116 votes

Want employees to return to the office? Then give each one an office.

103 comments

  1. [43]
    boxer_dogs_dance
    Link
    "All right, let me now offer some advice to employers who want their workers back in the office: Why not give those workers offices worth returning to? And I mean this literally: offices. Not open...

    "All right, let me now offer some advice to employers who want their workers back in the office: Why not give those workers offices worth returning to?

    And I mean this literally: offices. Not open floor plans where people can hear every word, sneeze and gum-chew that comes from a co-worker’s mouth. Nor dispiriting cubicles that make them feel like rats in a maze. But small rooms with desks and doors that close."

    88 votes
    1. [14]
      ackables
      Link Parent
      I have an office with a door at my job and it is the second nicest work environment I’ve been in. When my coworker is whistling I can close the door and the noise is gone. The nicest work...

      I have an office with a door at my job and it is the second nicest work environment I’ve been in. When my coworker is whistling I can close the door and the noise is gone.

      The nicest work environment, though, is my home. I get my work done, just like everyone else, but the little breaks you take throughout the day are not as effective when you have the possibility of your boss walking up at any moment.

      At home, you can take a break for 10 minutes to watch a YouTube video and truly forget about work for a while. At work you are still monitoring the outside world while you take a break to make sure you don’t look bad and it’s just harder to recharge.

      I know people will say that you should be working nonstop during working hours, but that’s just not how humans work. Small breaks throughout the day make people more productive for the spurts of intense focus.

      79 votes
      1. [2]
        EgoEimi
        Link Parent
        🙌. The open plan office is a peer panopticon. With quarterly peer reviews (360s) one puts on a theatre of work. We are watched by our peers; and with our presence we implicitly watch our peers,...

        At home, you can take a break for 10 minutes to watch a YouTube video and truly forget about work for a while. At work you are still monitoring the outside world while you take a break to make sure you don’t look bad and it’s just harder to recharge.

        🙌. The open plan office is a peer panopticon. With quarterly peer reviews (360s) one puts on a theatre of work. We are watched by our peers; and with our presence we implicitly watch our peers, too.

        Knowledge work is mentally draining. Taking 'micro breaks' helps with mental stamina. Yet the peer panopticon actively discourages 'micro breaks'.

        60 votes
        1. chou
          Link Parent
          I had never heard the phrase "peer panopticon" before but it is absolutely brilliant. I'm stealing it. 😉

          I had never heard the phrase "peer panopticon" before but it is absolutely brilliant.

          I'm stealing it. 😉

          4 votes
      2. [9]
        GOTO10
        Link Parent
        I also work from home. I often go for small bike rides during the day. The number of software bugs I've pee-emptively fixed while letting my brain randomly wander during that is unbelievable. My...

        At home, you can take a break for 10 minutes

        I also work from home. I often go for small bike rides during the day. The number of software bugs I've pee-emptively fixed while letting my brain randomly wander during that is unbelievable. My bike breaks should count as double time, at least.

        37 votes
        1. [6]
          ken_cleanairsystems
          Link Parent
          This is a debugging strategy I'm... not familiar with.

          pee-emptively fixed

          This is a debugging strategy I'm... not familiar with.

          26 votes
          1. [5]
            whbboyd
            Link Parent
            Some people do their best thinking in the shower. Others, while performing… other bathroom activities.

            Some people do their best thinking in the shower. Others, while performing… other bathroom activities.

            12 votes
            1. [3]
              ThrowdoBaggins
              Link Parent
              And some people combine their shower with other bathroom activities…

              And some people combine their shower with other bathroom activities…

              5 votes
              1. [2]
                chou
                Link Parent
                I get that you might want to economize on toilet paper, but you really shouldn't poop in your shower.

                I get that you might want to economize on toilet paper, but you really shouldn't poop in your shower.

                1 vote
                1. boxer_dogs_dance
                  Link Parent
                  See the various online conversations where Americans have discovered bidets and want to spread the good news. ; )

                  See the various online conversations where Americans have discovered bidets and want to spread the good news. ; )

            2. Akir
              Link Parent
              I always wondered why my coworker brought a hairdryer with her.

              I always wondered why my coworker brought a hairdryer with her.

              2 votes
        2. [2]
          RustyRedRobot
          Link Parent
          Good for you, strict adherence to the software development life cycle.

          Good for you, strict adherence to the software development life cycle.

          2 votes
          1. TheMediumJon
            Link Parent
            This is noise and so might be a mistake, but I had to place on record: Gods damn you!

            This is noise and so might be a mistake, but I had to place on record:

            Gods damn you!

            1 vote
      3. EsteeBestee
        Link Parent
        True that. I went from working in an office 100% of the time to working remote 100% of the time in the last few years, like many people, and my productivity went up and my stress went down. Like...

        True that. I went from working in an office 100% of the time to working remote 100% of the time in the last few years, like many people, and my productivity went up and my stress went down. Like you said, being able to take small breaks that are a true break from work and not just standing up from your desk is so liberating. I can go outside for a bit, bring up a youtube video, play with my cats, etc. I'm still "at work" for the same amount of time per day, but having those micro breaks every hour, even though it results in less "desk time", results in much better results from me, it's great.

        23 votes
      4. sparksbet
        Link Parent
        Also I cannot exaggerate how nice it is to be able to do laundry or run the dishwasher during the day. It's so much more convenient to be able to put a load in and then work while it runs.

        At home, you can take a break for 10 minutes to watch a YouTube video and truly forget about work for a while.

        Also I cannot exaggerate how nice it is to be able to do laundry or run the dishwasher during the day. It's so much more convenient to be able to put a load in and then work while it runs.

        15 votes
    2. [2]
      NaraVara
      Link Parent
      My company has returned to hybrid and I had really forgotten how trash the work environment in the office actually is for doing focused work. I have a nice standing desk at home with a big 4k...

      My company has returned to hybrid and I had really forgotten how trash the work environment in the office actually is for doing focused work. I have a nice standing desk at home with a big 4k monitor and a mechanical keyboard. I have a very ergonomic chair. I have nice pens and notebooks with nice paper. I have a very good set of noise cancelling headphones. Everything is nice and pleasant to work with.

      I go to this bullpen office and, in addition to the noisiness and poor ergonomics everything is shit. The keyboard is shit. The mouse is shit. The monitor is really shit. I find doing anything extremely frustrating and simply unpleasant.

      38 votes
      1. MrFahrenheit
        Link Parent
        When I was hybrid it was incredible how many people just completely forget you exist when they can't see you. I had email, two phone numbers that rang my cell, texting, slack, gchat, and probably...

        When I was hybrid it was incredible how many people just completely forget you exist when they can't see you. I had email, two phone numbers that rang my cell, texting, slack, gchat, and probably a few other ways people could reach me. There were still a not insignificant number of people who'd only communicate by catching me in the hallway or interrupting me at my desk.

        9 votes
    3. [15]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [11]
        semsevfor
        Link Parent
        None of it makes any sense. You cut soooo many costs by having remote workers. You aren't paying for a building, utilities, office supplies, internet, A/C, building maintenance staff, janitors,...

        None of it makes any sense. You cut soooo many costs by having remote workers. You aren't paying for a building, utilities, office supplies, internet, A/C, building maintenance staff, janitors, etc.

        All of that is passed to the employees of their own home. Most of which are all too happy to stay at home and not sit in hours of traffic to commute, and save gas and time, along with the mental break and freedom of being home.

        The only conceiveable reason is the building owning companies, but if that's the case, sell the building. No more taxes and fees for owning the building, and you make money on the sale.

        Plenty of people would love to buy office space and convert or demolish/rebuild into housing, warehouse, or shop space.

        It's win-win-win all around, it's baffling that there is so much fighting it. Everyone wants it, just do it.

        28 votes
        1. [10]
          dhcrazy333
          Link Parent
          So my company recently announced in the last few months that we are going to be returning to office 2 days per week in September if you live within 50 miles of one of their bigger hubs. They have...

          So my company recently announced in the last few months that we are going to be returning to office 2 days per week in September if you live within 50 miles of one of their bigger hubs. They have had 0 flexibility on this policy. Many people live in the 25-50 mile range and were previously hired on because the job was remote, but now the commute would be 1-2 hours due to traffic. This mandate has been received extremely negatively by the employees. Senior leadership keeps saying it’s to “increase chance encounters”. I’ve been saying ever since they announced it that it’s likely because they care more about their real estate portfolio than the employees, they just won’t admit it.

          Well we had our financial results today and they called out “a decrease in real estate fund valuations”.

          I feel so vindicated right now. I suspect for many big companies it literally just comes down to real estate valuation.

          16 votes
          1. [3]
            chroma
            Link Parent
            This may come off as naive. I 100% agree that "increasing chance encounters" is a poor excuse, especially if your company overwhelmingly would prefer not to return to office. I've heard a few...

            This may come off as naive. I 100% agree that "increasing chance encounters" is a poor excuse, especially if your company overwhelmingly would prefer not to return to office. I've heard a few times as well that it's a cover for the fact that they spent big bucks on an office nobody's using.

            Genuine question, because I actually don't understand: What does people coming into the office have anything to do with real estate valuation? Is the value of an office building driven by the number of employees working in it or something? Are company leaders dealing with a sunk cost dilemma and forcing their workers to use the thing they paid for, rather than sell the property?

            9 votes
            1. [2]
              dhcrazy333
              Link Parent
              Many big downtown areas have large swaths of commercial real estate. If most companies have people using the office, investors see the office spaces as valuable and in demand, and their valuations...

              Many big downtown areas have large swaths of commercial real estate. If most companies have people using the office, investors see the office spaces as valuable and in demand, and their valuations go up. Simple supply and demand really. If you have a product or service and there is a large demand for it, it will have a higher price point because everyone wants it.

              If everyone is working from home and no one is using he offices, investors see it as dead weight and not valuable, so the valuation decreases, as there’s no demand for those traditional office spaces.

              One way senior leaders are trying to combat this low demand for office currently (and thus low valuation) is to..force people back in, artificially creating demand where there really isn’t any.

              Investors see more people using the offices, “demand” is increased, valuation goes up.

              16 votes
              1. chroma
                Link Parent
                Thanks for this. I appreciate that the answer is simple.

                Thanks for this. I appreciate that the answer is simple.

                1 vote
          2. [2]
            MrFahrenheit
            Link Parent
            Any smart company would be looking at this as an opportunity to reduce their real estate holdings. Buildings are expensive. However, they may be locked into long-term leases. Personally I believe...

            Any smart company would be looking at this as an opportunity to reduce their real estate holdings. Buildings are expensive. However, they may be locked into long-term leases.

            Personally I believe that the "return to office" is driven by two major things 1) bad management and 2) quiet layoffs.

            Managing a remote workforce is different and bad managers don't believe people are working if they don't see the work happen.

            Forcing people back to the office, even part-time, will cause attrition and executives know this. This cuts costs and boosts profits without the bad press of layoffs.

            As commercial real estate leases expire, I would not at all be shocked to see more companies embracing remote work.

            7 votes
            1. dhcrazy333
              Link Parent
              Yeah I’m fairly certain the RTO is so they can complete some “quiet layoffs” as well. Profitability was down these last few quarters (mostly driven but uncontrollable factors) but one way to work...

              Yeah I’m fairly certain the RTO is so they can complete some “quiet layoffs” as well. Profitability was down these last few quarters (mostly driven but uncontrollable factors) but one way to work towards profitability is to layoff stay. But why lay off people and pay for unemployment when you can get them to leave voluntarily?

              5 votes
          3. [2]
            Sodliddesu
            Link Parent
            Most of my team is either a plane ride or a five-hour drive away, the rest even further, yet my boss('s boss) insists I sit in an office with my one report in case someone comes in. But, hey, the...

            Senior leadership keeps saying it’s to “increase chance encounters”.

            Most of my team is either a plane ride or a five-hour drive away, the rest even further, yet my boss('s boss) insists I sit in an office with my one report in case someone comes in.

            But, hey, the chance occasions where my bosses plan something and decide not to ever tell me and drop in unexpectedly at 4pm on a Friday have gone swimmingly due to this work arrangement.

            1 vote
            1. dhcrazy333
              Link Parent
              Ours is even worse. My entire team is on the opposite coast as me. My boss is remote in texas away from the entire rest of my team. I'd still be required to go into my office for "chance...

              Ours is even worse. My entire team is on the opposite coast as me. My boss is remote in texas away from the entire rest of my team.

              I'd still be required to go into my office for "chance encounters" with people outside my team.

              1 vote
          4. [2]
            frailtomato
            Link Parent
            You probably won't answer this, but I'm curious - do you work for Zoom?

            You probably won't answer this, but I'm curious - do you work for Zoom?

            1. dhcrazy333
              Link Parent
              I do not, but I do work for a large corporation, and pretty much most of the major players in our industry have instituted a vrry similar return to office requirement in very similar time frames.

              I do not, but I do work for a large corporation, and pretty much most of the major players in our industry have instituted a vrry similar return to office requirement in very similar time frames.

      2. [3]
        earlsweatshirt
        Link Parent
        I think outside of the real estate angle, it’s a culture thing. Some people strongly believe that people collaborate better in person, and think there is value to the ‘hallway conversations’ that...

        I think outside of the real estate angle, it’s a culture thing. Some people strongly believe that people collaborate better in person, and think there is value to the ‘hallway conversations’ that come with sharing a physical space.

        9 votes
        1. [2]
          doctorwu
          Link Parent
          I feel there's some merit to this, at least when it is not taken as an absolute. I've got what might be an ideal work arrangement, which is an unmetered hybrid agreement. More often than not I...

          I feel there's some merit to this, at least when it is not taken as an absolute. I've got what might be an ideal work arrangement, which is an unmetered hybrid agreement. More often than not I work from home, but when I do go to the office, there is a room for me where I can shut the door. And on those days I find the hallway conversations are often more productive and effortless than the numerous video chats I have from home.

          My percentage of time on site usually varies depending on the kinds of projects on my plate at any given time. Some require deeper concentration and more solitude.

          11 votes
          1. earlsweatshirt
            Link Parent
            That’s about where I’m at too. I’m actually a bit conflicted on this issue. On the one hand, I genuinely feel there is some value to being in person and having those chance encounters / building...

            That’s about where I’m at too. I’m actually a bit conflicted on this issue. On the one hand, I genuinely feel there is some value to being in person and having those chance encounters / building that team chemistry. On the other, I’m not convinced it’s worth wasting 2 hours to commute in, and nobody pays for that commute..

            6 votes
    4. [3]
      catahoula_leopard
      Link Parent
      This whole situation really opened my eyes to how well we adapt to different environments, at least when we're forced to. Before the pandemic I worked in-office 2-3 days a week, and used to get...

      Not open floor plans where people can hear every word, sneeze and gum-chew that comes from a co-worker’s mouth

      This whole situation really opened my eyes to how well we adapt to different environments, at least when we're forced to. Before the pandemic I worked in-office 2-3 days a week, and used to get most of my work done there (work from home days used to be for slower days of work.) In 2020 it took me months to figure out how to be productive at home, but once I did, I couldn't go back. When I tried to re-enter the office in 2021, I was absolutely astounded by how loud and distracting it was, even though barely 20% of the people had returned to work in-office. I think I tried 5-10 times working there, getting absolutely nothing done each time. And because people's productivity went up so much at home (or at least mine did,) I had around 3x the workload I had before the pandemic. I also no longer had a permanent desk, so the entire process became more complicated, lugging all kinds of supplies, phone chargers, etc. to the office each time.

      Now, I'm feeling socially isolated because I work 100% remotely for a company in another state. I actually loved getting to know my coworkers in a physical office, it really helps me find happiness in work. I'm a big supporter of companies offering an optional office to work in so everyone can be happy. But I just can't be productive enough in an office anymore, so even that wouldn't solve my issue.

      16 votes
      1. [2]
        imperator
        Link Parent
        Maybe ask if they'll fly you out there once a quarter for a week so you have that opportunity. I agree I like getting to talk to people in person. It definitely is nice. But I don't like the non...

        Maybe ask if they'll fly you out there once a quarter for a week so you have that opportunity.

        I agree I like getting to talk to people in person. It definitely is nice. But I don't like the non flexibility the office has. I also want a lower cost of living

        9 votes
        1. sparksbet
          Link Parent
          My company (fully-remote and international) does something like that, where we have meet-ups for certain teams multiple times a year. Since our group is so spread out, they move around too. In the...

          My company (fully-remote and international) does something like that, where we have meet-ups for certain teams multiple times a year. Since our group is so spread out, they move around too. In the past two years we've done Belfast, DC, Berlin, Austin, Santa Barbara, and Montreal (and that's just the engineering team, I think Sales or Marketing has had some of their own meetups). It ends up being one big concentrated dose of socialization which is quite fun.

          10 votes
    5. [7]
      dhcrazy333
      Link Parent
      One other thing is employers will also need to understand that for some employees, with how far they are from the office, there is no office worth them returning to. People value their work-life...

      One other thing is employers will also need to understand that for some employees, with how far they are from the office, there is no office worth them returning to.

      People value their work-life balance. Traveling an hour+ in traffic each way to do a job that can just as easily be done at home, is just not worth it for many. That's 10+ hours a week that the employee loses from their personal life, plus cost of gas, wear and tear on car, and they are not compensated for that loss of time.

      In the digital age, an in-office requirement for someone who is meeting performance expectations remotely is just not justifiable.

      10 votes
      1. [6]
        ThrowdoBaggins
        Link Parent
        I think I work in a relatively flexible business, and I’ve seen some people essentially putting the commute into work hours instead of personal hours by starting their day at home remotely, then...

        I think I work in a relatively flexible business, and I’ve seen some people essentially putting the commute into work hours instead of personal hours by starting their day at home remotely, then commuting into the office mid-morning, then heading back home before the end of the day and wrapping things up remotely. Nobody has specifically pointed it out or talked about it, so I might be wrong and they might be making up the time by starting earlier and/or finishing later than the usual 9-5 but that seems to me that’s how it goes?

        5 votes
        1. [3]
          dhcrazy333
          Link Parent
          I would be surprised if most businesses are just ok with someone decreasing their working hours down to 6 from 8 so they can commute during working hours. If they are commuting during working...

          I would be surprised if most businesses are just ok with someone decreasing their working hours down to 6 from 8 so they can commute during working hours. If they are commuting during working hours, I would imagine they are either making up the extra time outside of normal hours (which brings us back to the initial point of loss of personal time), or they are now working less hours and the company/employee is likely going to be unnecessarily experiencing productivity dips due to the decrease in hours worked.

          3 votes
          1. [2]
            ThrowdoBaggins
            Link Parent
            This presumes that the maximum weekly productivity that a given employee can output is best achieved with an eight hour block of time per day. I strongly disagree with that assumption. Many of the...

            or they are now working less hours and the company/employee is likely going to be unnecessarily experiencing productivity dips due to the decrease in hours worked

            This presumes that the maximum weekly productivity that a given employee can output is best achieved with an eight hour block of time per day.

            I strongly disagree with that assumption.

            Many of the people I work with who do this report better outcomes than if they’d been working the whole day in a single block of time. And from what I can see and from discussions I’ve had with people from varied industries, the same rings true for most mental work. If the work gets done, why does it matter how long it takes? If I’m fast enough at my job that I can get it done in that 6 hours instead of 8, why should the business care that I used another two hours between 9am and 5pm commuting back and forth instead of browsing the internet or watching funny cat videos or whatever else people do during the day to take a mental break?

            Plus there’s nothing magical about the 8-hour workday, it’s just a number that the corporate world seems to have landed on half a century ago, and very few workplaces are willing to experiment if that’s actually the best outcome or not.

            Admittedly I could believe physical work may have different outcomes under this model, but for mental work at least, it seems to stand up.

            3 votes
            1. dhcrazy333
              Link Parent
              I think this is a tangential issue that I actually agree with you about though. Most people are more productive if they are able to break up their work day with smaller breaks in between, and from...

              I think this is a tangential issue that I actually agree with you about though. Most people are more productive if they are able to break up their work day with smaller breaks in between, and from a salaried perspective, yeah, if I’m getting paid to do the job, why do you care if I finish it in 6 hours or 8 hours? If it’s done, it’s done.

              With that said though, unfortunately what businesses tend to do is punish the efficient. “This person was able to get the job done faster, let’s give him more work so we can be more productive as a whole”. There’s usually a backlog of work that gets piled on. I’m not convinced most people are taking 2 hour breaks during the day and wouldn’t be surprised if the backlog piles up if they just cut out another 2 hour chunk out of the day, my assumption would be that the worker is still going to be taking their mini breaks during those remaining 6 hours anyway. I know I would.

              2 votes
        2. freedomischaos
          Link Parent
          This is what I've been doing. I get in really early and leave mid day for "lunch" and head home and setup again then actually grab something to eat and restart again. Almost all my colleagues do...

          This is what I've been doing. I get in really early and leave mid day for "lunch" and head home and setup again then actually grab something to eat and restart again. Almost all my colleagues do something similar.

        3. Octofox
          Link Parent
          I sometimes do this, but then I also just keep working on the train

          I sometimes do this, but then I also just keep working on the train

    6. whbboyd
      Link Parent
      It's hard to micromanage people when there's a door between you and them. Literally the same reason companies want employees back in the office to begin with.

      It's hard to micromanage people when there's a door between you and them. Literally the same reason companies want employees back in the panopticon office to begin with.

      6 votes
    7. slothywaffle
      Link Parent
      We have an open floorplan and I work in customer service. It's super fun on the 1 day a month we're all required to be in the office at the same time and we're all on the phone trying to be quiet...

      We have an open floorplan and I work in customer service. It's super fun on the 1 day a month we're all required to be in the office at the same time and we're all on the phone trying to be quiet but the customer can definitely hear everything going on in the background. Thank God it's only once per month!

      3 votes
  2. [3]
    AugustusFerdinand
    Link
    An office is a nice upgrade to a cubicle (or the utter idiocy of an open office setting), but it does not account for commute time. My house is better than any office, my commute is the...

    An office is a nice upgrade to a cubicle (or the utter idiocy of an open office setting), but it does not account for commute time. My house is better than any office, my commute is the 30-seconds-to-two-minutes-walk down my hallway (time varies depending on the quantity of belly rubs my dog wants during the requisite pit stop on the way), and my home office doesn't have a dress code that requires pants.
    I didn't wear pants during my remote interview, I haven't worn pants during a single day of work (and I've been remote for years prior to COVID), it will take an exorbitant amount of money that no business would ever pay me to put on pants and commute to an office to do the exact same work I'd be doing pants-less with a pupper at my feet at home.

    They simply can't pay me enough to deal with that shit and I don't give a flying fuck about their corporate real estate values.

    28 votes
    1. [2]
      RustyRedRobot
      Link Parent
      As an Englishman reading about you not wearing any pants was a bit eyebrow raising. I'm assuming you mean the American pants?

      As an Englishman reading about you not wearing any pants was a bit eyebrow raising. I'm assuming you mean the American pants?

      3 votes
      1. AugustusFerdinand
        Link Parent
        I mean pants, not underpants. But to go further, I also frequently go without underpants, or "English pants" as well.

        I mean pants, not underpants.
        But to go further, I also frequently go without underpants, or "English pants" as well.

        3 votes
  3. [2]
    Lapbunny
    Link
    I've got an office in my house, no thanks.

    I've got an office in my house, no thanks.

    26 votes
    1. boxer_dogs_dance
      Link Parent
      I agree, but having suffered in hot desk working environments where I couldn't store anything, and worked elbow to elbow in rooms full of computers, I think she is making an important point that...

      I agree, but having suffered in hot desk working environments where I couldn't store anything, and worked elbow to elbow in rooms full of computers, I think she is making an important point that could reduce in office suffering.

      15 votes
  4. [2]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. boxer_dogs_dance
      Link Parent
      Thanks for that analysis. For my preferences I would add, the ability to keep a small plant at my work station. Store works supplies and snacks that won't get stolen.

      Thanks for that analysis.

      For my preferences I would add, the ability to keep a small plant at my work station. Store works supplies and snacks that won't get stolen.

      7 votes
  5. [12]
    stu2b50
    Link
    To offer a different perspective, I have the opposite opinion - if I'm going to go into an office, I want something different than what I can get at home. There doesn't seem to be much point if...

    To offer a different perspective, I have the opposite opinion - if I'm going to go into an office, I want something different than what I can get at home. There doesn't seem to be much point if I'm just alone in a room. I like the open office plan - it gives a feel of energy and community that can be nice. It's nice that it's easy to access other people. I don't mind working in an open space with other people.

    What makes office work different than work from home is other people, so if I'm going to an office, put me with other people!

    19 votes
    1. [5]
      JackA
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Do you have the option to WFH though? Because as someone without the option I've noticed open offices kill any ability for me to put my head down and get work done. There's the constant stress of...

      Do you have the option to WFH though? Because as someone without the option I've noticed open offices kill any ability for me to put my head down and get work done. There's the constant stress of presenting yourself to coworkers around you that wears on me every day along with the constant little questions that you have no option to triage or briefly ignore to finish a task like you would in an email or chat message.

      Management will make arguments just like yours because it's convenient for them to walk out of their personal offices or come into the building (when they feel like it) because they already have a safe productivity space, we don't. As such our experience becomes terrible just because they're too lazy to schedule a meeting or send an email and wait for a reply.

      9 votes
      1. [3]
        teaearlgraycold
        Link Parent
        Is this self-imposed? Or is this your company's culture? I've never worked in person somewhere where people are afraid to dick around on HN/reddit/whatever some of the time. There should be the...

        There's the constant stress of presenting yourself to coworkers around you

        Is this self-imposed? Or is this your company's culture? I've never worked in person somewhere where people are afraid to dick around on HN/reddit/whatever some of the time. There should be the understanding that getting a good amount of work done is enough. Maximizing PrOdUcTiViTy isn't the goal. Hopefully everyone can go home feeling a little bit accomplished. That's enough.

        4 votes
        1. ThrowdoBaggins
          Link Parent
          Even if that was the goal, I do much more, much faster, much better quality work when I do it in autonomously-decided bursts and surges throughout the day than if you wanted me to be “just doing...

          There should be the understanding that getting a good amount of work done is enough. Maximizing PrOdUcTiViTy isn't the goal.

          Even if that was the goal, I do much more, much faster, much better quality work when I do it in autonomously-decided bursts and surges throughout the day than if you wanted me to be “just doing something” every minute of the day.

          I explicitly know this because I switched from a job where the managers would have a word if they ever saw you not working, to a job where my output is only ever considered across the day or week or month. I feel way better and I waste so much time joking around with colleagues and still have way better quality and volume of output then ever!

          6 votes
        2. deimosthenes
          Link Parent
          I think it's often self-imposed, but has become self-imposed because of that one workplace with poor culture (or individual shitty manager at an otherwise alright workplace) that many of us will...

          I think it's often self-imposed, but has become self-imposed because of that one workplace with poor culture (or individual shitty manager at an otherwise alright workplace) that many of us will have passed through leaving some lasting paranoia.

          4 votes
      2. stu2b50
        Link Parent
        I do now, although I did not pre-covid, and my opinion wasn't any different. I remember the only place I've worked at where it wasn't open office was an internship at a boomer company where we had...

        I do now, although I did not pre-covid, and my opinion wasn't any different. I remember the only place I've worked at where it wasn't open office was an internship at a boomer company where we had cubicles, and it was so depressing that all the interns basically took over a meeting room and turned it into an impromptu open office.

        Management will make arguments just like yours because it's convenient for them to walk out of their personal offices or come into the building (when they feel like it) because they already have a safe productivity space

        For context, I'm both not a manager and at every place I've worked, managers sat in the open office alongside everyone else.

        3 votes
    2. [3]
      ComicSans72
      Link Parent
      I manage a couple teams and their bonding with team mates was definitely less during WFH times, which generally made them less happy. So... I get why companies want people to see each other. I...

      I manage a couple teams and their bonding with team mates was definitely less during WFH times, which generally made them less happy. So... I get why companies want people to see each other. I literally had to set up lots of games nights at some points so that we could actually spend some time laughing with each other to reduce stress and depression.

      I always find these threads weird because I don't think any of them want to go back to never coming in. That said, I've also never had my own office and kinda want one some day. It would be worthless because I never even sit at my desk, but it still sounds neat.

      7 votes
      1. [2]
        avirse
        Link Parent
        The misanthropes and other WFH-lovers are very loud whenever the topic comes up! I'm with stu2b50, though. I hate when I go into the office and see no one at all, it's the worst of both worlds...

        The misanthropes and other WFH-lovers are very loud whenever the topic comes up!

        I'm with stu2b50, though. I hate when I go into the office and see no one at all, it's the worst of both worlds (social isolation of WFH with commute expenses - both money and time - of in-office). We're all theoretically hybrid but only required in for 2 days across 2 weeks and no one actually tracks it. I go in for half-days and more often than not it's a ghost-town.

        9 votes
        1. Ellecram
          Link Parent
          My agency allows a few work from home days per month depending on the worker/situations. However, my agency provides social work/child protection services which requires a lot of in person...

          My agency allows a few work from home days per month depending on the worker/situations.

          However, my agency provides social work/child protection services which requires a lot of in person contact.
          We all have our own offices with doors. I love it.

          I worked from home about a week during covid and was relieved I was allowed to come back full time during that period.

          1 vote
    3. selib
      Link Parent
      I agree with you. If I'm at the office i basically want chat with my coworkers all day. If i need to do focused work I'll put on headphones.

      I agree with you. If I'm at the office i basically want chat with my coworkers all day. If i need to do focused work I'll put on headphones.

      4 votes
    4. CptBluebear
      Link Parent
      Whenever I'm in the office (about once a week) I can go absolutely batty when a couple of my colleagues are doing meetings or taking calls at the same time. It's so incredibly noisy I can't hear...

      Whenever I'm in the office (about once a week) I can go absolutely batty when a couple of my colleagues are doing meetings or taking calls at the same time. It's so incredibly noisy I can't hear myself think.

      But.. I agree with you and the premise of the article. Perhaps an entire office to yourself isn't your preferred option, but it doesn't mean the open floor plan has to be ugly or frustrating to be in.
      An open office can be built well and still provide people with privacy and a way to connect to others.

      Offices need to have a tangible benefit or I'll stay at home, which is what ends up being what I mostly do anyway, but knowing that the once a week office visit is actually going to be good makes it something I can enjoy and not just feel like I must.

      There's a middle ground here that I think works well for hybrid work.

      4 votes
    5. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. stu2b50
        Link Parent
        Software engineer. So computer + meetings.

        Software engineer. So computer + meetings.

        3 votes
  6. [11]
    moriarty
    Link
    I am SO tired of reading yet another mouthpiece for billionaires trying to tell employees off for wanting just a little better work life balance. Study after study is showing that employees are...

    I am SO tired of reading yet another mouthpiece for billionaires trying to tell employees off for wanting just a little better work life balance. Study after study is showing that employees are happier, more productive and cheaper when WFH. You want employees to come to the office because you think more in-person collaboration benefits your business? Fine, put your money where your mouth is and pay us for our commute time!

    19 votes
    1. [6]
      Nijuu
      Link Parent
      Thing is, people agreed to work in job Xyz and part of that commitment is to attend work in person. Wfh was always an option for some. Not a right. Many of us aren't lucky enough to work with a...

      Thing is, people agreed to work in job Xyz and part of that commitment is to attend work in person. Wfh was always an option for some. Not a right. Many of us aren't lucky enough to work with a wfh option. Many industries dont.

      3 votes
      1. moriarty
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Nobody said anything about it being a right. Employers thought that the only way to make sure work gets done is if it's done in the office. The pandemic happened and proved that assumption wrong....

        Nobody said anything about it being a right. Employers thought that the only way to make sure work gets done is if it's done in the office. The pandemic happened and proved that assumption wrong. Productiveness not only didn't drop, it went up. Employees started to appreciate how much better work life balance was when WFH. Win win.
        Not sure why it matters that some industries can't wfh. That's like saying we shouldn't improve our quality of life because there are people starving in Africa.

        12 votes
      2. [2]
        ThrowdoBaggins
        Link Parent
        That’s true for people who have been in the same job since 2019 or before, but at least in Australia there’s been a huge surge of people switching jobs during and after the pandemic, and even...

        Thing is, people agreed to work in job Xyz and part of that commitment is to attend work in person.

        That’s true for people who have been in the same job since 2019 or before, but at least in Australia there’s been a huge surge of people switching jobs during and after the pandemic, and even moving house (for example so they can have a proper home office, or further out of the city because it’s cheaper and there’s no longer the expectation of commuting) because the job that they signed up for was remote. For those people, a demand to come back to the office wasn’t part of the original deal.

        8 votes
        1. Nijuu
          Link Parent
          Thats fair enough. I meant the ones who never had the wfh option written in the original agreement. No real recourse.The other ones who got applied got the job as wfh... the employer should honor...

          Thats fair enough. I meant the ones who never had the wfh option written in the original agreement. No real recourse.The other ones who got applied got the job as wfh... the employer should honor it if its in the agreement right?

          1 vote
      3. doogle
        Link Parent
        I was told by my current employer that I would have the choice to be fully remote when RTO inevitably happened. I foolishly took them at their word and did not get it in writing. Now they're...

        I was told by my current employer that I would have the choice to be fully remote when RTO inevitably happened. I foolishly took them at their word and did not get it in writing. Now they're claiming they never told me I could be fully remote and are requiring all employees to work in-office 3 days a week.

        In unrelated news, I found a really cool new background image for my LinkedIn profile!

        7 votes
      4. Casocial
        Link Parent
        There are certainly some positions and industries where an in-person presence is required. They're not affected by work-from-home policies, though. People in other occupations might get the added...

        There are certainly some positions and industries where an in-person presence is required. They're not affected by work-from-home policies, though. People in other occupations might get the added benefit of WFH, but that doesn't take anything away from those with in-person jobs.

        It's the same concept as student loan forgiveness. Those who have paid off their loans won't get that relief, but they don't lose anything from it.

        4 votes
    2. teaearlgraycold
      Link Parent
      I think many businesses could afford to pay people the same amount for only 4x 8 hours of work per week. That would be a massive win for office workers.

      I think many businesses could afford to pay people the same amount for only 4x 8 hours of work per week. That would be a massive win for office workers.

      2 votes
    3. [3]
      Tatia
      Link Parent
      I've never understood the "pay me for commute time" argument. I mean, if that's the case, I'll live the farthest allowable distance away. Why pay higher rents to live close to your job when you...

      I've never understood the "pay me for commute time" argument. I mean, if that's the case, I'll live the farthest allowable distance away. Why pay higher rents to live close to your job when you can get paid more by living farther away. Plus you're fucked if you do live further away and you really want the job. The hiring managers will be factoring in the cost of commute.

      1 vote
      1. moriarty
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Or companies will actually be incentived to offer wfh options if they want to hire top talent living further away. I mean we're already doing this with hiring remote top talent from tech hubs like...

        Or companies will actually be incentived to offer wfh options if they want to hire top talent living further away. I mean we're already doing this with hiring remote top talent from tech hubs like Bay Area and Seattle. CEOs will be forced to consider the ROI of blanket RTO mandates. You never understood it? It makes perfect sense to me.

        3 votes
      2. earlsweatshirt
        Link Parent
        In the latter case, you would just offer to take the job at whatever salary they’d give someone closer. It’s not really any different than today, where companies factor in the CoL for the hiring...

        In the latter case, you would just offer to take the job at whatever salary they’d give someone closer. It’s not really any different than today, where companies factor in the CoL for the hiring area and relocation costs if applicable.

        2 votes
  7. johansolo
    (edited )
    Link
    Though I'm fully remote now, my job was previously in an office as described (a room to call my own with a desk and a door that closed) and I used to say that I would not only never work in an...

    Though I'm fully remote now, my job was previously in an office as described (a room to call my own with a desk and a door that closed) and I used to say that I would not only never work in an open-office format, but that it would take a significant raise to get me to move back to a cubicle. The difference in quality of worklife when in an office versus cubicle (or especially versus "open office") cannot be overstated.

    13 votes
  8. hobbes64
    Link
    This has been known for decades. See Peopleware For Knowledge workers it's extremely disruptive to be interrupted, and most office environments foster constant interruption. But in my opinion, you...

    This has been known for decades.

    See Peopleware

    For Knowledge workers it's extremely disruptive to be interrupted, and most office environments foster constant interruption.

    But in my opinion, you don't really need offices. One thing I used to like, and found almost cozy, was a cubicle as long as the walls were tall enough so that you couldn't see over it. You also need neighbors who aren't too loud, or a noise cancelling system.

    The worst thing is the open office format where someone is constantly catching your eye and distracting you. It's worse than being in grade school. All this talk of collaboration was just an excuse to have cheaper office layouts. You only need a few small meeting areas even if you have dozens of employees.

    11 votes
  9. teaearlgraycold
    Link
    I feel like I'm in a different world than all of the other office workers. I'm a software developer and I've been very productive at home, but I've also been just as productive, and happier,...

    I feel like I'm in a different world than all of the other office workers. I'm a software developer and I've been very productive at home, but I've also been just as productive, and happier, working in an open floor plan office. I want to work on stuff that requires collaboration - and it's 10x easier to do that when you can talk to the people on your project by leaning over and not by scheduling a video call.

    The open floor plan office is a cost-saving measure. I do think that the ideal would have more space between desks - and giving everyone their own room is perfectly fine. But my highest priorities are not to get paid or simply getting the work done. I'm there to learn in the highest fidelity environment possible. But I understand that a lot of people are there because of the pay and not because programming is their dream job.

    10 votes
  10. Parliament
    Link
    I thought I would always love having my own office when I finally got one about 7 years into my career, but by the time the pandemic hit and I changed to my current job in January 2022, I had...

    I thought I would always love having my own office when I finally got one about 7 years into my career, but by the time the pandemic hit and I changed to my current job in January 2022, I had realized that I was feeling very isolated going into a fishbowl office and barely talking to anyone outside of Teams. It was less isolating when my wife and I were WFH together before RTO for me in 2021. Now I feel a lot more socially stimulated working in an open office with a fun group of 7 people closer to my age range, and I'm more productive because I can go through the feedback loop super quick by just asking a question to the room as needed. I had to get a nice headset with microphone though since I can't talk on speakerphone anymore!

    So I think it depends on the person and situation. I'm a social person and found an open office environment where I can get social stimulation both through doing the work and BSing with coworkers on the side or at the end of the day over a drink. I miss the amount of privacy I used to have, but I definitely wouldn't trade back for the environment I used to have.

    9 votes
  11. [5]
    SpinnerMaster
    Link
    While I generally support this idea, you should know that Megan McArdle is totally disconnected from normal reality and understand that she does not work a normal job.

    While I generally support this idea, you should know that Megan McArdle is totally disconnected from normal reality and understand that she does not work a normal job.

    8 votes
    1. boxer_dogs_dance
      Link Parent
      Good to know. I don't necessarily support her conclusions a hundred percent but the article has already generated pretty decent discussion imho.

      Good to know. I don't necessarily support her conclusions a hundred percent but the article has already generated pretty decent discussion imho.

      2 votes
    2. [3]
      RobotOverlord525
      Link Parent
      Out of curiosity, what specifically makes you say that? Just this article?

      Out of curiosity, what specifically makes you say that? Just this article?

      1. [2]
        SpinnerMaster
        Link Parent
        I will never forget the wildly insensitive article she wrote immediately after the Grenfell Tower tragedy:...

        I will never forget the wildly insensitive article she wrote immediately after the Grenfell Tower tragedy: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-06-16/beware-of-blaming-government-for-london-tower-fire#xj4y7vzkg

        Though this is not related to the article above, anyone who starts an article with the thesis that a deadly fire is preferable to having security rules in place is clearly not grounded in the real world.

        Again, I like the general idea that everyone should have their own office, but I want to make sure everyone is aware that McArdle does not have management experience or has worked any sort of "regular" office job beyond being a blogger/columnist.

        5 votes
        1. blivet
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          She was also a particularly bloodthirsty proponent of George W. Bush’s invasion of Iraq, writing under the name of “Jane Galt”. My favorite was when she suggested that anyone protesting the...

          She was also a particularly bloodthirsty proponent of George W. Bush’s invasion of Iraq, writing under the name of “Jane Galt”. My favorite was when she suggested that anyone protesting the invasion should be beaten with a two-by-four.

          5 votes
  12. sublime_aenima
    Link
    I’ve worked in labs, in cubicles, in open offices, remote, and currently in a private office onsite. Each one has its advantages and disadvantages depending upon the actual work being performed....

    I’ve worked in labs, in cubicles, in open offices, remote, and currently in a private office onsite. Each one has its advantages and disadvantages depending upon the actual work being performed.

    I’ve found that if the meeting I’m in is boring or if I only need to pay attention to the details that concern me I will prefer virtual meetings and do something else for the bulk of the meeting. Sometimes it’s productive, more often than not it’s browsing the web or doing an unrelated task. When working from home this would often be running errands, cleaning my house, making meals, etc. At work it’s sitting on my phone, or doing actual work in a separate window. If it’s an in person meeting, I will pay attention even if it’s just enough to not be rude.

    The problem with many meetings are that they don’t need to be meetings and could be an email instead. If I call a meeting it’s to brainstorm, align, or get feedback. For those I prefer in person because body language is an important part of feedback.

    Working in an open office is good when everyone’s job overlaps and you need to work as a team. Otherwise it’s absolutely horrible. In reality a conference room that can be used when needed or an office when not is a much better option. Cubicles are acknowledgment that you probably need an office or WFH but the company doesn’t value you / your privacy enough.

    8 votes
  13. meff
    (edited )
    Link
    I really dislike the debates about WFH because they're mostly about which personality types we are, and so the medium we use to discuss selects who will participate in the discussion. The folks...

    I really dislike the debates about WFH because they're mostly about which personality types we are, and so the medium we use to discuss selects who will participate in the discussion. The folks who spend lots of time online are generally the folks least likely to do well in an in-person social setting. Online life tends to self-select for folks who find in-person socializing to some extent exhausting, stressful, or anxiety inducing. These folks are the most likely to favor smaller social groups and will find it more enjoyable to work alone or among family.

    My partner is the exact opposite of most of the commenters in this thread, but I don't think she's that rare. She has ADHD and craves stimulus; interacting with people is a large part of how she gets stimulus. The move to permanent remote work was very detrimental to her mental health. Now that she has a choice to go to the office she does. Working the way everyone in this thread (and lots of other online threads) discusses would be her form of personal hell. For folks like her though, a personal office would probably be the same as WFH, a sort of isolating space where the things that give her energy just don't exist. I'm somewhere in the middle. I had an office as a senior grad student and it felt very similarly to when I used to work from my own apartment (which is very common among grad students.)

    I always thought cubicles were the perfect middle ground. Isolated enough that you could disconnect if you found social situations overwhelming but open enough that when you need to ask a question or just want to impromptu socialize, you could. If you were the type that really didn't want to socialize at work, a few unenthusiastic conversations in your cube would be enough to signal that you didn't really enjoy work socializing. As someone who needs some social energy in my life but also can get overstimulated in an open office, my time working in cubicles was the best of both worlds.

    EDIT: I also think there are some pretty detrimental effects of WFH on junior employees. A lot of junior employees need a quick feedback loop to unblock themselves the first dozen times they get blocked. WFH environments are terrible at quick feedback loops and generally benefit employees that can unblock themselves or know how to batch up blocked work. Almost every junior I've worked with picks these skills up just fine with time (it's part of the transition from junior to higher levels after all), but I believe that it's detrimental and a huge career drag without the initial fast feedback cycle. Most of the junior engineers I mentored when my last company went remote during the pandemic had a really hard time ramping up.

    7 votes
  14. [2]
    EnigmaNL
    Link
    Our current office building is an old building from the 70's, which is great. It still has loads of small offices where 1 or 2 people can work in, no open floor plan. Sadly the building is going...

    Our current office building is an old building from the 70's, which is great. It still has loads of small offices where 1 or 2 people can work in, no open floor plan. Sadly the building is going to get torn down and replaced with one of those modern open floor plan monstrosities.

    Open floor is one of the worst things ever to happen to office workers. I fucking hate it. I have ADHD and one of the problems I have is that I can't close myself off to the conversations of other people. When colleagues are talking about something that's even mildly interesting to me I automatically start listening, this not only makes me less productive but it's also very tiring (mentally). I prefer a smaller room where I can work alone or with one other collleague, I despise open floor.

    6 votes
    1. teaearlgraycold
      Link Parent
      The last place I worked gave people the option to work in a separate room, but most were in an open area. The separate room wouldn’t be your own, but you wouldn’t have more than 3 people in there...

      The last place I worked gave people the option to work in a separate room, but most were in an open area. The separate room wouldn’t be your own, but you wouldn’t have more than 3 people in there in practice. And you could easily face a wall if you wanted.

      Employers need to actually ask their employees about their preferred working environment and shape the office accordingly.

      3 votes
  15. vagueallusion
    Link
    I've never worked in a cramped cubicle office but I really miss my spacious open office with my sales/customer service team. No cubicles and only a small team of 8-10 but we can had enough space...

    I've never worked in a cramped cubicle office but I really miss my spacious open office with my sales/customer service team. No cubicles and only a small team of 8-10 but we can had enough space between us to not get cramped but still be able to communicate. It allowed me as manager to easily help when needed and have my team great camaraderie.

    When our company moved to a smaller building they gave us all individual offices I found our group cohesion took a nosedive and productivity became inconsistent. As for myself I did not fare well in solitary confinement. I found a new job since and now mostly work remotely for my home office. I still miss the camaraderie but at least I have the benefits of working from home including my hounddog napping nearby.

    I think maybe the real lesson is job satisfaction is greatly impacted by the environment we are in daily. It is not trivial and should not be optional. Too loud, too hot, too cramped, too isolated, all these things lead to unhappy employees and reduces efficiency and increases turnover. If companies made an effort to be accommodating and make the office comfortable maybe we wouldn't all hate it.
    Luckily there's a whole bunch of unused space for them to do it in.

    5 votes
  16. [2]
    Algernon_Asimov
    Link
    I had my annual job performance review this week. As I said to my manager (with whom I have a very good relationship; we hug "hello"), this is just paperwork for the sake of doing paperwork. But...

    Not open floor plans where people can hear every word, sneeze and gum-chew that comes from a co-worker’s mouth.

    I had my annual job performance review this week. As I said to my manager (with whom I have a very good relationship; we hug "hello"), this is just paperwork for the sake of doing paperwork. But she and I have to go through the motions, because her boss needs to see her doing her job.

    One of the sections of the performance review is for us employees to give feedback to the company, including a question "What should we STOP doing?" (as part of a K.I.S.S. matrix = Keep doing, Improve on, Start doing, Stop doing) The only answer I could think of, which I didn't write but did tell my manager, was: stop playing rap music in the office. The founder/CEO of the company (25 employees) is a fan of rap music, as are a few other employees, so some days the office soundtrack is a rap / hip-hop playlist. And that really shits me. I hate rap music. And I'm forced to listen to it when I go into the office. If there must be background music in the office, it should be a neutral boring inoffensive style of music. Sure, not everyone will like it, but we should avoid music styles that people will have strong negative feelings about in an environment where many people are listening to the same soundtrack.

    Luckily, I get to work from home some days, but I do work in the office some days - and it's not an environment I enjoy going to. Apart from the aforementioned rap music, there's also just the general noise that comes with jamming about 12-15 people into a single space with no separating walls (there are two offices: one for the CEO, one for the General Manager). Plus, every time someone cooks lunch for themselves, the whole office stinks of whatever food they just heated up.

    I like going in to see the people. I strongly believe that all white-collar workers should have at least some in-office time, to meet with their co-workers and build social bonds. That absolutely does improve working relationships and even increases productivity. That said, my manager and I both agree that we need our work-from-home days because we get more done on those days! So, a mix of in-office and at-home work gives the best of both worlds.

    But the office should be a conducive environment when I go in there. Some days I feel like my office environment is actively attacking me. Some days, I get out my own headphones, put them on, and plug into my own personal music choice, just so I can cope.

    4 votes
    1. RoyalHenOil
      Link Parent
      I'll go further than that. I don't think music belongs in most workplaces. I am a highly active listener to music. There is no such thing as "neutral boring inoffensive music" that I can ignore....

      I'll go further than that. I don't think music belongs in most workplaces.

      I am a highly active listener to music. There is no such thing as "neutral boring inoffensive music" that I can ignore. If music is playing, I'm paying attention to it, whether I want to or not. If it's music I dislike, I will be miserable; if it's music that I like, I will enjoy myself; if it's in between, I will have mixed feelings. But either way, my ability to focus on other tasks will be greatly reduced.

      I do listen to music when I, say, clean my house. It makes an otherwise boring task kind of fun. But I clean more slowly because of the music; it takes up a lot of my mental real estate. That's OK because it's only house work, and because I'm liable to not do it at all without music.

      But when I work on something more difficult (like the work I get paid for), I really need to work in silence. Any music whatsoever, even a distant thump from a neighbor's house, ruins my focus. The only "music" that doesn't do this to me are random or pattern-less noises, like birds singing.

      As such, I'm a big fan of just...letting employees listen to music privately if they want to. Then they get to listen to whatever they like, and people like me aren't disturbed. It just seems like the really obvious way to go.

      5 votes
  17. [2]
    SuperImprobable
    Link
    My company has exactly this right now. If you come in 3 days a week you get a dedicated office. Still more than half choose to WFH. I prefer to come in because I'm only 20 minutes away by car and...

    My company has exactly this right now. If you come in 3 days a week you get a dedicated office. Still more than half choose to WFH. I prefer to come in because I'm only 20 minutes away by car and I focus better in that isolated environment. The ones who don't come in tend to have longer commutes: they live farther away and some don't even own a car which at least doubles the time. Most days I don't see a single team member. Meetings are all online, even for those of us who came in. The exception being meetings with middle management who seem to mostly come in. So no, even if you give people a choice between coming in and getting an office and WFH, many will still choose to WFH.

    3 votes
    1. dhcrazy333
      Link Parent
      And honestly, this is the best of both worlds and the way it should be. Everyone works best in different environments. Having a dedicated office space for those who want to use it is important for...

      And honestly, this is the best of both worlds and the way it should be. Everyone works best in different environments. Having a dedicated office space for those who want to use it is important for those like yourself who are closer and work better in the office. But many people who live further away or prefer the ability to focus at home don't need the office and are more productive at home anyway, so allowing them to work remotely as they choose makes sense..

      4 votes
  18. [5]
    Eji1700
    Link
    I have a couple of views on this- More office environments need to stop paying people to micromanage or look for stupid optimizations. If you can set reasonable goals, and confirm your workers are...

    I have a couple of views on this-

    1. More office environments need to stop paying people to micromanage or look for stupid optimizations. If you can set reasonable goals, and confirm your workers are hitting them (a sadly dangerous precedent to set since it almost always spirals into shit), so long as they're not doing stupid shit you probably don't need to be looking over their shoulder. Letting people manage their own time/productivity makes the office a hell of a lot less oppressive, and often works better with the different types of workers (some people just grind away, others are bursty or like to juggle multiple things).

    2. For the love of god let people wear headphones if you're going to have open/cube plans. Being able to zone out on some tedius task and not be distracted because you're listening to music/audio books/podcasts/whatever helps moral/productivity so so much.

    3. All that said, there's still a ton of work that should be remote. While I do think there are major disadvantages to remote work in some cases, it doesn't change the fact that someone not having to commute and constantly being in their personal environment is such a huge moral/productivity factor.

    As always this almost always boils down to the same problems though. Tracking metrics is good, but tracking them without context is awful. If you expect 10 widgets a day, every day, then you get people who can probably do 20 half assing every day. If you give them some flexibility and allow them 5 or 2 some days they'll probably bust out 30-40 on good days. How you get offices that respect these concepts I have no idea.

    I'm also not so naive as to ignore the fact that the "grind them to dust and have an efficient churn" method sure as hell also works for certain tasks (for a given value of works), and is a lot easier to emulate.

    3 votes
    1. [4]
      avirse
      Link Parent
      This can really cut both ways - I've found that going into the office most mornings makes me far more productive and generally happier because I'm escaping the endless chore list of being at home....

      it doesn't change the fact that someone not having to commute and constantly being in their personal environment is such a huge moral/productivity factor.

      This can really cut both ways - I've found that going into the office most mornings makes me far more productive and generally happier because I'm escaping the endless chore list of being at home. It's great to be able to do housework in moments of downtime during the day, but it's also a huge, draining distraction to have thoughts like "I could be putting the laundry away right now" or "I could be prepping for dinner" or "I could just quickly run the hoover 'round" constantly running through your head.

      Much like it's common to solve problems or have great ideas in the shower because of the lack of distraction, it can be much easier to focus on work when in a purely work-oriented environment.

      4 votes
      1. [3]
        Eji1700
        Link Parent
        Oh absolutely. Depends a lot on your personal environment, but eliminating a commute is huge. Taking it to extremes like California where you routinely have oriole striving for 40 min to 2 hours,...

        Oh absolutely. Depends a lot on your personal environment, but eliminating a commute is huge. Taking it to extremes like California where you routinely have oriole striving for 40 min to 2 hours, how much chaos would you rather put up with to not have to do that?

        Now everyone has a different bar there but I think that’s one of the biggest hurdles for in office commute to overcome. Even if you’re looking for a place away from home I think things akin to wework would still be better

        1. tr4656
          Link Parent
          Yep, I really wished companies embraced the fact that people have different preferences and commute. I live in California and spend about 2 hours a day going to and from the office just to sit at...

          Yep, I really wished companies embraced the fact that people have different preferences and commute. I live in California and spend about 2 hours a day going to and from the office just to sit at my desk trying to block out of the noise generated from an open office.

          Meanwhile, some of my coworkers really don't mind and come into the office because they live 5 minutes away from the office and I wish companies embraced letting both happen.

          2 votes
        2. meff
          Link Parent
          This isn't a universal experience, even in California. Software engineers who seem to be the most passionate about this debate generally have the economic means to be picky about where they live....

          Taking it to extremes like California where you routinely have oriole striving for 40 min to 2 hours, how much chaos would you rather put up with to not have to do that?

          This isn't a universal experience, even in California. Software engineers who seem to be the most passionate about this debate generally have the economic means to be picky about where they live. My partner and I live in a place where we can do a 30 min biking commute, including 7 min on public transit, to our offices. By not doing that you're making a choice, and that's fine. But all else equal, if you prioritize other things over your commute, say space or suburban amenities, that's a signal that you don't really care that much about going to the office. There's nothing wrong with that but I think we need to acknowledge that if you put something lower in your basket of preferences then it's expected that you won't have an ideal outcome there.

          This does not apply if you just don't have the economic means to live close to your office which is an unfortunate reality in too much of the US because of our sprawly design.

          1 vote
  19. [5]
    tomf
    Link
    This is an HVAC nightmare.

    This is an HVAC nightmare.

    2 votes
    1. [4]
      ThrowdoBaggins
      Link Parent
      I’m curious why you say that, so I’d love you to elaborate your ideas if you’re willing? My understanding is that closed offices were the norm a few decades ago, and even now the building I’m in...

      I’m curious why you say that, so I’d love you to elaborate your ideas if you’re willing?

      My understanding is that closed offices were the norm a few decades ago, and even now the building I’m in (which hasn’t had the decor updated since the 90s) has vents every few feet. I could imagine building walls for small offices across the entire floor and not even needing to shift the existing vents, and every office would still have its own.

      3 votes
      1. [3]
        tomf
        Link Parent
        a lot of offices are gong-shows anyway with people having their own heaters. So one person is cold, pops on a heater -- their office gets hot, which tells the sensors and whatnot that the region...

        a lot of offices are gong-shows anyway with people having their own heaters. So one person is cold, pops on a heater -- their office gets hot, which tells the sensors and whatnot that the region is hot, so it stops heating that area. Others get cold, get their own heaters on... and it goes on loop...

        A lot (most) buildings aren't even built right to begin with, so the sensors are picking up readings from less-than-ideal locations, which is why you might find yourself in an office where one region is hot and the other is freezing, etc.

        There's a lot more to building an office than slapping up walls, though. Beyond HVAC, imagine they give you an 'office' but it doesn't look outside or anything... that's no way to live.

        4 votes
        1. [2]
          boxer_dogs_dance
          Link Parent
          If the option is a crowded noisy open room full of people, I will absolutely prefer the windowless office though. Especially if the windowless office offers a desk of my own with storage and the...

          If the option is a crowded noisy open room full of people, I will absolutely prefer the windowless office though. Especially if the windowless office offers a desk of my own with storage and the open room by contrast requires hot desking and carrying a backpack or briefcase full of supplies.

          3 votes
          1. tomf
            Link Parent
            yeah, but your office in this HVAC monkeys paw scenario will be either ice cold or blistering hot

            yeah, but your office in this HVAC monkeys paw scenario will be either ice cold or blistering hot

  20. [2]
    Loopdriver
    Link
    Where i work we have an hybrid model (more or less is 50/50) but you are allowed to work from home for long stretch of time as long you keep the quota along the year. I have seen that some people...

    Where i work we have an hybrid model (more or less is 50/50) but you are allowed to work from home for long stretch of time as long you keep the quota along the year.
    I have seen that some people do not like WFH and to the office almost everyday (for different reasons... usually personal) others, like me, tend to hoard the office days during winter so they are free for the other months (and if we could we wouldnt touch base at all).

    It's very hard to find a solution that satisfy everyone but I think that maybe there is some truth in the article. I hate to go to the office because I fell unconfortable there, i do not have a desk i can call mine, it is usually crowdy and noisy and if I want to concentrate i need to blast my ears with loud music.
    Should i have an office, a real one, it would be bearable but now it is like to work in the ikea cafeteria.

    I would like to add that it would be ok and even better to have a small group office... let's say 4 ppl. In this case i think mostvif the critics would vanish. A small group can be quiet, ppl tend to help and know each other more, ppl would really "network". I think you could get the best from working from the office without the downsides of the open office.

    2 votes
    1. Algernon_Asimov
      Link Parent
      For a couple of years, my manager and I shared an office, just the two of us. It was great. We had the chance to chat without disturbing other people, and that period has created a great working...

      I would like to add that it would be ok and even better to have a small group office... let's say 4 ppl.

      For a couple of years, my manager and I shared an office, just the two of us. It was great. We had the chance to chat without disturbing other people, and that period has created a great working relationship between us. However, we each respected the need to sometimes just shut up and get work done. (I would hate to share a small office with someone who can't shut up!)

      3 votes
  21. patience_limited
    (edited )
    Link
    Spouse and I had a discussion where he brought up a completely different take on WFH, that I don't think is obvious to many of the exceptionally online people here. It's an equity issue. Remember...

    Spouse and I had a discussion where he brought up a completely different take on WFH, that I don't think is obvious to many of the exceptionally online people here.

    It's an equity issue. Remember all those "essential" workers during the pandemic, who had no choice other than to show up for work because they had tasks requiring proximate physical labor?

    Spouse and I are both knowledge workers these days. He's been fully remote for 15 years, and I've had to work remotely from wherever I happened to be in the field for almost that long. But we've both been in positions where we deeply resented the privileged executive class who showed up in the office whenever they felt like it, and brazenly conducted "meetings" on golf courses and in bars.

    I can understand the issues of labor/management relations that might arise when the class of workers who make things, provide in-person services, or maintain the workplace don't have the liberty of choosing their work environment, while a new class of people who already avoid getting their hands dirty can now escape the unpaid commutes, dreary surroundings, and petty strife of sharing space with people you wouldn't choose to spend time with. [It's worth thinking about this in the analysis of right-wing resentment...]

    And having spent time in the back office spaces of a couple of newly designed and built hospitals, it's remarkable how tiny the open plan administrative spaces are by comparison with the hands-on workspaces for medical care. Even medical directors get broom-closet sized offices. I don't think this is unreasonable, given the ostensible purpose of the facility and the costs per square foot. Obviously, there's going to be variability by industry, yet companies that produce nothing but knowledge products still have physical infrastructure that's maintained by actual humans who must be present daily, and can't complete their tasks from a cozy chair.

    1 vote