I need advice, which laptop would you buy now?
I would like to upgrade my aged 8 years old laptop and I'm completely undecided about which laptop to buy right now.
I considered Apple Intel laptops terrible, bad thermals, overpriced, unreliable, touch bar (uggg), I hated every second working on it, when the company I work for upgraded me with a M1, it was such a huge improvement from any laptop I have ever tried, absolutely no noise, incredibly performant and the longest battery life of any laptop by a lot.
I still don't like the Apple ecosystem, and I would prefer to use Linux as my main OS, but I can't find anything that comes even closer for the price of a Mac Air, If I go with Framework I'll get a less performant machine with a way worse battery, I honestly don't think the premium on repairability is worth for me when I don't have any issues repairing more challenging laptops, at the end repairability will be how easy is to get new parts.
ThinkPads have good reputation and repairability, but for what I see, the quality has gone down the drain in their latest models, and if I go with their premium models I get similar performance to Apple with worse battery, Dell has similar issues.
Gaming laptops are not an option, I don't do any PC gaming and the size and aesthetics are a dealbreaker for me.
The main issue seems to be that until ARM processors become better competitors to Apple, the battery life will be always the bottleneck, and I don't know how good the new Snapdragon X Elite compares right now.
Besides web development, photography edition and video editing (4k), I don't do many demanding tasks, I'm more than fine with the performance of a M1 as the baseline.
As an alternative, I'm thinking about getting a powerful desktop for the demanding tasks and a less powerful laptop with a good battery and screen, but ideally I would prefer a single machine.
Personally, I love macOS. It’s very far from perfect, and I am quite worried about the usability of the upcoming liquid glass design language, but it is far better than the dogshit that is windows. It’s even better than Linux in my opinion, although my Linux DE experience is a bit outdated. So I would buy whatever macOS laptop fit my requirements best.
If I wasn’t dead set on macOS, I would buy a framework. Just like you, I feel comfortable with more complex repairs, but Framework is the type of thing I want to exist in the world. I am willing to pay a pretty large premium just to support their business model. And that premium basically disappears as soon as you need to get parts for a more complex repair. Does Dell or Lenovo even sell a replacement display for the screen on whatever laptop you buy? For me, not having to worry about if I can get a replacement part is worth it, even if the repair itself is technically possible on the non-Framework laptop.
A few years ago I dropped my ThinkPad and broke one of the hinges. The laptop still worked and I could keep using it if I was very careful about opening and closing it, but obviously I wanted to get it fixed.
Unfortunately, Lenovo did not sell the specific part of the hinge that broke. Instead, I was going to have to buy an entire display assembly and replace the entire top half of the laptop if I wanted to do the repair myself.
Well, I didn't want to do that repair myself because it was a ton of work and a display assembly was like $300, so instead of buying that, I renewed the warranty on my laptop for $90 and waited 30 days to make a service call. A technician came to where I live, display assembly in hand, and did the repair at my kitchen table. We shot the shit about Linux and computers and generally nerded out the whole time. He was a cool dude.
But this is where Framework really shines, because if my laptop with a broken hinge had been a Framework 13 instead of a ThinkPad, I could have just bought a hinge for $24 and the repair job would have been much simpler.
I'm also a converted MacOS fan. I used to have the impression that it was more restricted compared to Windows in terms of my personal control over the device and I do not believe that is true any longer - although it's still arguably true when comparing iOS to Android. Still, their approach to privacy and the sharp decline of the quality of Google and Microsoft by comparison finally brought me over basically entirely. Among those three I think that Apple is just the company that I have the most trust in. It's not exceptional, it's just that the other two are worse.
It also helped that I frequently did development on Macbooks for work and got a free M1 laptop as a consolation prize for being laid off in 2023 (hooray). I just recently replaced my phone with an iPhone 16 because I am currently dead-set on completely de-Googling my life (nearly finished) and I enjoy how the phone and laptop function together even if I miss some features from my Samsung.
I would love to be able to do more with Linux and have experimented and worked on it in the past and it's just... not quite there for me yet. Ideologically I love it and I hope that SteamOS allows me to replace Windows completely very soon for gaming. I am so, so sick of Microsoft.
I'm somewhat the opposite: I don't love MacOS but the M1+ hardware is so good. I recently purchased a used M1 Air and it's honestly been nearly perfect. I'm not "in the Apple ecosystem" otherwise since I have an Android phone, and I still really like it.
My biggest complaint is Windows Explorer is far superior to Finder. I can't get used to Finder and it's been years. Why can't I create a new text file with a right-click??
It's just the quirks you are used to or not. I much prefer macOS finder, although there are some weird design choices. Explorer has plenty of weird design choices too; most people are just used to them. For example, if you right click and rename a file, it works fine. But if you click a file and click the rename option in the ribbon, that file type must have a configured default program, and must be able to be opened with that program. If it isn't, windows won't let you rename it from the ribbon until you configure the default app, and it can be opened with that app. Why does the right click menu run different code than the ribbon? Is there any sane reason to use different rename logic based on what rename button you clicked? Even if there is some good reason, why make the usability worse for people who use the ribbon?
There’s also the way Explorer goes out of its way to hide the real paths to certain destinations, which the Finder does little to none of despite Apple’s reputation of hiding things from the user.
Finder likes to hide the current directory’s path and my user directory which isn’t fun.
View > Show Path Bar fixes the first, and dragging your home directory into the sidebar (or enabling it in Finder > Settings > Sidebar) fixes the latter. I run relatively vanilla but those are among the first things I change on a fresh install.
Once those are enabled you see the true paths of almost everything. Windows likes to pretend that your desktop is the top level that your home folder is the child of which is weird.
I'm kind of confused, I don't see this issue. I've never seen windows even care what program you're using to open a file when renaming it. Just now change the extension of a file to test and it just went straight to renaming the same as when you right click first. There some way to replicate the issue?
I’m not sure. I avoid Windows like the plague now, and I use the right click menu most of the time for rename. I think I remember it happening most often with pdf files. Maybe try installing a new web browser, or delete the default file association with pdf, and try to rename a pdf file? I may try and replicate it at work today.
I found a way to replicate the issue reliably in Windows 10, since that is what my work laptop is running. Install a new browser (doesn't matter what browser) (if you have all the common ones installed already, you can go with a chrome dev or beta version). I think you have to let it launch, but most browser installers launch automatically anyway. Then go into explorer and find a pdf file, and rename it from the ribbon. It will pop up the "open with" dialog. If you select anything, it will actually just open the file in whatever program you selected. You don't even get the option to rename it. If you cancel out of the dialog, it will pop up again if you try to rename another pdf file from the ribbon. This weird status even survives a reboot.
TL;DR: If you install a new handler for a certain file type, the "Rename" ribbon button effectively turns into an open button until you actually open that file type and select a default program.
I am sure there is some way to explain why this bug exists, but I don't understand how this is possible. Should a rename button care about the default file handler? Never. How is there anything in the Rename codepath that can intercept a user input to provide a wildly different behavior? This is the type of thing that I didn't care about when I primarily used Windows, but now that I don't run windows, I don't understand how I ever thought it was okay.
It goes to show that the best file manager has always been mc.
(I'm not sure how much of a joke that was.)
Actually, the best file manager might be Haiku's, and by extension BeOS, but it's not because of any special features it has - it's actually quite minimal - but because of how the features of the operating system make it a lot nicer to deal with. Tabbed windows are better than tabs in windows, for sure.
I don't think that is possible on Windows 11 in explorer either. With the destruction of any actual utility notepad had it is another crippling of basic utility of the os.
The liquid glass design, at least on the current macOS developer beta, isn't as in-your-face as it is on the phone from what I've experienced so far. The only places I've really noticed it is the control center and the volume/brightness control pop-ups.
Personally I'd go with a framework 13 if I needed a laptop. They directly support Linux which is big for me, and I support what the company is doing.
My last laptop I went with a System76, which was a big mistake. The Pang12 is a terrible laptop.
I do have a m1 MacBook Pro running Fedora that's my daily driver right now, and it runs nearly perfectly. Battery isn't as great and suspend doesn't work, but everything else is perfect.
Could you expand more on why System76 was a big mistake? Genuinely curious!
I had one. Generally pretty cheap hardware with a high markup. Battery life was terrible. Build quality disappointing.
Pang12 was just a terrible laptop, it's a rebranded Emdoor machine. Major issues include: the touchpad goes crazy randomly (did one RMA when I got the computer, my second one still does it. Did eventually realize it's because the case flexes too much and the touchpad gets stuck, so you have to bend the computer to fix it), USB C port will just stop working (both machines I've had), display will get glitchy occasionally (both machines, distro doesn't matter), cover on the Ethernet port is poorly made and snapped off, the webcam is unusable garbage quality and the screen doesn't get very bright. On the plus side the keyboard is very nice, the performance is great and battery life is good for Linux. But the cons definitely outweigh the pros.
Do you run fedora on the m1 directly? How is it in real life? Or is it in a virtual machine?
Yep, I use the Asahi Fedora remix, works very well! System is fast, most things work out of the box, installation process is pretty easy. Only things that are annoying are the suspend being broken means I have to make sure to power of the system or it cooks itself on my backpack, display over USB C doesn't work (but HDMI does so doesn't bother me) and the screen doesn't use the very top part with the notch, so you lose a tiny bit of screen real estate.
How’s GPU performance?
I can watch YouTube videos in HD and process photos with Darktable+GIMP. I don't really do anything GPU intensive outside of that.
AAA gaming on Asahi Linux (blog post from late last year).
I’m genuinely amazed time and time again about what a bunch of way underpaid (for their skillset and level), essentially volunteers can accomplish out of sheer motivation for the cause.
I know you mentioned not wanting to have multiple machines, but am a big fan of a MacBook Air to take around with you. Setting up another computer running Linux as a server at home that you can SSH into for coding is just so nice. You can use the nice MacOS interface, but have access to a full x86 Linux machine whenever you want. You don’t crowd your laptop with a bunch of different packages and you can upgrade your Linux machine with more RAM, storage, or compute as needed.
If you like MacBooks but want to run Linux, why not buy a MacBook and install Linux on it? Asahi is designed specifically for them.
Reading the Asahi wiki looks like a beta, many of the functionality is not there yet, and I would like a stable system.
I’m not 100% but I believe you can run darwin + kde and get a pretty linux like experience; probably dual booting with macos.
Really not worth it imo. The entire selling point of Apple products, and the reason they're so much more expensive than alternatives is the vertical Integration between the hardware and OS. If you're not doing that, then why even bother with an Apple laptop?
I don't really like OSX, but if I were to buy an apple product, it would be because I knew the OS was specifically designed for the hardware. If you mess around with it and put another OS on it, what's the point?
Well, Darwin is specifically made for mac, and if you’re preferring a unix like experience, it’s an option.
Last I saw it only supported up to M2 and even then some of the hardware has no support at all. It’s a curiosity more than an operating system.
Apple have really been in a league of their own when it comes to laptops ever since the M-series chips were launched. The biggest compromise is just repairability. Refurbished and used M1 and M2 series Macbook Pros can be had for a great price. Their battery life, speakers, trackpad are unmatched.
I wouldn't be too worried about the usability of the new macOS update either. I've been running the developer beta since it came out and the liquid glass design is fairly restrained. Some of the UI elements do need some tweaking but they've got all summer to massage things.
I was going to try to convince you to find an off-lease businessbook with an RTX5000, which are somehow less than the cheapest desktop NVIDIA card, but then I saw you said size & aesthetics are a consideration lol.
In that case, yeah the M-series macbooks are unbeatable—even the M1 is still pretty quick, no moving parts, battery lasts all day, etc etc. I wouldn't be afraid of getting a refurb model either.
Just leaving a comment that I've been really pleased with a second hand M1 for about a year now. Zero complaints!
Not too long ago I was doing some similar shopping and came to the same conclusion. Worth noting that I’m biased towards Macs, but I really do like to keep a Linux machine around, but unfortunately there’s just no Linux-friendly x86 laptop out there that doesn’t require shockingly large tradeoffs across multiple categories — battery life, heat/noise, display and KB/trackpad quality, sleep/standby, chassis rigidity, etc.
While I’m happy to have a great laptop (M4 MBA), it’s almost upsetting that there’s practically no other company that seems to know how to manufacture laptops that don’t suck in one way or another.
I almost bought one of those new AMD Framework 13’s but backed out when reading about its issues with chassis flex and battery life. There are probably many people who’d vehemently disagree with me, but I would personally be happy to buy a FW13 variant that trades off the modular ports and uses more expensive CAMM or even soldered LPDDR RAM to make it more solid and not burn through battery so quickly.
For what it's worth, I have not experienced any kind of flex with my 13" Framework laptop (purchased at the end of 2024), and my partner has not experienced any with his, either. I am very happy with the build quality.
I've read that flexing can be a problem with the larger 16" laptop due to the swappable keyboard components, but the smaller 13" does not have that.
The flexing might not be dramatic but it’s reportedly there, depending on how it’s held. I’ve seen many reports along these lines: https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/sq8yrw/chassis_flex_causing_trackpadtouchpad_to_click_on/
Glad that yours is working well for you though.
I guess I'm disappointed at the market where the competition is not able to match Apple laptops even 5 years after the release of the M1
That's exactly my feel about the framework, the expansion ports feel gimmicky, I prefer to use a small dock instead and have all that space for extra batteries or better internals, as long as the laptop included 2 USB-C that can be replaced as a single board like they do with the audio board, it should be enough for repairability.
It really doesn’t seem like it should be that difficult, does it? Especially for the matching the Pro models which are actually pretty thick by industry standards which should make building something decent relatively easy.
On the Framework, given that it’s positioned more in line with the 14” MBP than it is the 13” Air, I’d like to see it have at least 3x TB/USB-C ports, along with a headphone jack, HDMI port, and SD card slot, but either way it’d improve the chassis significantly while still being repairable.
I had a Framework 16, had stability problems with it, and eventually switched to a Thinkpad L16. It's pretty good. In practice, it has the same sort of repair support as the Framework; they just make less noise about it.
I'm still hoping Apple's success with the M* chips eventually annoys other vendors into making similarly impressive hardware. It seems to be amazing hardware from what I can tell; the software is just aggressively incompatible with me, and last time I looked into it I wasn't sufficiently convinced running Linux on it would be as painless as I'd like.
The problem with Lenovo is how quickly they stop selling parts. They haven’t sold batteries for my circa 2021 X-series ThinkPad for at least a couple years now, which is unfortunate with how the batteries of many of that model are now hitting or dipping below the 80% capacity mark.
Do you mean from Lenovo direct? Just curious, as I have had no trouble buying parts for my various ThinkPads over the years and recently purchased a new battery for my P1 Gen 4.
The stuff hasn't come from Lenovo itself, but that also hasn't been an issue either.
Lenovo direct, as that’s the only place I know parts are genuine OEM. Places like eBay are full of counterfeits. That’s not as important for some components, but is critical for others — third party batteries are universally terrible for example, usually having lower capacity than the degraded OEM battery they’re replacing.
This hasn’t been my experience. You can buy good third party batteries on ebay from known brands like Greencell.
+1 and iFixit sells some.
I would buy the latest greatest Framework 13 for what you want, something that isn't gaming, but beefy. It comes with a Ryzen 7040, unless you want the absolute latest AI 300 series. The barebones kit is $899, and you would just need that plus RAM and storage. You can get it with them, or source the same exact parts elsewhere for roughly half the price Framework charges (but, the overhead supports Framework!). Get a linux distro of your choice or Windows 11 (I'm partial to Aurora, who provide images that work fully on Frameworks) and that's a fully-fledged computer.
What has your experience with Aurora/other immutable distros been like? The only use cases I can imagine are for a container-only host environment or as a grandma-friendly setup that exclusively runs Flatpak applications. The inability to
dnf install packagenameis a pretty big dealbreaker for me, and most other Linux users I would imagine.It's great for a "install for grandma" situation but also very good if you just don't want to worry about updating your OS between releases. It updates automatically, but you can roll back the image if needed fairly trivially, then roll back forward once you're ready as well. I had to do this when Linux had a bug for my graphics driver. I tracked Fedora then my image to verify the fix landed then rolled back to daily updates.
For package management you can layer with rpm-ostree, or more convently for updates use bluebuild, Universal Blue's image creation system, to make a GitHub repo to customize your image, then rebase to it and keep updates. I've been running my customized Aurora image for about fifteen of the last seventeen months.
The Universal Blue team designs for the following flow which I find works well:
Flatpak for GUI apps > brew for CLI apps, Distrobox ifnit's not available for the last two > system image customization if it needs to be a system packages. I actually use all these options for various things and it's quite simple.
It comes with Flatpaks for a bunch of apps including Firefox, and I frankly like it that way. Most apps I use are Flatpaks except for my music environment (Renoise, SuperCollider, Bitwig in an Arch distrobox), Mega (can get their packages in my image), and random sandboxes Increase for various reasons.
Thebupstream Fedora Atomic images expect you to directly layer with rpm-ostree by default, which is also still a pretty good experience.
Just a quick tip, macOS has many little things hidden in the corners for power users that GNOME and Unity didn’t, and so it can be worthwhile to hunt them all down.
For example, since all apps use the system menubar instead of custom implementations or hamburger menus, the macOS has the capability to allow the user to reassign key shortcuts for any menu item in any app’s menubar. Even items that never had a shortcut can have one added. Just open System Settings → Keyboard → Keyboard Shortcuts → App Shortcuts and add the target app and desired shortcuts.
Another is that in most native Mac apps, the Option/Alt key when modifying a click means “do this to all items”, so for instance option-clicking the yellow traffic light of a window minimizes all windows from that same app and option-clicking the arrow on an item in a hierarchal list (like list view in the Finder) will expand/collapse that item along with all of its children.
I use that second one a lot and quickly miss it on other platforms and when using cross-platform apps that didn’t bother to implement that convention.
If you are just using a MacBook Air or MacBook Pro you don't really have to "participate" in the Apple ecosystem. I wouldn't be turned off by that if the ecosystem is an issue. Pretty much anything you can install in Linux you can install in macOS.
I'm not so convinced by this. I have a MacBook at work, and while it's a fantastic machine, the software is really shoddy (it feels at least as buggy as my Linux machine, if not more so) and very bound to the Apple ecosystem. For example, pressing the "play" button on my keyboard by default opens Apple Music, even if another music app like Spotify is open. To get it to work properly I need to start playing something manually in Spotify, and then it'll work as expected. I also have Apple TV (also incredibly buggy), and because I once logged into the same Apple account on my Android phone and my MacBook, now whenever Apple TV wants to send me a 2fa test, I have to use the laptop - even though I would much rather use the authenticator app on my phone that I can use for everything else.
You can install a lot of stuff for MacOS, although there are always still a handful of oddities. But you're always still at the mercy of the operating system, which means customisation is pretty limited. For example, MacOS has a unique approach to window management that mostly assumes that you've got a single big monitor and you'll mostly switch between windows with a mouse. There are ways around this, but they mostly involve installing additional tools that try and manage windows for you by manually manipulating MacOS's accessibility systems. This typically ends up - again - being very buggy, as well as painful to customise.
There are some things I like about Macs - the hardware especially, but also some software decisions - but you mostly need to accept that if you're buying a MacBook, you're going to do everything the Apple way, or you're going to struggle.
The play button thing is definitely an issue, but I’ve had little trouble out of my Apple TV that isn’t due to shoddy third party apps.
As for window management, I’ve been running multi-monitor with a Mac for over a decade and have never had trouble. In fact, it’s Windows that makes me want to tear my hair out in this area. I think it’s specific types of multi-monitor workflows that it doesn’t accommodate for rather than not being conducive to multi-monitor at all.
That's true - if you treat your multiple monitors as a single connected workspace it's (mostly) fine. But that's not how I want my monitors to behave! And I want to be and to manipulate my monitors mostly with my keyboard and not with my mouse. This is the sort of stuff that can get fixed with extra apps, except those apps are then also buggy and limited by what the OS lets them do.
I use Apple TV mainly on my laptop, and it's constantly breaking. It often reloads the page as I'm scrolling, it occasionally redirects me to the wrong region, I had a day where it would play the opening credits of a show and then nothing else after that, no matter what I tried to do. This is aside from more minor but entirely unnecessary inconveniences like not being able to cast shows to my TV or the aforementioned 2FA issues that aren't really bugs but are still pretty bad.
I wonder if it's a browser issue - with some of the above bugs, switching from Firefox to Chrome has helped, although not necessarily always fixed the problem. But still, this is Apple right? Surely they can afford a bit of QA?
I use my monitors as separate workspaces. I don’t move windows to and from super frequently though, maybe that’s the difference? Instead, “main” apps (IDEs, editors, etc) stay on my main monitor for the most part and “secondary” apps (chats, music, email, etc) stay on the secondary monitor. Both have several virtual desktops and that I switch between, so for instance on the main screen I might have an “iOS” workspace and “Android” workspace and the secondary monitor might have “chat” and “documentation” workspaces. I switch workspaces with keyboard or trackpad depending on the situation.
Didn’t realize you were talking about the Apple TV service, thought you meant the streaming TV box. I don’t know how well the web app works, I always use that through an official app.
I think your comments on window management may not be accurate still. You can maximize, full screen, snap, quarters, and half windows now. Unless I misunderstand the comments. As long as you don’t full screen it seems to behave just like Windows.
I can’t say I share the bugginess you encounter (besides Apple TV) but I can believe it.
They are definitely still accurate. Most of these features work really weirdly compared to other desktops (full screen transposes an app into its own workspace, snapping is intolerably insensitive, halving windows results in a bunch of extra unnecessary border space, etc). And then native Apple apps tend not to play properly with these features anyway.
But also: this is bare minimum stuff here. What you're describing has been standard on other systems for years. Where are the innovations? On Linux, I can get my windows to tile, and jump around then entirely with the keyboard. On Windows, if I snap a window to the side, I can immediately pick which other window I want on the other side of the screen. Whereas on MacOS, I can't even get alt-tab to work sensibly without installing an additional tool.
I genuinely do not understand how MacOS power users can use it, unless there's a magic workfkow that I've just never found.
Some of these things (like alt-tab behavior) are more platform convention than anything, and as such adopting them means throwing out existing conventions and upsetting longtime users. Many of the conventions seen in modern macOS date back through the 90s and the mid-80s.
Power users on macOS are accustomed to its conventions and work with them, similar to how their Windows counterparts do. When I try to use Windows (and to a lesser degree, Linux) for work I feel frustrations with it much as you do with macOS.
Gaps around tiled windows can be disabled with System Settings → Desktop & Dock → Tiled windows have margins. I like the margins personally because it’s nice to see a bit of my desktop peeking through.
I'm not convinced that Mac power users rely on and like some of the core windowing behavior. There's two main pain points with the way macOS handles windowing that could be tweaked while maintaining the "application spawns windows" philosophy. I've never seen a Mac user actually rely on the following behavior. They may put up with it, but I don't think they derive value out of it.
cmd+tab cycles between applications, but it also keeps track of Most Recently Used and quick taps in alternate between them. You can tap cmd+tab repeatedly and only ever see two applications. However, cmd+tilde cycles through all windows in order A to B to C to A. What user remembers which window is next in the cycle when there's more than 3 windows? It's chaotic. There's no predictability to it the way that cmd+tab has. It's also just plain inconsistent behavior.
Finder is an un-killable application that always stays in the cmd+tab interface. If you accidentally land on Finder with no windows, you don't even know you've landed on Finder unless you remember to glance at the top left to see in the menu bar that it's now Finder. This is just plain stupid. I understand that Finder backs a lot of macOS besides just a file browser, but for the love of god, figure out a better UX here, Apple.
If they fix the above two issues, that fixes my two biggest gripes as a keyboard-oriented desktop user. But I started remember other bad behavior on macOS if you care to read on.
If I accidentally minimize a window (cmd+m), I'm frankly never going to be able to remember how to bring that minimized window back via keyboard. I had to look it up and remind myself while typing this and I'll bet I'm not alone here. I just click it.
cmd+h "hides" a window, but sometimes windows don't hide! But if you cmd+tab to another application then back again, cmd+h now works.. most of the time. Sometimes it still doesn't. Has happened to me on every version of macOS I've used since I started using macOS more in 2016. This is a clearly a longstanding bug rather than a feature.
P.S. Typed from my Mac Mini.
EDIT: I just enabled Stage Manager about 5 minutes after typing out ^ because it reminded me that it existed. And sending an article link to a Shortcut I wrote that opens up an archive.is link ended up causing my desktop to switch to Desktop 2 which had another Safari window in it. But I was already on a Safari window in Desktop 1 while I was doing this.
This behavior is inherited from how running applications work on macOS. On Windows, if a program is running, it has to have an open or minimized window, or live in the system tray. Programs are tied to the windows that they own. On macOS, this is not true. A program can be running with absolutely no windows. Some programs will stop running if you close all their windows, matching the Windows behavior, but many will happily keep running if you close their windows. You can open Mail.app, hit cmd-w to close the window, and see for yourself that it is still running. And if you cmd-tab away and back to it, it will happily be the foreground app with no windows. This behavior dates back to the original preview version of NeXTStep from 1988. I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that not a single macOS user in almost 4 decades has gotten used to this behavior. For what you describe, the only thing Finder does differently than any other app is that it isn't killable. Which, yeah, is kinda important. You can technically kill explorer.exe, but the computer isn't really usable unless you relaunch it.
If you want to learn about how a macOS power user uses the window management features of macOS, check out The Windows of Siracusa County from ATP. It is an absolutely fantastic podcast episode. John Siracusa has been using Apple computers since the classic Macintosh.
Right, I am aware of the application-window paradigm. But just because there's a historic explanation for how something works doesn't mean that it's a good reason to continue that behavior. I noted Finder, not Mail. With Mail, since there's a way to quit it, leaving the application with no windows is a user-choice. Since Finder is not quittable, this outlier is annoying to mentally track when using cmd-tab.
Furthermore, just because Finder is in control of other desktop behavior doesn't mean that the UI needs to show it. Let a user cmd-q it and then just remove it from the cmd-tab list. Other applications like Little Snitch work around this. Apple can move the file browser to a separate process. It's been decades! Someone could refactor the file browser out.
I'm not saying not a single user has worked around this in four decades. I'm saying I've never seen a Mac user in the wild that relies on this. If you made the change I suggest, the worst case is that the Mac power user uses Spotlight to launch a Finder window when none exists, the same as they would do for most other applications. This would be an improvement for them as it brings Finder in line with other applications, leading to better muscle memory. And it would clean up the cmd-tab list.
FWIW, you can enable the Quit menu item in the Finder’s main menu by tweaking a hidden setting. The only part of the system that’s tied to the Finder is the desktop, and so I use this primarily to hide desktop icons on command. I’ve never been bothered by the Finder’s presence in the command-tab switcher, though.
As for why it isn’t possible to quit the Finder by default, that’s probably because non-technical users would find it confusing.
defaults write com.apple.finder CreateDesktop falsein Terminal.app or iTerm2 for the folks who never want desktop icons.I think probably Command-Tilde was designed under the assumption that the user won’t have too many windows open under any particular application. I think generally I top out at 3 or 4 per app, with apps with potential for heavy windowing having become tab-heavy instead (browser comes to mind here, I’m big on vertical tabs). It probably wouldn’t be a bad thing to add an alternative behavior that could be toggled on in settings though.
I’ve never had issues noticing which app is foregrounded, maybe depends on monitor? With 27” displays at normal usage distance the whole menubar is well within FoV. I could see it losing issues with ultrawides and large-TVs-as-monitors though.
Never ran into the hide bug either. Hide hides the whole app, not a single window, and I use it pretty regularly. Can’t remember the last time it didn’t do that.
Cmd+` and Cmd+tab behavior are useful for me. I regularly close all windows of a program but not quit the program, e.g. Firefox, so I tab to the program and Cmd+N a new window.
Unless Finder was the last used application, it wouldn’t be an issue in a quick Cmd+tab alternate between two programs situation. And if it’s a slower, hold Cmd+tab to another program situation, there’s a visual indicator of which program you’re selecting in the middle of the screen?
Not sure I’ve ever inadvertently tabbed to Finder, but I guess it’s possible?
If I do happen to have so many windows of a program open, 4+ probably, I tend to default to a three finger down swipe for app expose and select it, but there’s always ctrl+down as a keyboard shortcut that can be enabled in settings to open app expose. Ctrl+` cycles app expose through running programs. The arrow keys can be used to navigate to the window you want to open in app expose too, so you can open app expose and select a window with just the keyboard.
TL;DR: Enable the app expose keyboard shortcut. If you’ve got more than a few windows open, use ctrl+down to open app expose and then use the arrow keys to select a window?
Yeah, thinking about it I do tend to reach for exposé when there’s more than a few windows open. I find it pretty effective.
I'm one of those users. I ditched Windows fully in 2008, and I had previously spent years appreciating the Mac way of doing things. I dislike how much the post-Jobs Apple has already eroded classic Mac UI patterns.
Windows should always represent documents, and applications should never close when the last window is closed. Full screen windows are usually an antipattern. All actions should live in the (searchable) global menu bar and not idiotic hamburger menus attached to the window. Minimize shouldn't even exist. You might hide windows or put them on separate Spaces, but the true Mac way is to just let them fall wherever they do and use Expose or Cmd+Tab.
This exactly my window “management” style: I don’t manage them hardly at all. There’s the odd occasion where it’s useful to snap a couple windows side by side, and I like to keep separate spaces for different uses, but that’s the extent of it.
The Windows style of making sure windows are tiled or maximized and the tiling Linux style where I’m swapping tiles out and adjusting layout frequently by comparison feels micromanage-y and somewhat laborious.
I’m a big fan of the global menubar too. I wish I could get one consistently working under Linux (KDE has one you can turn on, but lots of apps don’t populate it).
I run Windows, Mac, and Linux at home. Out of the three the Windows machine is the most reliable but also feels like the least secure, least private, and most irritating to work in. My Linux installs will break randomly after an update, and software installs are awkward at best. Mac hits the sweet spot between the two for me. It works. It isn’t privacy hostile. Using homebrew and containers software development is very easy.
I agree that windowing is a weak spot, but I’ll overlook that in exchange for my printer working consistently, my audio not randomly breaking, or Microsoft harvesting a mountain of data from me.
If macOS had a better story around gaming I wouldn’t even use Windows. I’ve also shifted most of my Linux usage to just be containers hosted on a Mac mini - zero issues.
I've genuinely had more issues recently connecting to a printer on a Mac than on Linux, so either I've managed to get a really good Linux setup, or a really bad Mac setup! I've also only had occasional Bluetooth audio issues - my Mac is definitely better here, but my Linux laptop feels approximately on par with my Android smartphone for how often it runs into issues.
Linux gaming is meant to be pretty good at this point. My laptop isn't great for most games, but every game I've tried has worked mostly correctly using Steam/Proton.
I don't think I've ever had something break after an update on Linux, but I usually delay my updates for a while because I'm lazy, so maybe it's a case of waiting until all the bugs are sorted first. I also try not to be on the bleeding edge of anything to avoid problems there. Plus I really like that I can update my system whenever I like, without restarting it. My Mac struggles with this idea - at least on Windows there's the "install updates and shut down" option, as opposed to my Mac which can't fathom why my laptop isn't on at 3am so it can install updates on its own schedule.
Like, I get why Linux isn't for everyone, and I wouldn't suggest it to non-technical friends or family because it's just got that bit much extra friction to get a good setup going. But if you're already using your computer a lot and you're already comfortable poking around with it, I just don't see the benefit at all.
I'm genuinely surprised that you've had more problems connecting to printers from macs than with Linux. Apple literally owns CUPS. But I guess that's just the way the world works.
I actually really like how Apple rolls all of their updates into one big package because it lets me choose when to do it, but on some of their devices the update methods that are supposed to be seamless are anything but. My Apple Watch, for instance, is my sleep tracker, so I need to have it on while I sleep. But for some reason automatic updates will only happen at night when it's on the charger, not on my wrist to track my vitals. It's not smart enough to automatically start updating when I take it off in the morning to charge it.
At least in my office, my Mac struggles to properly recognise the office printer and shows multiple "copies" of it in the print dialog, only one of which works. The previous printer could only connect to Mac computers immediately after it was restarted - if a Windows machine tried to connect first, then any Macs that connected afterwards would be unable to print.
In fairness, I've not tried either of those printers out with a Linux machine, but at least my home printer has never really had issues connecting to my home Linux laptop.
For me Linux is nice in theory, but save for GNOME (which is iPad-ish) its desktop environments are all pretty heavy on the Windows-style UI conventions which is uncomfy for me, and while I enjoy tinkering I don’t enjoy having to do it to keep things running properly or coaxing things into working the way I’d like them to. I spend most of my day fighting code which saps a lot of that energy.
Like I said, I don't need to do any work maintaining things other than irregular updates, which is just running one command in the terminal and that's it. I also didn't spend a lot of time coaxing the system into doing what I wanted either. If I want a development environment on my machine as well, things get a bit more idiosyncratic, but it's the same tools that I need to install and configure on Mac and on Linux, so Mac doesn't win there at all. Apart from that, I use Pop_OS! and it's basically already configured how I want it, apart from a handful of minor tweaks.
In another comment you mentioned that MacOS just has different conventions, so maybe I need to get used to those, but it's been two years now if using an MBP as my full-time development machine and I'm struggling to understand so many of these conventions. For example, when I run into a git conflict, I run a command that opens up a new window of VSCode in its conflict-resolving mode. For some reason, this brings every open instance of VSCode back to the foreground, meaning when I resolve the conflict and close the window, I need to manually navigate back to the terminal where I was. Why? In what world does that make sense? Surely if I'm focused somewhere, I open a new window, and immediately close that window, I should end up exactly where I was to start with?
What you’re seeing in the latter paragraph is how the Mac process model works.
Under Windows and Linux, generally speaking each window is its own discrete process/instance. Under macOS, windows are nearly always children of a single process/instance. It’s been that way since the original Mac.
If I’m not mistaken there are ways to bring forward just a single window, but the git conflict resolver isn’t doing that. Instead it’s trying to open VS Code without requesting a specific window, and macOS sees VS Code is already open so it foregrounds it (and all its windows).
It’s actually possible to open multiple instances of a single app, but most apps won’t function correctly if you do and will do things like open a duplicate set of windows because they expect to be a single process instead of multiple.
There’s probably some way to configure for conflict to open windows correctly but the easiest fix would probably be to use a different program for resolving conflicts. I usually use the resolver built into the git client Fork but there are nicer dedicated apps for that like Kaleidoscope.
I’ve used Spectacle now Rectangle forever-ish, so I don’t check as often as I should, but there seem to be more native features than I remember, like toggles for:
and
Although features like being able to use your iPhone from your MacBook is pretty nice. The sync'd messaging and notifications as well.
True, but I never had those things sync to my Windows or Linux machines when I used Android. So it doesn't really feel like I've lost anything on Mac. There is probably a way to make Android sync messages to Mac anyways.
Not sure if exactly what syncing messages means, but if you have an android phone you can go to messages.google.com, pair your phone, and text via your browser.
I meant having the messages show up on your desktop via an app or browser or something. If you are using iOS and macOS they will synchronize directly through a native app with near identical functionality between the two.
I had to upgrade recently from an early MS surface book that I absolutely loved.
After weeks of research I landed fairly confidently on the ASUS ZenBook S14. I am very impressed with the build quality, battery life and performance of it so far. I haven’t had to talk to customer service yet so not sure how ASUS does in that department. But overall I’m very happy with it.
My assessment of the close alternatives were:
Thinkpad (X1) - they seem like nice machines but I couldn’t justify the price for the value of the major components.
Mac - Obviously a proven machine. I don’t like Apple’s walled garden or OS so a non-starter for me.
Framework - Again, compared to the ZenBook the value for components received was not great. The finish and “build quality” seemed to be middling. It was a close second to the ZB just because I really like the concept.
Didn’t really look at Dell, HP, Acer etc.. but I’ve had multiple horrible CS experiences with Dell recently and the HP lines didn’t inspire me.
Good luck with your search!
4K video editing can be very demanding depending on the codecs used. That remark is the only thing that makes me hesitate to endorse something like the Lenovo IdeaPad Pro 5 as a single solution to your computing needs.
Linux compatibility on my "XiaoXinPro" 14 AHP9 (AMD Ryzen 7 8845H w/ Radeon 780M Graphics; 32GB 6400 MT/s; 84wh) has been pretty good. I bought it in Hong Kong last year for $828.
Before that, I was using a Tuxedo Pulse 15 (AMD 4800H; 91wh) and was pretty happy with that aside from the poor chassis/keyboard build quality. The chassis of the IdeaPad is definitely an upgrade from that experience but falls slightly short of the unibody MacBook Pro feeling.
So what's the price point you're looking at, and where are you based?
I feel it's impossible to chance a recommendation without that.
As for my experience: I was considering a MacBook Air as well, but I find their storage and memory pricing reprehensible. However, the machine looked quite attractive and so in comparison I also didn't really like the prices any of the big names had to offer, really.
I'm pretty happy with what I got in the end: a Schenker Via 14 Pro, which should be Clevo chassis that you might be able to buy from a number of different brands.
It's got a Ryzen 7 8845HS, 32GB of RAM, a 512GB SSD, and a 2K display and runs Linux perfectly, all for <1000 EUR.
From my experience, it runs Linux very well. I did have some small driver issues at the very start, since the CPU/GPU was fairly new and the GPU driver was a little weird, but that should be resolved by now.
It's not an Ultrabook and since I often use it plugged in, I'm not quite sure how long the battery will last me at a maximum. Never had any complaints, at least.
I had a MacBook Pro 2017 (the last model with Intel) for 7 years. It was my main machine for everyday use and development. I felt that macOS was too restrictive, and as a power user, I wanted to tune the environment to my needs.
About a year ago, I decided to buy a new laptop. My final options were the Framework Laptop and ThinkPad T15 (AMD). The userbase for Framework is much smaller than for ThinkPad, so it was more difficult to find insightful and deep reviews of Framework, especially comparisons to MacBook Pro. At the same time, the community of ThinkPad users seemed divided, and their discussions often devolved into arguments over matters of taste. I was also aware of sentiment regarding quality decline, and I heard it a lot from people who had been using their ThinkPads for decades. Anyway, I decided to take a risk and buy the T15 Gen 2 AMD.
My main concerns were the screen and touchpad, since I had never seen a laptop with the quality of these elements close to MacBook. Many online reviews also mentioned that the keyboard of the T15 Gen 2 is much worse than the previous model. Surprisingly, to my taste, everything turned out even better than my previous MacBook Pro 2017. The screen and touchpad are perfect, the keyboard is even more comfortable than the one from MacBook Pro, and performance and battery life with Fedora installed are great. One drawback though: the sound quality of the internal speakers is poor, which is true. But since I usually use good headphones, it doesn't bother me at all. I'm very happy that I made the switch and regret not doing it earlier because of my belief in MacBook superiority.
I can recommend finding a store with physical laptops on display and checking for yourself if the materials and build quality are suitable for you. Performance is not a problem for any modern premium laptop, as far as I know. The battery life might be slightly worse than MacBook Pro. The temperature under load could be noticeable, but you should expect this from any powerful laptop. Overall, I think if you're not happy with your MacBook Pro, make the switch. At least you'll be able to try alternatives and decide for yourself how good they are.
If I’m looking for something stationary, like a home media server, I’ll build it myself and install Debian (or Arch sometimes).
If I’m looking for a daily driver laptop? MacBook all day everyday. The walled garden isn’t that walled. Download Xcode, install Brew, do what you want with the machine while not getting bogged down with gtk and qt themes clashing, worrying about whether the WiFi chipset is supported, etc. Really need linux running on it for some reason ? UTM is free and works pretty well.
I went from a new at the time 2014 MacBook Pro to an M* model, thankfully missing some of the less performant/useable intel models, but I wouldn’t consider anything else at this point. Maybe a secondhand Thinkpad to repurpose for something specific?
It really is worth looking at brew (or nix, which works well on MacOS too) for software package installation and management in MacOS. I always have a Linux machine or three lying around, but for daily driving, MacBook all the way. With the recent M4 Airs now coming with 16GB of RAM, they’re a really compelling package. Just don’t upgrade them unless you’re made of money!
Also, and this might be just a me thing, but as someone who works in a MS ecosystem, having a native teams and OneDrive app is a big win for me over Linux. The fact that the M processor based MacBooks can run teams without the fan EVER coming on is the biggest QOL improvement I could imagine!
Can you borrow a mac from someone to use for a while, or pick up a shit old machine for a few pennies to try out before taking the plunge?
Alternatively, if you give us a list of Linux based software you like using, one of us can check to see how they work on a Mac and report back?
Sorry to add another Apple Silicon MacBook comment but as you can tell we're having trouble recommending anything else at the moment for your intended use-case. As stated, you can just ignore the Apple ecosystem, slap on Firefox or Google Chrome and enjoy.
The only use cases where I've seen the M-series not work for somebody is:
I think that you missed a huge part of the draw of the Framework laptop. Repairability is only part of it. The fact that you can upgrade individual components, and even better, then reuse the old components by putting them into a shell is huge.
If all you care about are specs, you will be hard pressed to beat a nicer Apple laptop, full stop. I also strongly dislike the Apple ecosystem and its fully integrated and un-repairable/un-upgradeable nature. In the end, if the upgrading or switching out ports doesn't offer much appeal, you can get the same of better performance from a Linux friendly laptop for much less money from Lenovo or another large OEM, just do research on the model to make sure it is fully Linux friendly.
It is. At this point, the chassis (almost all the parts, including the bezel), keyboard, touchpad, the speakers and some of the ports are from when I first purchased my (1st-gen) Framework. Everything else is an improved version of what was there before: the screen, the mainboard, the RAM, the SSD, the webcam and microphone, the battery, even the hinges.
On the other hand, I'm still strongly considering getting an MBP, despite all the disadvantages, because the hardware is just so much better. The only thing that holds me back is the extreme RAM pricing.
Something that can help with RAM/storage pricing is by going with a high spec model that’s a gen or two behind. They’re still plenty powerful but a lot cheaper. My 4TB/64GB M1 Max MBP was pretty old hat when I bought it a couple of years ago, which meant that it was on clearance and had thousands knocked off its price tag.
You can also get a certified refurbished laptop on Apple’s site to save a few hundred dollars. Or get last year’s model (with some warranty left) on eBay for a few hundred more in savings.
For most of what you use it for I would recommend a couple-generation-old used Thinkpad and install your preferred flavor of Linux on it - you'll get great performance and longevity overall.
BUT. You mention 4K video editing. That specifically calls for real horsepower, or for accepting long render times. A desktop will always have better thermal design space to work with than a laptop, and video rendering asks for a ton of compute on a 100% duty cycle - if rendering is a must, I firmly recommend a higher end desktop with good thermal management. Given what's happened with recent generation Intel chips, either go for 12th gen i7/i9 high end, or go with AMD. Threadripper build if you have the $$$ for it - though you'll need to weigh how much the video rendering performance is worth for you - literally how many thousands of dollars it's worth for your use case.
This is precisely what I did - got a three year old refurbished ThinkPad X13 Yoga, whatever the name was for about $250. It looked brand new and runs faster than my $2500 work computer (most likely due to spyware, but...)
Could you share which laptop this was exactly and from where? I'm seeing X13s going from the 100s to the 600s. Anything else you can share about the experience? Does it dock well, for example? I'm upgrading from a very old ThinkPad and too used to the eraserhead and CTRL key placement to consider anything else.
I'll try to pitch you on two machines.
In the long run, a desktop is going to give you more power at a lower cost. If you're editing 4k video, you'll feel the difference right away between even a high end laptop and a modest desktop. As years go by, you'll be able to swap out components rather than replace the whole system.
More importantly, your workhorse desktop opens up other options for laptops. If you plan to do the most demanding computational tasks on your desktop, your laptop can have a lower spec. The battery will also last you longer. You can go with a cheap used Thinkpad, even if it means gambling on upgradability. Or you can get a MacBook m1, knowing you only have to deal with the limitations of MacOS while you're on the go.
If you're on the go a lot only having one computer is a huge convenience. Depending on the budget OP has, a high end MacBook Pro is a great option and an extremely capable video editing machine.
I used to use a Windows desktop and a MacBook for general computing but found switching too much of an inconvenience to the point I stopped using the desktop altogether. Now I have it set up as a console with my TV so it gets at least some use.
Well, I just did. Apple certified refurbished MacBook Pro. Save a few hundred bucks. Get the same quality. Winning.
I think the most important factor for you would be to identify what software you're using for each of these tasks, and then what operating system(s) they will run on. Web dev can be done just about anywhere for most folks, but photo and video editing is a completely different world with a lot of subjective preferences.
Additionally, when using those applications, are you frequently using keyboard shortcuts? My partner has a MacBook and I often mistakenly use the wrong key combo for copy-paste, and I find the trackpad very different than any other laptop hardware I've used (running both Windows and Linux). This isn't necessarily a dealbreaker, but worth consideration.
I would also contemplate what your workflow for these tasks would be, particularly for video editing. That's something I would not enjoy doing on a laptop screen, and would only do when "docked" in some way with an external screen, mouse, and keyboard. If you can survive without having all of your video editing related files on your laptop, you would get more bang for your buck putting money into a desktop machine of some sort, and then just buying a ~$250 budget laptop. And doing that would also likely put you in a better position for running Linux on it, if you desire.
(Sidenote: running containers in Windows works pretty well, so depending on how much linux you like and want, you could do some level of blending it into windows. The most common use case for this is development related tasks, but I've used the built-in Ubuntu container to compile software before.)
It ultimately comes down to how you are going to use your hardware.
I have an MBP at work. It is a very nice laptop - the biggest hardware complaint I have is that the keyboard feels pretty cheap, but other than that it's a good piece of kit. Unfortunately, I really don't get along with the software running on it. It's easily as buggy as the Linux distribution I use on my home laptop that I installed for free and is maintained predominantly by volunteers. It's also very difficult to customise, especially as someone who mainly wants to be interacting with their laptop via the keyboard.
I have looked into Asahi. My plan is to try it out when the DisplayPort/Thunderbolt work is implemented, which I believe is coming but not necessarily soon. Unfortunately, I need that for my workflow right now, so I'm stuck with MacOS. It also feels a bit odd to but an MBP just to put Linux on it, especially given how limited the resources are for the Asahi project.
Outside of that, my wife has recently bought a Framework laptop (with Windows, but Linux is also meant to be very well supported), and we're pretty impressed with it so far. Hers isn't necessarily a top-of-the-range model, but the build quality feels good (similar to the MBP) and so far everything has been working very well. When my home laptop breaks, I'm thinking about getting a Framework myself. Otherwise, I've had a few ThinkPads at different workplaces and they've always been excellent, so that could also be a viable option. But I think then you need to choose the right kind of ThinkPad, because the branding isn't so clear any more.
I don't love the keyboard either. But, then, I usually use mine docked with a split keeb with actual button travel that makes me happy.