182 votes

Former US President Donald Trump has been found guilty of thirty-four counts of falsifying business records to influence the outcome of the 2016 election

155 comments

  1. [31]
    Jedi
    Link
    Sentencing will take place July 11, at 10 am. Four days before the RNC where he’ll officially become the Republican candidate.

    Sentencing will take place July 11, at 10 am.

    Four days before the RNC where he’ll officially become the Republican candidate.

    68 votes
    1. [6]
      Akir
      Link Parent
      Just for fun I went into r/conservative to read some of their comments. Some of the most upvoted comments are about how they still plan to vote for him. Short of a spectacular health issue...

      Just for fun I went into r/conservative to read some of their comments. Some of the most upvoted comments are about how they still plan to vote for him. Short of a spectacular health issue developing, he's going to at the very least make it to the official Republican candidate for President.

      43 votes
      1. [2]
        smiles134
        Link Parent
        The outcome of these trials never really mattered in the sense that he'd lose political support. His base has never cared about reality, only what they're told. Trump says he's innocent, that it's...

        The outcome of these trials never really mattered in the sense that he'd lose political support. His base has never cared about reality, only what they're told. Trump says he's innocent, that it's a sham, a political attack -- this gets repeated ad nauseum by Fox News or OANN or wherever, and that's all they need to believe it.

        56 votes
        1. smoontjes
          Link Parent
          Hopefully these US medias will follow Poland's example: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/13/polish-tv-presenter-apologises-lgbt-people-bart-staszewski Won't hold my breath because it...

          Hopefully these US medias will follow Poland's example:

          https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/13/polish-tv-presenter-apologises-lgbt-people-bart-staszewski

          Won't hold my breath because it seems like wishful thinking at this point. But surely there has to be a reckoning of some sort, at some point?

          13 votes
      2. [3]
        JamaicanSpiderman
        Link Parent
        I wouldn't be surprised. Some people don't care about his policies or personal life they just like him and or want to "stick one to the libs".

        I wouldn't be surprised. Some people don't care about his policies or personal life they just like him and or want to "stick one to the libs".

        20 votes
        1. [2]
          updawg
          Link Parent
          They legitimately do not care. Polls of conservative Christians say they don't think he's particularly religious or actually a good Christian or any of that, but they do think he is the person who...

          They legitimately do not care. Polls of conservative Christians say they don't think he's particularly religious or actually a good Christian or any of that, but they do think he is the person who will best defend their interests. Specifically, they say he is a "man of faith," but not actually personally religious. They "pointed to his “support for religious people, not his personal religiosity, as their reasoning for saying he is a man of faith,” according to the Deseret News," according to The Hill, according to me.

          25 votes
          1. boxer_dogs_dance
            Link Parent
            They point to emperors like Cyrus who supposedly did God's will

            They point to emperors like Cyrus who supposedly did God's will

            7 votes
    2. [24]
      Requirement
      Link Parent
      I didn't see it mentioned in the article, so perhaps someone can be of assistance: What do typical sentences look like for these crimes?

      I didn't see it mentioned in the article, so perhaps someone can be of assistance: What do typical sentences look like for these crimes?

      13 votes
      1. [14]
        updawg
        Link Parent
        Trump would be considered a first-time offender and it's a nonviolent crime, so it would probably not result in jail time even if you weren't the President. I'm not sure how there being 34 counts,...

        Trump would be considered a first-time offender and it's a nonviolent crime, so it would probably not result in jail time even if you weren't the President. I'm not sure how there being 34 counts, the multiple gag order fines, or the million other things Trump has done would change the calculus though.

        My gut--which is totally meaningless in every way--says that if Donald Trump was never president but was still found guilty of these crimes, he would receive a relatively lenient prison sentence plus some number of years of probation. He has been known as, at best, a slimy businessman for at least four decades, and as a "first-time" offender, I think the two would combine so that the judge would make an example of him both as a demonstration of how no one is above the law but also to show that just because you're...divisive...doesn't mean that the law is out to get you.

        But you can totally disregard that entire paragraph without losing anything of value whatsoever.

        38 votes
        1. [13]
          NoPants
          Link Parent
          Cohen was jailed for the same charges.

          Cohen was jailed for the same charges.

          15 votes
          1. [12]
            boxer_dogs_dance
            Link Parent
            Cohen is a lawyer and was violating professional ethics. I can see a judge going harder

            Cohen is a lawyer and was violating professional ethics. I can see a judge going harder

            20 votes
            1. [11]
              TanyaJLaird
              Link Parent
              OTOH, Trump conclusively proved during trial that only jail time actually has a chance of affecting his behavior. He kept violating his gag order, his conditions of bail. Fines never made him...

              OTOH, Trump conclusively proved during trial that only jail time actually has a chance of affecting his behavior. He kept violating his gag order, his conditions of bail. Fines never made him change his behavior. It took the threat of jail time to actually get him to stop violating those.

              So I could see the judge saying that any fines he could levy clearly wouldn't affect Trump. Instead sentencing him to a modest jail sentence of a few months.

              29 votes
              1. [10]
                updawg
                Link Parent
                I'm curious how a prison sentence would play out if he is reelected. Could they set it to not start until January 20, 2029? How would that play into Trump trying to retain power again like on...

                I'm curious how a prison sentence would play out if he is reelected. Could they set it to not start until January 20, 2029? How would that play into Trump trying to retain power again like on January 6?

                6 votes
                1. TanyaJLaird
                  Link Parent
                  I see no Constitutional issue. There's nothing that requires the president to perform their duties from the White House itself. A president could absolutely run their administration from jail....

                  I see no Constitutional issue. There's nothing that requires the president to perform their duties from the White House itself. A president could absolutely run their administration from jail. Whatever duties couldn't be performed from the jail cell could be temporarily delegated to the Vice President.

                  Moreover, this could very easily be handled by Section 3 of the 25th Amendment

                  Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.

                  The most straightforward way to handle an incarcerated president is to have their VP serve as acting president for the duration of their sentence. We don't need to turn the presidency into a literal get-out-of-jail-free card. If the president can't perform their duties, their duties get temporarily handed over to their VP. That is why we have a VP.

                  18 votes
                2. [4]
                  alden
                  Link Parent
                  If he were running for senate, the answer would be a bit more clear. Article 1, section 6: The constitution makes it clear that the usual privileges against arrest don't hold if a senator commits...

                  If he were running for senate, the answer would be a bit more clear. Article 1, section 6:

                  The Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.

                  The constitution makes it clear that the usual privileges against arrest don't hold if a senator commits a felony. Of course, we are not talking about a senator here. There is no analogous clause for the president.

                  9 votes
                  1. [3]
                    SteeeveTheSteve
                    Link Parent
                    We can only hope that's on someone's agenda to get through congress next year.

                    We can only hope that's on someone's agenda to get through congress next year.

                    1 vote
                    1. [2]
                      updawg
                      Link Parent
                      Are you saying to get a constitutional amendment through Congress and ratified by the states next year?

                      Are you saying to get a constitutional amendment through Congress and ratified by the states next year?

                      4 votes
                      1. SteeeveTheSteve
                        Link Parent
                        Oh no, just the proposal. It would take a while to get ratified by enough states.

                        Oh no, just the proposal. It would take a while to get ratified by enough states.

                        1 vote
                3. [4]
                  Eji1700
                  Link Parent
                  He would likely pardon himself.

                  He would likely pardon himself.

                  1. [3]
                    boxer_dogs_dance
                    Link Parent
                    For a state charge? If laws are enforced, he can't

                    For a state charge? If laws are enforced, he can't

                    21 votes
                    1. updawg
                      Link Parent
                      Even if laws aren't enforced, he can't. He just straight up can't do that lol even if he says he has pardoned himself and everyone acts like he doesn't have to go to prison, he hasn't actually...

                      Even if laws aren't enforced, he can't. He just straight up can't do that lol even if he says he has pardoned himself and everyone acts like he doesn't have to go to prison, he hasn't actually done so.

                      And it hasn't even been settled if a president can pardon himself in the first place.

                      10 votes
                    2. Eji1700
                      Link Parent
                      Ah right i forgot this one is state.

                      Ah right i forgot this one is state.

                      1 vote
      2. [7]
        entitled-entilde
        Link Parent
        On manifold people are betting on the sentence. Probably you should give it a few hours more for the odds to stabilize. But so far the wisdom of the crowd is saying a large fine and probation.

        On manifold people are betting on the sentence. Probably you should give it a few hours more for the odds to stabilize. But so far the wisdom of the crowd is saying a large fine and probation.

        9 votes
        1. [2]
          TanyaJLaird
          Link Parent
          I'm not sure about the fine aspect. Normally, yes. But the judge here has a damn good argument of why jail time should be assigned. Trump repeatedly violated the conditions of his bail, in the...

          I'm not sure about the fine aspect. Normally, yes. But the judge here has a damn good argument of why jail time should be assigned. Trump repeatedly violated the conditions of his bail, in the form of gag order violations. He ignored fine after fine. It took actually being threatened with jail time to get him to stop.

          He has shown, in that very same courtroom, that his behavior is only affected by the threat of jail time. He has also shown a complete lack of remorse and has constantly disrespected the court and the rule of law. Yes, he's a first-time offender, but there are many other factors leaning towards the prison direction. The judge knows that the only thing that will actually affect Trump is a jail sentence or community service of some sort, and he can consider that in Trump's sentencing.

          17 votes
          1. redwall_hp
            Link Parent
            Most people would get jail time for the number of times he was held in contempt during court sessions alone. He needs to get the maximum that the judge can reasonably dispense in this case....

            Most people would get jail time for the number of times he was held in contempt during court sessions alone. He needs to get the maximum that the judge can reasonably dispense in this case.

            Similarly, people have been executed for Espionage Act violations far more minor than his toilet full of documents. There is no justice if he doesn't spend the rest of his life in prison for his various crimes.

            16 votes
        2. [3]
          patience_limited
          Link Parent
          Can I just say that I would take a certain amount of delight in a sentence of a few thousand hours of community service, no cameras allowed? Maybe work in soup kitchens, picking up freeway trash,...

          Can I just say that I would take a certain amount of delight in a sentence of a few thousand hours of community service, no cameras allowed? Maybe work in soup kitchens, picking up freeway trash, rehabbing houses for the elderly and destitute? It wouldn't undo a fraction of the harm Trump has caused, but it might keep him from doing more harm. It's a fantasy of course, due to his advanced age. [wink]

          12 votes
          1. terr
            Link Parent
            Hell, set him to work building houses like Jimmy Carter! Might give him a taste of what real presidential duty and service looks like.

            Hell, set him to work building houses like Jimmy Carter! Might give him a taste of what real presidential duty and service looks like.

            10 votes
          2. TanyaJLaird
            Link Parent
            Give him community service. But of course, for security reasons, he'll probably need to be isolated from the public. So I suggest janitorial duties...at immigrant shelters.

            Give him community service. But of course, for security reasons, he'll probably need to be isolated from the public. So I suggest janitorial duties...at immigrant shelters.

            8 votes
        3. gpl
          Link Parent
          My totally off the cuff guess is that he will get a fine and house arrest, but that the latter will not be enforced in Florida, or something along those lines.

          My totally off the cuff guess is that he will get a fine and house arrest, but that the latter will not be enforced in Florida, or something along those lines.

          7 votes
  2. [6]
    Foreigner
    Link
    Emphasis mine. I weep for the world's future knowing people like this exist in large numbers.

    The latest NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll, from May, showed that 17% of voters said they would be less likely to vote for Trump if he is convicted, while 15% said they would be more likely to vote for him. And 67% of registered voters nationally say it makes no difference to their vote if Trump is found guilty in his hush money trial.

    Emphasis mine. I weep for the world's future knowing people like this exist in large numbers.

    47 votes
    1. [4]
      babypuncher
      Link Parent
      I have a feeling that the people in the 15% camp were never not going to vote for Trump, whereas the people in the 17% were more on the fence.

      I have a feeling that the people in the 15% camp were never not going to vote for Trump, whereas the people in the 17% were more on the fence.

      53 votes
      1. cloud_loud
        Link Parent
        Yeah, the MAGA base is nothing if not fervent.

        Yeah, the MAGA base is nothing if not fervent.

        15 votes
      2. [2]
        nosewings
        Link Parent
        It's possible that, while they would never vote for anyone else, they might just not vote for one reason or another. At the same time, I frankly expect that this will be seen as an escalation, and...

        It's possible that, while they would never vote for anyone else, they might just not vote for one reason or another.

        At the same time, I frankly expect that this will be seen as an escalation, and the only direction available for the MAGA crowd will be further escalation. Imagine what the mood could be like at the RNC if Trump is unable to attend due to house arrest.

        13 votes
        1. Promonk
          Link Parent
          They'll probably set up another golden idol for photo ops and just have their God Emperor Skype in his acceptance speech. Considering the naked derision the man shows for his supporters, I bet...

          They'll probably set up another golden idol for photo ops and just have their God Emperor Skype in his acceptance speech.

          Considering the naked derision the man shows for his supporters, I bet he'd be glad for the excuse to stay home for the convention–if it weren't for the fact he'd be missing out on another opportunity to have throngs of adoring little faschlings tonguing his balls in person.

          12 votes
    2. Requirement
      Link Parent
      I am interested in two things: I'm interested in what the wording of the question was. I suspect it could have been written in such a way that many Trump supporters could say "I'm currently at a 9...

      I am interested in two things:

      1. I'm interested in what the wording of the question was. I suspect it could have been written in such a way that many Trump supporters could say "I'm currently at a 9 and a guilty verdict would make me a 10" in likelihood to vote for him. So, potentially not as scary.
      2. I am very interested why those 17 percent are less likely to vote for him? Are they republican voters who, for whatever reason, see this as betrayal but nothing else Trump has done? Are they, as above, democrats who weren't going to vote for him anyway?

      I guess I'll keep my reputation as the guy who is perplexed by undecided voters.

      20 votes
  3. [9]
    JXM
    Link
    Good. It's not a difficult case. No one is above justice, not even the president (despite what he might want to believe). We'll see how this all plays out in the long run. The appeals will take...

    Good. It's not a difficult case. No one is above justice, not even the president (despite what he might want to believe).

    We'll see how this all plays out in the long run. The appeals will take forever.

    36 votes
    1. [2]
      ComicSans72
      Link Parent
      It's weird though. The precedent is now, "if you cheat to win an election you can't be held accountable until after and even then you're free to run and cheat again if you want. Maybe we'll fine you"

      It's weird though. The precedent is now, "if you cheat to win an election you can't be held accountable until after and even then you're free to run and cheat again if you want. Maybe we'll fine you"

      25 votes
      1. NaraVara
        Link Parent
        This is why democracy can’t be preserved by litigiousness and proceduralism. If the underlying democratic spirit isn’t there these rituals become hollow.

        This is why democracy can’t be preserved by litigiousness and proceduralism. If the underlying democratic spirit isn’t there these rituals become hollow.

        29 votes
    2. [5]
      skreba
      Link Parent
      At least he won't be able to vote for himself in November.

      At least he won't be able to vote for himself in November.

      7 votes
      1. [3]
        DefinitelyNotAFae
        Link Parent
        He will, because Florida grants the state the conviction is in priority, And NY (rightly in my opinion) allows felons to vote.

        He will, because Florida grants the state the conviction is in priority, And NY (rightly in my opinion) allows felons to vote.

        32 votes
        1. [2]
          updawg
          Link Parent
          I was going to say that one good that that could come of it is at least conservative states restoring felons rights to vote. I'm not sure I'm 100% sold on thinking it's wrong to restrict felons...

          I was going to say that one good that that could come of it is at least conservative states restoring felons rights to vote. I'm not sure I'm 100% sold on thinking it's wrong to restrict felons from voting while they are in prison because they have broken the social contract (or at least the courts have found that they broke it), but they absolutely should have it after they have served their sentence, and there are strong ethical problems with taking away the right to vote, including that there is no one to speak on behalf of the prisoners and the fact that they still get counted in the voting population for districting and tax distribution purposes.

          16 votes
          1. blindmikey
            Link Parent
            Except Florida also went out of their way to fool Floridian felons to vote so that they could lock them up again....

            Except Florida also went out of their way to fool Floridian felons to vote so that they could lock them up again.

            https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/florida-gov-desantis-voter-fraud-arrests-bodycam-video/

            Heard ex-felons could vote - they were allowed to register, put their SSN in the system, were issued voter registration cards, weren't ever denied, were allowed to cast a vote, and then months later busted for it.

            26 votes
      2. psi
        Link Parent
        On the contrary. Unless he's literally in prison on election day, he'll be able to cast a vote in Florida.

        On the contrary. Unless he's literally in prison on election day, he'll be able to cast a vote in Florida.

        7 votes
    3. DarthYoshiBoy
      Link Parent
      -People whose breath smells suspiciously of "the mushroom character from Mario Kart"

      ...but but but but but... How many other people have broken the law by lying and have never been prosecuted? If the law isn't being applied clearly and consistently in 100% of cases where it's applicable, then this clearly is just a witch hunt and he never would have been prosecuted if the state AG didn't hate him.

      -People whose breath smells suspiciously of "the mushroom character from Mario Kart"

  4. [92]
    DonaldandDavidStott
    Link
    What's the general feeling in the US about this? I'm assuming that existing divisions will widen, but are there many in the centre who will sway one way or another? I find this both fascinating...

    What's the general feeling in the US about this? I'm assuming that existing divisions will widen, but are there many in the centre who will sway one way or another?

    I find this both fascinating and terrifying in equal measure.

    17 votes
    1. [60]
      EsteeBestee
      Link Parent
      The majority of us freaking hate this dude. There are still tens of millions of people here who are going to support and/or vote for whoever the republican candidate is, even if it's a felon...

      The majority of us freaking hate this dude. There are still tens of millions of people here who are going to support and/or vote for whoever the republican candidate is, even if it's a felon Trump, but reminder that he lost the popular vote and that's with us knowing that younger (and presumably more left leaning) voters have lower turnouts than older voters.

      There will absolutely be fanatics trying to support him still and our justice system and voting system could still fail us to the point where he is re-elected, but no matter what polls show, the majority of us want this dude to just go away.

      An alarming number of people that usually vote republican subscribe to sports team politics and would vote for trump no matter what he did or said. So Trump being convicted is unlikely to swing things that far from if he weren't convicted, though if he actually sees jail time for this and cannot serve as a president, that would obviously shake things up considering the republican party is putting all their eggs in the trump basket this year.

      45 votes
      1. [38]
        NaraVara
        Link Parent
        I don’t know if I’d characterize it as purely tribalism. There’s a whole bunch of cultural and psychological reasons why this is couldn’t happen but try this thought experiment. Imagine an...
        • Exemplary

        An alarming number of people that usually vote republican subscribe to sports team politics and would vote for trump no matter what he did or said.

        I don’t know if I’d characterize it as purely tribalism. There’s a whole bunch of cultural and psychological reasons why this is couldn’t happen but try this thought experiment.

        Imagine an election where the personal virtues were reversed but the policy preferences were aligned with you. That is to say a generic Democrat was running on trans rights, housing affordability, labor rights, universal healthcare, and whatever other general pet issues you have. But they were also convicted of election rigging and was a generally corrupt narcissist. And then you had a generic Republican who was a virtuous and upstanding person with an unblemished ethical record but also ran on a policy platform of being homophobic, racist, and misogynistic while redistributing all the income to the wealthy.

        It’d be a hard choice, but for a lot of evangelicals that’s basically the choice they see in front of them. It’s easy for us to criticize because we see their world view as being noxious from top to bottom so we wouldn’t mind if they lose the existential battle for how society ought to be shaped. But they clearly have opposite feelings about it.

        47 votes
        1. [5]
          Wes
          Link Parent
          I like the point you're making but it feels a little contradictory. Can a candidate be virtuous and upstanding while also promoting racist and homophobic policies? I understand why it's important...

          I like the point you're making but it feels a little contradictory. Can a candidate be virtuous and upstanding while also promoting racist and homophobic policies? I understand why it's important to not ascribe morality to general policy (eg. increasing tariffs or reducing immigration), but I feel like bigotries in general are much closer aligned to the ethics of a person.

          If I alter your example to where "the other guy" is a great person, but I disagree with their general policies, I'd not be completely against voting for them. Tact and how we treat each other is important, and they're setting the example for the country. So yes, I'd consider changing my vote.

          Or if I feel the policies I do disagree with are too important to ignore, I may simply abstain from voting in that election. Yes I lose the ability to complain about the results when I do so, but a low-voter turnout can also send a message that voters are unhappy, and that too influences future elections.

          I appreciate your thought experiment though, and I think your point is true for a lot of people. "Hold your nose and vote" is an unfortunately common sentiment.

          31 votes
          1. [2]
            norb
            Link Parent
            If by "influence elections" you mean "lets politicians know they can get away with more because they are not held accountable" I would 100% agree with you there.

            but a low-voter turnout can also send a message that voters are unhappy, and that too influences future elections.

            If by "influence elections" you mean "lets politicians know they can get away with more because they are not held accountable" I would 100% agree with you there.

            8 votes
            1. Wes
              Link Parent
              No, I don't mean that. Voter turnout is a very important metric in elections. Politicians spend a lot of money and effort not only in trying to turn votes, but in getting people to the polls. This...

              No, I don't mean that. Voter turnout is a very important metric in elections. Politicians spend a lot of money and effort not only in trying to turn votes, but in getting people to the polls. This is often a major focus of advertising, and is a large consideration when choosing the issues that campaigns will focus on.

              You can expect that abortion will play a very large role in the upcoming Democrat campaign strategy. Not because it's likely to change any minds, but because it has so much potential in driving voter turnout.

              4 votes
          2. Omnicrola
            Link Parent
            Devils advocate: from their point of view, based on the values and tropes present in their cultural bubble, what they're advocating for isn't homophobic or racist, it's just the way things should be.

            Can a candidate be virtuous and upstanding while also promoting racist and homophobic policies?

            Devils advocate: from their point of view, based on the values and tropes present in their cultural bubble, what they're advocating for isn't homophobic or racist, it's just the way things should be.

            3 votes
          3. NaraVara
            Link Parent
            I agree that’s why I said there’s a lot of reasons it couldn’t really happen that way. But it’s partly because we’re just sort of lucky to have the Democratic coalition we have. Not too long ago...

            I like the point you're making but it feels a little contradictory. Can a candidate be virtuous and upstanding while also promoting racist and homophobic policies?

            I agree that’s why I said there’s a lot of reasons it couldn’t really happen that way. But it’s partly because we’re just sort of lucky to have the Democratic coalition we have. Not too long ago historically though, the Republicans were the party of rapacious capitalism but also fairly cosmopolitan outlooks with some openness to civil rights and feminist principles. Meanwhile the Democrats had a dominant contingent of virulent Jim Crow racists but were also pro-farmer and pro-labor. Thankfully party polarization wasn’t as strong then and there was a lot of crossover in policy preferences across regions and between parties. But party compositions like that with the levels of internal ideological consistency we have today would make for way more difficult choices in the voting booth.

            3 votes
        2. EsteeBestee
          Link Parent
          I do believe you that some republican voters have the point of view you're outlining. There are definitely some who recognize the corruption of the republican party and how vile some politicians...

          I do believe you that some republican voters have the point of view you're outlining. There are definitely some who recognize the corruption of the republican party and how vile some politicians can be, but they vote for them anyways since they're voting on their issues. However, I've met plenty who, even if they're nice people when you talk to them for 10 minutes, become spiteful, evil people whenever politics is brought up, where their media sources have completely brainwashed them into voting against everyone's interest, including their own, because "that will show the wokes" or whatever. I won't pretend that all republican voters are like that, but I've met enough like that where I don't really feel sorry for them or empathize with them, since they're the same people that will never take the time to actually read up on issues they're voting for or read up on the politicians they're voting for, they see "R" on the ballot and check it. Most I've talked to are entirely unreasonable people when it comes to politics, they don't want nuance or debate, they want to plug their ears, laugh at the "wokes", and take rights from minorities. A large number of people have basically been brainwashed into always checking off that R, no matter how bad the policies are for that representative and no matter how hateful they are, though you are right that it isn't all of them, and maybe not even most of them.

          12 votes
        3. [2]
          updawg
          Link Parent
          I think your thought experiment is decent. If someone promised to uphold everything that I value but was a scumbag, it could be a hard decision. The problem is that the Republicans still talk...

          I think your thought experiment is decent. If someone promised to uphold everything that I value but was a scumbag, it could be a hard decision.

          The problem is that the Republicans still talk about Trump like he's the greatest thing ever. It's not just "fine, I'll vote for him because he doesn't think baby murder should be legal"; it for much further than that to acting like he is the Second Coming.

          And when I do talk to people who say they hate him (generally not people who seem to directly identify with the GOP even though they are certainly conservative), they always say they will vote for Trump because they think Biden is even worse because he's [a dementia patient/hates Israel/too old] and they never admit it's because Trump is the one who will try to ban abortion, etc. It always just comes back to Biden.

          I would respect them if they said that they think banning baby murder is more important than preserving the country. I would not necessarily agree with them, but I might hold that position if one side said they wanted legalized actual murder. But they just never say that. It's always "Trump is so great" if they're Republicans and parroting Trump's claims about Biden if they are "independents" who just happen to vote Trump every time.

          9 votes
          1. NaraVara
            Link Parent
            Yeah our media ecosystem is less concerned with informing people than giving them canned arguments or a permissions structure to do and say awful things while still feeling like you’re a good...

            Yeah our media ecosystem is less concerned with informing people than giving them canned arguments or a permissions structure to do and say awful things while still feeling like you’re a good person. It’s gross.

            3 votes
        4. Eric_the_Cerise
          Link Parent
          Nice thought experiment. I quickly realize I would vote for the person I thought would be best for the country/world (as I interpret it, of course), and the hell with their moral/legal failings...

          Nice thought experiment.

          I quickly realize I would vote for the person I thought would be best for the country/world (as I interpret it, of course), and the hell with their moral/legal failings ... with the exception being that I have to actually believe they intend to pursue the things they promise.

          This is why I supported Bill Clinton (even 'after'), and simultanouesly, why I didn't have any confidence in Hilary.

          Edit: Even in some twisted Mirror Universe where I wanted the things Trump promises ... I still can't see myself trusting or believing anything he promised ... though I suppose I would still have even less confidance in "the other guy". I suppose I'd vote strategically, or go the John Bolton route (write-in candidate), or just stay home.

          5 votes
        5. [6]
          teaearlgraycold
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          You say that as if there weren’t 4 years in which to pick a new candidate, and an entire primary season that was essentially skipped to give Trump his spot on the ballot. I’m sure a number of...

          You say that as if there weren’t 4 years in which to pick a new candidate, and an entire primary season that was essentially skipped to give Trump his spot on the ballot.

          I’m sure a number of Americans will feel the way you describe when they vote this November. But they didn’t seem too loud about it the last few years. It’s more of a cult than a party.

          Edit: Honestly I fully believe most of them want a dictator. Trump’s slimiest actions are a pro for his voters.

          9 votes
          1. [5]
            NaraVara
            Link Parent
            The number of people who even pay attention to primaries more than a week ahead of time are a teeny tiny portion of the electorate. The number of people who can actually make these decisions are...

            The number of people who even pay attention to primaries more than a week ahead of time are a teeny tiny portion of the electorate. The number of people who can actually make these decisions are basically a rounding error. Most people are just gonna take the choices presented to them without thinking too much about how the choices got narrowed down.

            3 votes
            1. [4]
              teaearlgraycold
              Link Parent
              That's fair. But I haven't seen any Republicans complaining about Trump in the last 4 years. Being Republican and anti-Trump is a fairly niche opinion in 2024.

              That's fair. But I haven't seen any Republicans complaining about Trump in the last 4 years. Being Republican and anti-Trump is a fairly niche opinion in 2024.

              4 votes
              1. NaraVara
                Link Parent
                A lot of Republicans I know have simply stopped talking about Presidential level politics and demur sheepishly whenever he comes up. But I have strong suspicions that they’re voting for him in the...

                A lot of Republicans I know have simply stopped talking about Presidential level politics and demur sheepishly whenever he comes up. But I have strong suspicions that they’re voting for him in the privacy of the voting both.

                9 votes
              2. MimicSquid
                Link Parent
                My in-laws are Republicans, and they have nothing but visceral hate for the man. I haven't asked who they're going to vote for, but they were definitely celebrating his conviction. The 20% or so...

                My in-laws are Republicans, and they have nothing but visceral hate for the man. I haven't asked who they're going to vote for, but they were definitely celebrating his conviction. The 20% or so of people who were still casting a vote for Haley months after she stopped campaigning are indicative that hating him is a minority opinion among Republicans, but it's not nobody.

                7 votes
              3. sparksbet
                Link Parent
                My family is all Republicans besides me, and even the ones who didn't jump ship in 2016 or 2020 are expressing their distaste for Trump. Not loudly or in the open, ofc, bc voting GOP is basically...

                My family is all Republicans besides me, and even the ones who didn't jump ship in 2016 or 2020 are expressing their distaste for Trump. Not loudly or in the open, ofc, bc voting GOP is basically a religious tenant in their social circles. And who knows whether it'll actually translate to votes. But there is a nonzero amount of Republican voters who don't like Trump.

                2 votes
        6. [22]
          kovboydan
          Link Parent
          Why wouldn’t a generic Democrat just realign with the Green Party, Justice Party, or …? If the party you generally supports ends up putting someone on the ballot that you can’t “support” as a...

          Why wouldn’t a generic Democrat just realign with the Green Party, Justice Party, or …?

          If the party you generally supports ends up putting someone on the ballot that you can’t “support” as a person - even if you support the party’s platform, assuming they have a platform - isn’t the logical thing to do to just vote for the next closest thing?

          3 votes
          1. [19]
            NaraVara
            Link Parent
            No because we have a two party system that happens to have a few professional cranks who pretend to be third parties but don’t actually have any of the party infrastructure to govern because...

            No because we have a two party system that happens to have a few professional cranks who pretend to be third parties but don’t actually have any of the party infrastructure to govern because they’re purely fundraising machines.

            A vote isn’t a statement that you’re gonna Stan for some dude. It’s hiring a person to do a job. If the stakes are such that whoever ends up doing that job is going to perpetuate or begin a process that will suppress things you view as core to who you are or negatively impact your livelihood then performative wank voting is the same as putting that person in charge. You can only afford to hold your nose in that way if these issues are more theoretical positions you hold than actual skin you have in the game.

            18 votes
            1. [17]
              kovboydan
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              Taking the hypothetical as written, we have to assume a generic Democrat - convicted for an election rigging related crime - makes it through the primary. It’s quite an extreme assumption, and I...
              • Exemplary

              That is to say a generic Democrat was running on trans rights, housing affordability, labor rights, universal healthcare, and whatever other general pet issues you have. But they were also convicted of election rigging and was a generally corrupt narcissist.

              Taking the hypothetical as written, we have to assume a generic Democrat - convicted for an election rigging related crime - makes it through the primary. It’s quite an extreme assumption, and I can’t personally imagine it happening, but assuming it did.

              The choices are:

              1. support a candidate that is convicted of undermining our democratic process,
              2. don’t vote at all or vote a candidate running “on a policy platform of being homophobic, racist, and misogynistic while redistributing all the income to the wealthy,” or
              3. vote for a new party or existing third party with a policy platform and candidate you support.

              The first option seems at best to encourage authoritarianism and at worst actively support it.

              The second option seems to at best inactively support a platform seen as harmful and at worst actively support a platform seen as harmful.

              The third option seems to at worst reject authoritarianism and at best elect a candidate running on a platform you support.

              If the Bull Party could #YOLO itself to almost 30% of vote in 1912 just because Teddy’s feelings were hurt, why couldn’t a decent candidate on a decent platform do better in 2024 given those 3 choices?

              PS: It is possible to have skin in the game and reject all forms of authoritarianism. It’s probably easier to do if you tend to take a longer view instead of a short one. Or you’re more intimately familiar with how things are going in other parts of the world, like places where designing those “I did that” stickers can result in arrest.

              13 votes
              1. [9]
                TangibleLight
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                The problem is that, with a two party system, it will at best have the same outcome as 2. It might feel a bit better, because it's not exactly inaction, but the only differentiation to 2 is the...

                The third option seems to at worst reject authoritarianism and at best elect a candidate running on a platform you support.

                The problem is that, with a two party system, it will at best have the same outcome as 2. It might feel a bit better, because it's not exactly inaction, but the only differentiation to 2 is the performance of it.

                Realistically, there are two choices. Opting not to vote (or voting for a third party) is equivalent to selecting the winner. Morally, I think it's equivalent to selecting the candidate you expect to win.

                If the Bull Party could #YOLO itself to almost 30% of vote in 1912 just because Teddy’s feelings were hurt, why couldn’t a decent candidate on a decent platform do better in 2024 given those 3 choices?

                All that accomplished was to split the vote and give the win to the opposition.

                If Democrats split and a significant portion voted for a third party, that just gives the win to the Republican. Choosing to split is equivalent to choosing the Republican.

                Taking the hypothetical as written, we have to assume a generic Democrat - convicted for an election rigging related crime - makes it through the primary. It’s quite an extreme assumption, and I can’t personally imagine it happening, but assuming it did.

                The solution to the impossible problem is to vote in the primary. In the case where your party chooses the bad candidate (or when your party is the incumbant), I don't think there is a good answer. Voting for the opposition might be the right one. Voting for a third party might be the right one. They will have the same outcome.

                10 votes
                1. [8]
                  vagueallusion
                  Link Parent
                  A part of the true solution (IMHO) would be to ban primaries and maybe even candidates ability to campaign under a specific party flag. Something like what California did in the 80s with elections...

                  A part of the true solution (IMHO) would be to ban primaries and maybe even candidates ability to campaign under a specific party flag.

                  Something like what California did in the 80s with elections for Judges.

                  I know it's a pipe dream because
                  a, it's probably unconstitutional, and b maintaining the two party system is the one thing that Democrats and Republicans agree on.

                  Still, I can't help but dream about what US politics would look like without a two-party system, and without Citizens United.

                  3 votes
                  1. [7]
                    TangibleLight
                    Link Parent
                    Even if you ban formal parties, informal ones would come up. Coordinated votes will always beat split ones, even if the split votes generally agree on policy. The root issue is the...

                    Even if you ban formal parties, informal ones would come up. Coordinated votes will always beat split ones, even if the split votes generally agree on policy.

                    The root issue is the first-past-the-post voting system. There are alternative voting systems that do allow viable third party votes without also voting against the other generally-aligned parties.

                    See the CGP gray video that @RobotOverlord525 shared, it's really excellent.

                    https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo


                    All that aside, I do agree. Just nitpicking that banning parties isn't a fix, it's a fundamental problem of the voting system and we need something different.

                    10 votes
                    1. [5]
                      NaraVara
                      Link Parent
                      I don’t actually think having more viable third parties will help anything. The Democrats and Republicans are pretty well reflective of the median voter I feel. Most of people’s frustrations with...

                      The root issue is the first-past-the-post voting system. There are alternative voting systems that do allow viable third party votes without also voting against the other generally-aligned parties.

                      I don’t actually think having more viable third parties will help anything. The Democrats and Republicans are pretty well reflective of the median voter I feel. Most of people’s frustrations with the 2 party system are actually their frustrations with who the gettable voters are.

                      A multi party system just does the coalition building after the fact, when you sort of know the relative strengths of all the factions. Our two party system does them ex post, where the relative strength of the instra-party coalitions are set up before people vote. I actually think our ex ante form of organizing advantages the left more than it disadvantages it, it’s just that leftists have a dramatically overexaggereated sense of how representative they are. I, personally, think a multi party system in America would collapse into fascism even more rapidly than ours has been.

                      3 votes
                      1. [4]
                        TangibleLight
                        (edited )
                        Link Parent
                        Eh, I'd still expect there to be two dominant parties. The difference is just that a minority (third or smaller) party can still have representation, without being completely overrun by the two...

                        Eh, I'd still expect there to be two dominant parties. The difference is just that a minority (third or smaller) party can still have representation, without being completely overrun by the two dominant parties. I also would expect the two dominant parties to trend more moderate, and third or fourth parties to trend more extreme. Any president elected would certainly only be of one of the dominant (moderate) parties, so you shouldn't expect an extreme minority party to get the win. Our current system forces the dominant parties to trend more extreme - or, rather, a dominant party must trend extreme if any significant part of its base does. It can't afford to remain moderate and fragment.

                        I actually think our ex ante form of organizing advantages the left more than it disadvantages it

                        I'm not sure I follow but I'm curious. Could you elaborate?

                        it’s just that leftists have a dramatically overexaggereated sense of how representative they are

                        Probably. I think we also have an oversimplified view of the "median conservative". Clearly we have much nuance in our views and could be better represented by multiple parties, but they are just Trump. This is obviously not true. In a system that encourages smaller parties, I would fully expect multiple right-leaning parties to appear, and gain representation. There'd probably be some "MAGA Party", lead by a character like Trump, with a few seats in congress. That is fair. With a multi party system I'd expect their representation to be closer to the actual size of their base, rather than the entirety of the current Republican party, which is forced to back Trump for fear of fragmenting their vote.

                        I also suspect the current "median conservative" has a similarly oversimplified view of the "median liberal". And, if we had a multi party system, I'd expect the dominant liberal party to trend more moderate, and a smaller "Socialist Party" led by a character like Sanders to appear, with an appropriately small number of seats in Congress.

                        I, personally, think a multi party system in America would collapse into fascism even more rapidly than ours has been.

                        Again, I don't think I follow. I suspect that might come from my expectation the dominant parties in a multi-party system to trend more moderate, and you may not agree? Really not sure, but I'm curious if you could elaborate.

                        4 votes
                        1. [3]
                          NaraVara
                          Link Parent
                          In practice this isn’t necessarily what happens in multi-party countries. Instead of parties sorting by sincere ideological convictions what usually ends up happening is a bunch of parties that...

                          The difference is just that a minority (third or smaller) party can still have representation, without being completely overrun by the two dominant parties. I also would expect the two dominant parties to trend more moderate, and third or fourth parties to trend more extreme.

                          In practice this isn’t necessarily what happens in multi-party countries. Instead of parties sorting by sincere ideological convictions what usually ends up happening is a bunch of parties that organize around specific culty personalities or identity groups. So they don’t go fringey, you end up with a bunch of power brokers for individual communities being set up as “spokespeople” to transact with one of the big tent political alliances. So practically you’re just doing the negotiating ex ante. The various parties go in an election, they each get some percentage of seats, and then based on the number of seats they have they determine their negotiating position in deciding how to form the government in an alliance with the other parties until they get to a majority.

                          In our 2-party system you do that negotiation ex post. The various factions and identity groups and ideological positions negotiate through candidate selections, fundraising, and primaries/caucuses processes to win or lose. By the time you get to a general election the shape of the electoral coalition you’ll be putting in charge is already composed and you, as a voter, sign off on the whole package.

                          With a multi party system I'd expect their representation to be closer to the actual size of their base, rather than the entirety of the current Republican party, which is forced to back Trump for fear of fragmenting their vote.

                          Looking at multi-party democracies in other large, highly pluralistic societies this doesn’t happen. Most voters don’t sort ideologically, they sort by whoever in their community has a lot of pull. So you don’t get various flavors of “liberalism” and “conservatism.” You get instead parties around “Black people” or “Farmers” or “Unionists” or “Evangelicals.” They will make weird alliances between each other with the goal of maximizing the advantage of their interest groups. They won’t form into a coherent or broad-based agenda that can span across interest groups the way our system sort of forces them to.

                          This is why I think we’d have collapsed into fascism faster. Multi-party systems inherently end towards corruption because of how fractious and unstable the political alliances are. Once that happens, if things are fractious enough, the only way to get anything done is to start centralizing authority and creating strongmen, which is what happens. That’s what’s happening right now, because of Congressional gridlock.

                          1 vote
                          1. [2]
                            TangibleLight
                            Link Parent
                            I'm still parsing through this, but I want to reply real quick and say that this part in particular really got to me, and now reading your prior comment makes more sense. I don't have a good...

                            I'm still parsing through this, but I want to reply real quick and say that this part in particular really got to me, and now reading your prior comment makes more sense.

                            Most voters don’t sort ideologically, they sort by whoever in their community has a lot of pull. So you don’t get various flavors of “liberalism” and “conservatism.” You get instead parties around “Black people” or “Farmers” or “Unionists” or “Evangelicals.” They will make weird alliances between each other with the goal of maximizing the advantage of their interest groups.

                            I don't have a good response. I agree it's better for the parties to sort ideologically, and I see your argument that our current system forces them to do that. But our current system also forces the dominant party to trend extreme when a fringe group within it threatens to fracture.

                            So how do you encourage the parties to sort ideologically while also providing a viable outlet for fringe groups to get fair representation so they don't pull the dominant parties along with them?

                            I don't know. I doubt it can be done with FPTP as a general framework, but you're arguing that any other framework would break ideological sorting...

                            1. NaraVara
                              Link Parent
                              The thing is the dominant electoral coalition will still end up hostage to whichever fringe party gets to kingmaker status. Like in the UK, UKIP has completely FUBARed the Tories because of their...

                              But our current system also forces the dominant party to trend extreme when a fringe group within it threatens to fracture.

                              The thing is the dominant electoral coalition will still end up hostage to whichever fringe party gets to kingmaker status. Like in the UK, UKIP has completely FUBARed the Tories because of their dependence on them to form a government. Even after UKIP and Farage faded out the mainstream of the party beclowned itself trying to win over those voters.

                              1 vote
                    2. vagueallusion
                      Link Parent
                      I'm agree on all counts. I wouldn't expect banning parties to eliminate virtual party lines but I do think it would demand voters at least know a name when they go into vote rather then just vote...

                      I'm agree on all counts. I wouldn't expect banning parties to eliminate virtual party lines but I do think it would demand voters at least know a name when they go into vote rather then just vote for the D or R candidates.

                      1 vote
              2. RobotOverlord525
                Link Parent
                CGP Grey has an old video (I can't believe it's 13 years old now) that explains why option #3 doesn't work under first past the post. It's pretty great.

                CGP Grey has an old video (I can't believe it's 13 years old now) that explains why option #3 doesn't work under first past the post. It's pretty great.

                6 votes
              3. [3]
                kovboydan
                Link Parent
                I’m not going to @ everyone who replied to my comment above, but if you’re one of them: Your comments are appreciated. I’m concerned many of you didn’t reply based on the hypothetical. We aren’t...

                I’m not going to @ everyone who replied to my comment above, but if you’re one of them:

                1. Your comments are appreciated.
                2. I’m concerned many of you didn’t reply based on the hypothetical. We aren’t discussing the actual election in 2024, 2020, or 2016. The Democrat in the hypothetical is a Sith Lord. The Republican in the hypothetical is…well honestly it’s hard to think of one, but let’s go with Larry Hogan.
                3. With #2 above in mind, FPTP, holding your nose, etc. are irrelevant to the hypothetical. In hypothetical land, many of you seem to be suggesting that voting for a Sith Lord is the logical thing to do for Democrats. The real life equivalent of that position is that voting for Trump is logical thing to do for Republicans.
                4. It’s never logical, reasonable, or justifiable to vote for an authoritarian. In the hypothetical, Democrats vote for a 3rd party, enjoy the benefits of not being under an increasingly authoritarian regime, and advocate and organize for 4 years. They don’t throw in the towel on democracy. If you disagree and think voting for a Sith Lord in the hypothetical is the logical thing to do….you might want to take a look at what color your light saber is.
                6 votes
                1. [2]
                  TangibleLight
                  (edited )
                  Link Parent
                  My real point on adressing FPTP is that there are not three options, there are two: Vote for an authoritarian Vote for a bigot Any third or fourth option, while it might feel different, is really...

                  My real point on adressing FPTP is that there are not three options, there are two:

                  • Vote for an authoritarian
                  • Vote for a bigot

                  Any third or fourth option, while it might feel different, is really just equivalent to one of those two.

                  I agree it's always better not to vote for the authoritarian, in order to preserve your ability to vote in the future.

                  However, if you're a member of some group that the bigot is intolerant of, the choice is less clear. Say you have an interest in reproductive rights, and the bigot challenges those but the authoritarian doesn't. Say you are not white, and the bigot is a white supremacist but the authoritarian isn't. You either sacrifice rights in the next term, or you sacrifice different rights in future terms.

                  [Edit, to support the hypothetical: Say all your income comes from capital gains, and the bigot wants to take that away but the authoritarian doesn't. Say <you have identity X> and the bigot <is intolerant of X> but the authoritarian isn't.]

                  In the hypothetical you can say it's always better not to vote for the authoritarian. In the hypothetical, I agree. But in practice the choice is not so clear.

                  4 votes
                  1. TangibleLight
                    Link Parent
                    I forgot to address: I suspect this is why RNC leadership has gone all-in on supporting Trump rather than catering to moderate conservatives. The calculus is it's better to keep Trump's base...

                    I forgot to address:

                    The real life equivalent of that position is that voting for Trump is logical thing to do for Republicans.

                    I suspect this is why RNC leadership has gone all-in on supporting Trump rather than catering to moderate conservatives. The calculus is it's better to keep Trump's base on-board, rather than risk fragmenting and giving the win to Democrats.

                    Remember, a split vote always loses. Even if the split voters generally agree on policy. Even if the split voters outnumber the coordinated voters.

                    2 votes
              4. [3]
                NaraVara
                Link Parent
                That was more than a hundred years ago. Television hadn’t been invented yet. Radio wasn’t even universal and most of the rural parts of the country didn’t have electricity. Party organizing is...

                If the Bull Party could #YOLO itself to almost 30% of vote in 1912 just because Teddy’s feelings were hurt, why couldn’t a decent candidate on a decent platform do better in 2024 given those 3 choices?

                That was more than a hundred years ago. Television hadn’t been invented yet. Radio wasn’t even universal and most of the rural parts of the country didn’t have electricity. Party organizing is different now and there are a lot more barriers to entry.

                There is no “longer view” that is reasonable to take. What happens next election is premised on the outcome of this one. And if this one is full of unprecedented stuff then there’s no actual data to be forecasting with. People talking about “long views” tend to be operating on really simple models that don’t actually take a historical view so much as cherry pick historical anecdotes they think confirm where they’d like things to go.

                3 votes
                1. [2]
                  kovboydan
                  Link Parent
                  Right. Which is why in the hypothetical that we’re discussing, reasonable people don’t vote for the authoritarian.

                  What happens next election is premised on the outcome of this one.

                  Right. Which is why in the hypothetical that we’re discussing, reasonable people don’t vote for the authoritarian.

                  3 votes
                  1. NaraVara
                    Link Parent
                    You’re assuming they care about democracy for its own sake. But if you feel like the democratic system is going to steamroll you and your culture you’d prefer a friendly authoritarian.

                    You’re assuming they care about democracy for its own sake. But if you feel like the democratic system is going to steamroll you and your culture you’d prefer a friendly authoritarian.

                    2 votes
            2. papasquat
              Link Parent
              I want to clarify that it's not so much hiring a person to do a job as it is hiring a team. With a new administration comes a virtually entirely new senior leadership team in the executive branch,...

              I want to clarify that it's not so much hiring a person to do a job as it is hiring a team.

              With a new administration comes a virtually entirely new senior leadership team in the executive branch, and that's who actually does the work of government. The president is the ultimate decisionmaker, but in practice, he's more of a figurehead and a set of guiding principles than anything else. The presidents chief of staff is who is really doing the day to day business and decision making for the executive, and a large team of advisors that actually know the ins and outs of government are the ones that are gathering all of the info by which the staff is making decisions.

              A presidents personality matters because it sets the tone for all those people, but it's because of this that I'm not too concerned about the fact (and I think it can be viewed as a fact at this point) that both Biden and Trump's mental faculties are failing, but they're not really the ones running the government, and Biden has had some extremely effective and successful policy wins due to how good his team is.

              8 votes
          2. GenuinelyCrooked
            Link Parent
            The problem with the American system is that if you do that, the third party just ends up functioning as a spoiler. The left leaning votes get split between the Democratic candidate and the third...

            The problem with the American system is that if you do that, the third party just ends up functioning as a spoiler. The left leaning votes get split between the Democratic candidate and the third party candidate, while the right leaning votes don't get split and all go to the Republican candidate, so the Republican candidate wins. It means instead of choosing either left leaning candidate, you're actually "choosing" the Republican candidate, just with extra steps.

            9 votes
          3. DavesWorld
            Link Parent
            That's the big problem with First Past The Post electoral systems. It's very tough to have any kind of incremental change under FPTP. Especially if it doesn't come from the party hierarchy....

            That's the big problem with First Past The Post electoral systems.

            It's very tough to have any kind of incremental change under FPTP. Especially if it doesn't come from the party hierarchy. Meaning, if the party Big Wigs don't orchestrate "We are now Z instead of Y", the change is much, much, much more unlikely to occur.

            There are two "realistic" choices in America. Democrat, Republican. That's it. Maybe, maybe occasional local districts, when considering local candidates, might go for Green or Democratic Socialistic or Libertarian or Mars First or whatever the fuck; but state wide, and especially federal, no. Democrat, Republican. There is no other. You can vote Center, or you can vote Right.

            Incremental societal change in the flavor of political candidates, in the theoretical ebb and flow of the two parties, in the expressed political desires of the citizens, would take generations. You'd have to see first some, then more, then many more, then lots, then most, of the local districts, followed by those districts starting to turn their whole states, away from one of those two parties.

            And that would have to happen across most of the states all at the same time or it would just leave those changing states left out. Would weaken them on the national level where one of the two parties was being replaced.

            You have a new political movement that starts to form in this FPTP system. Lines say. The existing big parties are Stripes and Squares. But some citizens start to reject both Stripes and Squares, and vote for candidates that stand up and proclaim themselves Line.

            First of all, most candidates won't do that. They want to win. And bowing to either Stripes or Squares means they might get some kind of help, support in the form of money and so forth, from the Stripes Party or the Square Party. It means they don't get attacked and sabotaged by whichever of Stripes or Square is "closer" to them ideologically (which is something the opposite would be cheering and looking to support since it weakens their opposition).

            So by needing to "work with" the established party, those incumbents get to corrupt and control and contain the Line candidates. Talk them out of acting so Line, being so Line, trying to push for Line initiatives and Line plans. Knock that Line shit off, don't you know you're a member of Stripes?

            But let's say Line keeps gathering grass roots support. Despite the best effort of Stripes, those Line usurpers keep taking districts. City council and mayor seats, county board seats, eventually they're sitting in State Senate and State House seats.

            Generations. Decades. The whole while, the established parties are fighting the rise. They like things as they are now; where they're in charge. Why would Stripes want to yield power to Line? Don't the asshat citizens who vote Line know how important Stripes is, how long Stripes has been around? Stripes won't go quietly, and one of their big attack angles will be "you're making it easier for Square to win." FPTP.

            But let's say it keeps happening. After you have lots of states where Line has shunted Stripes into the background, eventually you might get to a point where the National Line Party is considered more relevant than the National Stripes Party.

            However, that's where the real hell starts. Because the US has an Electoral College, not popular vote. It's one thing for a State that's turned Line to elect Line candidates to Federal seats in the US Congress. That's still a state-wide district the other states don't impact in any really significant way. Even Senator is still just half of their state for all intents and purposes.

            For President though, you'd still have Stripes and Squares. And as Line rises, Stripes will pitch a huge fit about diluting their base so it strengthens Square. And, again, Square would love it. "Sure, vote Line, go right ahead." You have 100% of the country, and (right now as an example) the country's Electoral Votes are about 50%-50% between the two national parties. Let's say that's what's happening with Stripes and Squares.

            10% for Line means you have 40% for Stripes, but still 50% for Squares. Presto, Squares start winning the Presidency.

            The only way that part changes is all across the nation Line has to basically supplant Stripes. Not just some states, not just some districts. Between the time Lines becomes a serious national player, and the time Line becomes "the other party" out of the two that are allowed to be serious contenders for the Presidency under FPTP, Line's rise will basically make it all but certain Square holds the Presidency.

            And all while Line is struggling to coalesce into that National Party that takes its seat across the table from Square as the other choice offered to the entire nation, Square will be laughing in glee at Stripes, while Stripes frantically tries to dismantle Line to keep Stripes alive.

            Yes, it sucks. Yes, it's chaos. Yes, it locks the nation into this bullshit.

            What happens in a parliamentary system? Not that. Even with First-Past-The-Vote, when certain districts in a state or in a nation go Line, that doesn't mean Line is fucking things up for Stripes. Or giving Square some kind of advantage. It just means both Stripes and Square, along with Triangle and Circle and Trapezoid and Parallelogram and any other parties in the national parliament have a new faction to negotiate with and possibly form a government with.

            And after forming a government they pick one of that coalition as the leader, the PM or President or whatever you call them. It's not a separate election of the nation; the citizens already voted knowing that if their party was able to slide into the majority and be part of the "ruling coalition", their party would have some level (hopefully) of say over who got be Big Wigs in the subsequent government. Possibly, if their party is valuable enough, their party might even supply The Leader and have Leader-sized say.

            Maybe, in the early days of Line, the group of big established parties ignore Line. If there's a hundred seats in the national parliament and Line only has two, then unless the math works out that there's a deadlock and one or two votes could be the swing, no one in those big established parties really gives a fuck what Line thinks. But Line would still have a seat, and still have a platform. Line would still be able to try to broaden their support amongst the citizens.

            You know, the people politicians are supposed to be working for.

            As the elections roll past, and the citizens respond by falling into Line (sorry, couldn't resist), Line would grow and become more relevant. In a way that doesn't toss a nuclear warhead into the political process. Line could organically rise. As Line grows from isolated oddity to something with relevance, their influence would begin to be felt.

            Eventually you'd see Line become one of "the" major players on their side of the ideological aisle. Where before maybe it was Stripes, Circle, and Triangle who basically "ran the country" at the national level, maybe mostly Stripes and some of Triangle fade off as their voters fall into Line, and if that trend continues Line becomes "the" major party on their side of the aisle.

            While, of course, continuing to have to interact with all the other parties to find consensus in government. Whether those other parties (ideologically similar or not) are waxing or waning wouldn't matter, votes are votes. Whether it's a citizen's vote or the seat's vote, they'd all add up to a government that has to find consensus to function.

            And consensus is a moderating factor. Consensus leavens extremism. FPTP doesn't. All or nothing doesn't. Filibuster doesn't. Those things encourage extremism, encourage harsh divisions.

            Ranked Choice Voting or some variation of that, some form of voting that eliminates First Past The Post, would be the best change for America to pull us out of this chaotic bullshit that's leading us teetering on the brink of civil war as as Center and Right feud. Failing that, a parliamentary system that at least reduces the impact of FPTP down to the district level (if you have districts all voting FPTP, but lots of districts, resulting in lots of potential candidates who could sit those seats, that could very likely lessen the stark ideological divides).

            But any kind of change to the American political system requires Constitutional change. Which means a Constitutional Convention. In this political climate, we might as well just start shooting at each other. It'd be less violent than the hell that would erupt as States and their Federal Congressional Officials began wading into one another over "how dare you" and "over my cold dead body" and "filibuster" and seventeen hundred other kinds of obstruction and delay.

            Texas and California, for example, are considered to be ideologically different states. Those two states are unlikely to agree on how to change the Constitution. If one looks to be "winning", the other is going to pull out every possible stop to prevent losing. It could be anything, any kind of change.

            And both states have pockets of "Red" and "Blue." Rural California is considered to be red, but they're outmatched by the number of urban city dwellers so the state tends to lean Blue. Meanwhile, Texas has mostly Blue cities, but the Red officials constantly tweak and fiddle with the intra-state levers of power to keep Blue and Blue Cities from having any real power, keep those cities needing to buckle and break under the whims of the rural Red politicians who rule with iron fists.

            So not only would you have chaos on the Congressional level, or on the State level, but within many of the states all hell would be breaking lose on the local level as well. Texas alone would probably be its own whole chapter of ultra-bloody history after the dust settled, as citizens within it tried to swing "their state" one way or another regarding whatever Constitutional Convention changes they wanted Texas to either support or oppose.

            And remember, throughout this whole hypothetical Constitutional Convention, you still have the Democratic and Republican National Parties. Who, if we were considering removing FPTP or switching to a Parliament system, would also be fighting tooth and nail to prevent it. They benefit from FPTP and Congress. They benefit from deadlock and harsh ideological divides. That's where their power comes from.

            People with power almost never agree to give it up. They almost always have to be forced to give it up. After all, power is power. It gives you power. The ability to Do Things. Especially to be able to Do Them Your Way. That's why we call it power. The DNC and RNC have absolutely no interest in eliminating FPTP, or in switching America away from the Electoral College, or away from Congress.

            So no, there is no "next closest thing" in American politics. Sometimes, occasionally, at the local level, maybe. But moving that change, that "next closest thing" from the local level up to the national level so it replaces either the DNC or RNC will take a lifetime. Literally. Some college student who started right now moving and shaking and dealmaking to replace Democrats or Republicans might live to see the end of that journey.

            And every step of it, they and whoever joined to help them would be spit on, shunned, ridiculed, assaulted, obstructed, and manipulated to keep them from taking any more steps.

            All of this is one reason, just one, I don't see how America doesn't have some sort of wholesale political upheaval period somewhere in the not-distant future. One way or another, we're headed for Major Political Change, and it doesn't look like we're talking centuries before it happens. I wouldn't be at all shocked if it happened within twenty years.

            It might be a breakup. It might be a reformation of government into a new form. And it might happen with only political violence, or might happen after physical violence forces political change. It could be a civil war, it could be a national strike, it could be certain states withdrawing from the country (which would just be a different form of civil war).

            Something like that is going to happen unless everyone involved agrees to change their minds and back off to a more genteel and good faith form of politics. Of governing.

            We had that once in America. Sure people disagreed, but they usually did so civilly. Without plotting every possible trick they could conceive (dirty or otherwise) to ruin their opposition so they don't have to suffer another defeat. If they didn't get what they wanted, they just tried again next time. The need to come together moderated things and people knew how to accept less than total victory.

            People didn't see their only option as "Just Win Baby". Total Victory no matter the cost. No matter how much blood you have to spill, how many people you have to spit on, how many groups or whoever you have to marginalize or crush or destroy or ignore, how many lives you have to use as levers to smash others, none of that matters a bit to today's major players in America. People, both politicians and citizens, agreed to agree on some sort of consensus, whereas the climate of the past few decades is "fuck you, the war continues until you capitulate and accept our Total Victory."

            Just Win Baby. We're headed for the kind of chaos that makes the chaos of now look quaint. That's where Just Win takes us. There can't be any other path when everyone is so focused on Win rather than Compromise and Consensus.

            5 votes
      2. [9]
        the-boy-sebastian
        Link Parent
        shockingly being in jail doesn't exclude you from becoming president. only exclusions are impeachment, serving two terms or swearing an oath to the Constitution and then leading a rebellion...

        shockingly being in jail doesn't exclude you from becoming president. only exclusions are impeachment, serving two terms or swearing an oath to the Constitution and then leading a rebellion against the United States

        14 votes
        1. [2]
          boxer_dogs_dance
          Link Parent
          If you blocked prisoners from running, political opponents would be charged and convicted for bullshit a lot more often

          If you blocked prisoners from running, political opponents would be charged and convicted for bullshit a lot more often

          34 votes
          1. Eji1700
            Link Parent
            It's always worrying to me how quickly people rush to solutions that solve their short term and open up major issues for the long term. It's especially bad in politics because i feel like people...

            It's always worrying to me how quickly people rush to solutions that solve their short term and open up major issues for the long term. It's especially bad in politics because i feel like people don't even understand why some of the rules are the way they are, and what it can be like in nations where they aren't in place.

            I get that "Well they won't follow the rules anyways!" is a thing, but the whole point is that it absolutely slows down the spread of corruption because you NEED enough people to agree with you to just ignore it.

            6 votes
        2. [4]
          BlindCarpenter
          Link Parent
          Impeachment? So doesn't that make him ineligible?

          Impeachment? So doesn't that make him ineligible?

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            Promonk
            Link Parent
            I'm not sure why, but the term "impeachment" has been misinterpreted for a long time. An impeachment of the US president is essentially an indictment that can only be brought by a vote of the...

            I'm not sure why, but the term "impeachment" has been misinterpreted for a long time. An impeachment of the US president is essentially an indictment that can only be brought by a vote of the House of Representatives. The accusation of "high crimes and misdemeanors" is then tried by the Senate. It requires a 2/3s majority of senators to vote to convict to remove a sitting president from office..

            In both of Trump's impeachments, the Democrats controlled the House and the Republicans controlled the Senate. Under the circumstances, there was probably nothing the man could have done that would have gotten the GOP on board with conviction. He could probably have shot and killed a man in Times Square and it wouldn't have meant a conviction. He once bragged about that very scenario, in fact.

            16 votes
            1. psi
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              The Democrats were in the majority (50+VP) when the second impeachment was tried, despite the House voted for the articles of impeachment a few weeks earlier while the Republicans were still in...
              • Exemplary

              The Democrats were in the majority (50+VP) when the second impeachment was tried, despite the House voted for the articles of impeachment a few weeks earlier while the Republicans were still in the majority and Trump was still President. McConnell then refused to bring the Senate back into session, forcing the House impeachment managers to deliver the charges to the newly-elected Senate.

              I'm only clarifying this point to highlight the ridiculousness of the Republican counterargument to impeachment. After refusing to try Trump while Trump was President, the Republicans then argued that they lacked the authority to convict a non-sitting President. (This assertion was then abbreviate into something like "you can't impeach an ex-President", which as you point out would be an irrelevant rebuttal: Trump already had been impeached.)

              And just to emphasize the unprincipled mendacity of it all: despite Trump insisting during the impeachment trial that a President couldn't be impeached and convicted by Congress unless they were first convicted by the criminal justice system, Trump now asserts that a President can't be tried by the criminal justice system unless they were first impeached and convicted by Congress.

              29 votes
        3. [2]
          agentsquirrel
          Link Parent
          Which Trump did.

          swearing an oath to the Constitution and then leading a rebellion against the United States

          Which Trump did.

          8 votes
          1. the-boy-sebastian
            Link Parent
            well yeah but he's not been convicted of sedition and we won't see that trial before the election. should've been more specific

            well yeah but he's not been convicted of sedition and we won't see that trial before the election. should've been more specific

            5 votes
      3. [11]
        smoontjes
        Link Parent
        And the Democrats are putting all their eggs in the Biden basket, right? Hillary Clinton was not exactly liked by a whole lot of people, and I feel the same could be said about Biden right now. I...

        And the Democrats are putting all their eggs in the Biden basket, right?

        Hillary Clinton was not exactly liked by a whole lot of people, and I feel the same could be said about Biden right now. I am really fearing a repeat of 2016 where we saw that polling is not trustworthy and where sycophants manage to push Trump into office through an even worse smear campaign than what we saw against Clinton back then. This despite everything rational going against ever putting that demented orange psycho in office again.

        8 votes
        1. [5]
          boxer_dogs_dance
          Link Parent
          Biden has been pushing policies that concretely benefit people. Abortion is a wildcard. Gaza is also a wild card. Biden is old and people aren't enthusiastic. We don't have any idea

          Biden has been pushing policies that concretely benefit people.

          Abortion is a wildcard.

          Gaza is also a wild card.

          Biden is old and people aren't enthusiastic.

          We don't have any idea

          22 votes
          1. [4]
            smoontjes
            Link Parent
            I am not defending Trump. I am 100% in favour of electing Biden. I am only pointing out that it is laughable that Biden is the best candidate that the democrats could come up with.

            I am not defending Trump. I am 100% in favour of electing Biden. I am only pointing out that it is laughable that Biden is the best candidate that the democrats could come up with.

            17 votes
            1. [2]
              Nichaes
              Link Parent
              I don't know if that many people ever really wanted Biden specifically. His politics are fine for a democrat, and overall his presidency has been very 'normal' (obviously he's had divisive...

              I don't know if that many people ever really wanted Biden specifically. His politics are fine for a democrat, and overall his presidency has been very 'normal' (obviously he's had divisive issues/actions, but so has every other president in history). He's just a safe bet politically, but with how old he is now it's unclear how safe that bet actually is when it really wouldn't be surprising if he randomly croaked through his next term if elected.

              12 votes
              1. MimicSquid
                Link Parent
                If Biden dies in office and we suddenly have President Kamala Harris, things would definitely change. But for all I'm not a fan of how "law and order" she was earlier in her career, I daresay a...

                If Biden dies in office and we suddenly have President Kamala Harris, things would definitely change. But for all I'm not a fan of how "law and order" she was earlier in her career, I daresay a couple of years of her as president would be far preferable to Trump in office in terms of the outcomes I want to see.

                15 votes
            2. vektor
              Link Parent
              I think part of that is down to that the candidate has to mobilize/convince centrists. Sanders e.g. would've failed at that spectacularly. There's (presumably) a good amount of voters who value...

              I think part of that is down to that the candidate has to mobilize/convince centrists. Sanders e.g. would've failed at that spectacularly. There's (presumably) a good amount of voters who value stability and continuity over radical, even if positive, change. Those aren't going to show up for a progressive candidate, because to them it's the choice of blue-flavor radicalism vs red-flavor radicalism. Trump changes that calculus up a bit, because he should be unelectable to those stability centrists. That doesn't mean they would necessarily show up for progressive candidate, because that's exactly the "shit or worse shit" election that motivates no one to get out there and vote. But they will show up for Biden, who is delivering a healthy dose of stability while delivering at least some decent policy results.

              Me stating this doesn't mean I like this status quo, but it's my best guess for why things are the way they are in the US.

              This calculus could change with more young progressive voters showing up. Of course the elections themselves aren't the place to push for progressive concessions; I'd hazard the guess that has to happen before: In party bodies and/or in primary elections. The more progressives show up there or get votes into those bodies, the more the party sees that they are a part of their potential base. But don't think for a second that comes without compromises. You can't have 10% dictate the platform of a 50% party, but compromises are an essential component of any democracy.

              6 votes
        2. [5]
          patience_limited
          Link Parent
          I really wish that we had something like parliamentary politics, where you don't vote for a single leader figure so much as a party and its platform. The Democratic Party platform, set against the...

          I really wish that we had something like parliamentary politics, where you don't vote for a single leader figure so much as a party and its platform. The Democratic Party platform, set against the Republican Party platform, is so much better for everyone that I don't give a flying f*ck about who the figurehead is.

          Personifying all hopes and aspirations in a single leader is how you get authoritarianism.

          16 votes
          1. [4]
            smoontjes
            Link Parent
            We have that in Denmark and it's not much better. We have 11 parties in parliament (15 if you count the whole realm), sure. But it's almost always down to 2 people anyways: left-wing coalition's...

            We have that in Denmark and it's not much better. We have 11 parties in parliament (15 if you count the whole realm), sure. But it's almost always down to 2 people anyways: left-wing coalition's candidate vs. right-wing coalition's candidate.

            4 votes
            1. [3]
              MimicSquid
              Link Parent
              Please correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm an American and not perfectly familiar with parliamentary systems,) but the benefit for the voter is that they can vote for more granular preferences, right?...

              Please correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm an American and not perfectly familiar with parliamentary systems,) but the benefit for the voter is that they can vote for more granular preferences, right? Like, in the US if I want to vote for someone who's strong on business regulation but also anti-immigration (not my personal preferences, to be clear, but trying to pick cross-party issues) there's not really anyone I could vote for at all that would fill both preferences. In a parliamentary system, even if my hyper-specific party ends up negotiating to be part of one of the coalitions, they know they were elected on the specific support of me and people like me.

              In the US, the party primaries sort of allow for shaping of the candidate that will eventually be the party nominee, but it's much harder for a vote to express opinions on more nuanced platforms than "Republican = yes" or "Democrat = yes."

              5 votes
              1. [2]
                smoontjes
                Link Parent
                Ideally that is how it should work, yes. Practically, this is not really the way that it is. Because you still need half+1 votes in parliament to create a government, so the parties simply split...

                Ideally that is how it should work, yes. Practically, this is not really the way that it is. Because you still need half+1 votes in parliament to create a government, so the parties simply split in two and try to get a majority. This can take a while (Belgium being a hilarious example) on account of negotiations, but the block of parties with the majority usually reach compromises at some point, and either a majority government that includes several parties is formed, or a minority government is formed in which 1 or 2 parties is part of it and they then have to make individual deals with parties to find a majority to pass bills.

                Also, for my country, I don’t think there are any pro-regulation and anti-immigration parties. There are the social democrats but they are at best a center party now, and many even call them center-right, despite historically being the main left-wing party. This is because we currently have a rare centrist government with them plus the Moderates, a centre-right party, and Venstre who are the historically main right-wing party (Venstre actually translates to Left but they have never been leftist but that’s a whole other story lol).

                "Republican = yes" or "Democrat = yes."

                And here it simply ends up being "left = yes" or "right = yes." — except for the centrist government right now but that really is an exception and almost nobody asked for it and these 2 of these parties’ voters all hate them for doing it and it 100% won’t continue after the next election.

                1 vote
                1. MimicSquid
                  Link Parent
                  Ah, well. Thanks for providing examples of how the lovely theory breaks down in practice.

                  Ah, well. Thanks for providing examples of how the lovely theory breaks down in practice.

                  1 vote
      4. nothis
        Link Parent
        I saw some polls in which Trump leads among young voters. This deeply disturbed me.

        younger (and presumably more left leaning) voters

        I saw some polls in which Trump leads among young voters. This deeply disturbed me.

        4 votes
    2. [3]
      Melvincible
      Link Parent
      I think a huge number of us are not even really paying attention to this. It doesn't matter. It will not affect anything. Our election system is completely broken. He could be convicted of murder...

      I think a huge number of us are not even really paying attention to this. It doesn't matter. It will not affect anything. Our election system is completely broken. He could be convicted of murder at this point and the Republicans would still have put him on the ballot and he would face no consequence. Why would i waste my limited time on this earth thinking about these people? I can get caught up when it's over. The American people did not want either candidate to be on the ballot and we were (and are) disregarded. I am exhausted. We are the world's weapon supplier, and enemy of practically everyone now. It won't matter who the captain is when the iceberg punches our hull, it just feels like our fates are sealed.

      17 votes
      1. [2]
        oracle
        Link Parent
        This sort of reckless doomerism encourages people to let us sleepwalk into a dictatorship.

        This sort of reckless doomerism encourages people to let us sleepwalk into a dictatorship.

        29 votes
        1. Melvincible
          Link Parent
          This is some seriously misplaced blame lol.

          This is some seriously misplaced blame lol.

          8 votes
    3. [16]
      stu2b50
      Link Parent
      Probably not. I think people have made up their minds. The main thing is if the sentence distracts his campaign, that would be detrimental to his chances. It's more of a turnover game than a...

      Probably not. I think people have made up their minds. The main thing is if the sentence distracts his campaign, that would be detrimental to his chances. It's more of a turnover game than a change-people's-mind game. People think what they will now about Trump and Biden; it's about which side has more people come to the polls.

      16 votes
      1. [15]
        cloud_loud
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Am I wrong in remembering that part of the reason Biden won in 2020, and why Democrats did well in 2022, was because they were able to convert moderate Republicans?

        It's more of a turnover game than a change-people's-mind game

        Am I wrong in remembering that part of the reason Biden won in 2020, and why Democrats did well in 2022, was because they were able to convert moderate Republicans?

        8 votes
        1. [14]
          Wolf_359
          Link Parent
          I think Trump converted them himself. His mishandling of COVID was enough to convince a lot of people. But four years is a long time to forget. Someone once wrote that Trump's whole personality...

          I think Trump converted them himself. His mishandling of COVID was enough to convince a lot of people.

          But four years is a long time to forget. Someone once wrote that Trump's whole personality works better when he's an insurgent rather than an incumbent and that seemed logical to me, unfortunately.

          What scares me most is the current economy. I'll take a bunch of heat for saying this - happens every time I say it on Tildes - but our economy is not doing as well as they say, certainly not for the average person. I think people will blame Biden. Doesn't help that naive college kids seem willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to the Palestine situation.

          24 votes
          1. [12]
            updawg
            Link Parent
            But statistic after statistic shows that the average person is doing better now! Sure, tons of people aren't doing well, but that is always true. The claim that the average person isn't doing well...

            our economy is not doing as well as they say, certainly not for the average person.

            But statistic after statistic shows that the average person is doing better now! Sure, tons of people aren't doing well, but that is always true. The claim that the average person isn't doing well is just disinformation with a lot of anecdata backing it up and scaring all the people who are doing well into not speaking up because they don't want to get criticized for being "the enemy" and all that.

            And even if people aren't doing as well now as they were before COVID, then which party is more likely to help improve that?

            Since World War II, the United States economy has performed significantly better on average under the administration of Democratic presidents than Republican presidents. The reasons for this are debated, and the observation applies to economic variables including job creation, GDP growth, stock market returns, personal income growth and corporate profits. The unemployment rate has risen on average under Republican presidents, while it has fallen on average under Democratic presidents. Budget deficits relative to the size of the economy were lower on average for Democratic presidents.[1][2] Ten of the eleven U.S. recessions between 1953 and 2020 began under Republican presidents.[3]

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._economic_performance_by_presidential_party

            Yet somehow fucking everyone always says that the economy does better under Republicans.

            26 votes
            1. [2]
              blindmikey
              Link Parent
              I doubt op was taking the position that Trump was better for the economy, just that it's not doing as well as the statistics seem to suggest. Which might not be wrong. The economy doing well might...

              I doubt op was taking the position that Trump was better for the economy, just that it's not doing as well as the statistics seem to suggest. Which might not be wrong. The economy doing well might be at the hidden expense of other factors. Such as the buying class forgoing buying critical items, such as housing, and the corporate class keeping their stock value high by gouging the internals of their companies, either with layoffs or producing far worse product - which the buying class feels so much that they coin the term "enshittification". And if this is systemic enough, it could suggest that our success is a bubble that might eventually pop.

              Regardless - to anyone reading - go vote. Please go vote. History has shown us what someone like Trump does when they get back into positions of power.

              16 votes
              1. 0x29A
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                Yeah, and extremely high grocery prices (honestly, prices in general- my auto insurance went up a TON), enshittifying services and whatnot- regardless if in many other facets, people on average...

                Yeah, and extremely high grocery prices (honestly, prices in general- my auto insurance went up a TON), enshittifying services and whatnot- regardless if in many other facets, people on average are somehow doing better statistically- can make it feel like they're simply just not. The fact is much of the economy doing well is simply mostly just benefiting those at the top, while the rest of us are told to be thankful for slightly better scraps.

                Sure, it doesn't mean in any way that I am recommending voting anything but as left as possible. Pragmatically I personally see prevention of all right-wing power in any form as preferable to not preventing it.

                However, I can definitely see in family, friends, and others the pressures they feel from higher prices, worse services, and so forth (as I do myself) and someone looking them, or myself, in the eye and saying we're doing better on average or that the economy is doing well- means nothing if I don't feel like I'm experiencing that.

                And I won't go into detail about it- but while I do find it concerning (due to this potentially leading to a right-wing victory which will be the worst overall outcome) that some leftist voters are having qualms about voting for either candidate because of the very real issues many of us have with Biden (and on extremely upsetting issues - aka "how could I ever feel like voting for a president that does X")- I can completely understand their hesitation even if I think it's a danger come election time - I completely agree with their hesitation and have felt it myself, but I see no other option than to vote left to prevent right, as awful and unenthusiastic as the vote feels.

                9 votes
            2. [8]
              Wolf_359
              Link Parent
              Statistics don't paint the whole picture. I posted on here recently about my home buying experience. Wife is a nurse, I'm a teacher, and we are about to yeet roughly half of our take home pay to...

              Statistics don't paint the whole picture. I posted on here recently about my home buying experience.

              Wife is a nurse, I'm a teacher, and we are about to yeet roughly half of our take home pay to buy a very small home in a low cost of living area. And the only thing enabling us to do this is the insane (and frankly disgusting, morally wrong) amount of equity we gained from buying a beater condo right before COVID. I honestly don't know what my little brother is going to do since he's renting. He's never getting a home without family help - which my family can't offer him.

              Groceries are through the roof, subscription prices went up for everything, cars are still insanely expensive, etc. I know the economy isn't doing well because my friends and I have reigned in our "fun" spending. That's not a good sign for a bunch of middle and lower-middle class 30 year olds.

              Don't even get me started on daycare. For two kids you can expect to pay about $20k in daycare costs per year.

              Inflation was what? 8%? My raise was still 3%.

              I genuinely do not believe the numbers and I've always been a guy who trusts the data and the experts. Hopefully things will stagnate a bit and wages can catch back up? That would be great.

              10 votes
              1. [5]
                scroll_lock
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                Comment box Scope: comment response, information/data, some conclusions Tone: neutral Opinion: only in conclusions Sarcasm/humor: none Recent inflation rates: Across those four years that’s an...
                • Exemplary
                Comment box
                • Scope: comment response, information/data, some conclusions
                • Tone: neutral
                • Opinion: only in conclusions
                • Sarcasm/humor: none

                Recent inflation rates:

                • In 2023, the average rate of inflation was 4.1%.
                • In 2022, the average rate of inflation was 8.0%.
                • In 2021, the average rate of inflation was 4.7%.
                • In 2020, the average rate of inflation was 1.2%.

                Across those four years that’s an average of 4.5%.

                I genuinely do not believe the numbers and I've always been a guy who trusts the data and the experts. Hopefully things will stagnate a bit and wages can catch back up?

                You should believe the numbers. You should also consider that you are an anecdote and “the numbers” are statistical. Your experience is not universal. See SSA median wage growth data:

                • 2020: 2.826%
                • 2021: 8.892%
                • 2022: 5.316%

                This dataset doesn’t have wage growth data for 2023, but the EPI puts year-over-year growth for 2023 at an average of about 4.542% based on those monthly figures.

                In sum, that is 21.576% nominal wage growth compared to 18.0% inflation, which means about 3.6% real wage growth in the years studied. Not to mention 2024, in which inflation has been relatively low and nominal wage growth has statistically outpaced it.

                It is possible that your wage has not risen at the rate of inflation. That’s not the same as the median wage stagnating. While it is possible that different federal policy could have caused your personal wage to rise, there are other factors that contribute to an individual’s wage, such as: state policy, local policy, the competitiveness of their business, and the population density of their local area.

                As an educated voter, it’s more important for you to advocate for the election of people who improve society, even if your personal situation is not necessarily thrilling. There’s a distinction between unremarkable personal finances and dire ones; this seems closer to the former and therefore it still makes sense to prioritize significant benefits to society.

                It’s also worth noting that many of Biden’s policies indirectly reduce your cost of living. I am not going to collect a list, but various executive orders requiring efficiency improvements in energy generation, reductions in the emissions of toxic pollutants (therefore decreasing medical costs), investments in public transportation, transit-oriented housing development, and so on contribute to lower costs for constituents, even if they do not realize it.

                In general, it is also worthwhile to consider what future costs are being minimized now. For example, the 2021 Bipartisan Infrastructure Law invests about $1 trillion into public infrastructure. Had this not been signed by Biden, more infrastructure would fall into disrepair and require more expensive maintenance and replacements in the future, not to mention the cost-damage of catastrophic engineering failures and resulting fatalities. These costs are borne by the public, including you, even if you don’t realize it. As another example, the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act invests heavily into, among other things, climate resiliency projects such as renewable energy generation. This also offsets future costs of climate disaster that society, including you, would bear.

                I have had to reign in my spending slightly because I wasn’t doing anything in the pandemic; immediately afterward I had more savings and therefore more ability to spend. Now I don’t have those one-time cash reserves. This was probably the same for you. Psychologically, that may inform some of your impressions of the wider economy.

                15 votes
                1. [4]
                  Wolf_359
                  (edited )
                  Link Parent
                  Excellent comment and I'm tagging it exemplary because you came with receipts. To clarify, I was already voting Biden and would never in a million years advocate for Trump. Biden is clearly more...

                  Excellent comment and I'm tagging it exemplary because you came with receipts. To clarify, I was already voting Biden and would never in a million years advocate for Trump. Biden is clearly more fiscally and socially responsible, but more than that I think Trump is a Nazi surrounded by Nazis with no exaggeration.

                  All of that aside, I still don't think those numbers paint a full picture of this economy. Young families are getting bent over right now. I know because I and all of my friends are young families. Daycare and a mortgage will easily eat up 50-75% of your takehome pay for one or two children. That leaves you with 25% of your take home to handle literally everything else and that's simply not realistic or healthy. Without Biden's SAVE plan for college loans, my wife and I would both be totally screwed.

                  I think the huge number of Americans who already own homes at ~3% interest and those who own without a mortgage are in great shape. The rest of us are fucked.

                  Those numbers are going to look much worse when a huge number of young people have thrown away money renting instead of owning. Wrong or right, home ownership has always been the main way that the middle class builds wealth in this country.

                  I'm sorry, but it's just too easy to simplify or manipulate those kinds of numbers. They don't paint the true picture. I'm living it. I'm looking at people who are living it. My elder millennial coworkers are doing great. Us younger millennials are not. It's a really shitty time to raise a family.

                  My wife and I spent all morning agonizing over our budget today because we are trying to get a house. We aren't looking at giant or beautiful homes either. The house we are currently looking at is modest, one story, two bedrooms in a low cost of living area. We are getting a small bit of help from her parents and we still can't make the numbers work without her picking up extra shifts for at least three years. That's not great. Getting any help from parents is a massive privilege that the kids I grew up with in my very poor hometown would never have. Hell, I wouldn't have it if I didn't marry this woman. My family has shit for money. I honestly don't know what they'll do if they don't already own. Wait for wages to catch up and hope the market stagnates I guess.

                  10 votes
                  1. [3]
                    scroll_lock
                    Link Parent
                    Comment box Scope: comment response Tone: neutral, understanding Opinion: embedded in my perspective Sarcasm/humor: none I find your experience to be true and valid. The statistical data isn’t...
                    Comment box
                    • Scope: comment response
                    • Tone: neutral, understanding
                    • Opinion: embedded in my perspective
                    • Sarcasm/humor: none

                    I find your experience to be true and valid. The statistical data isn’t manipulated or wrong in any way. Your wage growth is just below the median. I don’t know what the standard deviations are, but my subjective and arbitrary sense is that your situation would fall within about one deviation of the median, given what I understand about the general economic condition.

                    I have thought about buying a very small apartment in my city. I have only a single income. With interest rates as they are, that is impossible for me. But that is a product of the Federal Reserve, an independent agency which the president has no control over, so it isn’t a factor I consider in this context. I have considered that there could be more federal pressure to mandate transit-oriented zoning/development, or something similar—for example California recently overrode all local zoning ordinances in order to allow duplexes to be built in areas otherwise zoned for single-family homes—but this sort of thing is also the jurisdiction of the local government, whom I pressure accordingly in my routine as an activist.

                    I am likely to be priced out of my neighborhood within 5 years if I cannot sign a mortgage by then. This is saddening as I like my community a lot. I did not expect to live here permanently, but having now felt that desire, it is hard to look at the budget and decide I probably must relocate to a part of town I dislike or feel no connection to.

                    Renting is not “throwing money away” for young people for whom homeownership would be net negative drain on financial opportunity (it has many costs including forcing you to stay in a particular place), but there is a certain point where it indeed becomes useful. I think this is why it is important to build more transit-oriented housing and more housing in general.

                    I hold the opinion that our cultural preference for nuclear family units to live in separate homes leads us to be poorer than we have to be. There would be better housing supply if we were more accepting of multi-generational households, both personally and societally.


                    If the area you live in is LCOL because it is rural—I’m making an assumption—it is structurally harder to improve conditions of communities in that area because of the relative resource inefficiency of most wealth generators (other than agriculture) in rural areas. The cost of doing business in a rural place, or of building infrastructure, is high relative to its nominal benefits.

                    • Places with smaller populations simply have fewer specialists (in absolute terms) with expertise in a particular field (like childcare, healthcare, finance, etc) which significantly increases the cost of accessing those services. Because most specialist services are used infrequently this may not be very visible in COL estimates, but when they are necessary, those costs are outsized. Of course some specialists are in short supply in all parts of the country (like childcare experts).
                    • Necessary transportation costs in rural places are typically very high relative to more urban places. This mostly comes down to the cost of automobile ownership and the number of miles driven with that vehicle. But the time-value of commuting relatively long distances for every trip in a rural place also has a cost; not so visible, but it exists.
                    • A rural area typically has a small tax base because it has a small population, so local municipalities have little ability to do useful things like grade-separate rail crossings or expand educational services for residents. Funding is almost entirely dependent on the state government (in particular for education) and the federal government for various subsidies. Because state and federal governments also have to support a large number of municipalities, it is often challenging for them to support rural areas whose infrastructure (etc) projects have a numerically/nominally low ratio of benefits compared to their costs.
                    • On the private side, small populations make it unprofitable for many businesses to operate at all, or at least without charging high prices—there just aren’t enough customers. On paper, the COL of some rural areas may be “low” because real estate is not in demand and subsidized goods like dairy may be relatively accessible, but the opportunity cost of living in a place with few businesses in absolute terms is an invisible force which leads to inter-generational poverty relative to areas with denser population distributions.

                    Not making a judgment, just observing that people in your situation (if I assume correctly that by LCOL you mean rural) have it harder for mathematical and spatial reasons and not just political and cultural ones. The reason cities are effective wealth generators is because they are more efficient at distributing resources. Because some people choose or are forced to live in rural places, they (and most people they know) are going to feel like “the whole country” is doing poorly because, as far as they can see, it is.

                    The federal government has some incredibly valuable rural programs, including for things like infrastructure, and most agencies (at least under Biden) attempt to distribute grants equitably according to incomes, but there’s a reason the Northeast Corridor receives billions in rail funding and my small hometown of a few thousand people doesn’t.

                    8 votes
                    1. [2]
                      Wolf_359
                      Link Parent
                      Another awesome comment. Your thoughts on nuclear families in separate units causing us to be poorer is pretty fascinating. I am of the opinion that the economy would adjust to any other standard...

                      Another awesome comment. Your thoughts on nuclear families in separate units causing us to be poorer is pretty fascinating. I am of the opinion that the economy would adjust to any other standard of living though. Having women stay at home was a totally viable economic situation for a long time. When women went to work, the economy got used to that and now you pretty much need two incomes to build wealth.

                      Multi-gen homes would be great for a generation or two and then they'd be a requirement for basic living because the economy would adjust to fit that. Not like everyone is just going to walk around with excess cash forever because we started living that way.

                      Just my two cents.

                      Btw, I'm in Western New York. Suburban, not rural. But definitely one of the last affordable suburban areas in the country. It's a hot market here for exactly that reason.

                      Unfortunately, I'm teacher trapped. I have tenure, a few years of pay raises I wouldn't get elsewhere, and amazing healthcare. I can't leave or move very far easily.

                      3 votes
                      1. scroll_lock
                        Link Parent
                        Comment box Scope: comment response Tone: neutral Opinion: yes Sarcasm/humor: none edit: I wrote this and then realized it was just too long. I'm really rambling. Sorry. Yes unfortunately on an...
                        Comment box
                        • Scope: comment response
                        • Tone: neutral
                        • Opinion: yes
                        • Sarcasm/humor: none

                        edit: I wrote this and then realized it was just too long. I'm really rambling. Sorry.

                        Unfortunately, I'm teacher trapped. I have tenure, a few years of pay raises I wouldn't get elsewhere, and amazing healthcare. I can't leave or move very far easily.

                        Yes unfortunately on an individual level the decision to relocate is usually very hard. So once we build ourselves into resource-inefficient land uses, it's a very slow process to get out. Even harder if you have a spouse and kids. I don't blame you for being frustrated, it sounds like a difficult situation.

                        Interestingly I think I have observed that many/most suburbs and 'urbs' have affordable units in which to live, there's just some reason people don't want to live in said affordable unit, like it not being a detatched single-family home, not having enough parking spaces, not having a yard, not having air conditioning, or being near a fire station, or being on a busy road, or being in an area perceived to be 'high-crime', being in a school district perceived to be 'low-performing', being in a city they perceive negatively because they don't like the sports team, being old construction, being new construction, having a slightly weird smell, etc. Pretty subjective stuff. Not invalid necessarily. In fact many are quite reasonable. But middle class people can get a little fussy.

                        For example someone I work with is trying to move back to her hometown in southern NY. Really expensive houses there, mostly $1 million and more. She kept complaining about the cost, so I glanced at Zillow and pointed out that there were several condos in town, including some under $200k, and even some with 2 bedrooms around $300k (an absolute price which would be considered ridiculously cheap for that area) which is within her budget. But she doesn't want a condo. She wants a house - and has decided that it must be in this particular town. well, ok. I guess that's her prerogative. Nothing wrong with that in itself. But it is her voluntary decision to self-select out of several perfectly reasonable housing options, both in this town and others nearby. I'd call that luxury spending. For the record, wanting nice things isn't bad, and as society progresses I think it's OK to 'raise the bar'... but there's something about the way people insist on very specific lifestyles that doesn't align with material/resource-efficiency, and I think that is a problem in a resource-strapped world.

                        In my case I absolutely refuse to live in an apartment unit that does not have a south or west-facing window. I know it's stupid and unnecessary and that I'm wrong. I just have a plant that needs a lot of light or it will die. (The sunlamps don't work. Inexplicable. It can tell. This thing defies the laws of physics. I promise, I have tried so many solutions.) Unfortunately this literally cuts the units available to me in half. More than half if I want actual sunlight through that window. This is an objectively bad decision. My fussy, persnickety plant is not that important in the grand scheme of things. I ought to toss it and yet I cannot bring myself to. I was complaining that I would be priced out of my neighborhood in a few years, and while that is probably true for a variety of reasons, I am also intentionally ignoring a few places that would probably be just barely affordable, they just face north and I won't do that because my spoiled and pampered plant will wilt. Everyone has these silly requirements. For the most part, they are luxuries at the end of the day. I just think it's important to acknowledge how much privilege most of us have. So even though some of my personal finances don't have a great outlook, I try to acknowledge the fact that it's partially my own doing. For this reason, there may come a day when I regretfully throw out my plant. (I'll probably still have to move away though.)

                        Multi-gen homes would be great for a generation or two and then they'd be a requirement for basic living because the economy would adjust to fit that. Not like everyone is just going to walk around with excess cash forever because we started living that way.

                        Good point about how the market can dynamically react to workforce demographics. You could very well be right. Though I will note that part of this "adjustment" historically is that Americans choose to live in larger homes, acquire complex air conditioning, clothes-washing/drying, refrigerating, etc. appliances in said homes, drive more vehicles (and more expensive ones), live farther away from work, go on more extravagant and distant vacations, purchase more expensive electronic toys, acquire gigantic wardrobes of clothing, acquire any number of books, games, decorations, instruments, etc., and otherwise spend money in a discretionary way. This stuff is not strictly required to live or to be happy -- or at least, it is not all required at once -- but it has nonetheless become common. So the baseline for what we consider "normal" is higher. However, this is different than the baseline for what we consider essential, which hasn't changed as much: a human needs to eat about the same number of calories in 2024 as they did in 1824, etc. This discrepancy can lead us to psychologically overlook that our standard of living has risen.

                        For example, home sizes in 1920 (when fewer women worked) were about 1048sqft. Today they are more like 2700sqft. That is an unnecessary amount of space for many or perhaps most people, including families, especially considering families are smaller today than they were in the past. Thus the decision to live in a larger home is, for most people, closer to a luxury than a necessity. Chances are the homes you and I consider "small" today would, 100 years ago, be considered large.

                        Similarly, the fact that many families own multiple automobiles, some of which go unused for months at a time, is another indication of the normalization of luxury spending. (How is it that family sizes decrease and yet the number of three-car households has increased?!) The ridiculous part is that many people who spend a great deal of money on luxuries such as large homes, cars, electronics, restaurants, etc. feel psychologically that they are "poor." I can't say their feelings are "invalid" -- they are what they are -- but they are certainly uninformed. The association of material accumulation with happiness separates us from reality. We make fun of rich people all the time for being "out of touch" and yet we are rather out of touch ourselves.

                        So even though the market had the ability to raise prices for essentials due to more people having access to capital, it primarily increased prices for luxuries, and encouraged people to buy more luxuries at a given price. This makes intuitive sense because luxuries are a lot more attractive to people with more capital to begin with. I would speculate that we would see similar results were we to encourage more multigenerational families. But I could be wrong. I'm not an economist.

                        This does beg the question of whether people are fiscally responsible enough to make decisions about their basic finances to begin with: do we need a better system to stop people from spending on luxuries when they can't afford necessities? What does that look like? Evidence suggests almost half of Americans are not financially literate. (I hope I'm not in that figure, but T.B.H., given my plant issue, maybe I am.) Given this, we have to find ways to distribute resources that do not require individuals (half of whom empirically have no idea what they're doing) to make financially irresponsible decisions. Something something "nanny state." Blah blah. I would reframe it as "configure society such that 'objectively' irresponsible decisions aren't appealing to begin with" and further that "basic needs are available to everyone at reasonable expense."

                        Government can implement housing regulations/taxes to minimize sharp rent increases for tenants, especially long-standing tenants and low-income tenants; maximize the amount of affordable housing near public transportation; invest heavily into expanding public transportation access; fund research into energy efficiency for the grid and appliances.... and so on, such that it's unrealistic to be unable to afford a basic quality of life. This isn't simple at all, but there are lots of ways to socialize people's fixed expenses while allowing markets to do whatever they want for luxuries. (In Japan there is no housing crisis because government subsidizes housing construction to a high degree.) At the point where people's living expenses are consistently reasonable, I truly do not care in the slightest how much the newest Nintendo video game machine costs or whatever.

                        I believe this is possible. Consider how hard it was in feudal society to acquire a single potato from the ground. Now consider how abundant potatoes are. And exotic fruits from Indonesia. And obscure spices from the mountain passes of the Himalayas. Part of that comes from technological advancement, but quite a lot from very specific agricultural policies and subsidies. Many US farmers are subsidized by the federal government. If the government positions the market in such a way that it cannot make XYZ basic living expense too expensive... then it won't, and we will be the richer for it. The market always operates under fixed conditions imposed by government and therefore doesn't have an infinite capacity to react to workforce demographic changes..

                        1 vote
              2. [2]
                kovboydan
                Link Parent
                Minor edit.

                For two kids you can expect to pay about $20k $40k in daycare costs per year.

                Minor edit.

                3 votes
                1. Wolf_359
                  Link Parent
                  Guess that depends where you live. 20k where I live but it's a LCOL area with lower wages to match.

                  Guess that depends where you live. 20k where I live but it's a LCOL area with lower wages to match.

                  3 votes
            3. smoontjes
              Link Parent
              Not unique to the US, if that somehow helps. It's more or less seen as common sense here in Denmark too that the right wing parties are the ones that are "economically responsible" - it couldn't...

              Yet somehow fucking everyone always says that the economy does better under Republicans.

              Not unique to the US, if that somehow helps. It's more or less seen as common sense here in Denmark too that the right wing parties are the ones that are "economically responsible" - it couldn't be further from the truth of course, but that's what they constantly ride on and for some reason, a lot of people on the centre and even left wing somehow buy into it too.

              7 votes
          2. vord
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Much like Obama got to clean up the mess that Bush's policies enabled, so Biden gets to deal with Trump's.

            Much like Obama got to clean up the mess that Bush's policies enabled, so Biden gets to deal with Trump's.

            9 votes
    4. [11]
      Eji1700
      Link Parent
      I don’t think this case matters enough to the people in the middle who could actually be swayed. The entire case is odd ( I’ve already explained in other topics that I personally think it’s...

      I don’t think this case matters enough to the people in the middle who could actually be swayed.

      The entire case is odd ( I’ve already explained in other topics that I personally think it’s reaching) and it’s very much a “so what” for lot of people.

      Someone famous slept with a porn star and then paid them to be quiet? Not really news, but also not really a crime ( or what he was charged with)

      He lied about how he was paying this porn star hush money on his documents? Also not news, also not actually the crime he’s charged with.

      Doing all this was a campaign finance violation? Honestly I could count on one hand the number of people I’ve met who even know what is and isn’t legal in campaign finance. Bluntly to the average voter they watch the firehose of money hit super pacs and wonder how this is really any different.

      Finally there’s the simple fact it’s going to be appealed (as will all of his cases) and he’ll probably die of old age before any of them get settled.

      I think the documents case has the biggest chance of impacting him because a lot of trump supporters happen to be military, and they know how extremely fast it’s their entire career if they fuck around with that stuff (and it’s why almost everyone I know who ever went near security clearance hated how Hilary acted about it). The fact that case exists has already been the last straw for some people.

      Jan 6th could also be a thing but they’re going to need some serious testimony.

      8 votes
      1. [9]
        Grumble4681
        Link Parent
        From some of the military people I had been friends with in the past or friends with on Facebook or such, my experience is that they're all bluster. The amount of times I heard about how those in...

        I think the documents case has the biggest chance of impacting him because a lot of trump supporters happen to be military, and they know how extremely fast it’s their entire career if they fuck around with that stuff (and it’s why almost everyone I know who ever went near security clearance hated how Hilary acted about it). The fact that case exists has already been the last straw for some people.

        From some of the military people I had been friends with in the past or friends with on Facebook or such, my experience is that they're all bluster. The amount of times I heard about how those in the military would NEVER support any kind of coup or anything that goes against the constitution, that they swear an oath to the constitution and not to the President and so on, like there was some hard set culture that the constitution was above any person or ideology. Even when you challenged them that they would follow orders if told because there would be consequences to not following orders, they were so steadfast that they would not follow orders against the constitution. While I'm not saying Trump or anyone necessarily ordered them to violate their constitutional oaths, many of them certainly don't seem to give a shit about Trump or other elected officials violating theirs.

        I think the documents case will just be another set of mental gymnastics to arrive at still justifying supporting Trump.

        17 votes
        1. Omnicrola
          Link Parent
          IMO, it's because that's a really easy and clear thing to state in the abstract, and sounds really great especially when echoed by protagonists in movies. Nobody in the military would ever...

          they were so steadfast that they would not follow orders against the constitution.

          IMO, it's because that's a really easy and clear thing to state in the abstract, and sounds really great especially when echoed by protagonists in movies. Nobody in the military would ever disagree.

          However it completely sidesteps the actual stumbling block, which is how each individual person defines what is or is not "against the constitution". That's where we start to get solidly into ambiguous grey areas that often come down to subjective opinion or really really nuanced legal definitions.

          6 votes
        2. [6]
          public
          Link Parent
          I, unfortunately, agree with you that the documents case isn’t likely to have major impact. Certainly more than this case, but not the bombshell revelation. While military people may care, the...

          I, unfortunately, agree with you that the documents case isn’t likely to have major impact. Certainly more than this case, but not the bombshell revelation. While military people may care, the precedent of many previous presidents & VPs taking mementos for their retirements is equally likely to make on-the-fence voters say it’s a politically-motivated hit job if there aren’t concurrent prosecutions of other former White House occupants.

          2 votes
          1. [5]
            MimicSquid
            Link Parent
            The documents case isn't because he had the documents, but because he mishandled them and refused to give them back when asked. Biden had documents he shouldn't have had at his house, but he was...

            The documents case isn't because he had the documents, but because he mishandled them and refused to give them back when asked. Biden had documents he shouldn't have had at his house, but he was investigated and it came to nothing because he gave them back without a fuss and they were kept safe while he had them.

            11 votes
            1. public
              Link Parent
              Thank you for the clarification. That is a significant difference from the other cases.

              Thank you for the clarification. That is a significant difference from the other cases.

              1 vote
            2. [3]
              updawg
              Link Parent
              Oh and they weren't in his bedroom.

              Oh and they weren't in his bedroom.

              1. [2]
                boxer_dogs_dance
                Link Parent
                Or his bathroom

                Or his bathroom

                1 vote
                1. updawg
                  Link Parent
                  Yeah, but there are probably a million bathrooms in that place and having them stored there could be even more out of the way than Biden's garage. But he must have known every little detail of the...

                  Yeah, but there are probably a million bathrooms in that place and having them stored there could be even more out of the way than Biden's garage. But he must have known every little detail of the TS documents in the room where he sleeps every night!

        3. Eji1700
          Link Parent
          It’s all anecdotal but I already know about 6 voters who with Jan 6th and the docs case went from voting trump to never doing it again. It’s hard to tell on a large scale because these voters are...

          It’s all anecdotal but I already know about 6 voters who with Jan 6th and the docs case went from voting trump to never doing it again.

          It’s hard to tell on a large scale because these voters are the minority of the group they’re in, but they’re also the important ones because yes, there’s plenty who will never change their mind

          2 votes
      2. PopNFresh
        Link Parent
        I agree this may have minimal impact and the actual sentence will be pushed off by appeals. The media hasn’t helped by calling this his hush money trial but I feel like you’re misrepresenting the...

        I agree this may have minimal impact and the actual sentence will be pushed off by appeals. The media hasn’t helped by calling this his hush money trial but I feel like you’re misrepresenting the case. If he has just payed her of out of his own pocket as you said that would be legal but that’s not was happened.

        Lying on the documents is what he was charged for. He was found guilty of felony falsification of business records.

        To rise to the level of a felony this requires the falsification to be done with the intent to commit or conceal another crime.

        This other crime is the New York State law about promoting or preventing the election to public office by unlawful means.

        The FECA you noted was one of three potential unlawful means the jurors may have used to find he violated that state law. The others being tax fraud related to the repayment scheme or the additional false documents file associated with the setup of the llc.

        I agree most people don’t understand campaign finance laws but most people are not managing or part of a campaign.

        7 votes
    5. elight
      Link Parent
      At the end of the day, it's the swing states that matter. Most states are known enough quantities so as to be predictable. The swing states are just ambivalent enough that our former...

      At the end of the day, it's the swing states that matter. Most states are known enough quantities so as to be predictable. The swing states are just ambivalent enough that our former felon-in-chief may get re-elected.

      My country continues to find new and worse ways to debase itself.

      4 votes
  5. patience_limited
    Link
    Can we just agree that it's an indictment of America's legal system that Donald Trump has been able to lawyer or bribe his way out of his numerous crimes for so long? Rape, fraud, tax evasion,...

    Can we just agree that it's an indictment of America's legal system that Donald Trump has been able to lawyer or bribe his way out of his numerous crimes for so long? Rape, fraud, tax evasion, extortion, racketeering, immigration violations (including human trafficking), money laundering... not counting his crimes in office. He's failed to pay for contracted work so often that he's practically invented a new form of theft by breach of contract. [I don't think that the RationalWiki entry is an unbiased authoritative source, just the quickest way to get an exhaustively documented and footnoted laundry list of publicly available evidence.]

    Trump's gift, if you can call it that, lies in piling outrage on outrage to the point that you lose sight of the whole picture of grift. He's thrown lawyers at every attempt to hold him accountable, delaying and exhausting his adversaries (usually at taxpayer cost). In the same way that the notorious early 20th Century gangster, Al Capone, was finally jailed for the seemingly minor crime of tax evasion, here's hoping that Trump's "minor" crimes will result in meaningful consequences.

    There's a great Lawfare article from just before yesterday's verdict announcement which explains the logic of the hush money prosecution. It's so outrageously hard to prosecute complex white-collar crime cases that Alvin Bragg sensibly stuck to what he could easily establish for a jury.

    17 votes
  6. scroll_lock
    Link
    Comment box Scope: personal response Tone: neutral Opinion: yes Sarcasm/humor: none Defendant’s political positions on climate resiliency, infrastructure, transportation, and healthcare are...
    Comment box
    • Scope: personal response
    • Tone: neutral
    • Opinion: yes
    • Sarcasm/humor: none

    Defendant’s political positions on climate resiliency, infrastructure, transportation, and healthcare are harmful. His tenure demonstrated an unwillingness to contribute to the public benefit. Therefore I hope that this verdict contributes to the reelection of the incumbent, who has demonstrated much stronger legislation and executive leadership in such matters.

    No opinion on the case itself except to remark that strong business compliance and anti-fraud laws are essential to our institutions. Conviction of “important” people for falsified records demonstrates governmental adherence to the rule of law even under difficult circumstances.

    16 votes
  7. [3]
    roo1ster
    Link
    I'm not generally a fan of using the term 'felon' as a pejorative (at least as it's used in the context of the US justice system and culture), but I really wish in this case it was getting used in...

    I'm not generally a fan of using the term 'felon' as a pejorative (at least as it's used in the context of the US justice system and culture), but I really wish in this case it was getting used in all the headlines at at least. For someone who's not even half paying attention, seeing 'falsifying business documents' felt ?misdemeanor'ish?

    edit: CNN updated their headline to include 'felony' while I was typing this comment, so... yay me?

    9 votes
    1. BHSPitMonkey
      Link Parent
      This particular crime starts off as a misdemeanor, but becomes a felony when the falsification is in furtherance of another crime.

      This particular crime starts off as a misdemeanor, but becomes a felony when the falsification is in furtherance of another crime.

      14 votes
    2. updawg
      Link Parent
      "The rapist felon Donald Trump" is how he should be referred to. The E. Jean Carrol case settled that it was acceptable for her to call him a rapist....

      "The rapist felon Donald Trump" is how he should be referred to. The E. Jean Carrol case settled that it was acceptable for her to call him a rapist.

      “The finding that Ms. Carroll failed to prove that she was ‘raped’ within the meaning of the New York Penal Law does not mean that she failed to prove that Mr. Trump ‘raped’ her as many people commonly understand the word ‘rape,’ ” [Judge] Kaplan wrote.

      He added: “Indeed, as the evidence at trial recounted below makes clear, the jury found that Mr. Trump in fact did exactly that.”

      Kaplan said New York’s legal definition of “rape” is “far narrower” than the word is understood in “common modern parlance.”

      The former requires forcible, unconsented-to penetration with one’s penis. But he said that the conduct the jury effectively found Trump liable for — forced digital penetration — meets a more common definition of rape. He cited definitions offered by the American Psychological Association and the Justice Department, which in 2012 expanded its definition of rape to include penetration “with any body part or object.”

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/07/19/trump-carroll-judge-rape/

      13 votes
  8. [5]
    Nivlak
    Link
    This will only strengthen his base support. I see this as about the same as Martha Stewart being a felon, she is doing just fine if not better than before her crimes.

    This will only strengthen his base support. I see this as about the same as Martha Stewart being a felon, she is doing just fine if not better than before her crimes.

    5 votes
    1. [2]
      an_angry_tiger
      Link Parent
      I mean I guess, but you think being found non-guilty wouldn't have also strengthened his base? We already know all Trump supporters are going to cast aside any negatives about him, I'm not sure...

      I mean I guess, but you think being found non-guilty wouldn't have also strengthened his base?

      We already know all Trump supporters are going to cast aside any negatives about him, I'm not sure there's anything he could even do to dispel that. Hopefully the rest of the people in America who will vote who aren't part of his base will take this as incentive to vote against him.

      14 votes
      1. Akir
        Link Parent
        I tend to get most of my news in the form of news criticism, and over the past 8 years the message I have heard over and over is that covering Trump is a losing proposition because he just gets...

        I tend to get most of my news in the form of news criticism, and over the past 8 years the message I have heard over and over is that covering Trump is a losing proposition because he just gets positive opinions regardless of what he does being postive or negative. The people who were calling him a golden god were not kidding.

        5 votes
    2. Captain_calico
      Link Parent
      You know I wondered about this, but many of the Trump supporters in my area became Robert F Kennedy Jr fans instead. Which I'm not sure if should shrug this off, or take this as a sign that his...

      You know I wondered about this, but many of the Trump supporters in my area became Robert F Kennedy Jr fans instead. Which I'm not sure if should shrug this off, or take this as a sign that his supporters are splintering

      8 votes
    3. unkz
      Link Parent
      I think it will definitely strengthen his base support, but they were already voting for him. Short of voting twice, I don’t know what more the base can do. I think it might have some positive...

      I think it will definitely strengthen his base support, but they were already voting for him. Short of voting twice, I don’t know what more the base can do. I think it might have some positive effect on independents though.

      5 votes
  9. [3]
    SteeeveTheSteve
    Link
    Question for those following this closely, was the act of paying her off illegal? As far as I can tell, that's what influenced the election, not how he claimed it on his business' books. I don't...

    Question for those following this closely, was the act of paying her off illegal? As far as I can tell, that's what influenced the election, not how he claimed it on his business' books. I don't really want to support him and would rather he was in jail for it, but if the only illegal thing was that he lied to the IRS then I can't see how he broke the rule against influencing elections by illegal means.

    It makes no sense to say that calling it a legal expense was concealing the payment to influence the election, he could have legally marked it as a personal expense and paid the business back or taken it as personal income and no one would know what it was for. It's very common for businesses to claim personal expenses are business expenses. It's a risk, but if they are rarely audited then it's worth it to them. The idiot should have been on his best behavior knowing his taxes could easily be audited given how many enemies he has in high places.

    1 vote
    1. [2]
      MimicSquid
      Link Parent
      The thing is, he didn't pay her off. He paid a "news" outlet to buy a scandalous story to prevent the story from being sold to any other outlet, and then had the news outlet choose to not publish...

      The thing is, he didn't pay her off. He paid a "news" outlet to buy a scandalous story to prevent the story from being sold to any other outlet, and then had the news outlet choose to not publish the story, preventing its release elsewhere. That's election interference. That's the bit that makes it a felony. And then to hide the fact that he did it, he had his lawyer (Cohen) make the payments to the news outlet, and then paid Cohen as if it was for legal fees. That's the falsifying business records. Those would normally be misdemeanors, but because it was done to further the goal of election interference, they were upgraded to felonies.

      Does that make sense? For all that everyone is focusing on Stormy Daniels because that's the salacious bit, she's not actually central to the case. It could have been any other embarrassing story that got squashed this way.

      And in fact the head of that "news" outlet has gotten protection from prosecution in a number of other cases where he testified that he engaged in "catch and kill" tactics regarding embarrassing stories about other politicians, including one just a few months before the election of Governor Schwarzenegger.

      Does that help give some context?

      16 votes
      1. SteeeveTheSteve
        Link Parent
        Yes that helps a lot, thanks! Sounds like good news, it'll be much harder to weasel out of it, especially with so many eyes watching. 😊 Now if only his cult following would stop believing him.

        Yes that helps a lot, thanks! Sounds like good news, it'll be much harder to weasel out of it, especially with so many eyes watching. 😊

        Now if only his cult following would stop believing him.

        3 votes
  10. Espen
    Link
    Its so crazy.. President or jailbird.

    Its so crazy.. President or jailbird.

  11. l_one
    (edited )
    Link
    I feel depressingly sure that even if sentenced to prison, the RNC will still run Trump as their candidate for president while he is in prison. How f'd up would that be? I genuinely believe the...

    I feel depressingly sure that even if sentenced to prison, the RNC will still run Trump as their candidate for president while he is in prison. How f'd up would that be?

    I genuinely believe the world as we know it won't survive another Trump presidency. If he gets the office one of the first things he's sure to do is cut off support for Ukraine, probably to the extent of not honoring existing bills that have passed in terms of aid already authorized but not yet delivered, leaving it with only what support Europe can put together (which certainly isn't nothing, but in terms of raw volume of direct, materiel lethal aid, the US turning off the tap would likely be devastating).

    Then there is the ripple effect from that towards China/Taiwan. Russia's invasion of Ukraine, how the world reacts to it in real, material terms (financial and lethal aid, maybe even troops eventually? Troops are very much uncertain and unlikely at this time, but are being discussed - though I would currently consider it to be posturing in the same language in which Putin does nuclear saber rattling) is something China is paying close attention to and has an interest in. It is a litmus test of sorts. If Russia gets to make and effectively keep any territorial gains with the world perceived as accepting those gains, no matter how grudgingly, it would show Xi that he could get away with the same if he invades and can take Taiwan, further emboldening him. To be fair, it seems likely at this point he's going to go for it anyway, with the current most probable timeframe being fall 2025 (fall having the probability of the most favorable weather, and by 2025 China is projected to have finished a larger portion of amphibious platforms 'Type 075' I know of, possibly others? I'd have to check CSIS) - but fall of 2024 is... possible. Considered less likely though.

    The US, strategically, CANNOT AFFORD for China to control Taiwan. Taiwan's sub-5nm equivalent node capacity is critically important, and it's capture (or, to a lesser extent, total destruction to prevent capture), would represent a significant shift of certain aspects of strategic power in the short and medium-term. While we are trying to build and activate latest-generation chip-fab nodes (CHIPS-ACT), doing so is not only incredibly complex and difficult, it also takes a long time to get up and running. But even worse, if Trump is in office, I genuinely could see him ignoring his generals, ignoring the SecDef (or having replaced the SecDef with a loyalist) and just... let it happen. His buddy Putin would see it as a good thing, perhaps not directly for Russia, but as a secondary effect of weakening the US and the western-aligned nations in general. Even if Trump isn't as close to Xi as he is to Putin, he has very publicly expressed his admiration of autocrats and dictators, including Xi.

    17 votes
  12. Fin
    Link
    looks like my afternoon has a meeting with some cheap beer

    looks like my afternoon has a meeting with some cheap beer

    12 votes
  13. BeanBurrito
    Link
    A convicted felon the candidate for "the law and order party".

    A convicted felon the candidate for "the law and order party".

    2 votes