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Women of Tildes, do we want or need a designated women's space?
I'm relatively new here, and excited about the community. My question stems from learning that the usual way communities evolve here is by having specific topic information repeatedly surface in more general category forums. If we do not create a women's community here, comparable to the one that already exists for lgbt, will we be less likely to create topics related to women's issues? Can we predict how it will evolve?
What do you think?
This topic is locked. New comments can not be posted.
I'm going to lock this topic, since at this point I think the major points have been covered well and it feels like most of the comments in here now are just going in circles rehashing the same things repeatedly.
Don't interpret this as any kind of disapproval towards the idea—I think it's a good one, and I'd like to try it out soon, probably in conjunction with some other group additions/rearrangements, and possibly some other structural changes. I just don't think that any of us need or want to watch (or participate in) the same arguments over and over for the rest of the weekend.
If you feel like there's something you strongly need to express on the subject, please feel free to message it to me directly.
(I'm also going to mildly abuse my power to move this comment to the top with a fake Exemplary label, because I don't have a proper way to make a "sticky comment" at the moment)
I would like there to be a main Tilde about ~people. Then we could feel more free to open spaces like ~people.women, ~people.men, ~people.minority. I could follow any of those awesome communities, but then I also could go back, and have in ~people a page filled with the perspective of different and very interesting groups, but at the end all people.
In other words, I wouldn't want groups about people to feel isolated and closed, but I would like for a safe space for any of us, and for that space to not feel like a prison, but like a conference room, in which we get to share with others our perspective.
I think this is actually the ideal solution. Moving ~lgbt into ~people.lgbt as well. I've also been thinking that ~local might be good thing for tildes eventually as well, seeing ~local.country.city as one of the big things people have vocally said they miss from Reddit. Obviously it's only sustainable as Tildes grows more, but some places (~local.uk.london, ~local.us.newyork) are probably already big enough to see some discussion
I think we just found some of our new groups. I love everything about both of these suggestions.
I think this is great idea. As part of non-binary minority, instead of having "silos" i just want us all to chat together. Then have the groups for specific topics, so people can filter things.
I feel like this is the tildes way.
This seems like the perfect approach to me. I'm a woman myself, but I was a bit skeptical at first how a community that only applies to one segment of the population would mesh with the overall philosophy of tildes. Well, this is a great option for how.
I’m too new to mark this as exemplary but I think you’re right on and I hope it isn’t just noise to say so.
I think really leans into and takes advantage of Tildes’ structure. When reading all the discussions about rags and groups and the structure on Tildes I’ve been feeling that the right set up is something where each individual can decide how high the boundary is between spaces.
In the world of subscribing to tags (which I think is a must), you could hone in on only one area if you like, siloing your experience of that space. Or you could just as easily go to the TLT (top level topic) and lower all the walls. I think Tildes needs to have the ease of accessing the slightly muddled TLT to avoid the cliques and drama Reddit has with subreddits.
Thank you, and yes, that's how a circlejerk is born, a close space with people who think of themselves as being right. They could be right, but that could allow them to isolate more, and to not allow challenging ideas, which is dangerous.
I like your idea of lowering the walls, that's exactly the image I had, but you have expressed it better.
Like a tree, we could discuss things on the leaves, on a branch, closer to the trunk, or in the root of everything. Each different place we discuss the same subject, a new perspective could sprout, but the root knows the leaves exist, and leaves don't disregard the root for being different. That's, in my humble opinion, the goal.
I vote for this as well.
I would likely not join a women option [online], not because of who is or isn't qualified or who it applies to or not, but because [and this is where everyone might disagree with me] women are still humans, and there are a lot of humans I like, but there are a lot I don't like. It has nothing to do with their gender - perceived, chosen, or/and everything in-between. Humans in general bring a huge variety of anything and everything, so I generally don't gravitate where segregation (not like the bad kind, but I hope you understand how my thinking works) is promoted on the internet, since it can so easily become toxic, even if unintended.
Do you belong to any marginalized groups? Forgive me if I'm wrong about that, but a lot of your claims (everyone is equal on the internet, people are evaluated on the content of their argument, not needing to worry about sexuality/gender, etc.) don't ring true in my experience on the web.
It feels like some folks in this thread have a knee jerk reaction to creation of a space that doesn't represent them and demand a space of their own, while failing to recognize they already have a majority share in most other areas and wouldn't necessarily benefit in the same way from a specialized space. That being said, sure, make a space for each gender if that's what will make the majority happy, but I think it's missing the point.
I'm in my 30s, so I've been on the internet since the late 90s (though in a much smaller capacity until the early 00s).
I can't help but notice you didn't answer my original question, so I'll assume that you belong to the main demographics of this site (which there is nothing wrong with, of course). The problem with wanting everyone to stay in one space is that the majority demographic inevitably drowns out the minority voices. If there are 10x the number of men in a discussion, what are the odds you will ever hear the female perspective? Men's opinions will resonate with other men and get voted to the top while the few women linger at the bottom. Topics about women will not be as visible to other women due to lack of male interest/votes. There are already precious few women on this site and you will have a tough time retaining them or attracting more to join without some effort to promote their voices, similar to the way this site promotes LGBTQ+ voices.
But that's not how groups function on Tildes. They are not analogous to subreddits. Groups just provide the context within which the given topic is taking place.
Who work in STEM fields.
The issues I could see with this is if lumping ~lgbt as an existing top level in is seen as a demotion in priority or status, and the evergreen intersectionality sorting problems if articles and discussions could only be under one sub group at a time. There's also the sorting optics of putting all the identity groups in one pile and if that implies equivalency or compartmentalization, and I could go either way on that.
I would like a women-oriented space on Tildes, but with the major caveat that it accepts all women, regardless of birth gender. Unfortunately the women-centric reddit alternatives have proven to be pretty trans-exclusionary and that's not a space I want anything to do with.
I’ve spent so long trying to type up a reply to this and I really don’t know what to say, other than I 100% agree. While trans women will have unique experiences that I might not fully understand, they will also experience living life as a woman in this society and so their perspectives are relevant.
Intersectionalism is as important as mutual respect for each other's experiences. For example, respecting that a hypothetical thread about period cramps is probably not the time and place for me to chime in and tell a cis woman what's what. But I think that there are more shared experiences than not, so I agree that such a space should be for every woman, cis or trans
I for one, welcome trans women.
Incidentally, years ago as I was just becoming aware of trans issues, I lurked r/gendercritical for a little while. Your statement about respecting intersectionality cut 95 percent of their arguments and anecdotes off completely. Here on Tildes, the malice tag should be sufficient to handle problems if they arise. I expect the vast majority of people here will be discussing in good faith. Again, I agree. Trans women are women and are welcome in women's space as far as I am concerned.
Really? I thought 2xchromosomes and askWomen were explicit about their inclusion of trans women
They are, but some people get peeved about 2x's name sounding TERFy even though the sub itself isn't.
Yeah, it was an unfortunate side effect of the sub being created in like 2009, before trans issues were as visible, but from hanging out there a bunch, it never seemed transphobic to me, either.
100% agreed. I'm not here for TERF fuckery.
TERF:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF For anyone else not in the know
Agreed, with the note that some topics relevant to cis women are also worth feeding into by trans men, for instance periods, abortion, etc. I don't want to necessarily want men to feed into general topics, because a lot of stuff men just can't relate to in the same way. But where healthcare is related, I would welcome trans men into that conversation too.
I wholeheartedly agree with this point as a trans person myself.
I wouldn't oppose the existence of such a group, but I'm not sure how much use of it I would make based on my experiences with many women's communities elsewhere on the internet. There are two common things that tend to turn me off them: negativity and exclusion.
I often block or unsubscribe from women's communities on other sites because they tend to focus on negativity and cause me to get into a doomscrolling funk. I think it's important to be aware of problems in the world so that we can work toward solutions, but the internet seriously harm my mental health when problems (especially problems without workable solutions) dominate discourse. I really need the negativity to be only a small portion of the discussion or I begin to feel hopeless even in my personal life.
I have also found than many (though certainly not all) such communities can be sometimes feel alienating for me if they discourage non-women from participating. Although I obviously have some characteristics and life experiences that I share with women but not with non-women, on the whole I relate to people primarily based on their personality, not their demographic. For example, the two people I relate most closely to in the entire world and who get me on a level that no one else does are both men (my dad and my partner).
When I encounter a space that excludes or seems unwelcoming toward people I relate to, I can't help but internalize it almost as if it were directed at me personally (in much the same way that, say, spaces that are unwelcoming toward trans people feel hostile to me even though I myself am cis). However, communities where the topic is about women (but men and nonbinary folks are still welcome to participate and relate it to their own experiences and thoughts) suit me well, so long as all participants are speaking in good faith and genuinely trying to reach a point of mutual empathy, rather than trying to score points for their "team".
I think a shining example of how this can be done correctly is r/TheGirlSurvivalGuide. Though this is less a "general" women's space and more of an advice center, their philosophy and acceptance of everyone has been really comforting.
Ah, that makes me sorry I never encountered that subreddit while I was active on that site.
There were a couple of other women's or gender-related subreddits that I used to enjoy, but they got hectic and depressing around 2014-2015.
I understand your concerns and I agree that very big communities can get toxic. That’s true of any community, and there is not anything special that makes women’s groups more toxic than any other group.
I believe identity-based communities are more prone to toxicity by their very nature. Without a positive central focus that something like a hobby-based community has, the unifying factor ends up being treatment by the out-group, with the constant focus on such issues amplifying them to extremes.
I can't help but feel that when the dust settles on social media and we understand better the effects it has on people, we'll view identity-based communities as a major mistake. Personally, getting out of such communities was one of the best decisions I ever made.
My point is that identity-based communities are especially—not uniquely—prone to toxicity because complaining about the out-group is the perennial topic that keeps them afloat; there often isn't much to discuss otherwise.
Despite being the third-largest community on the site, you can go to /r/gaming and the discussion is about video games themselves, the subreddit isn't filled with threads like "Here's what non-gamers get wrong about gaming" or "A co-worker told me video games are for children" that do little more than breed contempt.
I think the danger is when people base their identity on one thing. Any threat to that becomes a huge threat to your sense of self.
I think many communities are prone to it. However, communities based around an identity are especially prone to becoming soul-sapping if that identity suddenly becomes the political kickball of the day. There have been several points in recent years where just passively existing as a woman has been treated like some kind of political stand or symbol. For me, at least, it is remarkably surreal and dehumanizing. (In the current political climate, I'm sure a great many trans people understand what I'm talking about even better than I do.)
Some women's group provide a lot of helpful information not easily found elsewhere on the Internet. For example r/menopause. Sure, there are rants and complaints but also a lot of support and knowledge sharing.
FWIW this is one of the golden rules of Tildes. Speak in good faith, try to assume others are as well. Those whom don't, won't stick around.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying about the negative tone of some women-exclusive spaces. It also makes sense that some women might like a separate space, so I'm wondering if gender/women/men tags might be a good compromise worth trying?
My reading of the site's philosophy is ideally communities grow organically out of tags. If a tag subscription feature is rolled out, I think a women tag could function as a really easy opt-in for people that want that space while still encouraging some broader engagement.
I would very much enjoy a designated women's space. Having those spaces in other areas of the interwebs was helpful for me personally and professionally.
It’s time for /Witchesvsthepatriarchy to come to Tildes!
That was my favorite place!
Can I ask why? All I ever saw from that subreddit was vitriol, unless there's some meta-humour that I'm not understanding.
Not the person you replied to above but I subbed there and didn't really see much vitriol. It was mostly a place for "live your best life, fuck the patriarchy, you don't owe society conformity" with a bit of witchy flavor. It was generally a pretty supportive place in my experience, and anecdotally there was a lot more participation by trans women and nonbinary folks than on TwoX.
That wasn’t my experience at all. I’m actually kind of surprised you had that experience, I can’t figure out what gave you that impression.
People would get frustrated, especially with recent events targeting women and trans rights, but most comments on those posts were acknowledging the poster’s emotions rather than stoking the flames.
As only an outside observer (and a infrequent one at that) that was my impression to.
WvP has a discord server. It’s much more rapid fire than the subreddit
I really hate that. It's so stressful to keep up with busy discord servers, big group chats, and the like. And then if you're gone for 30 minutes you've completely lost context and need to catch up on a million messages
I can’t do non-gaming discords, it’s too much to keep up with.
Oh my goodness, do you know where to find an invite link? Can't pull it from Reddit rn for obvious reasons...
Just tagging along! Would also love to know more.
Let me see if I can find one on the disc.
Edit: https://discord.gg/witchesvspatriarchy
You are the best! Thank you for finding that for me!
No problem! Happy to help out. ❤️
Twoxxchromosome was such a good, supportive place before they made it default. I’d love to have a space like that again.
I adore TwoXChromosomes. I will miss it once I log off forever.
TrollX is/was such a nice community, I'd love a tildes equivalent!
As a guy, I appreciated lurking there. It opened my eyes to what a lot of people are experiencing and thinking and made me so much more aware of how to be mindful and understanding of that.
I loved the guy lurkers, before it became default and became a constant debate about women’s issues with women a minority. And fwiw I welcome friendly men in women’s spaces. It makes me feel better to know that there are people who listen and care even though they can’t experience everything we do.
I agree!! Women’s spaces are important havens on the wild wild net.
Hi, welcome to Tildes! A women’s space on Tildes has been brought up before, and there has been some good discussion, e.g see here: https://tildes.net/~tildes.official/g2z/proposals_for_new_groups_july_2019#comment-3ok9
I would imagine we’re going to be trialing some new groups in the near future, so it’s a good time to renew the discussion if people are interested!
I’d definitely be up for a designated women’s space. Some might think it’s not that big of a deal, but idk, sometimes on the internet it can feel very male dominated and it’s nice to just have a space designated for women. I understand other people feel differently tho
For what it’s worth, it is also very interesting to read them as a male, I have learnt many things from such discussions that I was simply blind to (mostly to sad things unfortunately, like often having to be on constant alert mode, etc)
Spaces being designated but not opaque to outsiders is an excellent way of increasing cultural education and decreasing individual differences in outlook. 100% supportive of what you're saying.
🙋♀️I welcome the idea because I for one, would not being going to Tildes as it currently is for support/advice on womens’ problems. 😂 I’m also probably still stuck thinking everyone’s a guy on the internet
One point of anecdata: I showed Tildes to my fiancée and she didn’t really love that there wasn’t a space for women. She felt like if she joined that she would just be in a big boys’ club.
Welcome! The more voices the merrier! There aren't really seperate communities at all. Just topics and tags. The toplevels you see really don't function as anything more than an initial 'tag.'
There's no seperation of rules or moderation.
Post anything that will make for some good discussion. Don't worry about 'getting it right,' someone will be able to adjust things if needed, like adding more tags or shifting the toplevel.
Anybody who doesn't want to see women-oriented topics can choose to filter out posts with the 'women' tag.
Ok, but my question is more for the women here, will having a top level tag for us like lgbt has, lead us to be more free to discuss issues, and do we want to ask for that specifically.
I think it would help identify that yes, there's room for us here. Women are a very small segment of the users on tildes, it'd be nice to be able to seek advice and participate in discussions in a format that's dedicated to us.
I'll also link over the ongoing big discussion about groups and such.
But what I'm really just saying is, don't let the lack of group discourage from posting now.
Edit: This reply in particular.
Yes, this is true, but women are saying that the culture of Internet places can be excluding and that a place for women, like ~lgbt, would help with developing a more welcoming culture. It would prime participants to hold back before saying "well actually" or "but prove to my satisfaction that this is sexism" or whatever.
Reading through a lot of the comments here there seems to be confusion that introducing a top level ~women group would somehow segregate discussion.
Tildes groups do not function like subreddits do. Our groups here are not silo'd communities but rather the context within which the topic at hand is being discussed. All users are default subbed to all top level groups, and as such are welcome to participate in those discussions given you remain mindful of the context within which the topic is being discussed.
Furthermore, having a top level group for ~women would act as a silent signal that women are welcome and encouraged to discuss topics unique to their perspective on a platform that is otherwise very male dominated in it's discourse. Hopefully, over time the population here could become more balanced, but that won't happen if we try to fight against being inclusionary.
If there are women on this site that think it would help open avenues for more women to participate here, then we should listen to them and try it out.
... for now. That can change.
Thoughts on making Tildes groups more independent
That is a fair point to make, but I stand by my comment as it pertains to how the site currently functions. You are correct though that it is important to note that Tildes is likely going to make some changes in the near future, one way or another.
If Reddit doesn’t die, join r/witchesvspatriarchy
The rule there is men are welcome, as long as they are supportive and contribute to a welcoming environment.
Not a woman, but I think tildes is well overdue for the addition of a ~woman/~xx/~witches/[insert catchy name] group. (For that matter, we're also overdue for a ~bipoc group.)
There's a relatively large number of queer (in particular, cis male gay) tilderinos here, and I've long wondered to what extent we can attribute that to having a dedicated ~lgbt space. A long-standing criticism of this site is that we haven't done enough to attract minority voices; a couple dedicated groups seems like an easy investment.
I think you're probably overestimating how many people in ~lgbt are cis male gay, but I agree that there's a surprisingly large number of queer people here and that the group is a big part of that.
But definitely don't name a women's group ~xx. That was a bad decision when TwoX did it and we have the opportunity to avoid stuff that's trans-exclusionary.
How does a group for people of colour work on a global website, when many of the participants are likely to be people of colour from countries where their "colour" is actually the majority? I'm thinking of examples like latino people in Brazil, brown people in India, and black people in Nigeria. Do they qualify for a "people of colour" group, or is that group only for ethnic groups that are treated as minorities where they live?
If it's ethnic minorities, would that include white people living in India, for example?
On a global website, who is included and excluded in a "people of colour" group?
By this reasoning, why even have a dedicated woman's space when women outnumber men globally?
With respect to a ~bipoc group:
The label bipoc is extremely American, so I'm not sure it's a good fit for Tildes. Just because most of the userbase is in North America does not mean we should become more exclusionary to the rest of the world.
As an example, what does indigenous mean to most people outside of America? A lot of Europeans would say they're indigenous to their country. Person of colour is equally confusing to many people that don't think of themselves as any sort of colour.
There was some good discussion on this topic here:
https://tildes.net/~life/15ts/are_there_any_communities_for_black_users_on_tildes
The point is that this website has historically done a poor job courting non-white voices, and having a dedicated group(s) for those folk would make this place for welcoming. The actual label is largely irrelevant.
The Sámi.
I'm familiar with the Sámi; Sweden advertises them to Americans as a reason to visit the country. My point is what makes them any more indigenous than someone whose family has lived in China for thousands of years? The Sámi face discrimination for their nomadic lifestyle and culture, but I'm not sure that means they identify as BIPOC since it's a uniquely American label.
Your comment was implying that 'indigenous' is intrinsically tied to the USA. I was providing a counterpoint, seperate from the discussion on BIPOC.
I don't think the word indigenous is exclusive to the US, but the identity label "indigenous" is uniquely North American and more common in Canada than anywhere else. Even in the US, many Native Americans actually prefer the term American Indian.
BIPOC is a self-identity label. If people feel like they're BIPOC and they want to post about anything related to that they'd use the group. If they don't feel like BIPOC, or they don't feel their post is relevant for that group, they'd pick a different group.
So... With the thread about adding inline image display to Tildes (and why that's a horrible idea) fresh on my mind, I've perused this thread and discovered that almost every account advocating for this is less than a month old. Considering it's essentially a request for a sub-community, being approved by a bunch of newcomers, I can't help but get the impression of people who want to immigrate, but not integrate. (I'm a newcomer too, for what that's worth). Until this thread, I'd heard nothing positive about r/witchesvspatriarchy, and when looking at TwoX, there was seemingly endless negativity. There's a crudely drawn image from 4Chan illustrating the life cycle of hobbies/communities, and in reading this thread I am haunted by it. What might be the scariest thing to me right now is seeing a lovely, new/stable community suddenly undergo enshittification.
I'll admit I'm a man, but I'm against it, at least until more veteran voices approve.
Veteran account here! I fully support women having their own space on the site.
Tildes has been largely male throughout its history, and while it has been better than a lot of other places online with regards to topics about gender and women specifically, we've definitely had our frictions here, and I think in the past it has pushed out or kept out women from our community.
I know you identified negativity on women's subreddits, but, to me, that's not specific to women's subreddits but reddit in general. One of the things I dislike about that site is the hyper-pessimistic, outrage-always stance that seems to fill the comments on nearly everything. Tildes is trying for a different style community at large, and my ideal for that would be that it's present across our groups.
I also think we can look at ~lgbt and see a positive example of integration versus immigration. Tildes has a good number of queer users (I'm one of them!) and we are present and active throughout the site, not just on ~lgbt.
Also, ultimately, I feel like the call on whether women want a space here should come down to them, not you or I. I don't really have any skin in the game for ~anime because I don't watch it, so ultimately I'm happy to yield that space and its direction to people that do. In the same way, I feel like women should be the ones in charge of their space here.
Agreed with @kfwyre on all counts! I love the way they explained the value of ~lgbt in the conversation we had about this topic a while back, like hanging a rainbow flag on a shopfront. Right now, most participation on this site is rather male centric; it has a lot of the subtle social clues that indicate that the folks participating are masculine-leaning, and that is clearly (given the number of people in favor of this idea!) contributing to a number of our users feeling like they don’t belong, or at least desiring a space that was more obviously welcoming to their perspective. It seems like everyone participating in this conversation is interested in making women feel at home and welcome on Tildes, and if women feel like ~women would be a way to take another step in that direction, that makes a lot of sense to me, and I think we should do it!
I'm a reasonably old account. I also fully support women having their own space here.
(Especially because Tildes is trans inclusive.)
Had a couple accounts before this one back to ~mid 2019. Definitely support women having their own space on the site.
More generally I think it's a good thing to have some (contextual) mechanism for voices that would otherwise be drowned out being amplified.
When I'm in a place with a specific purpose like ~lgbt, /r/law, some female-focused sub, etc., I adjust my behavior by rethinking what I vote for and whether a comment I'd make is contributing from that perspective. I have the expectation that other people do the same, which shifts the persona of the place from the male WEIRD default (of early Reddit and others) to someone who is mostly queer, or has some interest/experience in law.
A long time back I mentioned growing up androgynous and missing (sorta) the access to experience what a lot of the population does. If ~tildes doesn't have some place with female voices/experiences having primacy I'd probably seek it out elsewhere because I think it's important.
I get the concerns, but I think either side (understandably) imports some bad experiences and lack of trust in the other, and that isn't a great foundation for getting to a better sort of community.
This isn't a new idea, and while opinions were split back when it was first proposed, many older users were in favor of it: https://tildes.net/~tildes.official/g2z/proposals_for_new_groups_july_2019#comment-3ok9
And I personally still think it's a really good idea. In fact, unless we want Tildes to gradually lose all the women who recently joined us (as has happened in the past), and eventually go back to being totally cis male dominated (once again), I think it's not only a good idea but practically a necessity.
Hi! Veteran user and one of the very few women represented in the tildes demographic survey; I would fuuuuucking love a ~women or similar place because look!! Look how many women are here and asking for it now! There were like 5 or 10 of us at some abysmal point and even then I'm a huge lurker but I love this influx of women and would like to have a space for us so they don't leave.
I hear your voice, loud and clear. Other veterans have also approved, I see, so I'm on board now. But honestly, I think your perspective here is the most important (as a veteran woman).
Also, your username seems amusingly pertinent, both for being possibly the first woman on the site, and for having a username so short you must be an early joiner.
For my username, I wanted my S/O to be wall-E but he's a turncoat and went with his usual username. But it inadvertently became an accurate moniker, and yup! I joined 2018
Unfortunately there can be a lot of negative posts in women's spaces because women encounter a lot of negative situations in their lives (often caused by interactions with men). These spaces become places where women come for release and support without judgment or "well actuallys" from men. I don't think that makes the community itself negative, in the comments it's honestly often the opposite. The OP vents or describes their situation and other women comfort and support them. If this isn't your jam, don't participate, but I don't think that's a reason to bar others from creating a space that may be helpful for them.
I would caution against quashing this idea based on limited impressions of communities on other sites. Also, do we know what the gender representation is among "veteran" accounts? Is it possible that the idea never took off because not many women joined early on?
We do. There were unofficial censuses taken in the past. And unsurprisingly, straight, cis males were by far the most dominant demographic here.
Yes. That's very likely the case, IMO. Which is why I personally believe ~women or ~talk.women should be created so at least the limited amount of women we have here can have their own space, and we are more likely to actually hold onto them. As exemplified by the ~lgbt group likely being the reason we have actually managed to retain so many LGBT+ users (myself included).
I'm here for the free chocolate, actually. I heard there was free chocolate? I've been waiting a while.
I regret not making a comment earlier now, as I think I can put your worry into words more precisely. I have already discussed this a lot before on meta discussions on how we discuss things and reddit. I would posit that those subreddits, a long with many many other forums, perhaps the majority, fails because their function is very broad. That is perhaps why some of the subreddits mentioned here do poorly, because they are capturing a whole gender and then so much more.
Consider the following. A forum wants to be (let's call it a social space) about constructive discussion, activism, emotional ventilation and entertainment. These things necessarily undermine each other, unless there are mechanisms which contextualizes a discussion(/thread). Activists tend to uses hyperbolic language. Hyperbolic language is imprecise and necessarily less truthful. Therefore it undermines constructive discussions. A meme gets mistaken for mockery or a statement about something. Somebody tries to start a constructive discussion in a social space where nobody wants to have it. We can go through the motions here and point at every little thing, but you probably get the gist.
An important sub-point here is language and the degree to which people are unable to articulate themselves. Also consider that posters themselves aren't sure of what kind of discussion they want or whether they want to interact with people at all. In my experience people vastly underestimate the degree to which these things annihilates meaningful discourse. This is why people argue that websites with strong cultures, such as we see on anonymous message boards, does so well. In these places the culture itself contextualizes and tells people how you are supposed to have a discussion. I invite you to go back to reddit and read the sidebars. Usually they will say something like "This is a place to discuss x..." or "share thoughts and opinion...". It is profoundly broad and the minute you apply qualifiers to "discussion", you will agree with me that reddit is not a place to discuss things. Which is why I have pretty much stopped using the word "discussion".
For these reasons I would strongly advice, not just for the ladies but everyone, disperse to the relevant social places. Not saying you can't have a cozy meme-forum, but don't go to a broad forum trying to have a constructive discussion on feminism. Go to the specialized feminism forum that actively cultivates the right kind of discussion if there is one. If a forum is simply just space for women and related topics, you are doing little else than putting a bunch of women into a room/social space. More needs to be done, especially if you want in-depth and good constructive discussions.
In the context of Tildes and its group structure, what would you propose? Each group is very broad with tags allowing some refinement, but nothing is really confined to a neat little specific discussion space (unless I'm missing something, please correct me if I'm wrong).
I imagine the women's group would have broad and varied discussions similar to the other broad discussions taking place in other groups, maybe tagged with "feminism/activism" or "just venting" or some other modifiers to let you filter out content that doesn't appeal to you. But overall based on the structure of the site I don't know how we can avoid the broad forum that you warn against, at least in the beginning. Tildes starts broad and will maybe be able to branch into specific niche topics as it grows, but if it never does, should we avoid making this group just because it doesn't have a specific mission? Why doesn't that criticism apply to the rest of the groups (or does it)?
Another veteran voice here, 100% yes for ~women or whatever name it ends up being.
~tildettes... of course!
I think you may be expanding the concept of enshittification here beyond what Docterow described it as. Enshittification applies to platforms that change themselves and make the user experience worse to make a profit. That doesn't apply here because Tildes is and always will be 100% donor funded.
https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/
Perhaps you're looking for a different concept?
...yes, you're right. I was off the mark as far as enshittification specifically goes. But I am still worried about a more general idea of... "Community decay", I suppose?
If this community thinks adding a women’s group is decay, I’m probably going to leave. That doesn’t sound like a healthy place for me to be in.
Agreed. While so far Tildes has been less ostracizing than reddit, if the result of the discussion is that we shouldn't even try to have a women's group because it could become destructive, that's kind of a red flag that I'm not as welcome here as I thought.
I can't speak for everyone, but I personally view adding a women's group as the opposite of "decay"; It would actually be a sign of entirely positive growth and efforts to be more inclusive. Nor is it "siloing", since I truly believe it will actually lead to more diversity, and diversity of thought across the whole site by encouraging more women to stick around, and participate, by explicitly declaring they're welcome here and have a space to call their own. Just as ~lgbt did for our LGBT+ users.
cc: @Axelia
Thanks for the support. I obviously agree, and I’m honestly surprised at the arguments against it. I don’t think these arguments are in the spirit of what tildes is trying to be. I also kind of get the feeling that people are trying to be contrarian without realizing their arguments are hurtful.
Sadly, I'm not surprised, since they're roughly the same shortsighted, concern-troll-ish arguments against creating women, racial minority, and lgbt+ spaces that I've been hearing for decades on every other social platform. But at least the arguments against it here are being drowned in a sea of support for the idea, which is heartening to see. :)
Sorry for being a bit of a pedant, but I just don't want such a useful concept to describe a very common venture capital process to become diluted. I think you've at this point gotten enough responses to your main point, so I'll keep mine short
My perspective is that communities change as they grow; it's not possible to prevent that, and as a benefit of that growth, you get more content to enjoy. One of the ways they can influence that growth towards positivity and productivity is to encourage a diverse group of users. @xothist pointed out here that Tildes's communities are not self-isolating the way reddit ones have been; all users are subscribed to all communities by default, and only Deimos can create communities, which prevents communities from starting as or turning malicious.
I see. This does address a concern that I hadn't quite voiced yet, the fear (which could very well not be rational!), that a lot of these new users would not post outside of ~women, which would consequently mean they're not really part of the community. Again, immigrating without integrating. I'd also lost sight of the fact that only the admin can create new groups.
This concern hasn't quite dissipated, but it has also occurred to me that there's nothing that could be done here that couldn't also be undone, so if it does somehow turn out to be a negative... Deimos can handle it.
My mind has changed, and I'm now open to the idea.
I appreciate the discussion about creating a designated women’s space on Tildes, and I understand the desire for a safe and supportive environment for women to share their experiences and perspectives. However, I also worry that creating a separate subforum for women might lead to more isolation and division among the users of this site.
I think one of the benefits of forums like Tildes is that they allow us to exchange thoughts with other people, especially those who are not part of our own minority or gender. I think we can learn a lot from each other and foster more empathy and understanding by engaging in respectful and constructive dialogue across different groups. I don’t want to see Tildes become a place where people only interact with those who are similar to them, and ignore or dismiss those who are different.
I think that would go against the spirit of this site, which is to promote high-quality and diverse content and discussion. I hope we can find a way to balance the needs of women and other marginalized groups with the goal of creating an inclusive and welcoming community for everyone.
As a long time user, I vehemently disagree. IMO adding a group for women is exactly in the spirit of this site, a spirit which includes actively fostering diversity and inclusivity (which is why ~lgbt exists). And rather than create a "silo", such a group will actually lead to more diversity, and diversity of thought across the whole site by encouraging more women to stick around, and participate, by explicitly declaring they're welcome here and have a space to call their own. Just as ~lgbt did for our LGBT+ users.
Wouldn't this new space encourage women (who polls show are vastly underrepresented on this site) to share their perspectives and increase the exchange of diverse ideas? Why do you think allowing a space dedicated to women's issues would necessarily be divisive to the community? Why couldn't we learn from each other by listening to others' experiences?
How would adding more topics of discussion prevent discussion? Can you explain this more?
I really feel like this comment is
Does the exemplary Award get displayed with one vote? Does this comment really deserve the exemplary award?
Without getting into the rest of the post, anyone who's had an account for more than a week can give one Exemplary every eight hours. Trying to litigate what is and is not Exemplary will bring no one any joy. Think of it as a resource limited sign of approval from a single person.
I think you might be misunderstanding how groups (currently) function. Groups on Tildes are not silo'd communities like subreddits are. Everyone is under the same Tildes umbrella and the groups just provide the context for whatever discussion is being had.
Think of the top level groups as a banner that says "Tildes as a whole welcomes the discussion of (insert group name) here". There is nothing exclusionary about that.
You might appreciate Xothist's comment here
There is already isolation and division as tagging people with 'TERFs', Tildes should keep focusing on quality discussion regardless their political position.
Drawing a direct comparison to Reddit might not be the best, but Reddit definitely had some really nice subreddits for things that are uniquely women's things, and I would absolutely welcome something similar to them here.
That said, I think it would be good to create a space uniquely for men as well, else I think Tildes may to some degree, fall into a trap of one tiny area being specifically for us women and the rest of the website being for men. While that's obviously not the case, I think it's at least worth considering.
You bring up good points and I don't necessarily disagree, I just don't see the downside in creating tildes that cater specifically to each of the sexes, I suppose.
A ~girltalk or something would be nice, though. :)
I’m curious if this would be like ~lgbt where there’s no walls up but it’s clear it’s a space for people under that banner. Or more like blackpeopletwitter where it’s often explicit that if you’re not black you can not post.
I would be really bummed if this site fell victim to American-centric race discourse where the colour of your skin (or your blood quantum*) is the only criterion on which you're judged. The rest of the world does things differently; I would hope that if a diversity-driven space like this did exist, it would not assume that people of colour and colonized populations around the world have identical experiences or perspectives on these matters.
*a concept invented by colonizers that unfortunately seems to have a strong grasp in the US
In a large enough community, if there are separations of topics, it makes the most sense to create separate topic tracks for historically marginalized and/or actively underrepresented groups. ~lgbt covers the former, and I'm glad that it's its own space here. As previously proposed in the thread linked elsewhere in these comments, it sounds like a space for discussing women's issues as OP puts it would make sense for the latter. I can refresh this community multiple times a day and get new topics, which seems more than enough to satisfy the "large enough community" piece, too.
Would I personally stay subscribed? I dunno! That doesn't seem like a particularly relevant question. The rest of the rules and norms of this site make me think that such a group, if created here, wouldn't necessarily repeat mistakes past spaces may have made. It feels to me like the point of Tildes is to try to address issues other social spaces on the internet have made. I don't believe a designated women's space is one of those mistakes, and I think trying it here and now makes sense.
i don’t think anyone is asking for a closed group—it would be visible to read and comment by everyone but dedicated to topics for women, by women
Spaces for all, but no restrictions in who can participate in the conversations. You’re just turning into an echo chamber, and you’re excluding people from partaking in a discussion that they might find important to fight for or to learn from. Trying to join in a conversation on one of those subs on Reddit because I wanted to learn more and got hit with the “you are not a member of the sub, fuck off”. So, I just blocked the entire subreddit as it wasn’t welcoming to people that weren’t the specific exclusive group.
Context is important. What did you ask, and how? And where did you ask it? (rhetorical questions) Not every subreddit is welcoming to receiving random questions from people who fall outside their intended demographic, and that's a good and necessary thing, IMO... because allowing that can be exhausting, frustrating, and discouraging for the people who the subreddit is meant to cater to.
E.g. From personal experience, I know how absolutely exhausting it can be to constantly have to answer even well-intentioned questions about LGBT+ issues asked by people who aren't LGBT+ themselves, even if they're LGBT+ allies. And I also know how infuriating, and discouraging it is to be on a site where fellow LGBT+ people are having to constantly "debate" and defend themselves from others who believe we're evil, sinful, and/or shouldn't have equal rights.
I and many other LGBT+ people don't want to be on a site like that. So, ultimately people need to ask themselves which is more important; Having LGBT+ people actually on the site to provide their perspectives, and so giving them a bit of a "safe space" to encourage their ongoing participation, or allowing questions and debate about every single subject to take place everywhere on that site? Because IMO you can't have both.
However, with that said, just like ~lgbt, I imagine any ~women focused groups that get created here would be open to participation by people not in that demographic. But also just like ~lgbt, certain topics would likely also be considered out of bounds. E.g. Debating abortion rights would probably not be allowed because that would potentially drive women away from the site, completely undermining the purpose of having such a group in the first place.
I think you've captured it perfectly, just because there would be a women's group doesn't mean men would be excluded, but men should keep the group's context in mind and seek to learn, understand, and support rather than inadvertently invalidate the experiences of others. I don't think any of us ladies want to completely exclude men from the discussion, but we'd appreciate a place where we don't get drowned out by men's voices.
I would agree but avoiding gatekeeping, excluding or echochambers, I agree to @rickartz starting with ~people and tag communities from there.