Also we are often doing other things at our desk as well.

                Why are you leaving the touch typing position in the first place?

                Because we're not robots.

                Also we are often doing other things at our desk as well.

                1 vote
  2. [3]
    vord
    (edited )
    Link
    My counter arguement, as I see many downsides. I have huge hands. The two most comfortable game controllers I ever owned were the OG Xbox controller (other than that horrific d-pad), and the Steam...

    My counter arguement, as I see many downsides.

    I have huge hands. The two most comfortable game controllers I ever owned were the OG Xbox controller (other than that horrific d-pad), and the Steam Controller. They were the only ones that seem not designed for 6 year olds. I'm immensely familiar with mode shifting, and do love it for some uses, particularily gaming.

    But smaller keyboards are a pain in the ass. I can deal with them on a laptop for portability, but at my desk where I don't need it? Having wider finger spacing lets my hands sit and move a lot more naturally. And I already hate mode shifting enough for regular typing that I installed a keyboard on my phone with a number row. It doubled my typing speed, especially when using ssh on my phone.

    A numpad is 3x faster for entering rapidfire numbers, like in a spreadsheet, that I can use completely one-handed. I don't need it all the time, but when I do, it's a godsend.

    And since I can rebind anything, the capslock has just become a very useful hotkey modifier that other apps generally don't mess with. I do like the idea of using it to modeshift h/j/k/l to arrow keys though, that'll be useful for apps without vim bindings.

    28 votes
    1. Deely
      Link Parent
      Just to add my 5 cents as a person with somehow large hands - I can't use keyboard without numpad, but I never use numpad for numbers. I love to use numpad for quickly moving text cursor, e.g....

      Just to add my 5 cents as a person with somehow large hands - I can't use keyboard without numpad, but I never use numpad for numbers. I love to use numpad for quickly moving text cursor, e.g. pgUp, pgDwn, home, end, etc. etc.

      7 votes
    2. Eji1700
      Link Parent
      On hand size there are options, but again I strongly recommend at least trying to remap the numpad to under your fingers rather than off to the side. You can just make a button press turn it on...

      On hand size there are options, but again I strongly recommend at least trying to remap the numpad to under your fingers rather than off to the side.

      You can just make a button press turn it on (donā€™t even need to hold if you want, I used to do it that way). and youā€™ll be surprised how quickly you adapt.

      1 vote
  3. [5]
    Akir
    Link
    Hereā€™s the thing; I just kind of hate all of the compromises of reduced keyboards. All of those features that they advertise as benefits irritate me. If there is no numpad, then entering numbers...

    Hereā€™s the thing; I just kind of hate all of the compromises of reduced keyboards. All of those features that they advertise as benefits irritate me. If there is no numpad, then entering numbers sucks. If there is no arrow keys, then navigation sucks and some of the old games I play that use them will be practically unplayable. If itā€™s like a laptop and they are integrated in with the rest of the keyboard itā€™s not an ideal layout. I also hate modal input of any sort, so layers are something of an anti-feature to me; I want the keys I am pressing to do the thing I expect them to do and if I have to undo something because I am in the wrong mode it pisses me off. I find it very hard to adapt to weird unintuitive keybindings; perhaps one of the main reasons why I never took to vi is because so many users and guides insist on navigation with the HJKL keys which is incredibly unintuitive and has evaded me regardless of literally spending hours practicing it. So with all of these in mind removing all numbers and making a virtual numpad layer on the keyboard instead is about as close to a nightmare scenario as it goes for me.

    Heck, I even enjoy having the capslock key. It doesnā€™t get in my way because Iā€™m a fairly adept typist with moderately large hands, and I do use it occasionally. When I was using a Chromebook having it replaced with a search button was extremely annoying.

    26 votes
    1. [4]
      jcd
      Link Parent
      Those are also my thoughts. I hate any notion of smaller keyboards, unless used for a very specialized purpose.

      Those are also my thoughts. I hate any notion of smaller keyboards, unless used for a very specialized purpose.

      9 votes
      1. [3]
        Eji1700
        Link Parent
        All I can say is I wrote pretty specifically about those things. I actually think itā€™s much easier than people think, and quickly becomes better. Iā€™m quite confident Iā€™ve done as much of not more...

        All I can say is I wrote pretty specifically about those things. I actually think itā€™s much easier than people think, and quickly becomes better.

        Iā€™m quite confident Iā€™ve done as much of not more number entry over the years, and moving the numpad to be under my right hand at all times rather than having to move my hand over was one Iā€™d the better things Iā€™ve ever done. To the point that I hate using a normal numpad now because of how slow it feels to have to move my hand

        3 votes
        1. [2]
          zipf_slaw
          Link Parent
          Numpad is not for one or two-off number entries. It's for sustained data entry. Your proposal breaks the universality (and grid-layout) of 10-key.

          Numpad is not for one or two-off number entries. It's for sustained data entry. Your proposal breaks the universality (and grid-layout) of 10-key.

          11 votes
          1. Eji1700
            Link Parent
            I'm well aware, and I promise you i'm using it for exactly that, and am confident I can keep up with any numpad user about as well as I could on a normal numpad. It's really not that hard to...

            I'm well aware, and I promise you i'm using it for exactly that, and am confident I can keep up with any numpad user about as well as I could on a normal numpad.

            It's really not that hard to adjust, especially on a board like the corne which has a more grid like layout (different offset) compared to a normal keyboard.

  4. [5]
    devilized
    Link
    I like the idea of this but I enjoy having a numpad more. It's probably the #1 reason why I use a separate keyboard instead of the laptop one when I'm at my desk. I also feel like I'd get. Have...

    I like the idea of this but I enjoy having a numpad more. It's probably the #1 reason why I use a separate keyboard instead of the laptop one when I'm at my desk. I also feel like I'd get. Have trouble getting used to a reduced size when I do have to switch back and forth between an external keyboard and my laptops built-in ones..

    10 votes
    1. [3]
      Eji1700
      Link Parent
      Personally the switching thing isn't a problem, but i'm also the kind of person who's never had issues jumping between console controllers, while some people I know seem to struggle with it. As...

      Personally the switching thing isn't a problem, but i'm also the kind of person who's never had issues jumping between console controllers, while some people I know seem to struggle with it.

      As for the numpad, just to repeat it, I sounded like you before I dove in. Now i hate going back. I use the numpad all the time, that's why i like having it on hand and ready to use, and all i have to "give up" is the thumb I wasn't using anyways has to hold down a key.

      3 votes
      1. [2]
        ElectricFuturist
        Link Parent
        Iā€™ve tried remapping keys on a keyboard which lacked a numpad. It didnā€™t work for me. I had to go back to a keyboard with a numpad. Unfortunately, the keyboard I went to shares the arrow keys with...

        Iā€™ve tried remapping keys on a keyboard which lacked a numpad. It didnā€™t work for me. I had to go back to a keyboard with a numpad. Unfortunately, the keyboard I went to shares the arrow keys with the numpad which makes data entry or modification on a spreadsheet a total pain.

        It was fun to read what you shared; however, I think you have a very specific use case which is rather niche. That doesnā€™t make it bad. It just means it probably wonā€™t apply as broadly as it seems you think it will from your post and replies.

        6 votes
        1. Eji1700
          Link Parent
          I mean, I do want to say that the main point of what i'm trying to get across is that my usecase isn't specific at all. It's mostly just "maybe not games". I

          I mean, I do want to say that the main point of what i'm trying to get across is that my usecase isn't specific at all. It's mostly just "maybe not games". I

    2. public
      Link Parent
      I have a separate 60% board and numpad. Best of both worlds.

      I have a separate 60% board and numpad. Best of both worlds.

      1 vote
  5. [3]
    DavesWorld
    Link
    I touch type. And have several decades of programmed reflexes. The "standard 101 keyboard layout" is not something I'm going to give up. Keyboard makers are welcome to do things around the...

    I touch type. And have several decades of programmed reflexes. The "standard 101 keyboard layout" is not something I'm going to give up. Keyboard makers are welcome to do things around the standard 101, but if they mess with the core I will never, ever, ever, ever use their keyboard.

    My fingers know just where everything is. The spacing is crucial. I've seen and tried to use laptops, for example, that condense it all down so it's not a 101 anymore; horrible. So yes, the spacing and everything matters. No, it probably doesn't if one looks at the keyboard, or hunts-and-pecks. Which I don't; my reflexes are completely dialed into this keyboard layout. Changing it gets me what? A year or two of annoyance?

    I know all about how QWERTY was designed to slow typists down, how it helped mechanical typewriters keep up with fast typists. DVORAK or some other layout probably is faster ... if you learn it.

    The one decision I made back in high school, completely on my own and of my own volition, was to take typing. Because I was using computers more, and was getting headaches from having to repeatedly glance between the keys and screen as I tried (struggled) to do anything on the computer. I was playing text adventure games, for example; that was a serious pain in the ass. The concept of word processing was coming up, but the thought of doing that made me shudder.

    So I took typing. I still remember how annoying it was to learn. The materials, and the bored teacher reading it out to us, stressed what fingers went to which keys. How to memorize where those keys are when you rest your hands correctly on the keyboard. Which lets you then flex and angle a finger to get the right keypress without having to look, or slow down, or think.

    You just type. It sucked learning, but after six weeks I was okay. I could type (slowly, sometimes by pausing to remember which finger needed to go looking for a key) without looking. Then my speed built. And after a year I was into the triple digit wpm range and now I'm happy. Using computers was never daunting anymore because the keyboard wasn't an obstacle.

    I'm not relearning that.

    Also, back in the day, I was temping/contracting a lot. Which meant I moved around a lot. A keyboard layout is not something you could easily adjust. USB wasn't a standard at that point, and keyboards were still ps2 ports.

    Maybe now it's easier to switch out, but not easy? By sticking with the standard, I could walk into any office and dazzle them with my keyboarding speed while fixing whatever issue(s) they'd hired me for. If I'd insisted on "my one perfect unique individualized keyboard layout" ... not so much.

    I feel like there's something to be said for standards. And I don't find anything wrong with the standard keyboard, or the standard touch typing approach.

    Now phone keyboards, holy fuck are those small. And my hands aren't big either, but my thumbs and fingers are still way bigger than the on-screen keys on a phone keyboard. That's an area that could use a huge amount of investment and research to find a better way.

    Every app on my phone that has a keyboard often has a different on screen key layout, and none of them really work well. At least, not for me. I've seen kids who can blaze away with both thumbs, like I can with both hands on a 101 Keyboard. So I know it's possible, but I'm just not invested enough in the phone interface to spend literally two (ish?) months becoming a phone-thumb-typing maestro.

    Basically, my position is leave my keyboard alone, and fix the phones. That would pay benefits. Messing with my keyboard ... pain lay upon that path.

    10 votes
    1. Nny
      Link Parent
      I had to take 3 typing classes in 4 years back in the late 90s/early 00s due to new schools and it being a pre-req for programming classes back then (first was in 8th grade, then needed to take it...

      I had to take 3 typing classes in 4 years back in the late 90s/early 00s due to new schools and it being a pre-req for programming classes back then (first was in 8th grade, then needed to take it in 9th grade to take programming classes in HS, then 11th I dual enrolled at a college and again had to take it to be able to take college programming classes)

      This 100%. The feel is totally ingrained in me, and Iā€™m going off muscle memory when I type (and I type very fast with how ingrained it is). Itā€™s like talking - you donā€™t think about the actions on how to speak(/type), you simply speak(/type).

      Itā€™s like asking me to change the size of my tongue. Could there be a more efficient speaking tongue size? Sure. Except now I have to relearn how to talk, while my tongue is already amazing as is

      I absolute despise laptops because of this and literally will bring USB keyboards with me to eg coffee shops.

      5 votes
    2. Eji1700
      Link Parent
      Yeah if it takes you that long to adjust I wouldn't recommend it either. Personally, while getting over the initial touch typing hurdle in junior high took awhile, i've never struggled anywhere...

      Yeah if it takes you that long to adjust I wouldn't recommend it either. Personally, while getting over the initial touch typing hurdle in junior high took awhile, i've never struggled anywhere near that hard adjusting to other layouts, especially smaller/different laptop boards.

  6. crdpa
    Link
    If you use Linux, keyd can do anything qmk/via can and more without needing a specialized keyboard.

    If you use Linux, keyd can do anything qmk/via can and more without needing a specialized keyboard.

    8 votes
  7. moistfeet
    Link
    This seems very similar to using a tiling window manager on Linux or coding on vim, where itā€™s a cool hobby and you can build a super personalized workflow for yourself. But for the average...

    This seems very similar to using a tiling window manager on Linux or coding on vim, where itā€™s a cool hobby and you can build a super personalized workflow for yourself. But for the average person, the loss of common functionality would make them useless. My brother got me a small keyboard for Christmas a couple years back and itā€™s lack of arrow keys make it functionally useless when I need to type anything. I always end up switching back to a normal keyboard whenever I need to get some real work done. Though the nice thing is that I can tuck it away pretty nicely when Iā€™m not using it since itā€™s so compact.

    7 votes
  8. [5]
    Omnicrola
    Link
    #tangent It absolutely baffles me the number of college students I see who are both in a computer science/computer engineering track, and only pseudo-touch-type. I want to judge them, but clearly...

    I think the only real "skill" you must have to consider downsizing your keyboard is the ability to decently touch type without looking. If you're the sort of person who still hunts and pecks, no judgement, but this is not for you.

    #tangent
    It absolutely baffles me the number of college students I see who are both in a computer science/computer engineering track, and only pseudo-touch-type. I want to judge them, but clearly they're managing by using some weird abomination of touch-type-but-only-with-index-and-thumbs or whatever. I get how they got there, what I don't get is why the curriculum hasn't taught them how to type faster and/or why they haven't noticed someone with faster typing speed and wanted to do that.

    6 votes
    1. em-dash
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I'm one of those people, on standard keyboards! I hit all the letter and number keys with my thumb and the two fingers adjacent to it. I'm faster like this (edit: got curious, did a quick test,...

      I'm one of those people, on standard keyboards! I hit all the letter and number keys with my thumb and the two fingers adjacent to it. I'm faster like this (edit: got curious, did a quick test, 91wpm) than most Real Touch Typists are the normal way, so I've never had a reason to train myself out of it.

      I do a more traditional touch typing thing on my split keyboard (a Sofle), because I had to retrain myself for that and figured I might as well do it The Right Way. I switch seamlessly between the two because they're different enough to not get merged in my muscle memory.

      4 votes
    2. [3]
      Eji1700
      Link Parent
      Related this whole topic is full of "but what about labels", which while I understand still kinda shocks me. I haven't needed labels for a long long time, and I found it became even easier when i...

      Related this whole topic is full of "but what about labels", which while I understand still kinda shocks me. I haven't needed labels for a long long time, and I found it became even easier when i customized my layout so that keys that were hard to reach were now somewhere intuitive to me (ijkl for arrows for example).

      That's basically why that disclaimer is there because yeah, if you're someone who uses labels still, then you're probably not going to be happy with a custom layout. Although I do personally think that if you could force someone to practice with it for a few days they'd find it much easier, that's not a real option especially given the costs involved.

      1. pallas
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Despite being a very proficient typist, who most often types with Dvorak on a Qwerty-labelled keyboard, but will type in a variety of other contexts, including Qwerty and Qwerty-derived Greek...

        Despite being a very proficient typist, who most often types with Dvorak on a Qwerty-labelled keyboard, but will type in a variety of other contexts, including Qwerty and Qwerty-derived Greek layouts, and on other keyboards, I will say that, regardless of practice, labels do seem to help in context switching. If I suddenly switch to Qwerty, having labels there to help guide my fingers seems helpful, at least in a certain confidence; I'm not even sure if it is so much that I am looking at the key labels of letters I want to type, rather than that glancing at the key labels generally, even ones I'm not using at the moment, helps to push my fingers away from the directions that some part of my muscle memory is directly trying to push them toward.Ā¹ They are also useful when switching between keyboard types: I find switching between staggered and ortholinear keyboards to be considerably more challenging when they have no, or incorrect, labels, particularly if the configuration of non-letter keys changes. And I find switching to a new context particularly challenging when typing passwords that don't consist of words, or typing something that doesn't fit the normal context of what I type frequently. It feels like the memory used is very different: for passwords I type frequently, I seem to remember the shape of them, and trying to type them while needing to think about where each key is on a different layout is actually quite a bit slower without labels. I'm not so sure this is resolvable past a certain point with practice: there is just a certain sense that switching involves at least a minute or two to get up to accurate speed. Interestingly this is not so much the case for layouts involving entirely different glyphs: switching between Dvorak and Greek is easier for me than switching between Dvorak and Qwerty, without so much of the pulling sensation.

        This somewhat oddly ends up with Qwerty labels on my most frequently used keyboards perhaps being the most useful, even though they are all wrong most of the time, because it is the layout that I use the least. It's also helpful to ensure that my keyboard is usable for other people...

        Ā¹ I am writing this in Qwerty, and there is a palpable sensation for at least a few minutes as I type that my fingers are being pulled in different directions, even though the keys for which the sensation seems to be the highest are not the keys that I have the most trouble with, which instead seem to be keys that are slightly moved, like 'y'.

        4 votes
      2. ButteredToast
        Link Parent
        Thereā€™s a few keys I still find legends helpful for, but theyā€™re mostly keys that arenā€™t found on 65% and smaller boards. I donā€™t really need them, but they can be a fun element in keycap design...

        Thereā€™s a few keys I still find legends helpful for, but theyā€™re mostly keys that arenā€™t found on 65% and smaller boards. I donā€™t really need them, but they can be a fun element in keycap design when the designer has gone with something other than the usual top-left-aligned Helvetica. Some of favorite cap sets like biipā€™s MT3 Extended 2048 do this.

        1 vote
  9. ackables
    Link
    I understand how smaller keyboards can be faster if you put the time into learning how to use them, but the problem is the learning curve. If a smaller keyboard can be 50% faster than using a...

    I understand how smaller keyboards can be faster if you put the time into learning how to use them, but the problem is the learning curve.

    If a smaller keyboard can be 50% faster than using a full-sized standard layout keyboard in the hands of a skilled user, it sounds like a no brainer, but you have to consider than a beginner using a smaller keyboard will initially be much slower than they are on a full-sized board.

    If someone doesn't even see an issue with their typing speed or the size of their keyboard, then switching only has downsides.

    Keyboard enthusiasts may enjoy the challenge of learning a new format that ultimately makes them more efficient, but I just don't think that switching would really make my life better.

    6 votes
  10. X08
    Link
    I don't miss the numpad, in fact, I've never used it in my entire computer life. I was downsizing about 8 years ago, I didn't want a big gaming rig just chugging away and I was burning out on the...

    I don't miss the numpad, in fact, I've never used it in my entire computer life. I was downsizing about 8 years ago, I didn't want a big gaming rig just chugging away and I was burning out on the race to bigger and better.

    At the time I opted for a Lenovo X395 which has far exceeded my expectations. I love the small form factor, the solid tiny keyboard. It's running Debian 12 atm since I rejected upgrading to Win 11. It runs all indie games perfectly and even bigger games tend to work fine enough at 720p30.

    To summarize, I enjoy the smaller form factor and the smaller keyboard.

    5 votes
  11. [5]
    Wafik
    Link
    Okay, you have encouraged me to look beyond my standard keyboard. My qualifiers: I only care about gaming. I have zero interest in soldering anything. Very limited programming knowledge, so Via is...

    Okay, you have encouraged me to look beyond my standard keyboard.

    My qualifiers:

    • I only care about gaming.
    • I have zero interest in soldering anything.
    • Very limited programming knowledge, so Via is probably the most I would be able to do.

    I looked at your gaming layer screenshots and can definitely see how those could potentially be helpful. I'm 40 and find my left hand will be in pain after a long session of gaming. I primarily play FPS and turn based or 4x games where the keyboard config kind of matters less.

    Is there a small keyboard you would recommend for me?

    Also, remapping caps lock to be Crtl is genius. I need to look into figuring out how to do that.

    4 votes
    1. [2]
      phoenixrises
      Link Parent
      My personal daily driver: https://ergodox-ez.com/ This type of layout could help with your hand pain and you can just get rid of a side if you need more space. Been kinda busy recently but if you...

      My personal daily driver:
      https://ergodox-ez.com/

      This type of layout could help with your hand pain and you can just get rid of a side if you need more space. Been kinda busy recently but if you have any questions feel free to ask!

      5 votes
    2. [2]
      Eji1700
      Link Parent
      In general I always recommend starting cheap because what you do and donā€™t like might vary. I would recommend just browsing keychron for a 60/65 to start. They come fully built, work with via, and...

      In general I always recommend starting cheap because what you do and donā€™t like might vary.

      I would recommend just browsing keychron for a 60/65 to start. They come fully built, work with via, and are 70-100ish usually. Itā€™s a budget brand but generally not a bad one

      3 votes
      1. Wafik
        Link Parent
        Yeah definitely good advice. Thank you

        Yeah definitely good advice. Thank you

        2 votes
  12. ButteredToast
    (edited )
    Link
    40s are a little too much for me, but Iā€™ve been a fan of 60% keyboards ā€” specifically HHKB/Tsangan layout ā€” for several years now. Aside from its size, this layout isnā€™t too radical but has a few...

    40s are a little too much for me, but Iā€™ve been a fan of 60% keyboards ā€” specifically HHKB/Tsangan layout ā€” for several years now.

    Aside from its size, this layout isnā€™t too radical but has a few notable changes:

    • Backspace is moved down to where the pipe key is on normal ANSI keyboards
    • Control takes the place of Caps Lock
    • Arrows are a layer to the left of Backspace/Shift/Return

    Once accustomed to it itā€™s really very comfortable, and now on normal keyboards Backspace feels like a bit of a stretch to get to and Control on normal keyboards is more awkward. Layered arrows require notably less movement and are a bit like vim navigation, except it works with anything you can plug a keyboard into with no plugins or anything.

    But the bigger thing is how with the absence of the numpad and home/end/etc cluster, I donā€™t have this huge chunk of keys either pushing my mouse out to the end of the earth or pushing my home row off-center. The keyboard sits exactly centered in front of me.

    At least for me, this is vastly more comfortable, and though I prefer 60%/HHKB, I can get along just about as well with 65% or 75% instead. 80%/TKL and up is too much because it starts off-centering things, unless itā€™s a ā€œsouthpawā€ board that places its numpad and/or home/end cluster to the left of the main keys, which also fixes the mouse/centering problems.

    I also have a separate numpad that I break out when entering enough numbers to justify it, but Iā€™m not typing numbers too often so most of the time itā€™s tucked away instead of gathering dust and cluttering up my desk.

    4 votes
  13. Aran
    Link
    A lot of the sentiment here gets repeated in pretty much any post proselytizing 40%s. Not saying any are invalid or that people NEED to give 40%s a fair shake - it's not exactly easy or cheap to...

    A lot of the sentiment here gets repeated in pretty much any post proselytizing 40%s. Not saying any are invalid or that people NEED to give 40%s a fair shake - it's not exactly easy or cheap to just go out and "try" one, after all!

    But I really do want to stress some of the talking points you mentioned because I feel like it's been overlooked in favor of looking at the limitations of a smaller form factor keyboard. One does not NEED to be limited in number of keys to take advantage of keymapping at the firmware level. I won't argue that everyone here would be happier to use a keyboard combination to reach certain symbols; I can only speak to my personal experience as someone with very small hands. But even when I was on a standard full sized keyboard, my hands never quite had the accuracy I wanted when reaching past homerow for some lesser used keys. So while I would absolutely prefer gaming on, say, a 60% since not even I will justify having quick single press access to numbers, I'd still have all the rough gist of my 40% layout on my bigger boards.

    I really envy those who can touch-type using the number row, but my fingers physically just can't reach that far without leaving homerow, and it's even worse if I'm trying to access symbols by holding down shift, since then one hand is rooted to either left or right shift and further limits how far I can reach across the row. And the spacebar! Why in the world are two of my thumbs practically dedicated to a single spacebar!? It's a shame that even at the 60% form factor, a standard 6.25u spacebar with no option for a split space is extremely common, and the only gain that it offers over a split space is aesthetics and perhaps ease of finding the correct sizing for split spacebars. But mostly aesthetics.

    My personal daily driver of the last 4ish years is this ghetto not-quite-40%. Ghetto because the compromise made with this board is that it does offer the numbers 1-6, which I only really need for gaming. If a default shortcut in a game expects me to use numbers past that, they're getting remapped anyways. I'm a personal bigger fan of thumb modifiers over simply remapping the useless Caps Lock into either Ctrl or another modifier since I still have a problem with using my pinky fingers on holds, and having only four rows just feels so right. But I also have insanely small hands - for reference I'm 4'10" and I'm pretty sure most 12 year olds have bigger hands than I do - so I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum compared to many who understandably don't think their larger hands can deal with the smaller form factor.

    Will end this rant with a link to a reddit comment containing two imgur albums of the 2019 Tokyo keyboard meetup. Seriously, Japanese keyboard hobbyists are on another level - I only linked the 2019 one since I've been out of the "hobby" since the pandemic lockdowns (and I've been really happy with the above posted board, so less shopping around) and I'm sure more recent meetups have showcased even cooler projects!

    4 votes
  14. [2]
    kenc
    Link
    I have been using a Planck for about 2.5 years and I really enjoy the small form factor and programmability of the keyboard. I find 3 layers is all I need and never really have only problems...

    I have been using a Planck for about 2.5 years and I really enjoy the small form factor and programmability of the keyboard. I find 3 layers is all I need and never really have only problems except when playing a game that requires weird hotkeys like you mentioned, but I mostly use the controller anyway.

    However, since the Planck is ortholinear, I did struggle with when I first switched over from normal staggered keyboards, and it took me about 3 weeks to get used to it.

    3 votes
    1. countchocula
      Link Parent
      i got a planck without letters and its a great novelty. Ill pull it out when i know im not doing anything demanding that day just to crunch the noggin a bit.

      i got a planck without letters and its a great novelty. Ill pull it out when i know im not doing anything demanding that day just to crunch the noggin a bit.

      2 votes
  15. Cannonball
    Link
    I love your enthusiasm for this and I've always liked the look of smaller keyboards (and the idea of freeing up a few inches of desk space) but they aren't for me for one major reason: I am...

    I love your enthusiasm for this and I've always liked the look of smaller keyboards (and the idea of freeing up a few inches of desk space) but they aren't for me for one major reason: I am terrible at remembering shortcuts. Like, seriously awful. Having to toggle and mess with layers would be miserable and I'd have to keep a cheat sheet for everything. A few physical buttons I use less frequently taking up keyboard space is less of an annoyance (for me) than having to look up shortcuts when I do need those things

    3 votes
  16. [6]
    NomadicCoder
    Link
    As a software developer these two statements are so much at odds with one another that I don't even know how to respond. I use the number row non-stop in my job, especially the symbols. In just...

    If you're someone who has to code
    [...]
    The number row- More on this later, but my brief take on this is that humans are actually pretty bad at knowing exactly where the numbers are when they get away from the home row, and as anyone who's ever had to do lots of number entries know, the 10key/numpad is the way to go.

    As a software developer these two statements are so much at odds with one another that I don't even know how to respond. I use the number row non-stop in my job, especially the symbols. In just the single C++ source file that I have open right now I have:

    • 13 instances of ! (not)
    • 31 instances of # (pre-processor directives)
    • 17 instances of % (embedded Matlab code)
    • 2 instances of ^ (also in embedded Matlab code)
    • 23 instances of & (references, bitwise and logical and)
    • 25 instances of * (multiplication, pointers)
    • 342 instances each of ( and matching ) (order of operations, function parameters)
    • 604 instances of - (subtraction, visual divisions in comments)
    • 70 instances of + (addition)
    • 203 instances of =
    • 781 instances of _ (word separators in identifers)
    • 260 instances of actual numbers

    ...no way I'm moving to a number pad for all of those things... that would be nuts.

    ...and yes, I can touch type the numbers and symbols at full speed without error. I only use the numpad when I'm typing a lot of JUST NUMBERS. But when coding you don't do that, numbers are incidental.

    3 votes
    1. [5]
      Eji1700
      Link Parent
      It was my desire to type these easier and to do it without having to move my hand as much that led me into this. I have a several thousand line dotnet project open right now. Moving ()'s to d and...

      It was my desire to type these easier and to do it without having to move my hand as much that led me into this.

      I have a several thousand line dotnet project open right now. Moving ()'s to d and f + right space has made it so much easier. []'s to e and r, and =/+ to s, all because yeah, I use those a ton.

      As for the others, they're also much easier to reach. It's a 3 key chord instead of two, but it's a chord that's always within 1 key of the homerow instead of 2, and I have all the function keys like F5 and F12 the same distance.

      1. [2]
        NomadicCoder
        Link Parent
        The things is, I can type well over 100 wpm on a standard keyboard, and have been able to do so for about 35 years, and that skill extends to any keyboard that I have ever sat down at (unless it's...

        The things is, I can type well over 100 wpm on a standard keyboard, and have been able to do so for about 35 years, and that skill extends to any keyboard that I have ever sat down at (unless it's a horrible mushy piece of garbage, but I don't often need to type on those, but even so I can still type faster on them than most can on a good keyboard). I think honing your skills on a standard configuration goes much further than such micro optimizations, and there are far lower hanging fruit that are easier to optimize and pay far larger dividends, such as automating the things you do every day.

        1 vote
        1. Eji1700
          Link Parent
          My counterpoint to this is I can to? I haven't had a noticeable increase to my skills with a normal keyboard in probably over a decade, and certainly haven't had a decrease at all learning a new...

          My counterpoint to this is I can to? I haven't had a noticeable increase to my skills with a normal keyboard in probably over a decade, and certainly haven't had a decrease at all learning a new method.

          This is why I posted all this, because I don't think it takes shifting to something like dvorvak or major paradigm adjustments which will be hard to adapt back and forth between. My base layer is the same as your layer. You need to know maybe 3 or 4 more keys that have moved to be able to type text. It takes understanding numpad layout to type numbers.

          So at the same time, I use a keyboard for work and leisure for the majority of my day, every single day. Why wouldn't I optimize my most used tool, especially if it cost me nothing when I had to switch back because the layout i've gone with is so trivial to adjust to and from?

      2. [2]
        NomadicCoder
        Link Parent
        Another point -- I have written so many automations and mapped them to so many key combinations that I NEED all of the keys that I have, and more... taking whole rows of them away and using...

        Another point -- I have written so many automations and mapped them to so many key combinations that I NEED all of the keys that I have, and more... taking whole rows of them away and using combinations that I already use for other things would reduce my productivity -- and those productivity automations far out-class potentially slightly increasing my typing speed by a few wpm.

        1. Eji1700
          Link Parent
          I will say this is a thing to consider. I have a couple of hotkeys in some programs that get a little obnoxious when I'm now adding "hold space" to the mix. The vast majority of programs and...

          I will say this is a thing to consider.

          I have a couple of hotkeys in some programs that get a little obnoxious when I'm now adding "hold space" to the mix. The vast majority of programs and optimizations I use don't become a problem, but to take a recent example, windows decided that "paste as plain text" should be Windows + Ctrl + Alt + V, by default (in powertoys).

          This is a batshit insane default, but thankfully not made worse by my layout.

          It is however something I plan on fixing, because again I've got that entire 3rd layer that's mostly unused. The left half being mouse commands is more novelty than needed, and i've still got a bunch of keys I can map. I will likely turn layer 3(left control or right "windows") + v into that that exact command, making it much easier to hit.

          I get the whole "i've got the muscle memory" thing and I think up to a point it's reasonable, but you are missing out on how trivial it is to make some of these macros and setups even easier to hit.

  17. [3]
    NaraVara
    Link
    That split keeb looks nice. Iā€™ve been thinking about replacing my Das Keyboard lately and eyeing the ergodox, but theyā€™re just way too expensive. This seems like a nice alternative. I figured I...

    That split keeb looks nice. Iā€™ve been thinking about replacing my Das Keyboard lately and eyeing the ergodox, but theyā€™re just way too expensive. This seems like a nice alternative.

    I figured I could mitigate the issues by supplementing it with a programmable macropad for media controls, to use it as a numpad when Iā€™m doing a lot of math.

    Though I think Iā€™d miss having a function row, just because thatā€™s necessary for StarCraft since thatā€™s where your camera hotkeys go.

    2 votes
    1. [2]
      Eji1700
      Link Parent
      Thatā€™s another one Iā€™ve wanted to test with my gaming layers. Having the function keys under my left hand felt nice for the rare uses in other titles, but I was curious how itā€™d handle something...

      Thatā€™s another one Iā€™ve wanted to test with my gaming layers. Having the function keys under my left hand felt nice for the rare uses in other titles, but I was curious how itā€™d handle something that needs it more. Iā€™d probably play Dota instead of Sc as I never quite got decent at it but I think thereā€™s something worth looking into there

      1 vote
      1. NaraVara
        Link Parent
        It might be moot moving forward. The next generation of RTS games seem to be converging on unified command cards so you need fewer groups and can get by without camera hot keys as much.

        It might be moot moving forward. The next generation of RTS games seem to be converging on unified command cards so you need fewer groups and can get by without camera hot keys as much.

        2 votes
  18. [7]
    pocketry
    Link
    How do you handle symbols? I can touch type everything except the symbols over numbers. I always have to look at the keyboard to see where the symbol I want is. How does that work with a layer?...

    How do you handle symbols? I can touch type everything except the symbols over numbers. I always have to look at the keyboard to see where the symbol I want is. How does that work with a layer? I've been considering the Voyager (https://www.zsa.io/voyager) because I like low profile and want to try Ortho linear. I have a full size low prifile keychron right now and have loved it. It's a little hard to justify a $300 keyboard when I have one that works just fine.

    2 votes
    1. [6]
      Eji1700
      Link Parent
      Letā€™s say I want to type $. On a normal keyboard thatā€™s shift + 4. On my keyboard itā€™s shift + right space + J. Given Iā€™m never using my right thumb for anything other than swapping to that layer,...

      Letā€™s say I want to type $.

      On a normal keyboard thatā€™s shift + 4.

      On my keyboard itā€™s shift + right space + J.

      Given Iā€™m never using my right thumb for anything other than swapping to that layer, because I always use my left thumb for actual space, itā€™s pretty trivial to get used to using it for when I need numbers/symbols

      1 vote
      1. [5]
        pocketry
        Link Parent
        I had a feeling it would be some sort of combo like that. Did you need a legend when starting? Right now I can't imagine a world where I could type the symbol I want without seeing where it is.

        I had a feeling it would be some sort of combo like that. Did you need a legend when starting? Right now I can't imagine a world where I could type the symbol I want without seeing where it is.

        2 votes
        1. [2]
          Aran
          Link Parent
          OP uses a combo but I'd like to chime in saying that it doesn't necessarily have to be! My numbers are under the QWERTY row if I hold my left spacebar, my symbols are under that same QWERTY if I...

          OP uses a combo but I'd like to chime in saying that it doesn't necessarily have to be! My numbers are under the QWERTY row if I hold my left spacebar, my symbols are under that same QWERTY if I hold my right spacebar. Or on other 40%s I have a specific key to the left and right of the spacebar(s) that act as a modifier specifically for those symbols/numbers.

          I can't stand keypress combos that involve more than two keys, which tends to mean a very specific minimum size (can't go for the REALLY small 40%s) with a particular bottom row layout.

          2 votes
          1. Eji1700
            Link Parent
            Yeah in my case I just bound the top number row to the "numpad" so i could get symbols and numbers all in one spot, but you could break those up. 3 or 4 button combos usually don't bother me.

            Yeah in my case I just bound the top number row to the "numpad" so i could get symbols and numbers all in one spot, but you could break those up. 3 or 4 button combos usually don't bother me.

            1 vote
        2. [2]
          Eji1700
          Link Parent
          Not really, because it's intuitive to me. I know how to use a numpad/10key. You center you middle finger on 5, and then from that you should know where every other number is. I've done the exact...

          Not really, because it's intuitive to me.

          I know how to use a numpad/10key. You center you middle finger on 5, and then from that you should know where every other number is.

          I've done the exact same thing here, it's just that "5" is now "K" (the key my middle finger rests on naturally), so finding 4 isn't hard at all, and of course it's Shift + 4 to get the $ symbol.

          So the only new part is which space button do I hold, left or right. By making it so ALL of the keys which output symbols are on the same layer, and all of the keys that don't on the other, it's pretty trivial to remember which is which.

          This might not be the way you want to do it, but it's very easy to make it so you don't have to look things up so long as you follow rules that make sense to you.

          1 vote
          1. pocketry
            Link Parent
            I don't even know which number corresponds to which symbol. I probably only have the first 3 memorized. So if the symbols are not on the keys, I don't know how I would know where they are. I'll...

            I don't even know which number corresponds to which symbol. I probably only have the first 3 memorized. So if the symbols are not on the keys, I don't know how I would know where they are. I'll probably give it a try eventually, but it's going to be tricky.

            1 vote
  19. Tigress
    Link
    Lol, on the capslock thing, I hate capslock. My mac allows me to deactivate it so it's pretty much a dead button on my Mac cause I see no reason for it other than to be accidentally hit and make...

    Lol, on the capslock thing, I hate capslock. My mac allows me to deactivate it so it's pretty much a dead button on my Mac cause I see no reason for it other than to be accidentally hit and make it look like I'm yelling.

    2 votes
  20. Pavouk106
    Link
    While I won't jump on it, I love this post! It shows what is possible and how to make it work and it's awesome. I'm probably old school, as all I can get away woth it having no numpad. So I guess...

    While I won't jump on it, I love this post! It shows what is possible and how to make it work and it's awesome.

    I'm probably old school, as all I can get away woth it having no numpad. So I guess I'm 70% guy? But I like media keys (can be "hidden" under some combo though. And arrows where they belong, not hidden under Shift or Enter next to Control or Alt.

    The main reason for not going smaller is two-fold - need for Czech layout, which means I need numbers (there are special characters for this language there) and other peopleusing the PC as well, which means no macros to get to some most used things like dot, colon, question mark etc. People need to see the character they want on the key.

    I like how keyboards can look or be customized though. I was thinking about getting another one just for me, but can't justify the cost.

    2 votes
  21. [2]
    Wes
    Link
    I love the passion you showed in this post. And the idea of a split spacebar to act as an additional modifier key is really clever. Personally I don't think I'd be able to go below a 65% keyboard....

    I love the passion you showed in this post. And the idea of a split spacebar to act as an additional modifier key is really clever.

    Personally I don't think I'd be able to go below a 65% keyboard. Probably with enough work I could learn the new layer system and adapt my muscle memory, but I expect there would be a lot of friction. I make pretty frequent use of the arrow keys, home/end, page up/down, and delete.

    I'd definitely be willing to give up the numpad and various Locks (caps, number, scroll). Some other nearly-useless keys like Pause Break, and the menu button could also go.

    As for F row, I'm not sure. It seems redundant, and easily replaced with a modifier+regular number. But they are used fairly often in gaming. And there's a lot of shortcuts I've ingrained over the years (F2=File rename, F5=Browser refresh, F12=Dev tools, and so on). Doable with just a little pain, I guess!

    I won't be ready for a new keyboard for another few years I expect, since mine is holding up well. But when I do I'll definitely be looking into different form factors to find what works best for me. Even if I'm not ready to jump in, it's interesting to see just how deep this rabbit hole goes.

    2 votes
    1. Eji1700
      Link Parent
      It's a shame there's not an easier way to remap basic keyboards to my knowledge. Powertoys lets you do a little on windows, but you can't do the more complex things like turning your spacebar into...

      It's a shame there's not an easier way to remap basic keyboards to my knowledge. Powertoys lets you do a little on windows, but you can't do the more complex things like turning your spacebar into a layer key on hold, which is probably the one change needed to get people more used to moving the navigation and numpad cluster.

      2 votes
  22. aisneto
    Link
    This was such an interesting read. My first experience with smaller keyboards was with a generic Chinese 60% mechanical keyboard. The loss of the numpad was already a big jump for me! But after...

    This was such an interesting read. My first experience with smaller keyboards was with a generic Chinese 60% mechanical keyboard. The loss of the numpad was already a big jump for me! But after using it for years, typing on it became natural, and I would never go back to a bigger keyboard.

    Currently, I'm using an MX Keys Mini, and I absolutely love it. There is a little detail for non-English users, though: accented characters. My mother tongue relies pretty heavily on them. I found a way around this problem by teaching myself to type on the international layout, which has a dedicated accent key (right after ";", which is right after "L"), and surprisingly, this sped up my typing after some time! I was expecting the opposite.

    Also, the MX Mini has a dedicated row for the function keys, which is absolutely an improvement over the 60% layout for me. Mainly because one of the accent keys ("~") would be merged with "Esc", so to type it, I would have to press three keys simultaneously.

    So these two keys are pretty essential to me, and some of the keyboards you've recommended do not seem to have them at all. Another thing is that after changing your typing habits, typing on a regular keyboard can be pretty tough. That should not be a problem for you, however, as you carry your own keyboards.

    2 votes
  23. [4]
    patience_limited
    (edited )
    Link
    I went down a panicky rabbithole over the course of the past year, looking at options for people with hand mobility issues. The landscape of ergonomic split-keyboard text entry is actually rather...

    I went down a panicky rabbithole over the course of the past year, looking at options for people with hand mobility issues. The landscape of ergonomic split-keyboard text entry is actually rather poor from a disabilty perspective. I'm grateful to /u/Eji1700 for publishing his setup, because it's roughly what I'd need to stay productive if I require something as compact as a 60% split for comfort and speed.

    Pre-assembled keyboards with anatomically positioned controls start at around $300, and costs escalate rapidly from there. I was seriously considering the 60% MoErgo Glove 80 at $399, but could probably still use something like the 80% $199 Kinesis Freestyle Pro version with Cherry MX Quiet Red low-impact keys.

    I've dropped from 100 wpm to 50 - 60 on QWERTY, so it's also time for Colemak or Workman.

    I'm also considering swapping out my mouse for a Wacom One tablet, but that's a whole different set of pros and cons.

    2 votes
    1. [3]
      Eji1700
      Link Parent
      Yeah that's where we get into the whole "can i even buy this if i want it" issue. I have a kyria, which is a nice board, but these days a bit big for my standards. Still I think it's pretty easy...

      Yeah that's where we get into the whole "can i even buy this if i want it" issue. I have a kyria, which is a nice board, but these days a bit big for my standards. Still I think it's pretty easy to get, although not exactly cheap, and may not fit your needs.

      1. [2]
        patience_limited
        Link Parent
        Thanks for the mention of the Kyria. Love the rotary encoder idea, but part of my issue is that I need to use my thumbs less if at all possible. I know most ergonomic keyboards attempt to ensure...

        Thanks for the mention of the Kyria. Love the rotary encoder idea, but part of my issue is that I need to use my thumbs less if at all possible. I know most ergonomic keyboards attempt to ensure proper wrist position, minimal ulnar deviation, shorter pinky stretch, lower force keys that don't bottom out... I haven't seen anything that also minimizes the thumb and wrist movements that give me trouble, or mainly uses the pad of the thumb to actuate keys rather than the side.

        1 vote
        1. TangibleLight
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I wonder if any of the highly concave keyboards that have become more popular since 3d printing has become more accessible might help at all? I know of the Dactyl (listed in the page you shared)...

          uses the pad of the thumb to actuate keys rather than the side

          I wonder if any of the highly concave keyboards that have become more popular since 3d printing has become more accessible might help at all? I know of the Dactyl (listed in the page you shared) and its variants, and the Kinesis Advantage seems to be the OG concave keyboard, but I'm not really sure what other options there are. The idea with the Dactyl is it's parametric CAD, so you can customize the shape to your preferred wrist position.

          Generally the strategy seems to be to reduce pinky stretch by offloading layer-selection work to the thumbs. If you can't use your thumbs to do that, I expect you either need to bring pinky-stretch back, or find a non-standard layout that allows you to select layer with other fingers.


          A few general strategies I can suggest - and which you could also try with software-only solutions like AutoHotkey or keyd, or I'm sure there are some MacOS solutions if you use that.

          • Mod-tap keys, which behave as a normal keypress when tapped, or as a modifier when held. For example on my keyboard I have z bound to Win when held, or z when tapped. In QMK, by default, I can still hold the mod-tap key with a double-tap-and-hold, for the exceptionally rare cases I want to hold z. I've had success doing the same on other keys I rarely hold down, like Tab, /, Menu, etc. I'm not sure if there's a similar workaround in the software-only solutions.

          • Leader keys. Have a certain key that you can press which takes some key sequence after, and emits a single keycode. For example you might have <leader> e x emit !, or <leader> a t emit Alt+Tab. You might also see these called "dead keys" or "multi keys" or "compose keys". They're generally pretty easy to set up in software to support diacritics, like <leader> ' a or <dead_acute> a emitting Ć”, but you could technically have them emit any key sequence.

          • Different left- and right-shift. I experimented with this for a long time, but ultimately dropped it. I only type capital letters with the opposing Shift key, so I have left-shift give me capital letters on the right hand, and symbols on the other fingers of the left hand. And vice versa with right shift. Except turns out sometimes I do type capitals with the same-side shift key, for example "I", which is quite a common thing to type. Eventually I just dropped it.

          • Tapdance. I don't personally like this one, I found it too tricky to use, but I know some people who love it so I bring it up here. The basic idea is to bind different series of long- and short- press to different keycodes. For example I might have short emit one thing, short short emit something else, long short emit yet something else, etc. I haven't found any good usages for this except as a leader key for maros... but you might find something. The main issue here is it means the keypress cannot be emitted until after the tapping term, to make sure you've ended the tapdance. If the tapping term is too long the key feels very sluggish and uncomfortable to use, but if the tapping term is too short it's difficult to get the right tapdance. I never found a happy medium so I gave up on it.


          These kinds of strategies are how the truly tiny 30% keyboards work. I certainly don't suggest a 30% for anyone with mobility issues anyone at all, but you still might look to that community for ideas on how to minimize thumb usage. They literally don't have thumb keys.

          1 vote
  24. [4]
    EsteeBestee
    Link
    I actually took my first foray into smaller boards last year. I had never used anything smaller than a tenkeyless, but I bought an HHKB type s. I absolutely adore the thing and it made me...

    I actually took my first foray into smaller boards last year. I had never used anything smaller than a tenkeyless, but I bought an HHKB type s. I absolutely adore the thing and it made me recognize why smaller boards are so popular within the keyboard enthusiast community. It's just so convenient to have many functions as a layer instead of as their own buttons on the other side of the board. I get to keep my hands on home row and still hit everything! For my personal desktop, I still use a TKL, but for work (I do a lot of SQL work like you), I absolutely love having a smaller board.

    2 votes
    1. [3]
      ButteredToast
      Link Parent
      An HHKB Pro 2 was my first foray into alternative-layout keyboards back in around 2015, and it hooked me pretty quickly too. Larger layouts are workable but I wish it were more common to use the...

      An HHKB Pro 2 was my first foray into alternative-layout keyboards back in around 2015, and it hooked me pretty quickly too.

      Larger layouts are workable but I wish it were more common to use the HHKBā€™s positioning of Backspaceā€¦ the standard location for it is a bit of a stretch for such a frequently used key.

      2 votes
      1. [2]
        EsteeBestee
        Link Parent
        Yeah, I absolutely love the backspace and control positioning. My desktop keyboard does have a function that lets me swap caps and control, but it doesn't feel quite right on a non HHKB layout and...

        Yeah, I absolutely love the backspace and control positioning. My desktop keyboard does have a function that lets me swap caps and control, but it doesn't feel quite right on a non HHKB layout and didn't feel that great for gaming, so I went back to default on my desktop board. I do wish I could get a TKL size board, but with HHKB's layout, but it doesn't seem like there are many (or any?) options. I wanted to have the F1-F12 keys on my gaming board and have separate arrow keys and all that, so I didn't just get a second HHKB or clone.

        2 votes
        1. ButteredToast
          Link Parent
          75% with HHKB layout (basically HHKB except with F-Key row) would be pretty interesting to me, but Iā€™ve never seen that either. I have seen a few 75%/80%/TKL keyboards that support HHKB backspace...

          75% with HHKB layout (basically HHKB except with F-Key row) would be pretty interesting to me, but Iā€™ve never seen that either.

          I have seen a few 75%/80%/TKL keyboards that support HHKB backspace positioning, though. The term to look for here is ā€œsplit backspaceā€. Itā€™s very rare on prebuilt boards but you can find it on enthusiast kits sometimes. One such 75% board I saw recently is the Archetype Evolv.

          1 vote
  25. [7]
    TangibleLight
    (edited )
    Link
    It's really frustrating to me to see so many points repeated in these comments about not having enough keys, especially so many people talking about the lack of numpad and function keys, when you...

    It's really frustrating to me to see so many points repeated in these comments about not having enough keys, especially so many people talking about the lack of numpad and function keys, when you specifically addressed those points in your post.

    The critical thing that I think people overlook is that your thumbs are the second-most-dextrous fingers you have, but for some reason the standard layout uses them both to control a single key. 'Ā ' is a very common keypress, to be fair, but do you really need both thumbs for that and nothing else?

    The primary thing is to break the spacebar up into multiple keys; you have two thumbs, so you can press any two of these keys at once without affecting any of your normal typing habits. So use those keys for layers.

    Here's, roughly, my journey from ISO to 40%:

    https://i.imgur.com/GzhFrOK.png

    • Break up the spacebar
    • Make it ortholinear
    • Move common keys closer, and move uncommon keys to other thumb-key layers.

    After this point, people diverge. Some people go very small (like you and I did) down to 40% layout. Some people keep more keys with Ergodox or Kinesis. And all these people have different layers to access the removed keys.


    People say "but what about the numpad?" - I have that. It looks like this

    People say "but what about the function keys?" - I have those. I actually have 15, not 12. They look like this. There are 24 standard function keys, and most professional software allows you to bind shortcuts to all of them.

    People say "but what about the arrow keys?" - I have those. The look like this. I actually have the arrow keys along with Home/End/PgUp/PgDn on the same four keys, right on home-row. This is great for word-processing; I can navigate by-character with the unmodified arrow keys, I can navigate by-word with the Ctrl modifier, and I can navigate by-page with my layer modifier. I can navigate much faster than I ever could with a 105-key layout or with a mouse.

    People say "but what about media keys and macro keys?" - I have those. They look like this.

    In all those images I hide the labels on purpose: the point is that my layout doesn't need to be your layout. I have a non-standard numpad - two rows of 5 with the operators below - but if you have the muscle memory of the standard numpad you could do that, too, right on home row. No matter what your workflow is, if you put the things you need right on home row, you will both access them faster than you ever did on a full-size layout, and you'll help reduce the risk of RSI.

    The one thing I've encountered that 40% cannot support is gaming in general. Most games are perfectly fine on 60%, except perhaps for esports titles where you really can't afford to put any uncommon-but-still-required action on a layer. In general, too many games require a number row or do not allow you to rebind keys, so 40% is just too small for many of those smaller titles. BUT you certainly don't need a full 105-key layout. If you want a reduced layout for games I'd suggest a split 60%-ish layout like Redox or Ergodox.

    Edit: I see someone else in the thread mentioned Sofle which is similar. Lily58 is the 60% that Sofle and Corne are based on which I had forgotten the name of.


    If you don't play games, or if you have a standard layout keyboard to use with games, you can do fine with a 40 for any other task. I really don't understand the complaints about missing keys. My 40% has more keycodes than your stock 105-key, and I can type them out faster without pain since I never need to move my hands.

    Edit: I feel obligated to add this since I just saw @Noriston's comment, and I think it's important to think about accessibility to other languages. I am only speaking from experience with latin-script languages. You can map diacritics and dead-keys for other latin-script languages pretty well on 40%, but I don't have any experience with non-latin-script languages. You may well not be able to go all the way down to 40%, but I have to imagine 60% is sufficient - you still only have 10 fingers, so there's a limit to how many keys you can quickly access.

    The real benifit is in the layers; instead of reaching out to the arrow keys or numpad or function-row or whatever else, it's just a thumb-tap away. You could do that on a standard layout, but it's difficult with the big spacebar in the way. That's the real problem.

    2 votes
    1. [5]
      ButteredToast
      Link Parent
      Iā€™ve been tempted to toy with splitting the spacebar into more keys, but what holds me back is how often I need to use keyboards integrated into laptops which sadly canā€™t be changed. I already get...

      Iā€™ve been tempted to toy with splitting the spacebar into more keys, but what holds me back is how often I need to use keyboards integrated into laptops which sadly canā€™t be changed. I already get a bit annoyed that I canā€™t carry over all of the relatively minor differences of HHKB/Tsangan layout over to laptops, I canā€™t imagine how frustrating that effect would be after getting accustomed to split spacebar.

      On that note, I wish Framework would do more with the keyboard modules for its laptops. They represent massive opportunity for flexibility that normally isnā€™t possible with laptops but have yet to do much with it.

      3 votes
      1. TangibleLight
        Link Parent
        On my laptop I just suffer, or I bring my 40 along with me. Added bonus for its size - it is more portable! I generally avoid typing on my laptop keyboard too much because the staggered layout is...

        On my laptop I just suffer, or I bring my 40 along with me. Added bonus for its size - it is more portable!

        I generally avoid typing on my laptop keyboard too much because the staggered layout is painful after a while. If Framework had a planck-style keyboard module, just a big grid of buttons, I'd sell my current laptop and buy it in a heartbeat. Bonus points if it's column-staggered or split.

        I'm certainly a faster typist on my 40, but I can use my laptop keyboard pretty well. The lack of numpad and the far-away arrow keys are inconvenient, sure, but I still know where they are and I use it often enough while traveling to keep practiced.

        I have experimented with using left-alt and right-alt on my laptop keyboard to select layers, but that gets in the way for professional software since they almost all assume you can easily do alt keyboard shortcuts, and it's more difficult to use diacritics without AltGr. Of course I can put those on a separate layer, or up in the [ ] \ - = area of the keyboard, but then the common shortcuts get very painful after a while. I always drop back to the default OS-provided Dvorak layout, and use it just often enough that I don't forget where things are.

        There are also compromises you can make in software, and using your pinky keys for layers. For example the three layout is a layered software-only option for the standardized keyboard layout that puts its layers on the right pinky. However I haven't attempted this because I don't want to re-learn the alphabetic keys. Some day I may get fed up and attempt it, or else modify Dvorak to use a similar approach... but probably not.

        1 vote
      2. [3]
        Eji1700
        Link Parent
        As another data point, personally I don't find switching back to normal keyboards all that hard. It annoys me that i'll be slower on certain things (numpad/[] keys mainly), but i'm still more than...

        As another data point, personally I don't find switching back to normal keyboards all that hard. It annoys me that i'll be slower on certain things (numpad/[] keys mainly), but i'm still more than fast enough and I have very little issue transitioning on the fly between whatever I need.

        I'm not sure how much that varies from person to person. I've known lots of people who swear they just can't use X controller or Y input device, but I do wonder how long they actually tried to stick with it. It took me about a day to get comfortable jumping back and forth, but that's it?

        That said, the reason why i've burned through so many split 40's is because I love how easy it is to carry one me (god i wish they were more durable) so I can just use them wherever.

        1 vote
        1. ButteredToast
          Link Parent
          I can switch pretty fluidly, particularly between controllers and pointing devices (for example, the difference between cursor acceleration curves across operating systems, which many are...

          I can switch pretty fluidly, particularly between controllers and pointing devices (for example, the difference between cursor acceleration curves across operating systems, which many are extremely sensitive to, barely exists for me), but keyboards can be frustrating because Iā€™m often typing with a somewhat time-sensitive purpose and so for example hitting the pipe key several times when Iā€™m intending to backspace can be very frustrating which can then create a mini-vicious-cycle because the frustration degrades my typing performance further.

          3 votes
        2. TangibleLight
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I made a non-split ergo keyboard for this reason; it has bluetooth, nearly silent switches, and built like a brick. Perfect for travel! My only regret is I didn't get low-profile switches... Well,...

          god i wish they were more durable

          I made a non-split ergo keyboard for this reason; it has bluetooth, nearly silent switches, and built like a brick. Perfect for travel! My only regret is I didn't get low-profile switches...

          Well, that would be my only regret, except that my buddy pointed out it literally looks like pants. I'm devastated, and will never recover. I thought about putting denim and bedazzled pockets on the back so it looks like jeans booty shorts, but never got around to it.

          Those corners in the "crotch" are also a little sharp... doesn't really matter when it's on a table, but in a bag it can be a problem.

          One thing I did learn on this design that I really like are the 1.5u "palm keys" on the bottom left and bottom right. They are not very good to hold, but they are great as leader keys for vim, diacritics, one-shot layers, etc. since you don't need to interrupt your typing motion to hit them.

          1 vote
    2. Eji1700
      Link Parent
      Thanks. I sorta expected this reaction as i've seen it before, and to be fair I do get it. I was resistant at first as well for similar reasons, but it's crazy how much I miss having those...

      Thanks. I sorta expected this reaction as i've seen it before, and to be fair I do get it. I was resistant at first as well for similar reasons, but it's crazy how much I miss having those keyboards when I don't.

      I'm currently back on a normal keyboard at work, and I still type more than fast enough because it's almost identical to my 40% on the base layer. But my coding is a little slower because of the location of the numpad and the ()/[] keys.

      1 vote
  26. public
    Link
    I am aboard the 60%-only train. I need the small board and a vertical mouse or else I get RSI at the bottom of my right shoulderblade. I use a Poker ][ I've owned for years and years with a...

    I am aboard the 60%-only train. I need the small board and a vertical mouse or else I get RSI at the bottom of my right shoulderblade. I use a Poker ][ I've owned for years and years with a separate numpad (currently on the far side of the rodent, but I can easily move it). I may switch it out for an F62 to enjoy buckling spring clicks, once I figure out how to edit the firmware to move the fn key around.

    1 vote
  27. tanglisha
    Link
    Anyone curious about this can check us they have a local mechanical keyboard club/group/meetup. Folks show up often with several keyboards of all different sizes and shapes, and theyā€™re usually...

    Anyone curious about this can check us they have a local mechanical keyboard club/group/meetup. Folks show up often with several keyboards of all different sizes and shapes, and theyā€™re usually happy to let you tap away on them. I donā€™t think thereā€™s such a thing as a universal keyboard thatā€™s great for everyone, weā€™re all shaped so differently. Whatā€™s perfect for me might be all wrong for you.

    1 vote
  28. ME4T
    Link
    Hard agree on swapping the CTRL and CAPS LOCK keys. It's the first thing I do on any workstation I have, regardless of OS (Linux, Windows, Chrome, etc). Without it, my muscle memory is lost. There...

    Hard agree on swapping the CTRL and CAPS LOCK keys. It's the first thing I do on any workstation I have, regardless of OS (Linux, Windows, Chrome, etc). Without it, my muscle memory is lost. There will be no productivity until those keys are swapped.

    1 vote
  29. [3]
    Toric
    Link
    very good writeup. Ive used a UHKv2 for several years now (65% split keyboard with trackball under the thumb), and I just last month built a ferris sweep for work and travel. I dont think I can...

    very good writeup. Ive used a UHKv2 for several years now (65% split keyboard with trackball under the thumb), and I just last month built a ferris sweep for work and travel. I dont think I can game on a 34 key keyboard, but im in love with this thing for typing/coding. Im actually thinking of replacing the UHKv2 for something of a similar size that is ortholinear, as well. The learning curve for a new configuration is not that bad as long as you stick to the same layout.

    1 vote
    1. [2]
      Eji1700
      Link Parent
      I've been looking at the sweep since it seems like the logical progression from the corne. How's yours holding up to travel?

      ferris sweep

      I've been looking at the sweep since it seems like the logical progression from the corne. How's yours holding up to travel?

      1. Toric
        Link Parent
        I printed a case out of TPU, holding up just fine so far. I got a tiny carying case made for storing a backup HDD, just throw that in my bag. I will say the case is needed, dont want the bare pcb...

        I printed a case out of TPU, holding up just fine so far. I got a tiny carying case made for storing a backup HDD, just throw that in my bag. I will say the case is needed, dont want the bare pcb on whatever surface your typing on.

        1 vote
  30. zod000
    Link
    Interesting write up! I personally don't feel comfortable typing on anything smaller than a 68% keyboard and prefer TKL the most, but your points were well presented. My daily drivers are a Model...

    Interesting write up! I personally don't feel comfortable typing on anything smaller than a 68% keyboard and prefer TKL the most, but your points were well presented. My daily drivers are a Model F77 reproduction and couple of custom TKL keyboards.

    1 vote
  31. pallas
    Link
    I think I would argue that the best keyboard arrangements are significantly dependent on individual factors, and may differ from person to person. I don't think it makes sense to argue that one's...

    I think I would argue that the best keyboard arrangements are significantly dependent on individual factors, and may differ from person to person. I don't think it makes sense to argue that one's own preferences are universally better for everyone, or that preferring something else is simply a matter of not having practised enough.

    I've tried small, heavily-layered keyboards, but find that I prefer keyboards with more dedicated keys. I've always played keyboard instruments, and typed extensively: by my age and peculiarities of my upbringing, I have had a computer with a keyboard since I was too young to remember. I am used to moving my fingers quickly and precisely over longer distances without needing to look at where I am typing. I am able to touch type numbers on a number row, and precisely hit individual function keys. Moving further away from the home row largely does not slow me down. I also primarily use Dvorak, which perhaps more stably positions my fingers around the home row such that it is easier for me to make departures from it more precisely.

    With that ability to precisely move around the keyboard, I find that having dedicated semi-frequently-used keys is faster and easier than chorded or switched layering and high-use multi-function keys. Chorded layering means that characters take up fingers on both hands, and restrict my off-hand from as easily preemptively moving to the next key. And while allowing less motion per hand, they require more complex motion, by both hands in coordination, for the same key. For layers that are likely to have multiple characters used in succession, they are even more restrictive, not allowing effective use of all of both hands. Switched layering adds additional keypresses and context-switching. A press/hold distinction on a key means that keypresses can only be registered on key-up, which means that some keys give different feedback than other keys, or all keys have significantly higher latency. I'm not even sure about number pads layouts: they cut down on the number of fingers I can simultaneously use to type numbers (with Dvorak, ',' and '.' are close to the number row), and switch the context of how the typing is done. And, of course, I do have layers for less-frequently-used characters, as do many international users: I have an AltGr for 3rd and 4th level chorded layers, and Compose for key sequences, in addition to switching to different layouts for different character sets.

    I'm not so sure about Space: I somewhat suspect that, were my use of it mapped out, having a wide spacebar allows me to more casually position my thumbs and slide them across the key as my fingers extend and contract. I do completely agree that Caps Lock is nonsensical for most users: I do switch mine to Left Control, and Left Control to Hyper.

    Yes, my fingers perhaps move more than they would on a more chorded, minimal keyboard, but I actually find continually holding them over the home row and making smaller, more repeated movements within layers to be more straining. But these are my preferences, that in part come from my wider practice moving my fingers longer distances, perhaps the shape of my hands and fingers, and possibly my use of Dvorak. I would not argue that they make sense for other people. Even for Caps Lock: many people use several computers that they might not have control over, and I know that when switching to a keyboard without the remapping, I will almost inevitably end up having trouble hitting Caps Lock a few times inadvertently.

    I'd note my preferences aren't a matter of lack of trying different arrangements: I've used everything from a full, PS/2 Model M to a 36-key, heavily layered GergoPlex, though admittedly the GergoPlex is all but unusable to me for a different matter of personal differences, in that even though my fingers are relatively light for pianos, the extremely low activation force that other people might find wonderful is actually horrible for me.

    There is a certain frustrating tendency toward a problematic universalism in keyboards (and also more generally within free software circles, where it seems even worse). It isn't always a matter of lack of practice, or lack of trying. There are real differences between people. And in terms of practice, there is the difficulty that practising an arrangement you prefer in turn makes that particular arrangement seem better for you, whereas someone who prefers, and practices, with a different arrangement will find theirs better. For that matter, something that requires extensive practice to perform the same function as something that requires less practice can itself be a disadvantage.

  32. [2]
    Noriston
    Link
    A lot of these do not apply to my non-english keyboard usage.

    A lot of these do not apply to my non-english keyboard usage.

    26 votes
    1. Eji1700
      Link Parent
      Sure. I can only comment on what Iā€™ve used, but at the same time moving numbers and control are two things I still recommend looking into. I do know that thereā€™s lots of non English keyboard users...

      Sure. I can only comment on what Iā€™ve used, but at the same time moving numbers and control are two things I still recommend looking into.

      I do know that thereā€™s lots of non English keyboard users in the community but of course I canā€™t give personal experience there.

      1 vote
  33. [2]
    NOD
    Link
    What are my options if I want a standard keyboard but with more buttons

    What are my options if I want a standard keyboard but with more buttons

    2 votes
    1. TangibleLight
      Link Parent
      To my knowledge you have to go DIY or vintage. Generally the big keyboards like this are called "battleships" so if you search mechanical keyboard forums for battleship keyboards you'll see some...

      To my knowledge you have to go DIY or vintage. Generally the big keyboards like this are called "battleships" so if you search mechanical keyboard forums for battleship keyboards you'll see some ideas.

      IBM used to make the M122, and Unicomp now sells that line as the PC 122. I know there are other large vintage keyboards but I'm not familiar with details.

      Hand-wiring a keyboard is not particularly difficult, but it does take some effort and you'll need to learn a bit about uploading a program to an arduino. You should be able to use qmk configurator to handle most (all?) of the actual programming. For example I found this 118 key handwired project.

      3 votes