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Using Barbie as a litmus test on feminism and patriarchy
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- Title
- Women in China are telling each other to bring their boyfriends to see 'Barbie' - and to use it as a litmus test for their thoughts on feminism and patriarchy
- Published
- Aug 4 2023
- Word count
- 331 words
I think it's a great idea. Even if a man doesn't like the Barbie movie, can he articulate why? Or does he jump right into sexist stereotypes and insults? I think it's a good litmus test.
Can I ask, why do we need this litmus test? I mean, why do we need to bring man to the movie instead of, I don't know, have a conversation with him?
Because people lie when asked directly about things they know are socially unacceptable to admit.
I dunno. It's easy to lie in an answer, it's hard to lie in a conversation.
So you use the movie as a conversation starter.
As a guy, I liked the movie overall. I felt it was a good response to the seemingly incelism manifesto Joker came to be. I'm still disappointed that it tried to do too much though and the mother daughter relationship seemed to be left undeveloped.
I guess I'm saying you can have problems with it even if you appreciate the critique on incelism.
But there nothing that prevents man from lying about Barbie?
But the type of guy who won't answer honestly about, say, his political views on women and women's rights, might be much more forthcoming about his negative opinion of the Barbie movie. It's not seen as something as serious or worth lying about so it can be a place where a manipulative guy like this goes mask off.
Make sense, thanks.
It's very socially acceptable to hate on a "girly" film like Barbie, which makes a person much less on guard against accidentally saying the quiet part out loud, as it were.
Pretty much this. No one will come out and directly say that they are a misogynistic douchebag. But they will say that the Barbie movie is woke feminist propaganda, which says almost the same thing.
I'm pretty sure the people who are saying Barbie is "woke feminist propaganda" are gonna be pretty open about having a conversation in which they share their negative feelings on other topics.
Using the movie as a litmus test makes more sense to catch dudes in the middle ground - ones who don't spout "fuck woke fuck liberal propaganda gobble gobble" and moreso the ones who would say things like "women had it great back in the day when they didn't have to work and had no worries yadda yadda".
That said... I haven't seen the movie yet (plan to!) but I don't think it's fair to write off a man (or anybody else) just for criticizing a movie. It's not as if it is necessarily without faults as a film and it's not as if its messaging is impossible to disagree with on some level(s) while simultaneously not being a douchebag.
Along with other people's points, Barbie gives a natural opening to talk about these topics. If you randomly ask someone their views, they might feel more compelled to lie since obviously it matters to whoever is asking.
With Barbie, you might not even need to ask them a question after finishing it. They can vent without prompting about how "stupid" Ken's arc was, or how it was exaggerating with that speech near the climax. They might even walk out mid-movie or accuse you of taking them to see "feminist propaganda".
It's a good way to get people to let down their guards and reveal their true colors, versus just straight-out asking them.
I haven't seen the movie yet, but hard agree. It's easy to tell how a man truly is deep down based on their reaction towards things like this.
This doesn't mean they aren't allowed to not like the movie as a film, but as long as they agree with the general narrative of it.
A bit off-topic, but I checked out the OP to see if I could practice my (very limited) Mandarin; the quote in question is
So it's not a poor translation on that part, since it literally just says 50%. What is an interesting translation however (my reading skills are terrible, if anyone is better or a native speaker I'd happily correct any mistakes) is that Insider opted for the relatively polite translation of "stingy, toxic chauvinists" when the OP translates more literally to something along the lines of "brainless, culture-less illiterates," in that wonderfully blunt way that Chinese people talk to each other sometimes.
It is understanding from a more empathetic mind, not understanding as a mental capacity. Lack of empathy and having a closed mind are imo fair points to criticize.
I don't see that. You left out the rest of the quote, which is...
Which implies that it is unusual if they don't have empathy or understanding.
(hetero man, hope I'm not intruding)
To some degree, I understand the idea. Like, when "Depression Barbie" appeared, I could understand the bit about lying on your phone all day, but nothing about Pride and Prejudice!
And more importantly, when Gloria was doing the rant about the experience of being a woman - I could emphatize with the core themes, but to truly understand them and what it means to experience it, as if I'd lived them? Of course not.
Rorschach test is more like it. My wife hates pink but she wanted to see Barbie, we went with our young adult son. It was the first movie I've been to in a theater since the pandemic. (For a long time thought of a popcorn and coke mess would turn my stomach!)
If anything Barbie debunks the notion of "the patriarchy" by making it a parody of itself. It is generally ambiguous, the mother/barbie fan's transformative message about feminism is a straight-up explanation of contradiction and ambiguity and in the end Barbie decides she'd rather be a real person than a doll.
I went to see this movie thinking it was a kids movie, aimed at a public like Super Mario Bros or something of the like. What I didn't like about the experience was that the theater was packed with kids and I worry the message of the movie will be lost to them. Maybe I'm underestimating what a kid will take away from the movie, but I think the satire will go over their heads and the most controversial takes of the movie will seem okay to them.
For adults it's a good movie, with great aesthetics and an eye-opening concept.
I think a lot of kids today have never heard of Barbie or think it is less cool than Bratz.
No, barbie is still extremely popular with kids. More so than Bratz, at least where I live (not America). My kids don’t know what Bratz are and I don’t think I’ve ever seen them in shops. There are similar dolls to Bratz but they aren’t super popular. Barbie is still everywhere, and there are a couple of shows on Netflix that are pretty popular still.
Bratz haven't been popular since I was in the target demographic, and I'm in my late 20s. You're definitely behind the times when it comes to trends in young girls' toys.
I love it!
I wonder, what other “litmus test” for relationships might women use that men would not?
Asking for their views on abortion. Looking at how they treat the women in their lives. Paying attention to how they treat and talk about women who are in positions of power or authority, particularly over them. Seeing if they have any female friends or acquaintances they legitimately enjoy talking to.
Granted, men can use these tests on women too. There are a lot of women out there who aren't feminists. If I wasn't married and had to find a partner, I would avoid socially conservative women in general. I've yet to meet a pro-life, anti-feminist woman who didn't also have a bunch of other abhorrent views.
It's crazy to me that these "tests" are necessary at all. I have read so many horror stories on r/twoxchromosomes where men hide behind "I'm not into politics" until they have the woman invested enough that they can slowly start to admit that they're hardcore conservatives.
It's so deceptive but as a man I can 100% see it happening. My whole life I have been surrounded by men who act significantly different around women than they do each other. How many times have you (fellow men) been around men who are boyfriends, husbands, or fathers, but have no problem saying filthy, degrading things about women and even expect you to join in? So often I've had to just fake laugh and nod until I could escape a conversation. I'll speak up when appropriate or when it's not going to cause a major issue, but usually it's just not worth it. Not going to tell my boss or my friend's father to watch their mouth.
Are they tests? Or are they just ways that you identify who you want to socialise or be entangled with? I know these are about some extremely serious topics, but these are no different than when you're learning about a new friend / acquantiance / partner and suddenly go "Oop, this isn't going to work with those views."
The questions you ask are benign about friendships and relationships really. "Hey man, how'd you feel about Barbie?"
<Grunting and anger>"Cool, got it" distances self
They're kind of the same thing, if you think about it. It's essentially just an indirect way of asking them questions while being less invasive, and it has the benefit of it being more "natural" because they aren't as likely to give you an answer that they think you want to hear.
a little of both - I think the relevant difference between them is whether it comes up naturally in the flow of conversation, or if you go out of your way to bring it up as a way of explicitly testing your compatibility with someone (especially in the context of dating, and especially in the context of online dating apps where you know relatively little about the other person, compared to say dating a friend-of-a-friend where your friend can vouch for them)
for example, I've talked with my friends and family about abortion and reproductive rights. it came up as a natural offshoot of discussing the news and current events.
and also, I (cis man) have been asked point-blank on a first date with a cis woman "do you support abortion rights". I don't remember the exact flow of the conversation up to that point but it seemed like she was mentally checking off a box on a first-date checklist for "make sure to ask about abortion rights".
I was happy to be "tested" in this way - I'm unequivocally pro-reproductive rights and pro-bodily autonomy, and prefer to date women who share those beliefs. when I was asked, the thought that went through my head was "oh, if I said I'm opposed to abortion rights she'd probably never want to see me again, and that's awesome"
I wonder if this is more an American thing that British?
I reckon the big questions for dating now are far more REAL for a lot of people. Kids, Marriage, Rights for people... These are all fair questions that we do need to figure out from people. I met my wife on the controversial subreddit of /r/childfree some six years ago, and we're happy as larry simply because that came with an almost un-needed conversation of "Abortion rights and zero kids, right?" to be discussed!
I was being a bit of a nerd with my previous comment to. It often feels like psychological terminology (or academic at least) gets banded into topics a lot these days. A la, 'testing' for these types of things. It makes sense, but it feels such an over the top word for 'finding out if people are dicks or not' do you know what I mean?
Think of them more as proxies than as tests. How to say you're part of the patriarchy without actually saying you're part of the patriarchy, as it were.
Kind of like the way asking people about their authoritarian political leanings is more accurately done by asking questions about child rearing.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247506135_Authoritarianism_and_child-rearing_practices
Totally. I know the usage of what they're for. We had an interesting moment in the pub last night around XR protests and we found out quickly who approved and disproved of striking and collective bargining. Leaves you with a better understanding, but also the backgrounds of many. Granted that's not 'life threatening' more 1st World stuff as opposed to Abortion / Feminism.
But very often I find that terms like "test" are used so nonchalantly in conversation and discussion these days. It leaves me feeling like so many people take conversations to be battlegrounds of give and take, rather than just a conversation to learn more about people. Makes me wonder if it's part of the problem between various groups? (Especially between very divergent thought groups) If conversation is the battleground, then how do we connect?
I grew up with my Irish family supporting all sorts of madness (Abortion, The IRA, etc...) so I 200% hear you mate. They're not the nicest of individuals to be around at all.
Too damn many. Its a serious problem and it's a tough nut to crack. You practically need a supermajority to shut it down, and good luck curating that IRL.
Frankly, I'm half tempted to expose the 'guys chat' to their wives, and make them answer for whom they are to the people they supposedly love.
O.o This makes me endlessly thankful for my group of guy friends. We just have a "good friends and family" discord rather than "guys" discord so everyone is involved. I remember one time a couple years back, I made a lazy husband and wife type joke (in person) which was frankly tasteless and wrong on my part, I got shut down immediately and sharply.
I don't even know why it came out my mouth, as I'm close friends with them both as individuals, but after nursing my pride for 2 minutes, I found myself incredibly proud of my buddy.
My brother and I were talking about this the other day. You're at a party and the women aren't around. Suddenly 3 guys are talking about "pussy" and describing their girlfriend or wife's sexual shortcomings in graphic detail. Or you're at the store and some random middle-aged man nods toward the cashier and says to you, "Woah, how'd you like to get in her pants?"
I know some women do it too. I know it's okay for men to talk about women, even sexually. I'll definitely comment to my best friend or even my wife if I find a girl attractive. But there is something about the tone of the conversations that some men have with each other that feels very odd and uncomfortable. My father-in-law (who has four daughters) will regularly say some vile stuff. And my friend's father commented on my wife once in a way that was incredibly off-putting. The worst part is they expect total acceptance from you since you're "one of the guys."
My wife is trans and i still struggle to grasp the shit she tells me she heard before she transitioned!
I was a mechanic, then went into IT, and i thought i understood toxic masculinity pretty well. My god, i was not prepared. The bizarre lines we've drawn around gender are rotting society from the inside, we have got to address it.
I wouldn't say that "men would not" and I've not used it personally but I came up with this: If they've watched the entirety of Breaking Bad, ask them what they think about Skyler White.
Ooh yeah this is a good one. Honestly getting their opinions on Walt himself are also good. I wouldn't want to date anyone who thinks he was a hero/in the right the whole time.
I'd like to hear more about this litmus test. The value judgements for liking/disliking.
Me and my wife stopped watching after like Season 3 when it initially aired, and have not bothered to return. The show just became "The increasingly poor decisions of Walter White," which was not fun to watch compared to the earlier "Smart guy making smart (if incorrect for the situation) decisions" character he started as. Some of it was obviously greed/power driven, but also some of it was like he was smoking the meth himself rather than just shifting motivations.
And we felt Skyler was exceedingly entitled and hypocritical as time went on, holding Walt to a standard she herself would not live up to.
Liking or disliking Skyler's character/agreeing with her choices at any point in the show is less the point and it's more the absolutely insane degree of hatred and misogyny some guys would spew about her character. It got fucking intense, far exceeding the normal reaction to a character one disagrees with in a show like this.
As for Walt himself, a lot of guys will parrot the same lies that Walt himself says during the show about how he's doing all this "for his family" when it's clear from the outset that he's doing it to shore up his own fragile masculine ego (shoutout to how great the pilot is at establishing this btw). I don't necessarily think everyone watching needs to be able to put it in those terms, but guys who defend Walt's actions like he's a hero using the same excuses he uses and refuse to recognize that he's doing things for extremely selfish reasons tend to be not great towards women. It's similar to guys who idolize Tyler Durden from fight club in the type of red flag it is.
I followed the show as it aired on social media intensely. This is exactly it. Skylar did some bad things in the story, but she's not even in the same galaxy compared to Walt's moral foibles. The text of the show makes it explicit in their final scene together (which serves as closure, rather than giving any new information you shouldn't already know about them).
I have not seen the show however:
https://blogs.libraries.indiana.edu/mediabeat/2014/10/27/why-i-wont-date-a-guy-who-hates-skyler-white/
She gets a lot of hate for not being fully on board with the drug dealing/cartel/murder/etc. Also she cheats on him, I guess? So like, the literal worst.
I wouldn't date a dude that hated on Brie Larson or hated on Captain Marvel. Doesn't have to be his favorite movie, but the reasons for hating her or the movie are what tell me what I need to know.
She's not even cheating! She's left him. She wants him out of the relationship and she's informed him of that fact in so uncertain terms. He refuses to leave the house and she is trying to force him out. That's not cheating. That's having sex with someone else after a breakup. She doesn't need his consent to break up, she can do it unilaterally. She takes him back later, but that doesn't retroactively make it cheating either.
I've seen it referred to as cheating so many times and I'm confused as to how anyone could even see it that way. He's basically holding her hostage at that point.
To be fair I hadn't seen it and was summarizing a meme!
But yeah you're not wrong that the perception of others falls into the category of "she cheated on him" despite it not sounding like it was in fact that.
Sorry, I didn't mean to direct that at you. I'd just seen the meme long before I saw the show, and i kept waiting for her to cheat and she never did.
All good!
Captain Marvel was a great superhero movie, and anyone ragging on it better have ammo to back up why they also hate the first Captain America and Thor movies, which were far worse IMO.
Great is subjective. It's perfectly enjoyable. Quibbles beyond the point range to the off topic
I mean, they can't all be Logan.
Right? Again, if Marvel wasn't his style or something, sure. (Though what will we even talk about?) It isn't even something I'd intentionally bring up as a test, but I have a number of subconscious tests I suppose.
I enjoyed Breaking Bad but, for me, it was similar to The Fall (another show I enjoyed) because the main character was the antagonist, not the protagonist. You watch hoping to see the main character fail, not succeed.
What was tricky about Breaking Bad, for me, was that while I watched it hoping for Walt to die, I badly didn't want to see Jesse die. It was almost like Walt was holding Jesse hostage, which added enormously to the thrill and suspense.
This extremely mirrors my experience of the show tbh.
This is a great one!!! But I'll admit to being someone who needed to see it twice to realize she was the good one and Walt was the bad one.
I watched first as a young adult, and I was expecting an anti-hero story where Walt was a good guy who was forced into doing bad things. I held on to that until pretty much the last two seasons somehow on my first watch through. I believed that deep down he was doing everything for his family. I spent several seasons thinking he would do the right thing soon.
By the end, I was obviously aware of who he was, but I couldn't remember enough about the earlier seasons to change my opinion of Skyler. She was also still bad in my mind.
I watched it again years later, knowing Walt was an irredeemable megalomaniac. I hate rewatching shows - so boring. But I loved rewatching Breaking Bad. It was like a brand new show and I saw everything so differently.
On that second watch through, it was clear as day to me the entire time that Skyler did nothing wrong. That woman was a saint. Even sleeping with Ted was more than justified, or at least understandable for a person in her position.
I think it's fair that someone might think they're both bad people on a first watch through. Even the show's creator has commented on how audiences rooted for Walt far longer than they should have, and how telling the story from Walt's POV kind of tainted Skyler in the minds of audiences.
Anyway, fantastic litmus test suggestion. This is my favorite.
A recent one I saw circulating from a viral Tiktok video was to ask men on dating apps about their most controversial opinion/belief. It's surprisingly effective at getting the most problematic ones to expose themselves, since they'll proudly announce their stances on issues like race, abortion, feminism, Covid, homophobia, etc. if given the opening to brag/debate about it.
Offtopic: what is the state of women's rights, and more broadly feminism, in China right now?
I vaguely have this notion in my head that Chinese communism focused very heavily on the mobilization of the working class and some feminist ideas came into play there, so there's maybe less of a sexist status quo to begin with / fall back on, but then also modern feminism does not seem to mesh well with an authoritarian government.
But that's just the impression I get, I'd be curious to know anything from anyone who actually knows something about the subject.
Also, it tickles me a little bit that the article suggests taking a partner to watch Barbie to divine their thoughts on feminism instead of, you know, asking them what they think about feminism.
Is that something people really do?
I mean sometimes people won't admit to it or get really defensive.
Which then seems to accomplish the purpose in and of itself...
A lot of men, especially men trying to get or maintain dates, will straight up lie about being feminists if you ask them outright. They understand that it's unattractive not to be one. Movies seem like a less loaded topic and they're more likely to be honest, or at least struggle to maintain the lie.
Watching a movie sometimes can be a mirror in itself, to help you reflect on what you're thinking by watching others (actors) go through the motions.
Plus it helps to have a medium (the movie) through which you can discuss concepts (eg. Feminism).
People lie when asked directly if they know their opinions won't get them laid.
The amount of men that proclaim themselves as feminists that also hold deeply misogynistic opinions...
This trend is in China, so I'd guess that it might be less socially acceptable there to ask about that in a forward way.
But also in the west "feminism" has meant different things to different people. Having concrete scenarios in a movie might be easier for some than laying out the tenants of what feminism means to them (although the latter doesn't sound like a bad conversation for later dates in a relationship).
I'm a male in a socially liberal city. I would not at all mind being asked directly what I think about feminism. But I probably would have to ask some clarifying questions which I'd hope wouldn't be taken for defensiveness or avoiding the question
I attributed it to different cultures and/or dating styles. Particularly in the very beginning of a relationship, I'm unlikely to ask direct, pointed questions about topics that I know are (generally) hot buttons. I'll instead try to discern things other ways, and going to a movie like this could provide a way to bring up a topic "organically".
A movie is an activity that a couple at any stage of their relationship might go do, so I viewed it more as a way to talk about a subject with someone that you haven't learned how/if you can talk to about controversial topics.
With someone I've been in a relationship for awhile with, I'm more likely to just ask a direct question even if I don't know what thier answer is likely to be.
I forgot who but another user once mentioned the difference between ask culture and guess culture and I think that's what's happening here rather than something to do with movies or feminism specifically.
It can provide a more natural opening to talk about feminism by talking about the movie itself. And people are more likely to rant about a movie than directly admit "No, I think feminism is overblown and women aren't as good as men". They can indirectly reveal a lot by ranting about things like Ken's whole arc and the speech at the climax.
In some cases you don't even need to ask their opinions afterwards. They might leave mid-movie, or get mad at you for dragging them to see it in the first place. Their reaction can be used as a wakeup call or to confirm suspicions in a "safer" way than asking outright.
I think the best test is asking how someone feels about the line at the very ending that’s something like “Maybe one day Kens in Barbieland will have as much power as women do in the Real World”, which was a pretty good tongue-in-cheek joke. As a guy that was the most hard-hitting line in the movie.
As for my favorite bit - that was when Ken was having an orgasmic reaction to seeing gyms, cars and handshakes. Got a solid belly laugh out of me!
I just came back from seeing it and the line that got me the most was when Ken was talking to the random business guy while looking for a job who says something like "Oh, patriarchy's working very well, we just hide it better now". It was just this understated moment but seemed to be the most direct, unembellished statement about the truth of our world. Almost everything is played up in some way, that was just... saying the quiet part out loud.
My favorite bit was the Ken dance fight, that was some absolutely fantastic choreography and Ryan Gosling had the perfect amount of energy and snap to his movements.
One thing I like about this movie even though it’s usually a bad thing is how hard it tries to get you to understand what it’s trying to say. One line that stuck out to me was how Barbie literally says “Ken is totally superfluous!” Right before arriving in
Barbie LandKendom.You get the feeling that Gerwig was considering the younger audience and really wanted to make sure that they could understand the messages she was sending.
I think this is clever. I think even more I like the idea of there being litmus tests, whether it's this movie or something else. And I also like that these women are sharing this with other women. It never occurred to me back when I was dating that there was anything besides direct questions and hoping I wasn't lied to.
Are these the only two options? Obviously there's a big cultural barrier that makes what "feminism" is to me vs people doing this, but where do those of us who understood the movie's themes and even enjoyed it for being very funny and aesthetically pleasing, but found most of the feminist underpinnings shallow, poorly constructed, transparently corporate approved, and incredibly white focused fall in? Asking for a friend, of course.
It seems pretty clear that you would be considered among those who "understand half of the movie's themes". It's not that hard to tell the difference between a man who hates on the movie based on misogyny and a man who has valid feminist critiques of the film's message. Women are generally able to pick up on that difference pretty easily.
I watched that movie and came out disappointed. I thought that instead of bringing the sexes together, it gave out more ammunition to be fired and, looking at OP's link, I was right.
That's an interesting take. I came out feeling the opposite; I felt like the movie showed the struggles of both men and women under sexist systems (patriarchies and matriarchies) and how both sexes can work on themselves and work together to bring out our best qualities.
What did you feel like "gave out more ammunition to be fired" in the movie?
One thing I saw some people worried about before the movie is that the Barbieland map of the "real world" contains what some people thought was the nine-dash-line extending from China. Does anybody know anything about the Chinese reaction to this apparent inclusion? Does China think it's the nine-dash-line?
The article is about ladies taking their boyfriends to see the movie.
If they still claim to have not seen it that would be a pretty big red flag. 😜
Personally speaking, if I were with someone and I told them that it would mean a lot for me if they went to see a movie with me and they steadfastly refused, that would also be a big red flag. That is a sign that they're not willing to compromise, or that they aren't willing to see things my way, or even that they weren't willing to consider my feelings and opinions. Those are not qualities of a healthy relationship, so dumping them might not be a bad idea. Everything depends on context, though.
I'm really curious how many couples did the whole Barbenheimer thing precisely because each was interested in the other movie. That sort of give and take sounds adorable (and who knows many people ended up liking both) and, well, a pretty easy way to display even just a molecule of effort on the relationship.
Yeah, like, I don't have any interest in seeing Oppenheimer but if my wife wanted to see it, I'd absolutely go. I think the only time I'd steadfastly refuse to see something would be if I knew it contained something I really couldn't handle or if I had moral qualms with supporting someone involved. And even then it'd be worth discussing and coming to a compromise if possible.
Of course not, that's a strawman argument. The hypothetical takes the fact that the boyfriend has seen the movie a given: the discussion of wether to go the movie is another discussion
Well, then we'd just be making a bunch of assumptions.
The article is about what to do after a woman has seen the movie with her boyfriend.
Maybe we'll see an article in a week or two "what to do if your boyfriend refuses to watch barbie like he refuses to watch spiderman?"
If your SO was super excited to see a movie, you'd refuse to go?