Honest question: Why does everyone seem so hopeless and negative about life these days?
I know it's a very vague and subjective question. Maybe you don't think that's true, maybe the company you keep is different than the one I'm accustomed to. But having seen a little bit of 80s, most of the 90s and a good lot of 2000-10s, I am getting the feeling that most of the "current" folks (be they gen-z or millennial or those simply "stuck" in this timezone!) are just full of despair and pessimism, as if there is nothing to look forward to in life. Don't you feel that way?
And ironically, the times we are living in are much better than the 80s and 90s. Perhaps not in all aspects but overall, the quality of life and ease of living has certainly improved? There are a lot more opportunities today than earlier (to the one who is prepared to put that effort, of course). Needless to say, there are a lot of issues too, in fact we have also actively gone back in some areas. But those can be made better or fixed. If you consider the overall picture, the problems and issues we have today are nothing compared to the opportunities and resources we have, isn't it?
Is it the case that we are chasing perfection everywhere like a mirage water in a dessert that just keeps us running and running? Or is it the case that we have just forgotten to be happy or derive even that tiny bit of happiness from life? Think about it.
I talk about this in my circles quite a bit and personally I think I've landed on "expectations" as the main reason for the issues we see. I think of this most often when I talk to my parents. I'm going to go on a slight side tangent, but I think I need to in order to make my current feeling make sense.
Both of my parents grew up pretty poor, my dad in particular. He comes from a very working class background in England. He grew up in Birmingham when most of the employers were factories, smelters, and industrial plants. His dad died of Parkinson's when he was 13 and his mom worked at a factory/sold sandwiches at the pubs after work hours. He started working at 12 as a "bookies runner", effectively the one to take bets at events, and then worked into the trades around 16 (masonry and painting). He emigrated to the US illegally during the Thatcher years of pretty brutal, top down oppression of laborers in the UK in the 1970s/80s. He worked as a bus boy briefly and then made his way out west and got a job as a house painter. His coworkers had big houses, multiple cars, and luxuries like boats/motorcycles. This was pretty mind blowing to him, that blue collar laborers could achieve this level of comfort and wealth. In the meantime, my mom who grew up in a family of 10 had moved out to California with her family, went to college (when it was almost free to attend), and began working as a physical therapist. Both my mom and dad had what most people would call physical labor jobs and if we fast forward to the early 90s they had a sizable house in a good neighborhood, 2 cars, work for themselves, and have kids who didn't want for much. Fast forward another 10 years: they have divorced, separately own large houses in good neighborhoods, still work for themselves, my dad now owns a triplex and has 2 little rentals. Fast forward another 15 years: Their home values are now over 4 million dollars, my dad's rentals (only being 2 one bedroom apartments) now bring in over $7000 a month. There is an insane upward trajectory from their childhood to their adult life, one that was able to be made with normal jobs, under "normal" circumstances. More than that, things consistently improved, or at least the things we think of as external factors. They still may have had hard times at life, but I think it has far exceeded their expectations.
Now it comes back to me and folks in our generation. I grew up comfortable. I had parents that worked but made time to be around afterwork and on the weekends. I got to indulge in all kinds of hobbies and sports. I did fine in school and when it was discovered that I was dyslexic I got extra tutoring. When I went to university my parents paid the brunt of the cost and I was able to study aboard. By all measures I had a very well supported and easy childhood/adolescence. I graduated university a few years into the aftermath of the 2008 recession, when things were a little better but still pretty horrible for a new worker. I had friends who had graduated from Berkeley in 3 years with a degree in accounting and still struggled to find employment outside of temp agencies. I worked as an unpaid intern for 4 month before getting picked up as a full time salary position for less than I made lifeguarding at the time. At the same time rents are going through the roof, so even though I'm not living in a big city, the best I can afford is to share a one bedroom apartment with a good friend and pinch our pennies hard. Other friends just lived at home because they couldn't make ends meet. All of this ran backwards into what we had been taught in school and heard time and time again from our parents.
Fast forward 5 years, things aren't much better. I'm making almost double what I started on but rents have almost doubled so my disposable income hasn't changed much. I still haven't saved much money and most friends I have are in a similar boat. There are now a few exceptions, those whose parents gave them the money for a down payment on a house and used their income/credit to take out a loan. 2 friends are now home owners and renting out all of the rooms to make ends meet. But, they still own. Fast forward 5 more years, we're tickling 30 now and most folks in my circle are doing well career wise but still not "thriving". Most still rent, outside of those who went through IPOs, and many still don't have retirement or much savings. Rent's have continued to increase and wages have largely only increased with increased responsibility. The balance feels out of whack. Fast forward 5 more years, we're to today. During covid, low mortgage rates sent rents into an absolute rocketship to the moon. Those of us that didn't buy (the majority) are now renting at even more unreasonable levels and with the raising of interest rates home ownership is once again out of reach. We've worked for over 15 years and it doesn't feel like we have much to show for it.
This brings us back to expectations. My parents started pretty poor with low expectations. They worked hard though their life, but not unreasonably so and they were never the folks who excelled the most. The system worked for them and has provided them with a comfortable later life and retirement. They were able to set us up better than they had had it (at least on an individual level while they savaged the structural systems that allowed them to do so). They see it as having succeeded at life. On the other hand, we started quite high with high expectations. Our parents poured their hopes into us and made sure we could do as well as possible. We followed the trajectory set out for us and well, it's not working out as promised. Some of the boxes to check that should have been easy just aren't (owning a home, saving for retirement...). Some of the things we were told to want don't seem achievable or don't even seem to appealing anymore (having kids, getting married...). Many people see themselves putting in the same effort as their parents, or in many cases more effort, and aren't seeing the benefit or gains. And this leads to folks feeling disillusioned or hopeless.
I think some people will likely read what I read and say "yes, but if you just..." or "well, I just..." and yeah sure all of those things are valid. And maybe you joined the workforce before the 08 recession or maybe you worked in tech for a FAANG company or maybe you IPOed or maybe you just lived in a part of the country/world where explosive rents/mortgages have just caught up and you got in before the jump. Honestly I'm really happy for you. But the majority of us didn't and now we get to try to figure out how to make all of these things work. To feel frustrated at the hard labor put in, the frugal lifestyles lived, and well... not that much to show for it.
I don't think it's unreasonable for people to feel hopeless, particularly when older generations are throwing around the "no one wants to work anymore" bullshit. No Susan, no one can afford to live for 10 dollars a month! You haven't worked for 40 years, what the fuck are you talking about!!! It is enraging. I have friends who's parents say this kind of stuff to them. I hear it unending from the folks who come speak at municipal commission meetings. Meanwhile any positive change we try to make on low income housing projects, human centric infrastructure, or even municipal projects like skateparks get shouted down. Worst of all is when I have to share why I find all of this frustrating to my parents. To complain about not being able to afford a house when they had such a hard upbringing and gave me such a good one. To not sound like an entitled brat when I say it is a tough pill to swallow that a one bedroom apartment rents for over $3000 a month and the cheapest house for sale in the surrounding 100 miles is over $600,000.
And that's not even getting into depressing loss of biodiversity, the inclusion of new seasons like "fire season", extended droughts, an onslaught of images and takes from wars kicking off everywhere, to rising political tensions within families, to dealing with the medical fallout of a pandemic...
I think I tend to lead a pretty positive life. I work for myself at a thing I'm passionate about, I have an incredible partner and community, I'm able to engage in hobbies I love, I really like where I live, generally things are good. But even with all that I find myself falling into the mindset you're talking about and I just have to conclude that expectations were set when we were young and none of them are being met. That and being online makes it all 100x worse.
Question for you. Your father moved away because of unfavorable conditions, and landed in America where he, just taking the regular guy path, succeeded quite astonishingly (for millennial standards). What are your thoughts about North American kids moving abroad like your father did, especially (1) what factors go into leaving/staying and (2) where would we even go?
I'm interested because my father and his entire generation fled China for HK, and then we moved again further away from China. I fled Vancouver/Toronto for economic reasons. I have ever only known "you move when the pan gets hot," and would like to hear your viewpoint.
That's a great question. Honestly, I'm on the fence about it. I lived in Madrid and Amsterdam for a while, and as far as ease of life goes both were incredible. So much of my understanding for what social systems can look like and appreciation for urban design come from my time there. My partner and I often talk about moving to Munich, it's very similar to Amsterdam on the urban design front and she has some family in the area. So what stops us from doing it?
To some degree it's family. I have 2 aging divorced parents. I love my sister but she isn't the best at providing support when need (i.e. taking time off to help with recovery, helping with manual labor tasks around the house, making sure that they are set up with the various federal aid programs - medicare, social security, etc). I feel some combination of obligation to help them and also just want to. I currently live about 1.5 hours from one and 3 hours from the other so I can make things work as they pop up. Also, I'm still thinking about having kids and I would love for them to have a familial network nearby. I think community is one of the most important aspects of life and I'd like my own children to experience that.
The other motivation is I'd like to take the things I like about Amsterdam or Munich or Madrid and help them get implemented here. I really love my local community, it's a rare combination of folks and I'm really excited to do my part to shift the needle towards a happy, human centered community (not talking woo woo stuff, more like safe bikeways and access to cheap recreation). I joined my local planning commission and have been holding parties to get younger folks (less than 45) into local politics while reaching out to older folks who honestly would also benefit from the policies we're working towards (balance problems aren't just for kids!). And if I'm lucky enough for my own endeavors to work out and we can move the needle locally and things don't take a shit at the federal level then I'll probably stay.
But as you point out there is a much easier option out. Move. And I might. I think the common thread is that when things seem hopeless people move toward opportunity. If buying a home or raising a family with autonomy is out of the picture where I'm currently living then I'm hightailing it out of here.
Edit: A caveat here is that mobility is also very easy for me. I have UK citizenship on top of US and my partner is a US/German dual citizen so we have more choices. It's not as easy for folks who don't and I appreciate that.
Thank you for your answer. You're a resourceful person and will continue to be a valuable asset to wherever you choose to live. I am not a leader type but I would love it if someone else young in my community can do what you do, and I could join them.
Thanks! It means a lot that my experience has resonated with so many people, it's very validating. I'm not sure if you're still in Vancouver, or if you've moved away, but there are some really cool groups working to make housing more accessible and more community friendly. If you haven't checked out the youtube channel About Here I highly suggest it! The creator and host, Uytae Lee, highlights really interesting projects across the city and meaningful ways to get involved at a local level. I've actually been using a lot of the content he shares to make arguments for changes we want to see where I live. Might be a great opportunity to get involved!
Is there anywhere that a US citizen could emigrate to that would give actual socioeconomic benefits?
Most of Europe. The chance of having a comfortable life is much higher, while the chance of becoming a multi millionaire or even billionaire is much lower.
I'm going to be pretty transparent but I agree with @timo, most of Europe is pretty good. When we moved from US, be it from the Bay Area, to Madrid I was working at pretty niche non-profits. When I left I was making 55k a year and living in a 320 sq ft with my partner and was just barely making it. We landed in Madrid because I was offered a job, again because very niche industry, and I took a 40% pay cut to live there. However, with just my income we live comfortably in a 2 bedroom apartment in one of the nicest neighborhood (well, the one we wanted live in, think nice restaurants instead of Prada), we went out almost every night for dinner and drinks, and were able to save money. We moved because my partner couldn't find a job in Spain (it's a very hard job market) but the reasonable cost of living gave us a pretty phenomenal lifestyle.
One of the tricky parts of emigration is it can have a negative impact on locals. In our case we were paying higher than market rate for the apartment - raising rents in the neighborhood - and I was paid nearly 3 time what many of my Spanish counterparts were - as was often the case with English speaking employees where I worked. All of it gave me a very weird feeling and so when she was offered a job in Amsterdam we jumped at it. That and there were some very unsafe things about the work I was doing specifically because of the company I worked at, but the wage discrepancies were the most egregious.
All that to say, you can live a very nice life in Europe, particularly the southern countries, with a relatively low income.
I'm making over 4x what my parents did when they left college combined, yet I still can't afford to buy a home, start a family, or even have much fun. Inflation stole 25%+ of my salary in the last 5 years with almost no raises, housing prices even in the sticks of NC have more than doubled in the last 5 years, and to top it all off it seems like its impossible to meet someone I'd want to be in a long term relationship with these days.
Doing great!
To reinforce your points, even among those of us you mentioned who managed to do a bit better in e.g. saving up a little or buying a house, there’s a feeling of needing to engage in what prior generations might see as overpreparation before having kids. We might be doing ok today, but there's absolutely no guarantee that this will continue to be true — the rug could be pulled out from underneath us economically tomorrow and we’d have little recourse, which is an awful situation to try to raise a family through, and so starting a family gets delayed until as late as biologically advisable (if it happens at all) in effort to accumulate some amount of padding to help deal with that eventuality.
The only ones who get to dodge this are the select few who went through big IPOs or stock rallies and had the presence of mind and foresight to invest those gains wisely (e.g. moving to a low-to-moderate CoL area) rather than burning through them.
Blows my mind that, as recently (not so recent anymore) as the 1980s, it was possible to enter the US illegally and still settle down like that.
Of course, I'm looking at it in isolation though—maybe for each successful ICE-evader, there were ten or twenty others who got deported.
Actually my dad got deported for a quick stint. He married my mom and they went on their honeymoon to Australia. When he tried to reenter they said "You overstayed your visa by 7 years, you can't come back in!" He assumed now that he was married to an American it was fine. It took quite a bit of work and documentation proving they were together after he returned for it to all work out. Was a bit daft on his part for sure.
Ah okay, good to know.
Played out closer to my contemporary expectations then.
Have you seen the world?
When I was a kid in the 80s/90s the world was exciting and the tech revolution was just getting going and most people had no idea of the impending environmental disaster just over the horizon, people were electing progressive governments all over the place, things and food were cheap and so on. You could walk from school into a university, get a nice relaxed degree with no debt and walk out into a job where you were only expected to be available 9-5, five days a week, then afford a house to live in and holidays to go on and so on, before coasting into a nice retirement and all is well. Your boss made more money than you, sure, but they weren't making the kind of cash where they could spend their free time trying to go to freakin mars. Rich people were millionaires, not billionaires.
Literally none of that is true any more. Hopeless and negative seems like a perfectly sane response. The world is on fire and the people supposed to be sorting it out are instead arguing about who should go into which bathroom. The Kids should be fucking rioting in the street for the future that's been stolen from them.
In the 80's we still had the cold war and a sense of impending doom.
I think just going by how one feels about the world is vulnerable to the effects of media, as described in another comment. If I look around me, most of my friends are working in tech or science and doing really well, but that's not representative of the population. Let's look at some data on some of the items you mentioned. US only, since that's where I am.
Spending on food as a proportion of income has been pretty steady for a few decades now, but it was more expensive prior to the 90's Source
The percent of college graduates has nearly doubled since 1990. While there are issues with costs, education is definitely more accessible than in the past. Source
Working hours per worker have also not changed a ton over the past few decades, but they are also slightly down. Source
The current homeownership rate is higher than any other point prior to 1997. So despite issues with affordability and lack of supply, we have more people owning their own houses than before (aside from the real estate bubble of the 00's). Source
While there are plenty of challenges to solve, I don't think the world is on fire. There are perhaps some high profile nonsense issues, but moral panic has always been a thing in the US. The Pilgrims came here due to moral panic kinds of issues. As we go on, some things get a little better and some things get a little worse, but I honestly feel like the overall trend is slightly upwards.
Maybe it's because my parents and most of my friends' parents were immigrants, but I didn't grow up with a sense that my parents had it easy, and looking back I still don't feel like it was easier. Whenever I look at the stats, it seems to back this up. Maybe the "good old days" existed for a certain set of people, but they really did not for others. If more people are on equal footing these days, maybe it makes sense that some things are more competitive than they used to be. Maybe some of the things that seemed to be freely given were a privilege that not everyone got to experience, and it's a good thing that it's not that way anymore.
everyone agreed that the Cold War was real though, right?
everyone agreed that nuclear weapons existed and that both the US and Soviet Union had them in sufficient quantities to destroy all life on earth many times over?
and there was a relatively simple path to avoiding doom. you just needed the US and USSR to not fire ICBMs at each other. how you achieve that is the much thornier question, but at the end of the day there's just a handful of "launch" buttons and you need a handful of people to not press them.
so yes, there was a sense of impending doom, but there was also the possibility of hope. watch the celebrations from when the Berlin Wall fell, for example.
our current impending doom (climate change) seems rather different. we still have people denying that the problem even exists, and even more people pivoting to "soft denial" and saying OK maybe it exists but that doesn't mean we need to do anything about it.
also...remember that getting through the Cold War without a major nuclear exchange didn't just happen on its own. there were several near-misses (for example) that easily could have gone slightly differently and led to all-out nuclear war.
I'm not sure how relevant or meaningful a stat this is?
the Y-axis varies from 63% (in 1965 and 2016) to 69% (in 2004)
the current value (66%) seems to be...roughly the median of the entire time-series?
I have a 20-year-old nephew. he grew up here in Seattle. he has zero hope of ever owning a home in Seattle.
I'm going to see him at Christmas. if he says something doomer-ish, should I remind him that the last time the US home-ownership rate was this high was 6 years before he was born? do you think that will convince him?
Nationwide stats aren't relevant for housing costs in Seattle, so no, I wouldn't expect that to be convincing.
Having a good life after moving somewhere else is something people could be optimistic or pessimistic about.
I always see these posts used as an argument that people should be less angry now, but to my mind all it means that people should have been angrier then. People are more aware now of problems in the world, and they're upset about it. If they'd have been upset about it earlier, maybe things would be better now.
Well, I didn't say that this should make anyone less angry. That's not how emotions work. You basically said it yourself that these facts wouldn't make anyone less angry. However, it seems that whenever people are asked why they're angry, they start stating falsehoods as if they're facts. Just hoping to bring some awareness that some of the doomer ideas that are being spread are based in feelings, not reality. So why might this be? I think it's probably some combination of clickbait/targeted media and the fact that people don't go out and touch grass enough or have enough community to counteract some of these feelings. In cartoons or tv shows sometimes there's a crazy hermit character in the neighborhood that had conspiracy theories because they never talked to anyone and just consumed one type of media. We all laughed at that guy, but now we're kind of all trending towards being that hermit.
I don't know if "aware" is quite the right word, since it seems like a lot of people are thinking that things used to be better when they weren't. Maybe "focused" would be better. I think it's great to see the problems around you and want to change the world. I just think it's a conservative and anti-science mindset to assume that things were better while dismissing the data. Like I said, there are plenty of problems to work on. I just want progressive ideas, not regressive ideas.
And what I'm saying is that if people in the past had been as informed and able to communicate with others in the way that we are now, they would likely be as angry or angrier than people are now. People aren't too angry, they don't need to "touch grass," and it's not anti-science to understand their community's lived experience as lesser than what they've been taught the past has been. In fact, it seems obvious to me that people aren't angry enough, because things aren't changing.
Nothing that anyone has suggested in this thread as solutions to any of the perceived problems is regressive, and trying to paint people who are unsatisfied with the state of their country and world as conservative (negative) and anti-science makes me extremely skeptical of the idea that you're looking for "progressive ideas."
Have you heard that old saying, As you sow, so shall you reap?.
The "free markets capitalism" was the path that earlier generation chose for economic growth and development. They didn't choose socialism or even a mixed economy with checks and balances. The American way is the way of Capitalism, where else do you think this was all going to lead? What's happening now is just the scaling effect, the foundations of that were laid many decades earlier.
OK, but the people you see being depressed and miserable didn't sow anything, they're just reaping. Which I'd say explains why they feel that way.
So what am I, a person developed into all forms of agency well after all this was set in stone, supposed to sow here?
I don't disagree. Although I'm not American, nor did I get to choose the economic route of my country. Every vote I've ever cast has been against the system you're talking about.
I feel like people are starting to fight each other in desperation over the limited resources left to them by inequality. It's also fueling intolerance because people need enough for themselves before they start caring for others. Desperate people tend to try to get what they need from other people.
In Mad Men, there's a scene where an executive who's fallen on hard times wants to take money from the firm in the form of a bonus. One of his arguments is the firm has been struggling financially for several years, and they've been "asking our employees to go without bonuses for several years now", which he says isn't fair.
Of course, he doesn't actually care. He's in his own financial straits, and needs money. The prior years, he wasn't arguing for the employees not receiving a bonus; that was their problem. This is his, and the firm should help him out.
The other executives decide it is, in fact, not fair to again pull the Christmas bonus for the rank and file. They say only the top level won't get bonuses, but their employees should because it's deserved.
No version of that conversation happens anywhere in America. Even in the 60s it wasn't really happening, and that was back when companies did sometimes give out a yearly bonus. Around the 70s, it stopped. Now, who gets a bonus? That's not a thing, hasn't been for decades.
Executives get bonuses. Not you and me. Not ordinary workers. Top levels get well paid, and then handed a lump sum on top of it, along with stock options, company car, paid vacation time, paid healthcare, and all the peons to abuse they might desire. And some companies still find yet more stuff to give their top levels, all while somehow never having anything for the actual workforce that makes it all possible.
Ordinary workers are told to tighten their belts and work harder, and that they should be thankful they even have a (poorly paid) job as it is. Now back to work.
It's not just the bonuses. Or rent. Or wages. Or prices. Or inflation. Or no healthcare.
It's not the cops who abuse their power and beat or kill anyone they want without consequences. It's not the politicians who abuse their offices without consequences, even to the point of inciting insurrection or openly inside trading. It's not how the government snaps into action at light speed to save industries and bail out the rich while allowing millions of ordinary citizens to go without.
It's not the environment, and how all these supposed laws and rules that safeguard it are routinely ignored without punishment. It's not how market manipulation in every sector seems to always benefit the wealthy, and punish the merely ordinary. It's not even that no matter how hard you work you won't get ahead, because the goalposts move at "the speed of business" which is never in reach of you and me.
It's all of that, and hundreds of things I didn't even list.
It's all of it. And the all of it keeps getting bigger. Is always more. However bad things are, however shitty the deal is now, they keep making it worse.
The deal (in America) used to be very, very simple. Clear. Honest. Straightforward.
Fair.
Work hard, put in your time, and you will succeed. You will not starve, be homeless, be without clothes on your back or food in your pantry. You will have opportunity to advance ... as long as you work hard.
Who doesn't work hard? The wealthy. A few of them, here and there, might qualify as "working hard." But it's not the same kind of "hard" when you're living on seven and eight figures (or more) in your bank accounts (plural).
It's not the same kind of hard as someone who spends twelve hours a day working one and a half, sometimes two or more jobs. Who spends that time at their jobs being browbeaten and manipulated by supervisors who literally have the power to ruin that employee's whole life, and know it.
It's not the same kind of hard when you're spending two or more hours a day commuting, and every minute of that commute costs you money and sucks away free time you might use to recharge your soul.
It's not the same kind of hard as when regardless of how hard you're working, how many hours you put in, you're always wondering which stuff you won't pay this month. Wondering why you can't afford a semi-decent place to live, in a reasonable neighborhood that isn't far, far away from your job. Wondering why every year the bills get bigger, but your pay never does.
It's not the same kind of hard when you spend most waking moments praying for no injury or illness, because you know it'll wipe you completely out. When you're told no raise, again. When how the discovery of a pregnancy isn't cause for celebration, but abject terror at how much it's going to cost just to get the kid home? Or how The State is going to kick down your door and let cops arrest you after a beating because you realized an abortion was cheaper than ending up on the street begging for handouts since the hospital wanted more for the delivery than you'll make this year and next combined.
The deal used to be very simple. It was fair and honest and decent. Work hard and you'll succeed. The lazy, those are who fail at life. Those who aren't willing to try, who won't put in the time, who never sweat for it ... those are the folks who end up homeless and destitute. Not the ordinary honest folks like you and me, who are putting in those hours.
For decades the wealthy in America (and many (most?) countries) have taken and taken and taken. Wages don't go up anymore. Prices do, but wages don't. Promotions don't come with financial reward; they just dump still more work on you. There's no time off because no employer offers it (or any other benefits) anymore, and no one can afford to go two weeks without working anyway. Much less afford to travel.
You open the news and read about today's handful of killer cops just ... walking. Again. Still. The same as the ones yesterday did, the ones last week, last month, last year, last decade. All of them always walk. They shoot or brutalize anyone they lay eyes on and no one stops them, and they basically never see the inside of a courtroom because of it. Politicians don't care; if they did they'd do something.
Like they keep doing with corporate bailouts. When the airlines or banks face an unprofitable year, suddenly Congress can act and the President gets involved.
When railroad workers aren't allowed to have any sort of life and threaten to strike just for some *basic control over their weekly schedules that's out of bound and illegal and suddenly there's laws in play threatening consequences. But the companies that are working their employees eighty or a hundred hours a week and not even giving them time off for the doctor, much less routine life things like, oh, having a family ... no that's legal and employees should shut the fuck up.
People hear about injustices all the time. And you think "sue them." Company fucked you over, or lied, or won't honor a contract, or whatever it is that's costing you money you don't have or is doing you real harm you can't manage on your own ... that's what the legal system is for. Right?
Except laws are for the wealthy. The system is designed that way on purpose. To keep it out of reach of you and me. We have all the justice you can afford in our Justice System. It just costs cash.
You can't walk into court without a lawyer. You have to pony up to even have your day in court. Which will take years, while your lawyer keeps billing you. And there's no guarantee you get anything. Especially not when the company can afford better lawyers, more lawyers, a fully funded court case that nickles and dimes you out of any hope of getting a verdict in your favor.
Everything in life is locked behind money. And you can't make any. It's not about how hard you're willing to work; there's no money being dealt out by those who have it. They keep it, and begrudge parting with any of it for the workers who make it all possible, and whine about how entitled the plebs are for not sucking it up and keeping our noses on the grindstone.
Optimists are either rich, or don't open their eyes. Those are the only two options. The vast majority of people are workers. There are only so many businesses that can be started. A city, even a country, can only support so many. We see how few every day, when your friend who manage to save up to open a restaurant closes for good, or the guy who bought a truck for hauling or towing has to sell it because he's not getting enough customers.
There's only so many trinkets or gizmos or whatever you can hustle up and sell online after hours to your fellow workers, and they can't afford that many anyway because they're trying to sell you shit because they're broke too..
The money is all at the top. And the fuckers really, truly, honestly don't believe there's a limit to how much they can take. That there, just maybe, might be a line where the ordinary citizens can be pushed past that'll make them snap.
The cynicism is a symptom of how close we're getting to that line. For a time, I thought maybe the George Floyd thing might be a trigger. But no, the government from local all the way up to federal all got very alarmed at the citizens rising up, and let the cops wade in with billy clubs and rubber bullets and thanked them for doing so. I saw so many videos of police brutality during those protests, of people being crippled and terrorized, and those cops aren't behind bars while those they assaulted live in pain and fear.
You see shit like that, and I ask how can you not be a realist. It's not cynical to be honest. And the truth is America is an oligarchy.
Politicians get themselves elected and start dipping into the waiting pockets of the wealthy. The "wrong" candidates try to run, and suddenly the party and donors rise up to crowd them out, shuffle them aside, so the wheels keep turning the way the wealthy want.
The ones anointed to the offices never, never, never do jack shit to help actual citizens. Just companies. Just big shots. Someone with eight or nine or ten digits on the left of the decimal in their their personal bank accounts picks up the phone and sends their wishes through the chain (lobbyists, interest groups, PACs, more) to the Congressional offices.
Those wishes get acted upon.
But the people pleading for healthcare, rent relief, for justice, for better police, for access to a basic life, for anything that helps the average folks ... somehow none of that ever, ever, ever gets acted upon.
It's always too hard. Not the right time. Costs more than we can spend. It's complicated. Messy. Just suck it up citizen, and go back to work.
There are limits. We're just not at them yet. But even with how government, the wealthy, and corporations have seized upon social media as a new and powerful way to manage the citizens, there is a limit. A breaking point.
They very much want to keep distracting everyone with social concerns. They want you fighting over things that really don't impact the bottom line. The financial bottom line. If you're arguing over gender roles, bathroom access, marriage rights, anything like that ... you're not gathering support for better wages, healthcare, lower rent, more benefits.
You won't be rising up to demand a better life.
But there is a line that we're getting closer to crossing. At some point, people will have enough. All the shootings and road rages and Karens and the rest of it, those are symptoms. It's not that people are bigger assholes, it's that everyone's more stressed. Some of us snap early and take it out on whoever we can get our hands on. Which the wealthy and politicians are fine with, because it's us going after each other.
Not them.
When they've taken everything, what's left? Reality. Not cynicism, but basic facts.
Something like "executives get bonuses, not the rank and file" is not a basic fact, or a fact at all. It's a broad generalization, too broad to meaningfully grapple with. Who gets bonuses varies by industry. Companies aren't all the same either.
You're also making a broad historical comparison to previous times that were supposedly more simple and more fair. It seems more like an ambitious thesis than a simple fact?
Consider that Mad Men is fiction. I'm not an expert either, but it seems like the railroad barons and the oil monopolists were every bit as greedy as modern billionaires, and they were operating with far fewer regulations. Unionization happened for good reasons.
I'm not going to argue point by point, but I think it would be better to turn these "simple facts" into questions. If you're curious about history, maybe read more history?
Yes, this didn't resonate with me at all. I'm based in Ireland so ymmv but for any job where a college education is a prerequisite to entry (pharma, finance, engineering etc.) bonuses are the norm across all levels.
Counterpoint:
I have a friend, whom was almost solely responsible for pulling in and executing a $15 million dollar engineering contract, with over 20% margin. $3 million in pure profit.
He asked for a $40,000 bonus using that sale as justification. The owner of the company said they couldn't because times were tough, and bought a new $150,000 Corvette less than three months later. My friend checked out and now doesn't do anything that's not explicitly listed in his job description.
That's a good story and I don't doubt that there are other greedy business owners, but it's quite a jump from there to "life is hopeless." I think it's a good reason to look for a job somewhere else.
"Why are you hopeless?" and "is hopelessness the objectively rational reaction to our reality?" are not as synonymous as you are acting throughout this thread.
I don’t think they’re synonymous, but I do think there’s a difference between explaining why you feel unhappy and advocating for pessimism — that is, arguing that there are objective reasons why we are living in unusually dystopian times. It seems like it’s no longer just a personal view at that point?
Yea, except that might mean uprooting your kids from all their friends. Or having to commute 2 hours to the next nearest job. Not everyone lives in a big city where there could be 200 job openings for their job title at any time.
And this is just one direct ancedote in my social circle. There's probably hundreds of people here that could share similar tales.
And isn't it kind of dystopian that any sort of job dissatisfaction basically only has one option anymore: Search for a different job, and potentially uproot any stability to do so.
And since your employers are also now your healthcare providers things get even more complicated. You gonna risk switching to a different health insurance company if you're halfway through an expensive medical treatment?
I think that there are good reasons for people to feel unhappy and that’s always been true. There are always poor people and sick people. There are people losing their jobs, going though nasty divorces, dying of cancer. There are widows and orphans. Hundreds of thousands die of malaria each year. Also, everyone dies eventually.
Does that mean you should feel depressed if it’s not you going through hard times? Are we callous or unfeeling if we don’t think depression should be contagious?
It seems like by coming up with examples of why other people, perhaps even people you know, might justifiably be unhappy or feel trapped in a bad situation, you’re redefining dystopian as “not a utopia.”
God, this depressed me to no end. Beautiful writing, but I really wish it was pure fiction.
I was with you completely until this bit:
This was only true for a small portion of the past 200 years, and even then it only applied to certain segments of the population. The gilded age, the robber barons, the depression, Jim Crow…these were all the complete and total opposite of “if you work hard you will succeed, and you will not go without.”
From my vantage point that was sort of true for mostly white people from the ~1930s to the ~1970s, and that’s it.
I mean, don't forget the homestead act, which basically just gave white people a bunch of stolen land for free.
I'm the poster child that conservatives drool over when it comes to "pulling yourself by your bootstraps," and I absolutely HATE it. Lacked family support, struggled in low wage jobs, managed to go back to school, and then land a career that has a given me a salary that I never imagined I could have.
The misery comes from the realization that it shouldn't have been that hard. Why am I the one that managed to make it while so many others can't and struggle? It's recognition that the rules and faverability of this cursed game of Capatilism relies on so much luck and who you're lucky enough to know. That even after doing all of the "right things" the bottom can fall out at any moment. Loyalty and empathy are things of the past only alive on PBS. Corporate America wants none of those silly things if you want to keep your job and not loose your insurance. Being cut throat, abusing workers, caring more if a feature is delivered instead of checking if the actual developer is OK after their country has suffered a natural disaster; these are behaviors rewarded in our current state of things. If you're a decent person with any heart, this is the stuff that breaks you and makes you disillusioned to it all.
The terms and agreements of society have been a ruse or have been changed. Little people like you and I are still stuck with that ToS while others get special rules catered to them because of their ridiculous wealth or sociatel status. No amount of stoicism and radical acceptance is going to make that frustrating recognition go away. I struggle to put it all in words, but I'll let Marina handle that.
This hits hard:
Coming from a pretty privileged upper middle class background, I was pretty oblivious through undergrad and grad school. Between the Trump election and George Floyd's murder, I became a lot more aware of the problems in the world. I feel like every time I turn over a rock, I find a rotting corpse underneath. Capitalism. Christian nationalism. Racism. Climate change. Corruption and grift in politics and business. I know most of this is not new to people who were paying attention, but it was new to me, and now I feel competely overwhelmed.
A lot of these things are things that I was socialized growing up to think of as good and American, or at least, not as big a problem as they actually are. So seeing the rotten underbelly unmoors me from things that were core to my identity. I'm left wondering if any of it is any good, or if it was always all terrible, and I just didn't see it. I'm left wondering who I am if I leave a those things behind.
To top that off, I am very unsatisfied with what I have found to try to make a difference. In the face of so much, it's hard to figure out what to focus on. And then it's overwhelming to figure out what (if anything) can actually move the needle. So I just feel tired and cynical and ineffective and hopeless.
I know how you feel. I found that doing direct action, like Food Not Bombs, made me feel a bit less helpless.
Thank you!
I'm going to plug One Simple Wish since it's one of my favorite foundations that attempts to make an impact. I had a rough childhood and if I'm able to donate money to a child in foster care, maybe they can find a little bit of joy or peace in their lives through my efforts there.
Thank you!
Apologies if I'm repeating someone, lots of great points but I didn't read all of every post.
One thing that maybe hasn't been mentioned is social expectations. It's more ok to share vulnerable feelings than I think it's ever been.
In previous generations you were expected to deal with your shit in private. You didn't even deal with it then if you could help it, you just put your head down and carried on.
I'm generalizing of course, people have been sharing their feelings forever, but the overall social expectations are changing. Which I think is a really good thing, not only being vulnerable, but the processing and introspection that comes with it. To be healthy, modern society needs a much higher level of emotional intelligence than we needed in the past.
Digital communication makes it incredibly easy to talk about your discontent to a wide audience, and get validation for it. I think that has accelerated the change. Arguably to the point that it's sometimes more like rumination than growth. That happens though, in the early stages of personal (or societal) change.
Did anyone mention the decline of religion? Or the decline of traditional community? I think another reason for the discontent is that we've moved on from a lot of historically important sources of meaning and belonging without yet coming up with good replacements.
Maybe ‘cause one of the presidential candidates in this country is going around saying Nazi quotes every week or two, and it seems like it’s more or less being accepted?
Most people are tired. Most people don't see justice. We work 40 hours a week (or more), being more productive than we were in the past, while ending up with less earning power. Social safety nets, at least in America, are eroding, if they ever even existed in the first place. Politics has become even more and more divisive. Many people are literally just trying to survive.
"Get involved in local politics" is sometimes suggested. Okay, where are people supposed to fit that in between their 40 hour jobs, their commutes, their children (if they found the energy and money to have any), their time to cook (if they have any time or energy to cook as opposite buying some unhealthy fast food that makes their body feel terrible and doesn't provide enough nutrients), their time to clean and do household labor, their time to socialize or spend time doing hobbies?
And then even after one manages to get through all that, trying to make a meaningful positive change in the world, even in their own local area, is wrapped behind multiple layers of bureaucratic bullshit.
I feel there is a deep systemic sickness in society. I honestly don't like being nihilistic, but feigning shock at how pessimistic people are in our current day and age is naive.
Born in 84. I was entering public school with the fall of the Berlin Wall. The big bad USSR which has been the defacto bad guy of the prior 50+ years was dead. A lot of people were riding high off of Reagan, and the consequences of their and Carter's policies were still a ways off. Pair that with the rise of personal computing, there was this air of optimism and peace up until about the mid 90's. There were setbacks...but like there was progress towards peace between Palestine and Israel. The fall of Bell, resulted in unprecedented competition in the telecom sector, fueling both the vibrant dialup ISPs, as well as the rise of cellphones. Computers were being generationally leaped every 6 months....the kind of generational leaps we might see every 4-5 years now.
But the fall of optimism had many factors, and I'll expound on some I haven't seen others touch yet.
There was the sexual assualts of Clinton which fueled the rise and dominance of the right wing media. The alt-right disinformation of today was born of this.
Local media, including newspapers, tv, ISPs, and radio slowly but surly started getting gobbled up into monopolies we know and hate today. The vibrant innovation spawned by this intense competition dissolved as all slowly consumed back into the megacorps. Microsoft, more than any other company, yanked the teeth out of antitrust, and we're seeing the result.
Columbine happened while I was in middle school. This was our first major collective trauma. Our parents started becoming more and more protective. The helicopter parents of today were born of the collective trauma from this. Metal detectors and permanent police officers started being installed schools everywhere. School shootings to continued to get more frequent, and lockdowns get harder and now kids have active shooter drills.
Somewhat on topic, in the 80's, they shuttered the doors of many mental institutions. They didn't help the patients, they thrust them out into the world and said 'good luck'. A lot of the problems with mentally unwell homeless can trace their roots at killing off of this part of the social safety ladder. And medical insurance (and thus many's access to care) has been a perpetual slide downhill, with the main reprieve coming out of the ACA banning discrimination for pre-existing conditions...anyhow...
The dotcom bubble burst. In sheer terms of deflating the enthusiasm for the PC revolution, it was unprecidented. It was a bubble of layperson speculative investment that crypto pales in comparison to. Much of what might have been sustainable businesses got caught up, and the entire economy faultered, and marks when the net really started becoming less fun, weird, and quirky and more corporate and safe.
Bush 2 stole the 2000 election. We were pretty sure at the time, but it was confirmed later. Gore might hve only been a 1-term president, because he was a very boring man, and he told the hard truth. But he would have almost certainly put us on a better path.
But then there's the big one... 9/11. An entire generation of students watched as the towers fell on live TV. The nationalism (and bad policy fueled by it) was immense. I won't pontificate on it much more, but when the words "War on Terror" were first uttered, it invoked both feelings of both War on Drugs, as well as "Welcome to the new foreverwar."
Then, as things "returned to normal", us 2006+ college grads finally getting our first real jobs in the workplace, and things finally started looking up with Obama's election, the 2008 crash cuts so many of us loose. Junior staffers were almost always first on the chopping block. That banking crisis easily set many of us in our 20s back 10 years. Whenever studies arise that find Millenials are so much poorer than their parents at the same age... that's why. College grads were flipping burgers trying to make ends meet when the jobs dried up.
We got to see all the policy changes. It's really demoralizing seeing people 30 years older than you getting to retire with full pensions and medical benefits...and you get a 2% match on your salary you have to deduct from to save for your retirement.
People aren't retiring. Those whom were closest to the cutoff from the pensions...they don't have enough to live on in part due to the accompanying social security cuts. So they're holding on to their senior positions into their 70's. Further locking out people lower on the totem pole from getting a piece of the pie. I don't fault them, so much as the system for failing them.
And climate change is perpetually getting worse. We feel powerless to stop it. And Mother nature is gonna be even less forgiving than the world leaders about destroying our civilization.
I think a large part stems from our online interactions. Just like reviews, you're more likely to voice discontent than to praise what makes us happy.
I've always noticed that online forums where there's not a common goal (such as me posting a Jeep related question on Jeep Forum) there will frequently be a touch of pessimism and hopelessness. In my opinion part of that stems from the fact that we are all incredibly diverse individuals and there will not be a "one-fit" solution for many issues. Hell, right now one of the top threads is discussing Europe being against larger cars, and the majority of people are trying to advocate against large cars outside of Europe, despite other users making very valid arguments as to why they prefer a large car in their life. The issue though, is that the "anti-SUV" crowd don't really understand where the "pro-SUV" crowd are coming from and instead keep trying to make points against them
I think we just need to recognize that everyone lives a different life and your solution may not be the best solution for them. Yeah there are some situations where you should still press and pursue a conversation if it closely aligns with your values, but the overwhelming majority of things in my opinion are simply not that important
For context I was born in the early 90's and overall have a pretty positive, healthy minded friend group, so my observations are simply from what I've experienced online (where I encounter most negativity lol)
I think what your proposing as the cause is like a chicken-and-the-egg scenario in regards to what others have commented here, namely a hopeless lack of solutions (or effort to enact them) to the numerous existential problems we’re facing.
What I mean is: in our current situation, the mediums in which we discuss and attempt to resolve these problems are highly controlled. Controlled by stake-holders who stand to lose power/money/influence as a result of these problems being resolved. And so they prioritize the visibility of the voices simply wallowing in that hopelessness.
So you think that’s why so much discourse online is negative?
I would think that leads to revolt, ergo the stakeholders would have an incentive to at least appease the masses
I don’t think that’s the only reason, there’s also the popular idea that anger and fear drive engagement better than hope.
But to your point I think it’s a big reason why we haven’t seen a revolt. Seeing an overwhelming sense of defeatism amongst one’s peers makes one feel like they’d be alone if they wanted to make a difference.
Not to take this on a side tangent, but I think this is a common problem for a reason. I'm using the pro-SUV as an example but it could be anything from discussions on food (i.e. the hot debate tildes had on what makes for "good food") to housing to well anything really. It's harder to be the proponent of change than the proponent of same. I think when you're steeped in a culture, and in the US that is big SUV car culture, you know most of the pros because you live it. You know it is more comfortable to drive an SUV than take BART. You know why people want one: carrying a large family, going to the mountains, carrying sporting equipment. None of those answers are novel if you live our system day to day. And this is coming from someone who lives in a SUV household!
I think what's missing is an understanding from the folks in the dominant position that the people advocating for change not only don't get what they want (we still live in the SUV dream), but they get this pushback in their day to day life as well.
When's the last time you drove and a 4" grasshopper smashed into your windshield while you were driving and you had to pull over to clean it off cause you couldn't see?
That used to be a weekly occurance circa 1999 driving anywhere where there were more trees than people. I haven't found a grasshopper longer than an inch in years.
When I was growing up in rural PA in the early 90's, July nights would have thousands upon thousands of fireflies in fields. You could get them to flash in unison if you had a flashlight and a white sheet.
Visiting home again circa 2013, I saw maybe a few hundred. It was depressing as hell.
It really depends where you live and who you are. To an extent, I agree with @SirNut that the Internet tends to amplify these sentiments - for example, I've seen quite a few young people being worried about issues that don't apply to them at all, but they hear about them from their peers in the US. Knowing that things are bad around the world naturally makes people more worried, I'd say.
But also, everyone with half a brain can see that on average, our generations have it worse. My grandparents retired at 50; an accountant and a textile worker, they paid for or helped build a house for each of their three children. My parents at my age had built a house with two below-average salaries and no mortgage; I'm well paid for my country's standards and I own a tiny studio, and even this is considered very lucky and an unachievable feat for many. Many of my former classmates had to move in with their parents and, as a rule, are underemployed. I'm talking about people with masters degrees stuck in retail positions, because there's a lack of entry level jobs and the older you get, the harder it is to pivot to a different field. There's a rise in deeply hateful politics that we can only do a limited amount against, and we've been watching our whole lives how nothing is being done about global warming. As a woman, I see my peers in the US have their rights trampled on in ways that seemed unimaginable for most of my life.
I'd generally consider myself a content person who's not too worried about the world, partly because I am lucky enough to be in a secure position in life right now. Now imagine how people who are worse off than I am must feel. The guy who's been trying to move out of his parents' house since he graduated, and after years of work almost had enough to put down a deposit, only to see the housing prices rise to the sky post-covid. The aforementioned friend who is working a retail job and living with roommates because she's earning minimum salary that doesn't get adjusted for inflation, which was 10% last year. The thing is - housing, wages, lack of entry level jobs, these have all been problems since the 2008 recession. It's now 15 years later and it's clear that no one is doing anything about it, and that we're on our own, with everything stacked against us. It's very easy, and completely understandable, to feel pessimistic and depressed about the world in these circumstances.
Personally, I think it's a combination of two factors.
The first is... well, are you familiar with the phrase "Ignorance is bliss"? We're in the information age, and everyone is more connected than ever. But it becomes a double-edged sword: on one hand, we now have the power to call out any BS and activism is on the rise. But on the other hand... we also KNOW there's so much bullshit in the world. Go back to before the Internet, and while things still made the news... you had to be watching a news program at a particular time to learn about Bad Shit. There was no social media, and the 24hr news cycle was still very new. People still got together in person more, and you learned what to say or not to say. So someone might hear something terrible, but they might decide to not spread the news if no one else was talking about it... or you might say a little, but then move on. Now, we're constantly latching onto Bad News for conversation and spreading it around.
The second is Survivor Bias. The people who the Bad News affected? Sure, they might try to do something about it... but if they don't have the means to actually combat it and fail, then you're not going to to hear about the issue. Meanwhile, people who issues may not have affected so much? They're the ones who are more likely to have kept going on with life, and to them everything seemed "fine". Which is why they will tell you older times seemed great and now it's a giant shitshow- it goes back to the ignorance bit, as they weren't aware of the issues back then but are forced to hear about them now.
I would also add in the ruling that you only ever seem to hear about online, and never in person. Granted, I was out of high school when it happened, and the government classes I did take were few and far between in college. That is, Citizens United. It seems to be the piece of legislation that messed up America the most. It basically says that corporations can donate money as if they were a normal person. It may seem to be a mostly political ruling (I think it's closer to, corporations are allowed to contribute to a candidate's fund), but it had a HUGE ripple effect. This is what caused major corporations to realize that the more money they had, the more influence they would wield over people. Specifically for news organizations, they make more money off more people watching them. So find a way to get as many people to watch your channel... well, they discovered that the best way to do this was to run news shows that would make people Angry (old Primate Brain effect- the brain's top priority is to survive, so it wants to protect itself. Show something that makes you angry and afraid, and the brain will dedicate more energy to figuring out how to protect itself from these dangers). One corporation is the most guilty of doing this, but others followed suit in order to get more money and power.
I can't compare to previous decades, since I've only known the 2000-2020s, but it's a bleak time. Sure, the big problems aren't new: war, economic hardship, environmental destruction, and social intolerance, but now I hear about every problem. Things that likely wouldn't have been on my radar are in my Instagram reels or in my notifications. Floods, attacks, fires, etc.
On top of the societal woes, I'm living paycheck to paycheck working two jobs. I'm watching what I thought were basic rights be undone. I go back to my hometown wearing a mask to appease my conservative family and neighbors; I come back to the city and fall in love with people who move across the country for work within two years -- if you don't job hop, inflation will outpace your salary.
The world is better connected than it's ever been; life feels lonelier than ever before. Love is easy to find, but it comes prepackaged with an expiration date. Money is losing value; wealth is out of reach.
I have lived in my house for over 25 years. It is in a semi-rural area of the desert southwest US. I have 2 acres with water rights (irrigation via acequia), and well water. One of the things I loved when I first moved here was how much nature there was. Over time, I have watched this disappear. The summer used to be filled with butterflies. This past summer, most days I didn't even see one. I have swallows that nest on my porch. Three years ago, an entire nest of babies died due to extreme heat. For the past two years, I have kept them alive by opening a picture window to the porch so my swamp cooler will cool the porch enough. This has worked for my swallows, but what about all the others? Several years ago, we had a "die-off" event due to sudden extreme cold in early September (that also killed off a batch of swallows). Among the birds I lost were a local breeding pair of yellow-rumped warblers. I have not seen any since. This all despite the fact that I have spend 25 years adding native plants to my landscape to feed the local wildlife, keep my cats indoors and garden organically. The only improvement I have seen is a steadily growing hummingbird population, but I don't know if I see more here because there is less food for them elsewhere.
The irrigation authority has been steadily cutting back on water use because there simply isn't enough--we've been in drought for years. Fields are fallow, drying out and dust storms are more common. The guys who put in my new well pump say I've got maybe 10 years left on my well, because the water table is dropping fast. Meanwhile, the local government is selling massive amount of water to a bottling company to package our water and sell it elsewhere. This is the desert.
I have a serious autoimmune problem and severe asthma, both of which have a huge environmental component. My neighbors burn trash, burn coal or creosote for heat, and I can't even be mad at them because they're just poor and don't have options. They are vocal supporters of the party most closely aligned with their own exploitation, but neither party is really doing anything to stop our planet from dying, or to help poor rural people live a decent life, so again, I feel like I can't even argue with them.
Every day I feel overwhelmingly sad, just looking out of my window. If I see a butterfly I take a billion pictures, because who knows if it will be the last?
I think a lot of it comes from some level of overreaction.
Are things as good as they were? In some ways no.
Are things as bad as they have been, or ARE in other parts of the world? Not even close.
There's a very fatalistic viewpoint with the modern social media letting everyone feedback loop on their opinions (ill informed or not). There are legit problems, but there's also plenty of things to be happy about, and most just take those things for granted.
I think the increasing interconnectedness of the world has exacerbated a long standing problem of communities. There was this guy John Calhoun who did experiments with rodents to try and study what caused a colony to naturally die. He made a big enclosure and provided rats with plenty of food and no predators, and they still died out. In fact, they died earlier than he expected. And as he continued his experiments, he started seeing strange behaviors in the mice that eventually led to the disintegration of the colony.
Male mice would become increasingly aggressive. The strongest ones would win the best real estate for their burrows, but we're in a constant state of fending off challengers. Weaker rats couldn't secure a good place, and would congregate in the open common area where mass fights broke out. Female mice were constantly harassed by an endless stream of males, and would constantly move around to escape them, often neglecting their young in the process. Some rats retreated from the group as a whole and just loved at the fringes of the enclosure.
Early on people responded to these findings as evidence that overpopulation was a threat to humanity and that population control was a necessity. Later on, some follow on studies suggested that it was actually social crowding moreso than physical crowding that caused these behaviors.
Social media is social crowding. Everything you see, everything that happens in the world you are expected to have an opinion on, and whatever opinion you pick some people will tell you you're wrong and stupid and maybe even evil for thinking it. Everything is connected. Everyone is trying to influence everyone else. Even if you're not "chronically online", media affects everyone. News outlets will read out random people's tweets about their fruatrations. 90 year old grandma's are going on Facebook to try and tell an entire generation they are wrong about everything.
That much ambient negativity could drive a person mad.
How does that square with the rat park experiments? Less rats were more ideal all other needs being met?
Capitalism has taken the joy out of everything. It it's not earning a profit then it ceases to exist.
I miss really awesome people doing awesome projects just purely because they love to do it. It's getting more and more rare for this type of setup to exist.
I don't want to come off as flippant, but I chalk most of it up to perception. We're comparing ourselves largely to probably the most prosperous generation that's ever existed in the history of the world and came about because of both the rebuilding after the most destructive war in history and an astronomical leap in technological innovation. To think that we deserve what they had, an aberration in the entire history of the world, is a little entitled.
Then social media and omnipresent connectivity come along and make everything worse. The modern internet amplifies everything and so people have been ruminating on problems that don’t really exist to the extent that they believe them to. As other users have pointed out above, a lot of measures of economic and social progress have stayed the same or improved over decades. Yes, some things have gotten worse but taken as a whole it's not all doom and gloom.
I'm not at all saying that we should stop fighting for a better future or trying to improve the foundations of society and the economy, but I think that we all could learn to just settle a little more. People in parts of the world have much less than us and our ancestors in our very societies only a few generations ago had much less than us and they all found happiness and enjoyment. We need to admit that the post-WW2 generation were handed a golden goose and that we should not expect the same as they had, they lived during a great convergence that probably won't happen for at least another century if another millennium. It's depressing to watch yourself and everyone around you regress in a way, maybe that's our generation's lot in life, but I can guarantee you that once things normalize the next generations will never even know they lost something.
I know I'm a big proponent of this and I speak of it almost like it's a cure-all, but a big antidote to hopelessness and negativity is to simply get off the internet and when you do only expose yourself to reasonable amounts of reasonable content. Seriously, I've been spending the last couple of months just putting my phone away when I get home, limiting social and news internet use to a few hours a day, and avoiding shock/clickbait/endless scrolling and my mind is so much quieter and clearer than it has been in years. The modern internet was designed so that it acts like a drug and people are understandable resistant to giving that up but the more I take a critical look at it and the ways our society has changed since its inception, the more I feel like it's a disease for our society and feeds into so much negativity and outrage that I think is reflective in the feelings you've expressed in your post
To that I retort:
It's not entitlement. It's frustration that the older generations had this golden goose and didn't care to save any leftovers for those who come after them. It is greed and selfishness to not continue what they had for the next generations. They traded our futures by voting for Reagan and supporting debunked trickle down theories. Also keep in mind, this golden goose didn't exist for all oppressed groups then.
To diminish our generations anger and depression over that sell-out by those before us by comparing it to the lowest prosperity rankings of the would is moot. Every therapist, psychologist, or mental health professional will tell you this is an unfair comparison when it comes to your own mental health. If I and so many others are feeling this way and we have a mental health crisis in the US, I would say it's perfectly valid when our golden goose was eaten up before there was ever a chance to pick its bones. They didn't even bother to give us a carcus to make at least a meager stock from.
I think your emotions and sentiments are entirely valid. I am also angry at the older generations squandering of wealth that should have rightly been invested in the subsequent ones.
The entitlement I speak of though is for us to have ever imagined that what they gained was ever sustainable. The numbers don’t lie, unfortunately, the levels of economic growth post-WW2 are completely unsustainable. The previous generations could have done a lot to soften the blow for us but a reckoning with extreme economic growth was always bound to happen.
Everywhere in the West, nations are facing the same decline. Even countries who tried their best to limit greed and plant seeds for the future are slowly receding. There is no explosive growth in the world anymore outside of rapidly industrializing nations but even then that is less a result of any innovation or productivity gain and more just a transfer of wealth from West to East and Global South.
It’s terrible to have to admit it but unless something happens on the scale of mass mechanization or the information revolution, we’re all due for a tightening of our belts. That doesn’t necessarily mean we have to go back to living how they did in the 1800s, I doubt that will happen at all, but we’d be fools to think we’ll enjoy the prosperity seen by our parents and theirs.
This may not even be entirely a bad thing. I hope that more limited, sustainable, growth will help us to lead more sustainable lives and hopefully more in tune with nature. But what’s done is done. We could take actions now to slow the decline: making billionaires pay their fair share, restoring industry, more green (independent) energy, but it will only ever be a break on a runaway train.
Take your pick. There's no end to the misery you can find in this world. Just look at what people are saying and they'll all give you something to be depressed about.
Personally speaking, the thing I find most depressing is how much of politics have been taken over by nihilism. From a voter perspective, you've got viewpoints like "my vote doesn't matter" (which has a number of depressing reasonings behind it) and "the parties are all the same" or worse, "I need to vote for my candidate or else the apocalypse will happen". Or when it comes to specific issues nothing is going to happen because of corporate lobbying / corrupt politicians / voter apathy / stupid voters / polarized opinions / partisanship. We can't even do simple obvious things the country needs to do like discontinuing production of the penny, which is more expensive as raw materials than it is as currency.
The significant amount of degrowth that will be necessary as our society runs into hard resource limits will result in untold misery for the average person. We obviously aren't going to get rid of capitalism until it stops even kind of working, and degrowth under capitalism means everything getting way worse for normal people so the parasites can have a larger cut.
With this in mind and knowing that even the work that will be done won't be enough to keep us under 2C and we will live to see mass extinctions, crop failures, and refugee crises, why would I not be pessimistic? Of course I don't endlessly dwell on it and I do what I can to fight back, but let's be realistic here. Pessimism and hopelessness are responses that make a lot of sense.
I want to tag on to what some people have already said about perception.
"Ignorance is bliss." I used to be slightly angry at people who would say "I don't pay attention to politics." How could someone completely ignore the system that has a major impact on what they are and aren't allowed to do, as well as their future in a large number of ways? Well, since the death of reddit (to me, at least), I've pretty much ignored news and politics. Some things come up in a discord server I'm in, but the frequency is much lower. I'm not seeing 5 headlines 10-15 times a day as I previously was. I'm now seeing maybe 3 headlines a day. And, honestly, my mental state is much better. There have been some other changes that require more attention from me (mostly starting up school again), but I still have non-productive time on my phone and computer and instead spend that in other ways. I'm ultimately enjoying life more, even though I still have some uncertainty about my future (career, etc.). Removing the constant news feed made a tremendous difference.
As we approach voting opportunities, I will purposefully spend a little more time keeping up on politics. But I'll be doing this at my own pace when it's my own choice.
I'm a lifelong American
I'm mostly scared, and a bit negative:
Season's Greetings!
Before I answer, I'd actually like to ask you some questions for context in order to formulate my response. I promise, I'm not being combative, I just think you asked a really broad question and the answers to why you might not be prone to see the world like recent generations are numerous. I'm just trying to pare down my answer.
By your country's recorded metric, do you meet, exceed, or fall below the median income? Also, does your spouse?
If the answer to question 1 was meet or exceed, how long ago did you fall below the median income? You should be able to find it by googling "Median income for (country) in (year)." If you can't find clear data, when was the last time you spent 3 or more years of your life unable to allocate your budget to Dave Ramsey's suggested budget percentages, this will at least give me a ballpark?
Did you move out with any savings or did you receive any financial or financially tangible support? Dave Ramsey says $1,000 is a safety net, so you can use that as the baseline.
How long have you been working, how many jobs have you had, and how many of them did you leave for a better paying job vs being fired. No need to include lateral job movements.
Will you inherit any money?
Did you have any parents at home with you during the picturesque times of day (Weekends, evenings, holidays, maybe mom at home with you while dad works)?
Some of the responses here are already so great that it's intimidating to respond, but here goes. This is just for myself and doesn't try to factor in the experiences of people in my sphere.
I have a milderate chronic depression, so I'm in the subjective category right off the bat. But I think I handle it well so I don't attribute this outlook to that.
I do well enough economically. I can't afford a home in the bay area or to send kids to college. But I have always lived below my means and if I forget about those things then I make enough money to never need to think about it. Caveat to that at the end.
To me the world feels easy(?) but tedious. Food, shelter, and comfort are available to me (and I know I'm lucky to have them). But life is full of bureaucracy that is painful to navigate, but absolutely necessary to survive and secure your future in the modern world. Along with the comfort is the fact that almost nothing happens that gives people around me the opportunity to exercise integrity. As a result, as much as I love many people in my life, relationships can feel untested or unproven (it has been difficult seeing how people close to me have fallen short of my expectations on the few occasions when things have gotten hard).
I think I'm pretty disconnected from the media cycle compared to many, but that is certainly not a direction in which I find inspiration. It's hard to tell what our leaders actually think/believe, what they're just going along with, and what they're saying/doing intentionally to gain support. This makes the system (democracy) feel like an unlikely avenue for improvement in the world (not that I think benevolent capitalists are going to happen either).
I do some activities outside of work that have fairly straightforward objectives, involve life or death scenarios, and fairly tight teamwork. The time I spend on things like that is extremely liberating since I can focus wholly on what I'm doing and don't need to keep a running to-do list of things in my head just to maintain a modern existence (sure I still have to keep several things running in my head. but they're fairly present, not like things that need to be done some time this month). Life during these times isn't easy, but it is very rewarding, as is knowing and being able to rely on a team.
I wish I could remember his name but an author was mentioned on (I think) r/alpinism who wrote about the difficulty of coming back to society from big climbing objectives, it sounded like an experience that resonates.
Back to the caveat on economics. Working from home is killing me. I live alone in a 500sqft one bedroom apartment, and spending so many of my waking and sleeping hours in the same place is not good. I have good friends and may go out multiple times during the week, but it really is not good compensation. I can understand that if you have a dedicated office in your home, or a child that you can watch/raise/be involved with, or a long commute that you can skip then working from home might be great. That's just not my situation.
For this reason I'm looking at other careers, but they likely won't offer the same comfortable income and will likely involve moving to a lower cost of living area or other changes. However I think it would be worth it.
Another commenter talked about expectations and where the commenter's parents started compared to where the commenter started and where the commenter is now. That resonates as I was also set up with education in a good area, but am not on track to offer the same to my theoretical children. I don't dwell on that too much though, as I said, my current life is comfortable and secure enough to be grateful.