He didn't address the blackmail mischaracterization of the Apollo dev in his post, which I'm honestly most interested in. I wonder if the lawyers will prevent him from answering any questions...
He didn't address the blackmail mischaracterization of the Apollo dev in his post, which I'm honestly most interested in. I wonder if the lawyers will prevent him from answering any questions about it, considering all the mentions of defamation being thrown around. What a disgusting situation.
His “joke” is the least of our issues. His behavior and communications with us has been all over the place—saying one thing to us while saying something completely different externally; recording and leaking a private phone call—to the point where I don’t know how we could do business with him.
The Apollo dev replied asking for examples. What a mess.
He didn't but he doubled down in the comments section and was challenged by Christian (the Apollo dev) to provide any proof. So far he's made 9 comments 60 minutes in and they've all been either...
He didn't but he doubled down in the comments section and was challenged by Christian (the Apollo dev) to provide any proof.
His “joke” is the least of our issues. His behavior and communications with us has been all over the place—saying one thing to us while saying something completely different externally; recording and leaking a private phone call—to the point where I don’t know how we could do business with him.
So far he's made 6 9 comments 36 60 minutes in and they've all been either duplicitous, outright lies or just purposefully missing the point.
He's also very purposefully avoiding all the most upvoted questions/comments.
This is exactly why I expressed doubts yesterday about reddit's ability to review 3PAs, work with them, and make exceptions for useful tools. If they hadn't responded to this dev after 3 months,...
This is exactly why I expressed doubts yesterday about reddit's ability to review 3PAs, work with them, and make exceptions for useful tools. If they hadn't responded to this dev after 3 months, there's no reason to believe they'll respond to anyone else timely.
Honestly, I feel like the questions he is responding to are scripted questions the admin team is asking under other accounts. There was one comment he made where the started with A. Like from a...
In this archive link you can see that it was A:, which you just do to mark your answer (Q&As are generally in Question: Answer: or Interviewer: Name: format). Much more likely than a bulleted...
In this archive link you can see that it was A:, which you just do to mark your answer (Q&As are generally in Question: Answer: or Interviewer: Name: format). Much more likely than a bulleted list.
Doesn't change that everything else about this Q&A was a huge mess...
So.. interesting that he would attempt defamation against someone, huh? I wonder if he's going to use his position to screw the Apollo dev.
Edit: I just sent an email to the ADL staff regarding the issue (you can, too here - https://www.adl.org/contact but be sure to select "Center for Technology and Society" for the topic of inquiry). Here's what I wrote:
Hi, I'm seriously concerned about the behavior of one of your Board of Advisors, Steve Huffman, on Reddit. He has apparently accused a 3rd party app developer of blackmailing and threatening him due to the change in pricing of Reddit's API access. Despite these accusations being proven wrong by the app developer (who recorded his call with Huffman from Canada, which has a one party consent law), Huffman doubled down and didn't rescind his accusation during his AskMeAnything thread on June 9th: https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
Instead, his response to a question about this accusation was:
"His 'joke' is the least of our issues. His behavior and communications with us has been all over the place—saying one thing to us while saying something completely different externally; recording and leaking a private phone call—to the point where I don’t know how we could do business with him." This is false information according to the app developer's post, who said he only "leaked" the information and records to defend himself from the accusation (which, again, he has the legal right to do so).
Huffman continuing his accusations of blackmail and threats in public on Reddit is, in my eyes, defamation. And so this is why his position on your board is deeply troubling to me. I am requesting your team to look into this and ensure that this behavior is corrected and/or reprimanded.
I'm assuming @oslypsis is focusing on the defamation part of antidefamation and not aware/paying attention to the fact that the ADL pretty much only cares about Jews and Jewishness, not defamation...
I'm assuming @oslypsis is focusing on the defamation part of antidefamation and not aware/paying attention to the fact that the ADL pretty much only cares about Jews and Jewishness, not defamation itself.
Oh, no no. I didn't intend to compare anything. I saw that the ADL also stands for black rights and many other things as well. I just think it's a bad look on them to have someone on their team...
Oh, no no. I didn't intend to compare anything. I saw that the ADL also stands for black rights and many other things as well. I just think it's a bad look on them to have someone on their team defaming anyone (in any type of way, for any reason) when their team is trying to stop defamation. It at best sends mixed signals, and at worst indicates preferential treatment/corruption in the organization if nothing is done about it.
Though now that I think about it, the whole point as to why people need the ADL in general is because the ones defaming them are the "big guys" and they're the "little guys" in terms of power/influence/etc. Likewise, the Apollo dev is a solo developer, while spez is the CEO of a ginormous company. In that way, one could draw a loose comparison imo.
On this page of their site, they include "online harassment" as one of the things they fight. https://www.adl.org/what-we-do/disrupt-online-hate-harassment
But yes, I do understand that spez didn't target the Apollo dev because of his race, gender, religion, etc.
It's interesting how people here and on Reddit refer to the ADL in regards to the controversy with the Apollo dev. Are ya'll not aware that the ADL is a Jewish organization and almost exclusively...
It's interesting how people here and on Reddit refer to the ADL in regards to the controversy with the Apollo dev. Are ya'll not aware that the ADL is a Jewish organization and almost exclusively exists to fight anti-semitism and not much else?
I think the hope is that they'll find his reputation to be potentially harmful to their reputation, even if it's not related to their cause. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head,...
I think the hope is that they'll find his reputation to be potentially harmful to their reputation, even if it's not related to their cause. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but I'm sure other companies have dropped people who got caught up in unrelated scandals so that the public wouldn't judge them by association.
That said, not sure the ADL would find the reddit drama to be scandalous enough to cut ties.
I’ve worked with the ADL in a past job. They actually do care if someone is making them look bad because it hurts their mission and cause. Jewish people already have an uphill battle with people...
I’ve worked with the ADL in a past job. They actually do care if someone is making them look bad because it hurts their mission and cause. Jewish people already have an uphill battle with people thinking we’re money and power hungry so it stands to reason they may scrutinize this a bit more.
I definitely get that, I just don't know if they would consider the current reddit drama to be significant enough to worry about it impacting their image. At the moment, the discontent seems...
I definitely get that, I just don't know if they would consider the current reddit drama to be significant enough to worry about it impacting their image. At the moment, the discontent seems pretty contained to reddit and is mainly being reported on in tech and financial circles, so it may not ping on their radars as particularly noteworthy. They might write it off as the usual sort of internet discontent and complaints.
I hope they don’t, for the sake of the rest of the internet. But you’re probably right. It would be nice to actually get some traction and see Reddit get it’s just desserts, but who knows.
I hope they don’t, for the sake of the rest of the internet. But you’re probably right. It would be nice to actually get some traction and see Reddit get it’s just desserts, but who knows.
Not exactly true. It’s there to fight antisemitism and also works to fight other forms of bigotry. Originally it was just antisemitism, and became the premier org in the USA to fight anti-Jewish...
Not exactly true. It’s there to fight antisemitism and also works to fight other forms of bigotry. Originally it was just antisemitism, and became the premier org in the USA to fight anti-Jewish bigotry.
I don't see how any of Steve's actions justify taking such an extreme action of poisoning his political outreach in areas outside of reddit. I understand that people are upset about losing...
I just sent an email to the ADL staff regarding the issue (you can, too here)
I don't see how any of Steve's actions justify taking such an extreme action of poisoning his political outreach in areas outside of reddit. I understand that people are upset about losing third-party apps (I am too), but it's no excuse to burn down the man's life.
I didn't specifically ask for them to remove him or fire him. Just that they address it and correct/reprimand him. Also, if they decide he is not fit for their team, that's his own actions causing...
I didn't specifically ask for them to remove him or fire him. Just that they address it and correct/reprimand him. Also, if they decide he is not fit for their team, that's his own actions causing the poisoning. I'm not trying to burn down his life, even though he tried to do that to a small developer...
Pointing out someone's bad behaviour is absolutely not burning down the man's life. His bad behaviour on its own may be, but that's not on the person who pointed it out.
Pointing out someone's bad behaviour is absolutely not burning down the man's life. His bad behaviour on its own may be, but that's not on the person who pointed it out.
I agree that reddit isn't going to immediately collapse. Once the subreddit shutdown has finished (forcefully or otherwise), most users will continuing using the official app and New Reddit like...
Exemplary
I agree that reddit isn't going to immediately collapse. Once the subreddit shutdown has finished (forcefully or otherwise), most users will continuing using the official app and New Reddit like nothing happened.
But something will have happened. Any goodwill left with reddit's best users, the ones who pay attention and care about preserving their community's health, will be completely spent. Some of them will immediately leave, causing some measure of brain drain, but many will probably stay...on active lookout for a replacement.
And I think that's the key. There's no obvious replacement right now, so there will be no change. But when that replacement finally comes (and it will), the best of reddit's community, starving to jump ship, will leave in droves. I don't know how big that jump will be compared to their total users, but it will have a noticeable impact on the community. The site will degrade, content and comments will get even worse, and reddit's reputation will eventually change. Then more users will leave, and the cycle will eventually kill the site as we know it.
You're right that reddit will survive this month, but the foundation of its collapse has already been laid.
I hope you're right, but the problem here is that overcoming the network effect is hard. People have hated facebook since forever, and it took a long time for that place to collapse, even after it...
I hope you're right, but the problem here is that overcoming the network effect is hard. People have hated facebook since forever, and it took a long time for that place to collapse, even after it had become clearly horrible. Making a superior facebook alternative is trivial, but FB is where everyone was, so that is where everyone stayed. If people wanted a reddit-like experience with 20 other users, they can - right now - join one of the lemmy instances that are being promoted as a replacement. But that is not what people want. So if people are going to migrate, it mostly has to happen en masse. The arrival on the scene of a viable replacement isn't enough. There has to be coordination amongst users to change, which seemingly only happens when there is a catalyst event. And, to make this problem even more challenging, there seems to be little motivation to create a suitable replacement, since the odds of people picking the new option over reddit is quite low, so when catalysts do come along, there are no replacements available. Facebook has basically never been replaced, it has just slowly lost steam as people shift to other kinds of social media altogether (tiktok, etc).
Nobody wants another Facebook. That era of social media is done. People don't move on to another Facebook, they stop using Facebooks altogether. People are desperate for another reddit. Link...
Nobody wants another Facebook. That era of social media is done. People don't move on to another Facebook, they stop using Facebooks altogether.
People are desperate for another reddit. Link aggregation has enormous legs. But I agree - to be another reddit, you have to have a ton of users, and a ton of content. So for something to take off, it has to be more than its content - there has to be something exciting to draw users in. And that doesn't exist yet.
But I think it'll be as simple as that: Low effort, low user reddit clones won't do it, but exciting new link aggregation concept will. The community will know when they see it.
The FB era may be dead now, but there was a long time period during which a lot of people did want a facebook replacement. My impression is that people hated and kept using facebook far more than...
The FB era may be dead now, but there was a long time period during which a lot of people did want a facebook replacement. My impression is that people hated and kept using facebook far more than people hate reddit. The fact that the replacement never happened is a warning that the reddit replacement may never happen.
The network effect for Reddit is subtly different though. I don't have any particular love for specific Redditors, outside of /u/Poem_for_your_sprog and other such commenters. I stayed on Facebook...
The network effect for Reddit is subtly different though. I don't have any particular love for specific Redditors, outside of /u/Poem_for_your_sprog and other such commenters. I stayed on Facebook as long as I did because my friends and family were there and easy to contact that way. I don't have the same investment in other Redditors, though I've used the site for longer than I used Facebook.
since it started to become clear what reddit was doing with the API changes, i've been thinking pretty much incessantly about this article about what it takes to drive a userbase away, and why...
since it started to become clear what reddit was doing with the API changes, i've been thinking pretty much incessantly about this article about what it takes to drive a userbase away, and why they don't come back.
Thermocline...such a great analogy. One thing I haven't been able to understand is how something like spez can go from someone who loves what reddit is, to fighting what reddit is. There must be a...
Thermocline...such a great analogy.
One thing I haven't been able to understand is how something like spez can go from someone who loves what reddit is, to fighting what reddit is. There must be a corruption thermocline. Where you just wake up one day as the villain to people you once cared for. But would you ever let yourself see that in the mirror?
Re: but he used to love reddit, why? Reddit is many things to many people, and people grow old and change. Steve Huffman and Alexis Ohanian (and Aaron Swartz (+) joined) launched Reddit in 2005,...
Exemplary
Re: but he used to love reddit, why?
Reddit is many things to many people, and people grow old and change.
Steve Huffman and Alexis Ohanian (and Aaron Swartz (+) joined) launched Reddit in 2005, mentored by Paul Graham's Y Combinator (YC) startup accelerator. The mentality is that young smart people should make startups instead of working for someone else, that wealth can be generated instead of merely earned in a zero sum way. PG himself made something and sold it and became financially independent this way, and most if not all of the first class of yc believed in this relatively new way of entrepreneual dream.
"Huffman and Ohanian sold Reddit to Condé Nast Publications, owner of Wired, on October 31, 2006, for a reported $10 million to $20 million" Wikipedia
That doesn't sound like a lot compared to the hundreds of millions per thing pricetag we've come to see today, but compared to the rest of the 2005-6 class did: (wiki), they did pretty well for themselves. Airbnb and dropbox came a few years later. In fact, Huffman and Ohanian's first idea before reddit was basically Doordash (YC 2013) using SMS.
I don't particularly remember instances of Huffman seeing Redditors as "people you once cared for". He officially left Reddit in 2009 afterall.
But here's what he did say about Reddit in 2014:
Regret is a strong word but if I knew what I knew now, I wouldn't have sold," [...] It kind of stings a little bit when I think about how much money I left on the table. [The sale] was a big deal for me at the time. I was 22 and it seemed like a lot of money for me. In hindsight it was a mistake to sell but at the time it was very exciting. I didn't think Reddit was going to keep growing – I thought it was dead. We were so dysfunctional internally. It seemed like the smartest thing to do was just to try and get some money out of it while we could."
But almost nine years later, and eight years since the company's sale to media giant Conde Nast turned the duo into millionaires
The full terms of that 2006 deal have never been made public but the feeling is that had they held out, Huffman and Ohanian could now be billionaires.
My reddit account is old. Someone told me they looked it up and it was among the first thousand, when the founders were making ghost alts for traffic. The thing is, this is where I, [edit] an ex-content creator for Reddit, differ from Huffman: I always believed in Reddit and I always loved it as a community. When he sold it, he thought Reddit was dead. Other users like me remember 2006 Reddit much more fondly than that.
Huffman has never loved Reddit or its users. we were always a product to him. He thought it was dead in 2006 and he almost certainly thinks it's dying now. The only thing he wants now is to be richer than he was at 22.
Excellent point. It has to be the money, or the power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, etc etc. But to see the users not as people here on this same wonderful journey with him and instead as...
Excellent point. It has to be the money, or the power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, etc etc. But to see the users not as people here on this same wonderful journey with him and instead as enemies collaborating against him? And his weird fixation on Selig? It's all very strange.
I think it's just about motivation. When he made reddit, he wanted what we wanted. Cut to 18 years and 1.3 billion dollars in funding later, and he's been slowly frog boiled to want something...
I think it's just about motivation. When he made reddit, he wanted what we wanted. Cut to 18 years and 1.3 billion dollars in funding later, and he's been slowly frog boiled to want something else. The pressure must be enormous, and he's been squeezed into another world. A different person - our villain, but someone else's general.
The world he lives in is so completely like the one he lived in eighteen years ago, not least because he's twice the age he was when this project started, but every other facet of how he can...
The world he lives in is so completely like the one he lived in eighteen years ago, not least because he's twice the age he was when this project started, but every other facet of how he can define himself must have changed along with. (Frog-boiled is a great term.)
100% off-topic response (and feel free to label it as such) but I couldn't let "the foundation of its collapse has already been laid" pass by unremarked upon. That's probably the most outrageous...
100% off-topic response (and feel free to label it as such) but I couldn't let "the foundation of its collapse has already been laid" pass by unremarked upon. That's probably the most outrageous example of a mixed metaphor I've ever seen!
My hope is that the content creators will leave. A majority of users just browse, a small amount comment, and an even smaller amount post. People who post regularly are more likely to be privy to...
My hope is that the content creators will leave. A majority of users just browse, a small amount comment, and an even smaller amount post. People who post regularly are more likely to be privy to this current drama than the majority that just browse. So if the people who actually make posts start leaving, then there's less content for the majority to stick around for.
Well, considering the third party apps are soon to evaporate, I think that maybe this time... yes, a good chunk of users will quit, or at least trade up websites/apps for something else. All that...
Well, considering the third party apps are soon to evaporate, I think that maybe this time... yes, a good chunk of users will quit, or at least trade up websites/apps for something else. All that will be left is another wretched hive of scum and villainy... and an IPO that, god willing, bankrupts everyone that touches it.
I think it's less that they're overall super popular and more that they're disproportionately used by moderators and power users. I would bet 3rd party app usage is directly correlated with...
I think it's less that they're overall super popular and more that they're disproportionately used by moderators and power users. I would bet 3rd party app usage is directly correlated with account age. Reddit is 18 years old, with a large group of users having joined during the Dig fiasco 13 years ago. The official app is only 7 years old, so anyone who joined before that likely used a 3rd party app at some point.
I also think a lot of mods are at somewhat of a tipping point. They provide a tremendous amount of free labor to reddit and in return reddit treats them like shit.
While it's true that most high-profile users didn't leave Twitter when Musk took over, I (a normal pleb with less than 100 followers) did and I know at least one coworker who did too (honestly...
While it's true that most high-profile users didn't leave Twitter when Musk took over, I (a normal pleb with less than 100 followers) did and I know at least one coworker who did too (honestly Twitter was already a toxic influence so it was actually a hugely positive step for me). I don't think the group of people doing this is anything close to the majority or anything, but I do think people who don't have big followings leaving isn't likely to be very overtly visible to users but has already impacted the site culture and its ad revenue.
I didn’t have a large following at all, only around 1000 followers. I also left and took my ball with me. I just have my “art brand” on twitter still but rarely post just in case something good...
I didn’t have a large following at all, only around 1000 followers. I also left and took my ball with me. I just have my “art brand” on twitter still but rarely post just in case something good happens and it becomes viable to use again. My art brand also has like 5 followers. So there’s that.
yeah I kept my account on twitter so no one would steal my username but set it to private and deleted the app from my phone (or at least my home screen). That ended up doing it for me, and...
yeah I kept my account on twitter so no one would steal my username but set it to private and deleted the app from my phone (or at least my home screen). That ended up doing it for me, and honestly my mental health is a lot better without Twitter doomscrolling.
Absolutely! My mental health is more important and I have a lot of other issues going on that take up more space than twitter, Reddit is honestly the same. The only reason I got onto mastodon was...
Absolutely! My mental health is more important and I have a lot of other issues going on that take up more space than twitter, Reddit is honestly the same. The only reason I got onto mastodon was so I could get news updates, and since I live in California, earthquake updates because USGS info is fun! Oh and the Disneyland live updates on rides being down is hilarious. Otherwise I can enjoy more reading and participating in more simple fora here. I just wish I could find a place where geocachers actually congregate outside of Facebook because I want to join in, but I refuse to go back.
There isn't a viable alternative for people to flee to. Ultimately, the existence of reddit during the digg v4 debacle is what led to its demise. They also double downed when users were...
There isn't a viable alternative for people to flee to. Ultimately, the existence of reddit during the digg v4 debacle is what led to its demise. They also double downed when users were complaining about the redesign instead of listening.
Sadly that just doesn't exist now. Because of that I think the vast majority of users will stick around and this will all blow over in a few weeks.
Same is true for Twitter. If bluesky social was ready to open up signups soon, i think twitter would have lost a large percentage of its userbase. And that would have slowly killed it. Timing has to be just right and
I know that I need to stick around until the SCOTUS rules on the loan forgiveness as Reddit is the best place to get clear, concise information about it, and I might stick around to get financial...
I know that I need to stick around until the SCOTUS rules on the loan forgiveness as Reddit is the best place to get clear, concise information about it, and I might stick around to get financial help with some things I'm going through, but otherwise I will be leaving. I needed to get off the platform since it caused me to spiral down into a horribly deep depression/anxiety period in my life, crippling me totally. Reducing my use of the site actually significantly improved my perception of reality.
But like a car full of clowns doing party tricks, because this is hilarious to watch. Also a little heart breaking. And very distracting, I'm not getting any work done this afternoon at all.
But like a car full of clowns doing party tricks, because this is hilarious to watch. Also a little heart breaking. And very distracting, I'm not getting any work done this afternoon at all.
It’s hard to believe they think so little of redditors that they believe we will believe the lies they’re telling. How can they hope to do an IPO with spez in charge? He’s a walking liability.
It’s hard to believe they think so little of redditors that they believe we will believe the lies they’re telling. How can they hope to do an IPO with spez in charge? He’s a walking liability.
How do they do an IPO when they said themselves that reddit isn't profitable. I don't know why anyone would invest in that dumpster fire of a site. And they could have been profitable if they...
How do they do an IPO when they said themselves that reddit isn't profitable. I don't know why anyone would invest in that dumpster fire of a site. And they could have been profitable if they actually spent
their money wisely over the years.
Of course moderation tools are an afterthought in this process. Those features should have been tested and released ages ago rather than leaving people scrambling like this. ETA: I have a hard...
We need more efficient moderation tools, especially on mobile. They are coming.
Of course moderation tools are an afterthought in this process. Those features should have been tested and released ages ago rather than leaving people scrambling like this.
ETA: I have a hard time believing this quote from the post:
About 3% of mod actions come from third-party apps
mod tools are an afterthought because they were never an actual "thought". reddit never really cared about mod tools until the community did their thing and improved them. an example:...
mod tools are an afterthought because they were never an actual "thought". reddit never really cared about mod tools until the community did their thing and improved them.
Automod is the reason that I believe the 3%, but also the reason that I think that the 3% is a really misleading statistic. "Lies, damn lies, and statistics" For example, last time I was really...
Automod is the reason that I believe the 3%, but also the reason that I think that the 3% is a really misleading statistic. "Lies, damn lies, and statistics"
For example, last time I was really into moderating a relatively large subreddit, Automoderator performed about 80% of the mod actions, because we had a fairly elaborate Automod setup. Those would all be considered non-third-party moderator actions. On top of that, we had some bot moderators that did about 10% of actions. So 10% of mod actions were done by humans.
So if 3% of mod actions are done by third party apps, and 10% of mod actions are done by humans, then about 30% of human mod actions are done on third party apps, and that feels about right to me.
Regexes are one of my favorite things, you'll have to pry them from my cold, dead hands. But seriously, I actually built the basis for something along the lines of "AutoModerator 2.0" into Tildes,...
Regexes are one of my favorite things, you'll have to pry them from my cold, dead hands.
But seriously, I actually built the basis for something along the lines of "AutoModerator 2.0" into Tildes, but it's not being used for anything yet: support for processing posts using Lua scripts.
There's a really simple example in the commit message:
For example, here is a Lua script that would prepend a new topic's title with "[Text] " or "[Link] " depending on its type, as well
as replace its tags with either "text" or "link":
function on_topic_post (topic)
if (topic.is_text_type) then
topic.title = "[Text] " .. topic.title
topic.tags = {"text"}
elseif (topic.is_link_type) then
topic.title = "[Link] " .. topic.title
topic.tags = {"link"}
end
end
I have no trouble believing that a lot of "mod actions" are technically fully automated, drowning out the third party apps. For example, I wouldn't doubt for a second if it was something like 95%...
About 3% of mod actions come from third-party apps
I have no trouble believing that a lot of "mod actions" are technically fully automated, drowning out the third party apps.
For example, I wouldn't doubt for a second if it was something like 95% fully automated, 3% third-party apps, 1% new-reddit and official app, 1% old reddit.
This is brutal, but entertaining, to read. I'm absolutely flabbergasted that he's doubled down on attacking the Apollo dev by saying that he leaked a private conversation which the dev only felt...
This is brutal, but entertaining, to read.
I'm absolutely flabbergasted that he's doubled down on attacking the Apollo dev by saying that he leaked a private conversation which the dev only felt like he needed to do after the CEO of a huge social media company claimed he tried to blackmail them, spez is just an absolute snake, unbelievable.
I’m kind of surprised that he even responded to something about that situation. I’m sure his PR/lawyer team told him not to but his ego got the best of him.
I’m kind of surprised that he even responded to something about that situation. I’m sure his PR/lawyer team told him not to but his ego got the best of him.
Same! I was convinced when they announced the AMA that it was going to be a false retreat, where they "apologized for the misunderstanding" and delayed the changes by a few months or something to...
Same! I was convinced when they announced the AMA that it was going to be a false retreat, where they "apologized for the misunderstanding" and delayed the changes by a few months or something to try to get the heat to calm down. The fact that they just fully showed up and reiterated their bs was a stunning misstep to me.
I fully acknowledge following this thread when I've been disconnected from "Reddit drama" for a while is basically the digital equivalent to junk food, but as they say "grab the popcorn". Reddit's...
I fully acknowledge following this thread when I've been disconnected from "Reddit drama" for a while is basically the digital equivalent to junk food, but as they say "grab the popcorn". Reddit's actions over the past week have seemed so greedy that its almost comical, and I am curious to what extent spez is even going to attempt to defend them. I think I saw another user here mention it, but his replies already have the potential to be the most downvoted ever on Reddit. Talk about getting on stage in front of a hostile audience.
I still don't understand why they fired Victoria back then. She had turned Reddit AMA's into global events and was probably worth her weight in gold to Reddit in terms of eyeballs, influence,...
I still don't understand why they fired Victoria back then. She had turned Reddit AMA's into global events and was probably worth her weight in gold to Reddit in terms of eyeballs, influence, prestige, etc. I can't think of a single memorable AMA since she was fired.
I specifically searched to see if he'd reply to any questions about accessibility for blind and visually impaired users, since that's one of the most egregious side effects of this whole ordeal....
I specifically searched to see if he'd reply to any questions about accessibility for blind and visually impaired users, since that's one of the most egregious side effects of this whole ordeal.
I for one know it makes sense to have some answers prepared in advance for predicted questions, I don't fault him for that. But given the fact this change will actively discriminate against a decent portion of reddit... Well, his prepared response isn't very satisfying. Particularly for the specific question he replied to, which has a detailed list of questions that really merit a more serious and detailed answer.
Here's the original question on reddit, and then here's his response. Linking them separately since I use the mobile site where the second link doesn't show the parent comment, and his answer is...
It definitely does. What has people so worked up is that the initial inclusion of "A:" indicates it was most likely copied from a document of pre-prepared questions and responses. Like "Q: What...
It definitely does. What has people so worked up is that the initial inclusion of "A:" indicates it was most likely copied from a document of pre-prepared questions and responses. Like "Q: What are the plans for pushshift? A: [insert canned response here]". Again, I don't fault them for preparing some answers like that in advance, saves time since you can predict a couple of the questions likely to come up and you can make sure the wordage won't be likely to cause trouble. Feels like basic PR strategy.
My particular issue is that particular response is so generic, and doesn't actually address the actual questions of the original poster. They aren't just loaded questions to rag on reddit's decisions, they're seriously thought-out about details like how reddit will determine accessibility apps, the process for apps to declare themselves exempt from API pricing, whether reddit guarantees they'll be exempt indefinitely, etc. They're the kind of questions that merit being properly addressed with a full reply.
It feels like he looked for the most popular comment asking about accessibility for blind and visually impaired users so he could post that pre-prepared response, regardless of the comment's content itself. That makes me wonder if he planned to fully respond to any question.
Yes, but why would he deliberately type that and then delete it, especially when his other replies didn't start with it? It certainly gives the impression that he copy/pasted from a canned list of...
Yes, but why would he deliberately type that and then delete it, especially when his other replies didn't start with it? It certainly gives the impression that he copy/pasted from a canned list of answers, and that's not a great look in this situation, to put it mildly.
The questions are pretty bad. Most of them are loaded and in bad faith at best, and many are just insults with a question mark at the end. It’s not that I necessarily feel bad for spez, he knew...
The questions are pretty bad. Most of them are loaded and in bad faith at best, and many are just insults with a question mark at the end. It’s not that I necessarily feel bad for spez, he knew what he was getting into and how Reddit mobs operate, but it’s still disgusting to see.
At this point he's earned it. I'm not even mad at loaded questions at this point. The majority of the questions I read were legitimate though, and anything that remotely had legitimate criticism...
At this point he's earned it. I'm not even mad at loaded questions at this point. The majority of the questions I read were legitimate though, and anything that remotely had legitimate criticism went unanswered.
CEO posts an AMA to stroke his ego- deserves what he gets. Posting an AMA as an exercise in avoiding all tough questions is just amazing. Unfit to be the CEO of anything. What a way to make a joke of what AMAs are supposed to be.
I personally feel like people that posted questions that are strongly, emotionally worded criticism are valid to do so- watching a CEO slowly ruin a site you've put a lot of time into and get a lot out of, is a tough pill to swallow. I'm also biased because I'll freely admit I posted a comment there that's very snarky. But it's how I feel.
It's cathartic to see the outpouring of frustration after the shitshow this has become. I don't expect reddit to do the right thing at any point in the future, and there's little chance of...
It's cathartic to see the outpouring of frustration after the shitshow this has become. I don't expect reddit to do the right thing at any point in the future, and there's little chance of learning anything meaningful from spez, so simply seeing our feedback expressed so clearly and in such volume feels great.
Here's the thing though. The only way they become profitable is though the user engagement. That can be used to train ai. However they could literally just tell the ai to browse reddit via the web...
Here's the thing though. The only way they become profitable is though the user engagement. That can be used to train ai. However they could literally just tell the ai to browse reddit via the web page. Thus circumventing the api call and they still lose that money.
The other outcome of this mess is the huge loss of users and their content. Once those leave then so does the profitability of the site.
As for increasing the ipo that will back fire as they will be loosing far more userser then they will gain. Making them a loosing bet.
If another reddit clone reached out to the devs of the 3rd party apps they could jump their user base overnight with this huge outrage.
Since this is reddit we are talking about it'll either be a nothing burger or the whole thing will be burned to the ground. So I guess this is your hill to die one reddit admin.
I'm a moderator on /r/redditisfun and, believe me, they are reaching out. And users have been requesting RiF pivot to everything from Usenet to Lemmy to a reddit web scraper to coming together and...
If another reddit clone reached out to the devs of the 3rd party apps
I'm a moderator on /r/redditisfun and, believe me, they are reaching out. And users have been requesting RiF pivot to everything from Usenet to Lemmy to a reddit web scraper to coming together and building their own reddit competitor. (Some of these people are desperate, man.)
The thing is, though, is that most 3rd party app devs don't have interest in just building an app for some new random website. They all chose reddit because they were redditors and saw a niche in third-party apps that they wanted to try and fill.
It was an alignment of passion and interests; without the passion, it would just be work.
It makes some sense to be honest, they need to pay the bills somehow. The issue is that people are used to have things for free, so it's hard to make them pay and they have to resort to...
It makes some sense to be honest, they need to pay the bills somehow. The issue is that people are used to have things for free, so it's hard to make them pay and they have to resort to bulshittery.
I'm afraid in the current state of neo-liberal capitalism : investor money is used to give people free candies, and once it runs out things turn sour and then we go for another round with another company.
I completely disagree. Of course there are always going to be people who want things to remain free forever, but I've seen a lot of support for the idea of reddit charging money for API requests....
The issue is that people are used to have things for free, so it's hard to make them pay and they have to resort to bulshittery.
I completely disagree. Of course there are always going to be people who want things to remain free forever, but I've seen a lot of support for the idea of reddit charging money for API requests. It's totally reasonable for them to, and it's surprising they haven't tried this before. But Spez specifically emphasized to the 3PA devs when they made the initial announcement that the pricing would be reasonable. Then reddit announced the pricing with only a few weeks until the changes go into effect and the pricing was NOT reasonable. And when Spez was called out on it, he doubled-down and lied about it. And that was BEFORE this AMA where he's doing the exact same thing all over again.
If the pricing were reasonable, the 3PA devs could work the added expense into their own prices. But the prices aren't reasonable, so they can't pass those expenses on and keep things priced sanely. Not to mention the issue of for-life subscriptions that would actually cost the devs money to continue to support.
I agree completely, though I admit I know very little about the economics of this. But looking at what Deimos has said about the costs of running this server, my impression is that Reddit added so...
I agree completely, though I admit I know very little about the economics of this. But looking at what Deimos has said about the costs of running this server, my impression is that Reddit added so much unnecessary junk to the platform, and that's what has made it so expensive to run. They didn't need to add image or video hosting or chat or whatever else they have. Frankly, when I see a reddit-hosted image, I don't want to click it, because I know it's going to load as slowly as an image from the 56k days (though to be honest, I only ever had 28.8k speed back then).
And if they weren't a for-profit company, people would be more willing to donate to them. The few times I've gotten Reddit Gold, I've been more annoyed that someone wasted their money than pleased that someone was grateful for what I posted. This wouldn't be the case with "Tildes Gold," if there were such a thing. I like the people here and I like the platform. I can't remember ever liking the Reddit platform (though I've only been there for 10 years).
/u/Deimos Here's my request to implement a tildes gold, that would make a donation to a nonprofit of the receiver's choice (ideally configurable in your user profile, maybe as a list if the giver...
/u/Deimos Here's my request to implement a tildes gold, that would make a donation to a nonprofit of the receiver's choice (ideally configurable in your user profile, maybe as a list if the giver is opposed to your first choice charity)
I mean if you offload image hosting to another company, then this other company need to make money somehow. It just moves the issue elsewhere but doesn't resolve it.
They didn't need to add image or video hosting or chat or whatever else they have.
I mean if you offload image hosting to another company, then this other company need to make money somehow. It just moves the issue elsewhere but doesn't resolve it.
For sure. But before Reddit added image hosting, Imgur seemed to be a fine host. Isn't that why the Imgur person started that site in the first place? But even if there were no image host, I feel...
For sure. But before Reddit added image hosting, Imgur seemed to be a fine host. Isn't that why the Imgur person started that site in the first place? But even if there were no image host, I feel like Reddit would be fine. I'm perfectly happy here without any image hosting (in fact, I prefer it, since it sets the bar for posting higher).
I'm fine with no images here too, but it's because I know I can go elsewhere for my images. If tildes was the only player in the space I would like it to have images. To give you an example...
I'm fine with no images here too, but it's because I know I can go elsewhere for my images. If tildes was the only player in the space I would like it to have images. To give you an example there's some really good insects, birds or plants identification subs on reddit, which cannot work without images.
Yeah, you have a good point: images aren't just for memes and low-effort stuff. But I plan to start making those kinds of posts here. For a plant identification one, I guess I'll start with some...
Yeah, you have a good point: images aren't just for memes and low-effort stuff. But I plan to start making those kinds of posts here. For a plant identification one, I guess I'll start with some information about the plant, then list a few images (linked to Imgur). I don't expect I'll get as good of a response here--and obviously this way I won't be able to casually look at images, getting some quick practice at my own identification of others' plants--but I'm interested to see how it goes.
I think Imgur and YouTube were doing really well, and I know YouTube is making money hand over fist, and Imgur is probably solvent as well. I honestly preferred when everything was hosted there;...
I think Imgur and YouTube were doing really well, and I know YouTube is making money hand over fist, and Imgur is probably solvent as well.
I honestly preferred when everything was hosted there; there were faster loading times, less failures to load, and the overall UX was leaps and bounds better.
I saw a comment over there for investors to take note of how he’s handling this AMA and how he handled the API issues so poorly. This isn’t the work of someone who cares about the product to make...
I saw a comment over there for investors to take note of how he’s handling this AMA and how he handled the API issues so poorly. This isn’t the work of someone who cares about the product to make it continue making profit for the investors. He’s actively running into the ground for a quick payout, not the type of money investors want to see.
Nah. Probably their head of PR or whatever going "either you give me your account credentials and I'll do damage control in your name, or you do it yourself. Your choice."
CEO posts an AMA to stroke his ego- deserves what he gets.
Nah. Probably their head of PR or whatever going "either you give me your account credentials and I'll do damage control in your name, or you do it yourself. Your choice."
I so, so miss being able to participate in a community, which is why I'm enjoying Tildes so much. I've never been a Knight of New, so my general experience on reddit (at least in the big subs) is...
I so, so miss being able to participate in a community, which is why I'm enjoying Tildes so much. I've never been a Knight of New, so my general experience on reddit (at least in the big subs) is getting to a thread too late - "late" like an hour old - to have any interaction noticed. I love how I can pop into an older discussion here and actually contribute.
I've been hitting Reddit sporadically since I joined Tildes this week and only for the subreddits specifically related to my hobby. And honestly, Tildes still has more of what I want, given that...
I've been hitting Reddit sporadically since I joined Tildes this week and only for the subreddits specifically related to my hobby. And honestly, Tildes still has more of what I want, given that I'm here mostly for discussion.
This is far more disastrous than I could have predicted. I expected some level of "we screwed up guys, sorry about that," but to double down on their baseless accusations? Yikes. Also re:3PA, spez...
This is far more disastrous than I could have predicted. I expected some level of "we screwed up guys, sorry about that," but to double down on their baseless accusations? Yikes.
Also re:3PA, spez was saying that it cost reddit tens of millions of dollars to support 3PA. Yet, a single client is then going to be charge 20 million? It obviously has nothing to do with cost, and everything to do with milking all the value they can get before the IPO.
Yeah, losing Reddit really feels like the last of the old Internet is dead forever. We're back to walled gardens, more analytics than are necessary to run lunar missions, and general corporate...
Yeah, losing Reddit really feels like the last of the old Internet is dead forever. We're back to walled gardens, more analytics than are necessary to run lunar missions, and general corporate interests taking priority over users.
I was there when Reddit was created. I was ahead of the curve on the Digg migration, but I also used Fark before that. I'm glad Tildes is here :)
This thread is like impossible to read because all of spez's comments are downvoted to oblivion so you have to dig for any answers. It's easier to just read from his profile at this point....
This thread is like impossible to read because all of spez's comments are downvoted to oblivion so you have to dig for any answers. It's easier to just read from his profile at this point. Shouldn't Q&A mode bring the OP's posts to the top? Is it not working for me?
https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/66q4is/the_web_redesign_css_and_mod_tools/dgkeuqs/ Nah he said the API isn't going anywhere. And steve would never lie, right? Right?
Lawyers and competent PR people would have advised him not to do this. Anyone could have seen how much of a disaster this would be. A train wreck like this could actually end up going a little...
Lawyers and competent PR people would have advised him not to do this. Anyone could have seen how much of a disaster this would be. A train wreck like this could actually end up going a little viral, whereas just not responding to user complaints would have probably limited bad press at least until the IPO, which is all they care about. I'm guessing Steve has a bit of a Caesar complex at this point and thought he would be able to handle this, even if it was a little messy. He was the only person who didn't understand that there was really only one outcome.
The idea that this might have been self-inflicted makes the thrashing he's getting all the more satisfying. But I also question how competent higher up reddit staff in general are. There are...
The idea that this might have been self-inflicted makes the thrashing he's getting all the more satisfying.
But I also question how competent higher up reddit staff in general are. There are incompetent lawyers and incompetent PR people. Their public relations department clearly thought they could pull off this API policy change, with a userbase that was built around tech-savvy people. I'd argue any competent person in Public Relations should have seen this disaster coming a mile away.
The PR department didn't make the API decision. They probably knew the reaction would be terrible, but their job is to spin it the best they can, nothing else. I more feel bad for Reddit Co. PR...
The PR department didn't make the API decision. They probably knew the reaction would be terrible, but their job is to spin it the best they can, nothing else.
I more feel bad for Reddit Co. PR and lawyers. They can advise all they want, but these were likely board and c-suite decisions. Hasn't been a good few weeks for the employees further down the org chart.
Nah, I think they all knew this was going to happen. They're just counting on the outrage to die off and fade from any prospective shareholders' memories by the time of the IPO later this year...
Their public relations department clearly thought they could pull off this API policy change
Nah, I think they all knew this was going to happen. They're just counting on the outrage to die off and fade from any prospective shareholders' memories by the time of the IPO later this year (I'm assuming).
And they did it on such a short timetable to rip off the bandaid, so to speak, to make sure it doesn't sit in any news coverage for too long before the next big news story comes along.
I think abandoning the AMA without informing the users pretty much says it all. We'll see how it pans out, I've seen Reddit angry over big changes before and nothing much came of it but this does...
I think abandoning the AMA without informing the users pretty much says it all.
We'll see how it pans out, I've seen Reddit angry over big changes before and nothing much came of it but this does seem like an extra angry Reddit.
At least there is one good thing about his post. However I am worried if it's going to continue actually being usable too - if RES is going to break somehow, or something else.
P.S. old.reddit.com isn’t going anywhere
At least there is one good thing about his post.
However I am worried if it's going to continue actually being usable too - if RES is going to break somehow, or something else.
He's been constantly caught lying about this type of thing in the past. I don't doubt for a second that old.reddit is on the chopping block. I give it less than a year.
He's been constantly caught lying about this type of thing in the past. I don't doubt for a second that old.reddit is on the chopping block. I give it less than a year.
isn't old.reddit been used by like 5% of the user by now? and a lot of mods still use old.reddit and res to moderate. So they aren't losing much money and and it would infuriate the people that...
isn't old.reddit been used by like 5% of the user by now? and a lot of mods still use old.reddit and res to moderate.
So they aren't losing much money and and it would infuriate the people that actually do a job already for free.
I think they will kill it eventually, but not now that there is already all this discontent and not before they improve mod tools.
I'm a RIF boy on android - could someone explain to me what makes Apollo so great? I saw someone in a thread say they paid $45 dollars for a lifetime subscription to the app? I assume that means...
I'm a RIF boy on android - could someone explain to me what makes Apollo so great? I saw someone in a thread say they paid $45 dollars for a lifetime subscription to the app? I assume that means they had monthly subscription fee for the app.
There are two different forms of paying for Apollo. One of them is a small, $5 (iirc?) donation that gets you some additional features like no ads, themes, and multiple account support. The other...
There are two different forms of paying for Apollo. One of them is a small, $5 (iirc?) donation that gets you some additional features like no ads, themes, and multiple account support. The other is a monthly subscription that lets you continue to support the developer as they add new features, themes, etc. You get those new themes and extra app icons as a subscriber, iirc.
I've personally paid for the one off donation, as I like to see good devs flourish. However, I also love how clean the app is. It's very intuitive, easy to use, and it doesn't look like something a programmer made. I've used a lot of apps for Reddit over the past thirteen years, and Apollo is definitely the best... imo.
From what I have read, the app also has its own backend to improve things such as private messages and probably upload pictures generated of comments, and possibly other features. The backend was...
From what I have read, the app also has its own backend to improve things such as private messages and probably upload pictures generated of comments, and possibly other features. The backend was also just recently put on GitHub because of the contraversy and to counter claim the reddit administration's lies.
It was a well designed app that followed a lot of iOS’ best practices and showcased a lot of the newer APIs. Selig paid a lot of attention to detail and it showed through. It made browsing Reddit,...
It was a well designed app that followed a lot of iOS’ best practices and showcased a lot of the newer APIs. Selig paid a lot of attention to detail and it showed through. It made browsing Reddit, and I hate to use a term like this because it sounds like something Apple would say at WWDC, a delight. So much so that even using a tricked out RES setup on desktop was less fun. I’ve never been a mod but I’ve heard from others who are that it had great mod tools.
So, is there actually a pro-Spez following awarding all of his posts, or is it safe to assume that he / Reddit staff are just applying all the awards themselves?
So, is there actually a pro-Spez following awarding all of his posts, or is it safe to assume that he / Reddit staff are just applying all the awards themselves?
There was a really great reddit terminal app for browsing reddit in your terminal. I don’t think it’s maintained anymore, but it was good enough I’m sure someone forked it. It allowed for very...
As I shared in my post, We want everyone to be able to use Reddit. As a result, non-commercial, accessibility-focused apps and tools will continue to have free access. We’re working with apps like RedReader and Dystopia and a few others to ensure they can continue to access the Data API.
There was a really great reddit terminal app for browsing reddit in your terminal. I don’t think it’s maintained anymore, but it was good enough I’m sure someone forked it. It allowed for very easy navigation of reddit via keyboard only, something that should probably qualify given the above. However, I really doubt stuff like that makes the cut, because it’s “another lost revenue” stream according to their logic.
I'm happy RedReader will get free access at least, it was already my preferred reddit app. https://www.reddit.com/r/RedReader/comments/145du4j/update_4_redreader_granted_noncommercial/
Yeah, but they also said that they think it's only a matter of time before Reddit pulls it, which is honestly sad when you think about it, no? For years they kept asking for assistance, and they...
Yeah, but they also said that they think it's only a matter of time before Reddit pulls it, which is honestly sad when you think about it, no?
For years they kept asking for assistance, and they only finally got it not even because of goodwill, but because reddit might be facing down the barrel of an ADA lawsuit. And even still the maker feels like it's a limited time thing.
We should put a terminal in the reply box. What is !remindme 4 days doing built up as a bot on reddit when it could just be a damn command line option.
We should put a terminal in the reply box. What is !remindme 4 days doing built up as a bot on reddit when it could just be a damn command line option.
Would love to see social media evolve into a more peer-to-peer system. I think its pretty clear from this AMA (and the complete lack of responses to the questions everyone wants answered) that...
Would love to see social media evolve into a more peer-to-peer system. I think its pretty clear from this AMA (and the complete lack of responses to the questions everyone wants answered) that Reddit is simply a bridge troll between users and user generated content. The software is great, but the business on top of it does not serve much purpose.
Hope to see some great alternatives emerge in the coming months.
Relevant article about the AMA on TechCrunch. https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/09/reddit-ceo-doubles-down-on-attack-on-apollo-developer-in-drama-filled-ama/
I wonder why they even bothered with that? Everyone knew what would happen, although I'm a little surprised that u/spez doubled down on the blackmail claim even after the release of the phone call...
I wonder why they even bothered with that? Everyone knew what would happen, although I'm a little surprised that u/spez doubled down on the blackmail claim even after the release of the phone call recordings that disproved his lies the first time.
Ultimately, that was the last straw for me on Reddit. I was considering just deleting the app and having less usage via the desktop, but I have no desire to be part of a community lead by an imbecile like that douche.
That's an interesting idea, not just with Christian in particular, but the idea of AMAs on Tildes in general. A lot of popular reddit content wouldn't be a good fit here, but AMAs might actually...
That's an interesting idea, not just with Christian in particular, but the idea of AMAs on Tildes in general. A lot of popular reddit content wouldn't be a good fit here, but AMAs might actually be really well suited to the format. I can't remember anyone ever trying it in the time that I've been here.
I would 100% pay for an app made by Christian. He knows what he’s doing and accessibility was almost native in Apollo. I didn’t even have to try to make it work for me, Just a few toggles on...
I would 100% pay for an app made by Christian. He knows what he’s doing and accessibility was almost native in Apollo. I didn’t even have to try to make it work for me, Just a few toggles on settings and it was perfect. I downloaded his other app, pixel pals, and while I don’t personally like using them, I’ll still buy the iaps and let him have the funds from it because I believe in him as a developer.
I have tildes saved on my phone now, and I’m mostly a mobile user (gave up my computer for an iPad Pro two years ago to spend more time doing art and less time browsing the internet- of course) so an app is more up to my speed.
I do have to say, coming from ravelry (a knitting-focused social media site) and their forums, Tildes feels very familiar and also simplified in the best way.
What I read from Apollo's announcement he is not interested on moving Apollo to another alternative or building one. But the dev of RiF building something for Tildes is big news, not even other...
What I read from Apollo's announcement he is not interested on moving Apollo to another alternative or building one. But the dev of RiF building something for Tildes is big news, not even other alternatives have something like this.
Love this idea! I would love to hear from other 3rd party app developers too such as RIF, Sync, BaconReader, etc. Though I'm not sure if it would be better to do one thread for all 3rd party app...
Love this idea!
I would love to hear from other 3rd party app developers too such as RIF, Sync, BaconReader, etc. Though I'm not sure if it would be better to do one thread for all 3rd party app developers or individual threads for each.
Ugh. It was what I knew it would be even though I hoped for more. Not even fun because of that. I'm going to finish a couple more commits and get this dang CR up now. After that, I'm taking all...
Ugh. It was what I knew it would be even though I hoped for more. Not even fun because of that.
I'm going to finish a couple more commits and get this dang CR up now. After that, I'm taking all that uneaten popcorn, chocolate, and soda and I'm going to have a good weekend.
Did the Same thing last night. 11 years and change, it'll be weird not surfing Reddit but it's been time for a while. The halcyon days where I felt like the dumbest guy in the room have been gone...
Did the Same thing last night. 11 years and change, it'll be weird not surfing Reddit but it's been time for a while. The halcyon days where I felt like the dumbest guy in the room have been gone for 6-7 years now. It went from legitimately great content and became "summer reddit" permanently. I'll miss it, but more the memory of what it was rather than what it is now.
Not criticizing you for watching the AMA -- I was on reddit at the time, just not monitoring the AMA -- but I almost wonder if this drama is a sorta positive for reddit. An application of "No such...
Not criticizing you for watching the AMA -- I was on reddit at the time, just not monitoring the AMA -- but I almost wonder if this drama is a sorta positive for reddit. An application of "No such thing as bad publicity."
Major tech news outlets are covering this. That's a lot of eyeballs on reddit that might not have been there in the first place. Maybe even new people creating accounts to see what all he hubbub is about. Not that you need an account, but if some new people want to participate, then one does. And who doesn't love a good underdog story?
In addition, from the existing userbase, traffic and engagement has got to be skyrocketing. Plenty of people are looking for the latest on the drama. And they're looking on reddit. I've seen multiple offtopic threads in various subreddits, concerning the API changes, protests, next moves, etc. that are quite active.
Spez being an idiot aside, that AMA was probably pulling tons of traffic. I know I was seeing errors on reddit in the run-up to and during the event. That was probably one of that most-watched AMAs in a while, even if people were downvoting everything he and other admins were saying.
From that perspective, doing the AMA and all this drama probably wasn't a bad idea.
Because let's be real: reddit isn't dying on June 12-14. It's not dying after June 30. It's not dying by the end of the year or into the foreseeable future. The vast majority of redditors aren't deleting their accounts and quitting reddit for good. Even if they're shouting from the roofs that they will. How many mods will really stop moderating their communities that they've been caretaking and curating for possibly years? How many will really go permanently dark?
Use of the official mobile app probably will see an uptick in usage on July 1.
I hate to be that guy, but at the end of the day, reddit (and Tildes etc) are just entertainment websites. And what we're seeing now is just more entertainment.
Some people will take all this seriously. But the degrees will vary. I'm not using the official app after Apollo stops working; I removed the official app, that I barely used in the first place, yesterday. I will quit most of the subs I mod (which is only like 5 at this point), leaving them unmoderated.
But will I stop using reddit altogether? Idk, probably not. Tildes and Lemmy just aren't there yet and, at least in Tildes case, never will be, by choice. Which is fine; I like Tildes for what it is and isn't. Reddit has things that I like. There's a reason I've been on reddit for like 13yrs now.
At some point over the next several weeks, the userbase will quiet down and things will go back to how they were. Yeah, it'll be different, but not enough to really effect deep change. And it is what it is.
95% of my reddit use is/was mobile. Without a third party app, I don't have the means to use it normally. I do look things up though and it's not uncommon to find the answers on reddit. So I can't...
95% of my reddit use is/was mobile. Without a third party app, I don't have the means to use it normally. I do look things up though and it's not uncommon to find the answers on reddit. So I can't say won't ever visit again. It just happens. A few times today actually while I was setting something up and needed info. I simply won't be logged and I can't see ads and such anyway, so at least reddit won't make anything from me when I happen by.
It's honestly hard though. So many communities. A lot of great resources. I curated something positive and enjoyable through the app I used.
I mentioned this all to my partner today. They use reddit haphazardly. Turns out they have the official reddit app on their phone. Curious, I asked to look since seen it. Good grief. It was an intolerable mess. I show her a side-my-side with my phone and it was astounding. There's no way I can use it.
He didn't address the blackmail mischaracterization of the Apollo dev in his post, which I'm honestly most interested in. I wonder if the lawyers will prevent him from answering any questions about it, considering all the mentions of defamation being thrown around. What a disgusting situation.
EDIT: Nevermind!
The Apollo dev replied asking for examples. What a mess.
He didn't but he doubled down in the comments section and was challenged by Christian (the Apollo dev) to provide any proof.
So far he's made
69 comments3660 minutes in and they've all been either duplicitous, outright lies or just purposefully missing the point.He's also very purposefully avoiding all the most upvoted questions/comments.
Only 13 comments as of now. This is my favorite answer so far
"Sorry for ignoring you for the past 3 months until you brought it up in public"
This is exactly why I expressed doubts yesterday about reddit's ability to review 3PAs, work with them, and make exceptions for useful tools. If they hadn't responded to this dev after 3 months, there's no reason to believe they'll respond to anyone else timely.
Honestly, I feel like the questions he is responding to are scripted questions the admin team is asking under other accounts. There was one comment he made where the started with A. Like from a bulleted list. He then went back and edited it.
In this archive link you can see that it was
A:, which you just do to mark your answer (Q&As are generally in Question: Answer: or Interviewer: Name: format). Much more likely than a bulleted list.Doesn't change that everything else about this Q&A was a huge mess...
My guess was it was from a set of Q:/A: pairs in a document set up for a prepared list of topics and answers.
This was my favourite part of the whole AMA
I just found out that Steve Huffman (spez) is on the Board of Advisors for the Anti-Defamation League's Center for Technology and Society. https://www.cnet.com/news/anti-defamation-league-taps-tech-giants-to-fight-hate/ and scroll down to Personal Life at the bottom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Huffman
So.. interesting that he would attempt defamation against someone, huh? I wonder if he's going to use his position to screw the Apollo dev.
Edit: I just sent an email to the ADL staff regarding the issue (you can, too here - https://www.adl.org/contact but be sure to select "Center for Technology and Society" for the topic of inquiry). Here's what I wrote:
Hi, I'm seriously concerned about the behavior of one of your Board of Advisors, Steve Huffman, on Reddit. He has apparently accused a 3rd party app developer of blackmailing and threatening him due to the change in pricing of Reddit's API access. Despite these accusations being proven wrong by the app developer (who recorded his call with Huffman from Canada, which has a one party consent law), Huffman doubled down and didn't rescind his accusation during his AskMeAnything thread on June 9th: https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/addressing_the_community_about_changes_to_our_api/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
Instead, his response to a question about this accusation was:
"His 'joke' is the least of our issues. His behavior and communications with us has been all over the place—saying one thing to us while saying something completely different externally; recording and leaking a private phone call—to the point where I don’t know how we could do business with him." This is false information according to the app developer's post, who said he only "leaked" the information and records to defend himself from the accusation (which, again, he has the legal right to do so).
Huffman continuing his accusations of blackmail and threats in public on Reddit is, in my eyes, defamation. And so this is why his position on your board is deeply troubling to me. I am requesting your team to look into this and ensure that this behavior is corrected and/or reprimanded.
If you would like more information on what has been going on, you can visit this link for the 3rd party app developer's proof/post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/
as well as Huffman's response to a question about it on the AskMeAnything thread on Reddit here: https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/comment/jnk4oz4/?context=3
This is a screenshot from the app developer's proof/post showing a message to him on Mastodon asking him to comment on the accusations: https://christianselig.com/apollo-end/mastodon-message.png
Here are direct links to a transcript of the call between the app developer and Huffman, as well as the audio recording:
Transcript: https://gist.github.com/christianselig/fda7e8bc5a25aec9824f915e6a5c7014
Audio: http://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-31-end.m4a
I think what he's doing to the Apollo dev is shitty, but I don't think it's a good look to compare it to antisemitism in any way.
I'm assuming @oslypsis is focusing on the defamation part of antidefamation and not aware/paying attention to the fact that the ADL pretty much only cares about Jews and Jewishness, not defamation itself.
Oh, no no. I didn't intend to compare anything. I saw that the ADL also stands for black rights and many other things as well. I just think it's a bad look on them to have someone on their team defaming anyone (in any type of way, for any reason) when their team is trying to stop defamation. It at best sends mixed signals, and at worst indicates preferential treatment/corruption in the organization if nothing is done about it.
Though now that I think about it, the whole point as to why people need the ADL in general is because the ones defaming them are the "big guys" and they're the "little guys" in terms of power/influence/etc. Likewise, the Apollo dev is a solo developer, while spez is the CEO of a ginormous company. In that way, one could draw a loose comparison imo.
On this page of their site, they include "online harassment" as one of the things they fight. https://www.adl.org/what-we-do/disrupt-online-hate-harassment
But yes, I do understand that spez didn't target the Apollo dev because of his race, gender, religion, etc.
It's interesting how people here and on Reddit refer to the ADL in regards to the controversy with the Apollo dev. Are ya'll not aware that the ADL is a Jewish organization and almost exclusively exists to fight anti-semitism and not much else?
I think the hope is that they'll find his reputation to be potentially harmful to their reputation, even if it's not related to their cause. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but I'm sure other companies have dropped people who got caught up in unrelated scandals so that the public wouldn't judge them by association.
That said, not sure the ADL would find the reddit drama to be scandalous enough to cut ties.
I’ve worked with the ADL in a past job. They actually do care if someone is making them look bad because it hurts their mission and cause. Jewish people already have an uphill battle with people thinking we’re money and power hungry so it stands to reason they may scrutinize this a bit more.
I definitely get that, I just don't know if they would consider the current reddit drama to be significant enough to worry about it impacting their image. At the moment, the discontent seems pretty contained to reddit and is mainly being reported on in tech and financial circles, so it may not ping on their radars as particularly noteworthy. They might write it off as the usual sort of internet discontent and complaints.
I hope they don’t, for the sake of the rest of the internet. But you’re probably right. It would be nice to actually get some traction and see Reddit get it’s just desserts, but who knows.
Not exactly true. It’s there to fight antisemitism and also works to fight other forms of bigotry. Originally it was just antisemitism, and became the premier org in the USA to fight anti-Jewish bigotry.
tbf as a goy I'd never heard of them until this comment thread.
I don't see how any of Steve's actions justify taking such an extreme action of poisoning his political outreach in areas outside of reddit. I understand that people are upset about losing third-party apps (I am too), but it's no excuse to burn down the man's life.
I didn't specifically ask for them to remove him or fire him. Just that they address it and correct/reprimand him. Also, if they decide he is not fit for their team, that's his own actions causing the poisoning. I'm not trying to burn down his life, even though he tried to do that to a small developer...
Pointing out someone's bad behaviour is absolutely not burning down the man's life. His bad behaviour on its own may be, but that's not on the person who pointed it out.
it's really demoralizing to see that Huffman's on this board, considering his public behavior.
Wow, this really is like watching a car crash in slowmo. Someone should explain to him Elon isn't a role model in how to run a social media site.
I agree that reddit isn't going to immediately collapse. Once the subreddit shutdown has finished (forcefully or otherwise), most users will continuing using the official app and New Reddit like nothing happened.
But something will have happened. Any goodwill left with reddit's best users, the ones who pay attention and care about preserving their community's health, will be completely spent. Some of them will immediately leave, causing some measure of brain drain, but many will probably stay...on active lookout for a replacement.
And I think that's the key. There's no obvious replacement right now, so there will be no change. But when that replacement finally comes (and it will), the best of reddit's community, starving to jump ship, will leave in droves. I don't know how big that jump will be compared to their total users, but it will have a noticeable impact on the community. The site will degrade, content and comments will get even worse, and reddit's reputation will eventually change. Then more users will leave, and the cycle will eventually kill the site as we know it.
You're right that reddit will survive this month, but the foundation of its collapse has already been laid.
I hope you're right, but the problem here is that overcoming the network effect is hard. People have hated facebook since forever, and it took a long time for that place to collapse, even after it had become clearly horrible. Making a superior facebook alternative is trivial, but FB is where everyone was, so that is where everyone stayed. If people wanted a reddit-like experience with 20 other users, they can - right now - join one of the lemmy instances that are being promoted as a replacement. But that is not what people want. So if people are going to migrate, it mostly has to happen en masse. The arrival on the scene of a viable replacement isn't enough. There has to be coordination amongst users to change, which seemingly only happens when there is a catalyst event. And, to make this problem even more challenging, there seems to be little motivation to create a suitable replacement, since the odds of people picking the new option over reddit is quite low, so when catalysts do come along, there are no replacements available. Facebook has basically never been replaced, it has just slowly lost steam as people shift to other kinds of social media altogether (tiktok, etc).
Nobody wants another Facebook. That era of social media is done. People don't move on to another Facebook, they stop using Facebooks altogether.
People are desperate for another reddit. Link aggregation has enormous legs. But I agree - to be another reddit, you have to have a ton of users, and a ton of content. So for something to take off, it has to be more than its content - there has to be something exciting to draw users in. And that doesn't exist yet.
But I think it'll be as simple as that: Low effort, low user reddit clones won't do it, but exciting new link aggregation concept will. The community will know when they see it.
The FB era may be dead now, but there was a long time period during which a lot of people did want a facebook replacement. My impression is that people hated and kept using facebook far more than people hate reddit. The fact that the replacement never happened is a warning that the reddit replacement may never happen.
I guess we'll see.
The network effect for Reddit is subtly different though. I don't have any particular love for specific Redditors, outside of /u/Poem_for_your_sprog and other such commenters. I stayed on Facebook as long as I did because my friends and family were there and easy to contact that way. I don't have the same investment in other Redditors, though I've used the site for longer than I used Facebook.
That's just the thing, it hasn't. Even though it feels like that to you, Facebook is huge.
As you say, the network effect is hard to overcome.
since it started to become clear what reddit was doing with the API changes, i've been thinking pretty much incessantly about this article about what it takes to drive a userbase away, and why they don't come back.
Thermocline...such a great analogy.
One thing I haven't been able to understand is how something like spez can go from someone who loves what reddit is, to fighting what reddit is. There must be a corruption thermocline. Where you just wake up one day as the villain to people you once cared for. But would you ever let yourself see that in the mirror?
Re: but he used to love reddit, why?
Reddit is many things to many people, and people grow old and change.
Steve Huffman and Alexis Ohanian (and Aaron Swartz (+) joined) launched Reddit in 2005, mentored by Paul Graham's Y Combinator (YC) startup accelerator. The mentality is that young smart people should make startups instead of working for someone else, that wealth can be generated instead of merely earned in a zero sum way. PG himself made something and sold it and became financially independent this way, and most if not all of the first class of yc believed in this relatively new way of entrepreneual dream.
"Huffman and Ohanian sold Reddit to Condé Nast Publications, owner of Wired, on October 31, 2006, for a reported $10 million to $20 million" Wikipedia
That doesn't sound like a lot compared to the hundreds of millions per thing pricetag we've come to see today, but compared to the rest of the 2005-6 class did: (wiki), they did pretty well for themselves. Airbnb and dropbox came a few years later. In fact, Huffman and Ohanian's first idea before reddit was basically Doordash (YC 2013) using SMS.
I don't particularly remember instances of Huffman seeing Redditors as "people you once cared for". He officially left Reddit in 2009 afterall.
But here's what he did say about Reddit in 2014:
From "Atrocious, mobile sucks': Reddit co-founder Steve Huffman on what site has become"
Here's addition commentary from the article
My reddit account is old. Someone told me they looked it up and it was among the first thousand, when the founders were making ghost alts for traffic. The thing is, this is where I, [edit] an ex-content creator for Reddit, differ from Huffman: I always believed in Reddit and I always loved it as a community. When he sold it, he thought Reddit was dead. Other users like me remember 2006 Reddit much more fondly than that.
Huffman has never loved Reddit or its users. we were always a product to him. He thought it was dead in 2006 and he almost certainly thinks it's dying now. The only thing he wants now is to be richer than he was at 22.
Excellent point. It has to be the money, or the power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, etc etc. But to see the users not as people here on this same wonderful journey with him and instead as enemies collaborating against him? And his weird fixation on Selig? It's all very strange.
I think it's just about motivation. When he made reddit, he wanted what we wanted. Cut to 18 years and 1.3 billion dollars in funding later, and he's been slowly frog boiled to want something else. The pressure must be enormous, and he's been squeezed into another world. A different person - our villain, but someone else's general.
The world he lives in is so completely like the one he lived in eighteen years ago, not least because he's twice the age he was when this project started, but every other facet of how he can define himself must have changed along with. (Frog-boiled is a great term.)
100% off-topic response (and feel free to label it as such) but I couldn't let "the foundation of its collapse has already been laid" pass by unremarked upon. That's probably the most outrageous example of a mixed metaphor I've ever seen!
And feel free to label my "lol" as noise :D
My hope is that the content creators will leave. A majority of users just browse, a small amount comment, and an even smaller amount post. People who post regularly are more likely to be privy to this current drama than the majority that just browse. So if the people who actually make posts start leaving, then there's less content for the majority to stick around for.
Honestly at this point the repost bots will probably keep that crowd satisfied forever.
Well, considering the third party apps are soon to evaporate, I think that maybe this time... yes, a good chunk of users will quit, or at least trade up websites/apps for something else. All that will be left is another wretched hive of scum and villainy... and an IPO that, god willing, bankrupts everyone that touches it.
Are there overall stats for these available somewhere? Would be interesting to see the ratios.
I think it's less that they're overall super popular and more that they're disproportionately used by moderators and power users. I would bet 3rd party app usage is directly correlated with account age. Reddit is 18 years old, with a large group of users having joined during the Dig fiasco 13 years ago. The official app is only 7 years old, so anyone who joined before that likely used a 3rd party app at some point.
I also think a lot of mods are at somewhat of a tipping point. They provide a tremendous amount of free labor to reddit and in return reddit treats them like shit.
While it's true that most high-profile users didn't leave Twitter when Musk took over, I (a normal pleb with less than 100 followers) did and I know at least one coworker who did too (honestly Twitter was already a toxic influence so it was actually a hugely positive step for me). I don't think the group of people doing this is anything close to the majority or anything, but I do think people who don't have big followings leaving isn't likely to be very overtly visible to users but has already impacted the site culture and its ad revenue.
I didn’t have a large following at all, only around 1000 followers. I also left and took my ball with me. I just have my “art brand” on twitter still but rarely post just in case something good happens and it becomes viable to use again. My art brand also has like 5 followers. So there’s that.
yeah I kept my account on twitter so no one would steal my username but set it to private and deleted the app from my phone (or at least my home screen). That ended up doing it for me, and honestly my mental health is a lot better without Twitter doomscrolling.
Absolutely! My mental health is more important and I have a lot of other issues going on that take up more space than twitter, Reddit is honestly the same. The only reason I got onto mastodon was so I could get news updates, and since I live in California, earthquake updates because USGS info is fun! Oh and the Disneyland live updates on rides being down is hilarious. Otherwise I can enjoy more reading and participating in more simple fora here. I just wish I could find a place where geocachers actually congregate outside of Facebook because I want to join in, but I refuse to go back.
There isn't a viable alternative for people to flee to. Ultimately, the existence of reddit during the digg v4 debacle is what led to its demise. They also double downed when users were complaining about the redesign instead of listening.
Sadly that just doesn't exist now. Because of that I think the vast majority of users will stick around and this will all blow over in a few weeks.
Same is true for Twitter. If bluesky social was ready to open up signups soon, i think twitter would have lost a large percentage of its userbase. And that would have slowly killed it. Timing has to be just right and
I know that I need to stick around until the SCOTUS rules on the loan forgiveness as Reddit is the best place to get clear, concise information about it, and I might stick around to get financial help with some things I'm going through, but otherwise I will be leaving. I needed to get off the platform since it caused me to spiral down into a horribly deep depression/anxiety period in my life, crippling me totally. Reducing my use of the site actually significantly improved my perception of reality.
But like a car full of clowns doing party tricks, because this is hilarious to watch. Also a little heart breaking. And very distracting, I'm not getting any work done this afternoon at all.
With the indictment and reddit drama (two equally important things, obviously), it's been a busy couple days of my mouth being wide open.
We might as well have a new "Rampart" AMA.
He did, he just double downed on it.
https://reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/_/jnk45rr/?context=1
It’s hard to believe they think so little of redditors that they believe we will believe the lies they’re telling. How can they hope to do an IPO with spez in charge? He’s a walking liability.
How do they do an IPO when they said themselves that reddit isn't profitable. I don't know why anyone would invest in that dumpster fire of a site. And they could have been profitable if they actually spent
their money wisely over the years.
This is literal textbook libel from the proof Christian has provided. Yikes.
Of course moderation tools are an afterthought in this process. Those features should have been tested and released ages ago rather than leaving people scrambling like this.
ETA: I have a hard time believing this quote from the post:
mod tools are an afterthought because they were never an actual "thought". reddit never really cared about mod tools until the community did their thing and improved them.
an example: AutoModerator was a 3rd party tool until reddit made into an internal tool
He's the creator of Tildes, and I got to mod with him many years ago! Nothing but respect for Deimos.
Automod is the reason that I believe the 3%, but also the reason that I think that the 3% is a really misleading statistic. "Lies, damn lies, and statistics"
For example, last time I was really into moderating a relatively large subreddit, Automoderator performed about 80% of the mod actions, because we had a fairly elaborate Automod setup. Those would all be considered non-third-party moderator actions. On top of that, we had some bot moderators that did about 10% of actions. So 10% of mod actions were done by humans.
So if 3% of mod actions are done by third party apps, and 10% of mod actions are done by humans, then about 30% of human mod actions are done on third party apps, and that feels about right to me.
That makes this website into Automoderator 2.0 by default. We won't need so much regex this time. :P
Regexes are one of my favorite things, you'll have to pry them from my cold, dead hands.
But seriously, I actually built the basis for something along the lines of "AutoModerator 2.0" into Tildes, but it's not being used for anything yet: support for processing posts using Lua scripts.
There's a really simple example in the commit message:
I'll be happy to replace twenty pages of regex with one page of regex and a couple of efficient scripts. :D
I have no trouble believing that a lot of "mod actions" are technically fully automated, drowning out the third party apps.
For example, I wouldn't doubt for a second if it was something like 95% fully automated, 3% third-party apps, 1% new-reddit and official app, 1% old reddit.
This is brutal, but entertaining, to read.
I'm absolutely flabbergasted that he's doubled down on attacking the Apollo dev by saying that he leaked a private conversation which the dev only felt like he needed to do after the CEO of a huge social media company claimed he tried to blackmail them, spez is just an absolute snake, unbelievable.
I’m kind of surprised that he even responded to something about that situation. I’m sure his PR/lawyer team told him not to but his ego got the best of him.
Same! I was convinced when they announced the AMA that it was going to be a false retreat, where they "apologized for the misunderstanding" and delayed the changes by a few months or something to try to get the heat to calm down. The fact that they just fully showed up and reiterated their bs was a stunning misstep to me.
I fully acknowledge following this thread when I've been disconnected from "Reddit drama" for a while is basically the digital equivalent to junk food, but as they say "grab the popcorn". Reddit's actions over the past week have seemed so greedy that its almost comical, and I am curious to what extent spez is even going to attempt to defend them. I think I saw another user here mention it, but his replies already have the potential to be the most downvoted ever on Reddit. Talk about getting on stage in front of a hostile audience.
Nothing wrong with a little popcorn now and then. Popcorn tastes good.
I still don't understand why they fired Victoria back then. She had turned Reddit AMA's into global events and was probably worth her weight in gold to Reddit in terms of eyeballs, influence, prestige, etc. I can't think of a single memorable AMA since she was fired.
It was maddening then and baffling now. Reddit has succeeded as much as it has in spite of itself.
It looks like this exact slice of reddit history has just repeated itself.
I specifically searched to see if he'd reply to any questions about accessibility for blind and visually impaired users, since that's one of the most egregious side effects of this whole ordeal.
Well, he did. And he pasted a pre-prepared response where he originally forgot to remove the "A:" from his answer. His post has since been edited to remove the A, but people are tearing him apart over it.
I for one know it makes sense to have some answers prepared in advance for predicted questions, I don't fault him for that. But given the fact this change will actively discriminate against a decent portion of reddit... Well, his prepared response isn't very satisfying. Particularly for the specific question he replied to, which has a detailed list of questions that really merit a more serious and detailed answer.
Edit in case the archive link doesn't work: Here's the original question on reddit, and then here's his response. Linking them separately since I use the mobile site where the second link doesn't show the parent comment, and his answer is (naturally) towards the bottom of the first link. And here's a screenshot of his response pre-edit someone snagged and posted to imgur.
i'm getting an error trying to view the archive, do you have another way of viewing it?
Here's the original question on reddit, and then here's his response. Linking them separately since I use the mobile site where the second link doesn't show the parent comment, and his answer is (naturally) towards the bottom of the first link. And here's a screenshot of his response pre-edit someone snagged and posted to imgur.
Could "A:" not just stand for "Answer:"?
It definitely does. What has people so worked up is that the initial inclusion of "A:" indicates it was most likely copied from a document of pre-prepared questions and responses. Like "Q: What are the plans for pushshift? A: [insert canned response here]". Again, I don't fault them for preparing some answers like that in advance, saves time since you can predict a couple of the questions likely to come up and you can make sure the wordage won't be likely to cause trouble. Feels like basic PR strategy.
My particular issue is that particular response is so generic, and doesn't actually address the actual questions of the original poster. They aren't just loaded questions to rag on reddit's decisions, they're seriously thought-out about details like how reddit will determine accessibility apps, the process for apps to declare themselves exempt from API pricing, whether reddit guarantees they'll be exempt indefinitely, etc. They're the kind of questions that merit being properly addressed with a full reply.
It feels like he looked for the most popular comment asking about accessibility for blind and visually impaired users so he could post that pre-prepared response, regardless of the comment's content itself. That makes me wonder if he planned to fully respond to any question.
Yes, but why would he deliberately type that and then delete it, especially when his other replies didn't start with it? It certainly gives the impression that he copy/pasted from a canned list of answers, and that's not a great look in this situation, to put it mildly.
The questions are pretty bad. Most of them are loaded and in bad faith at best, and many are just insults with a question mark at the end. It’s not that I necessarily feel bad for spez, he knew what he was getting into and how Reddit mobs operate, but it’s still disgusting to see.
At this point he's earned it. I'm not even mad at loaded questions at this point. The majority of the questions I read were legitimate though, and anything that remotely had legitimate criticism went unanswered.
CEO posts an AMA to stroke his ego- deserves what he gets. Posting an AMA as an exercise in avoiding all tough questions is just amazing. Unfit to be the CEO of anything. What a way to make a joke of what AMAs are supposed to be.
I personally feel like people that posted questions that are strongly, emotionally worded criticism are valid to do so- watching a CEO slowly ruin a site you've put a lot of time into and get a lot out of, is a tough pill to swallow. I'm also biased because I'll freely admit I posted a comment there that's very snarky. But it's how I feel.
It's cathartic to see the outpouring of frustration after the shitshow this has become. I don't expect reddit to do the right thing at any point in the future, and there's little chance of learning anything meaningful from spez, so simply seeing our feedback expressed so clearly and in such volume feels great.
i quite like a reply to this "profitable" comment:
Here's the thing though. The only way they become profitable is though the user engagement. That can be used to train ai. However they could literally just tell the ai to browse reddit via the web page. Thus circumventing the api call and they still lose that money.
The other outcome of this mess is the huge loss of users and their content. Once those leave then so does the profitability of the site.
As for increasing the ipo that will back fire as they will be loosing far more userser then they will gain. Making them a loosing bet.
If another reddit clone reached out to the devs of the 3rd party apps they could jump their user base overnight with this huge outrage.
Since this is reddit we are talking about it'll either be a nothing burger or the whole thing will be burned to the ground. So I guess this is your hill to die one reddit admin.
I'm a moderator on /r/redditisfun and, believe me, they are reaching out. And users have been requesting RiF pivot to everything from Usenet to Lemmy to a reddit web scraper to coming together and building their own reddit competitor. (Some of these people are desperate, man.)
The thing is, though, is that most 3rd party app devs don't have interest in just building an app for some new random website. They all chose reddit because they were redditors and saw a niche in third-party apps that they wanted to try and fill.
It was an alignment of passion and interests; without the passion, it would just be work.
It makes some sense to be honest, they need to pay the bills somehow. The issue is that people are used to have things for free, so it's hard to make them pay and they have to resort to bulshittery.
I'm afraid in the current state of neo-liberal capitalism : investor money is used to give people free candies, and once it runs out things turn sour and then we go for another round with another company.
I completely disagree. Of course there are always going to be people who want things to remain free forever, but I've seen a lot of support for the idea of reddit charging money for API requests. It's totally reasonable for them to, and it's surprising they haven't tried this before. But Spez specifically emphasized to the 3PA devs when they made the initial announcement that the pricing would be reasonable. Then reddit announced the pricing with only a few weeks until the changes go into effect and the pricing was NOT reasonable. And when Spez was called out on it, he doubled-down and lied about it. And that was BEFORE this AMA where he's doing the exact same thing all over again.
If the pricing were reasonable, the 3PA devs could work the added expense into their own prices. But the prices aren't reasonable, so they can't pass those expenses on and keep things priced sanely. Not to mention the issue of for-life subscriptions that would actually cost the devs money to continue to support.
I agree completely, though I admit I know very little about the economics of this. But looking at what Deimos has said about the costs of running this server, my impression is that Reddit added so much unnecessary junk to the platform, and that's what has made it so expensive to run. They didn't need to add image or video hosting or chat or whatever else they have. Frankly, when I see a reddit-hosted image, I don't want to click it, because I know it's going to load as slowly as an image from the 56k days (though to be honest, I only ever had 28.8k speed back then).
And if they weren't a for-profit company, people would be more willing to donate to them. The few times I've gotten Reddit Gold, I've been more annoyed that someone wasted their money than pleased that someone was grateful for what I posted. This wouldn't be the case with "Tildes Gold," if there were such a thing. I like the people here and I like the platform. I can't remember ever liking the Reddit platform (though I've only been there for 10 years).
/u/Deimos Here's my request to implement a tildes gold, that would make a donation to a nonprofit of the receiver's choice (ideally configurable in your user profile, maybe as a list if the giver is opposed to your first choice charity)
I mean if you offload image hosting to another company, then this other company need to make money somehow. It just moves the issue elsewhere but doesn't resolve it.
For sure. But before Reddit added image hosting, Imgur seemed to be a fine host. Isn't that why the Imgur person started that site in the first place? But even if there were no image host, I feel like Reddit would be fine. I'm perfectly happy here without any image hosting (in fact, I prefer it, since it sets the bar for posting higher).
I'm fine with no images here too, but it's because I know I can go elsewhere for my images. If tildes was the only player in the space I would like it to have images. To give you an example there's some really good insects, birds or plants identification subs on reddit, which cannot work without images.
Yeah, you have a good point: images aren't just for memes and low-effort stuff. But I plan to start making those kinds of posts here. For a plant identification one, I guess I'll start with some information about the plant, then list a few images (linked to Imgur). I don't expect I'll get as good of a response here--and obviously this way I won't be able to casually look at images, getting some quick practice at my own identification of others' plants--but I'm interested to see how it goes.
I think Imgur and YouTube were doing really well, and I know YouTube is making money hand over fist, and Imgur is probably solvent as well.
I honestly preferred when everything was hosted there; there were faster loading times, less failures to load, and the overall UX was leaps and bounds better.
I saw a comment over there for investors to take note of how he’s handling this AMA and how he handled the API issues so poorly. This isn’t the work of someone who cares about the product to make it continue making profit for the investors. He’s actively running into the ground for a quick payout, not the type of money investors want to see.
Nah. Probably their head of PR or whatever going "either you give me your account credentials and I'll do damage control in your name, or you do it yourself. Your choice."
Not to make a meme quote here, but “he chose… poorly” is pretty apt. It’s pretty clear it was Spez behind the keyboard.
I so, so miss being able to participate in a community, which is why I'm enjoying Tildes so much. I've never been a Knight of New, so my general experience on reddit (at least in the big subs) is getting to a thread too late - "late" like an hour old - to have any interaction noticed. I love how I can pop into an older discussion here and actually contribute.
I've been hitting Reddit sporadically since I joined Tildes this week and only for the subreddits specifically related to my hobby. And honestly, Tildes still has more of what I want, given that I'm here mostly for discussion.
This is far more disastrous than I could have predicted. I expected some level of "we screwed up guys, sorry about that," but to double down on their baseless accusations? Yikes.
Also re:3PA, spez was saying that it cost reddit tens of millions of dollars to support 3PA. Yet, a single client is then going to be charge 20 million? It obviously has nothing to do with cost, and everything to do with milking all the value they can get before the IPO.
Yeah, losing Reddit really feels like the last of the old Internet is dead forever. We're back to walled gardens, more analytics than are necessary to run lunar missions, and general corporate interests taking priority over users.
I was there when Reddit was created. I was ahead of the curve on the Digg migration, but I also used Fark before that. I'm glad Tildes is here :)
This thread is like impossible to read because all of spez's comments are downvoted to oblivion so you have to dig for any answers. It's easier to just read from his profile at this point. Shouldn't Q&A mode bring the OP's posts to the top? Is it not working for me?
He only answered 7 question and they pretty much said nothing, very corporate speech.
He's up to 13 now! That's a 1:1000 response rate, possibly a new record for him.
I'm just using his account page to find them.
That would require it to work and well... reddit does have a track record of non-functionality for a reason.
https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/66q4is/the_web_redesign_css_and_mod_tools/dgkeuqs/
Nah he said the API isn't going anywhere.
And steve would never lie, right?
Right?
His insistence on framing himself and reddit as innocent and the 3PA devs as the villains is really something.
How did the admins think that this would go? I'm assuming each of his answers are being checked by PR and lawyers.
Lawyers and competent PR people would have advised him not to do this. Anyone could have seen how much of a disaster this would be. A train wreck like this could actually end up going a little viral, whereas just not responding to user complaints would have probably limited bad press at least until the IPO, which is all they care about. I'm guessing Steve has a bit of a Caesar complex at this point and thought he would be able to handle this, even if it was a little messy. He was the only person who didn't understand that there was really only one outcome.
The idea that this might have been self-inflicted makes the thrashing he's getting all the more satisfying.
But I also question how competent higher up reddit staff in general are. There are incompetent lawyers and incompetent PR people. Their public relations department clearly thought they could pull off this API policy change, with a userbase that was built around tech-savvy people. I'd argue any competent person in Public Relations should have seen this disaster coming a mile away.
The PR department didn't make the API decision. They probably knew the reaction would be terrible, but their job is to spin it the best they can, nothing else.
I more feel bad for Reddit Co. PR and lawyers. They can advise all they want, but these were likely board and c-suite decisions. Hasn't been a good few weeks for the employees further down the org chart.
Nah, I think they all knew this was going to happen. They're just counting on the outrage to die off and fade from any prospective shareholders' memories by the time of the IPO later this year (I'm assuming).
And they did it on such a short timetable to rip off the bandaid, so to speak, to make sure it doesn't sit in any news coverage for too long before the next big news story comes along.
I think abandoning the AMA without informing the users pretty much says it all.
We'll see how it pans out, I've seen Reddit angry over big changes before and nothing much came of it but this does seem like an extra angry Reddit.
It was all pre written responses anyways outside of the outburst towards Christian.
At least there is one good thing about his post.
However I am worried if it's going to continue actually being usable too - if RES is going to break somehow, or something else.
do not trust spez
To be fair - 6 years in the tech world is an eternity.
With how the api has been handled and with past experiences, I don't trust /u/spez when he says old.reddit.com isn't going away.
He's been constantly caught lying about this type of thing in the past. I don't doubt for a second that old.reddit is on the chopping block. I give it less than a year.
isn't old.reddit been used by like 5% of the user by now? and a lot of mods still use old.reddit and res to moderate.
So they aren't losing much money and and it would infuriate the people that actually do a job already for free.
I think they will kill it eventually, but not now that there is already all this discontent and not before they improve mod tools.
His assurances are completely meaningless. We should assume old reddit will go away at some point.
it would have been more productive as a thread in /r/AmItheAsshole
I'm a RIF boy on android - could someone explain to me what makes Apollo so great? I saw someone in a thread say they paid $45 dollars for a lifetime subscription to the app? I assume that means they had monthly subscription fee for the app.
There are two different forms of paying for Apollo. One of them is a small, $5 (iirc?) donation that gets you some additional features like no ads, themes, and multiple account support. The other is a monthly subscription that lets you continue to support the developer as they add new features, themes, etc. You get those new themes and extra app icons as a subscriber, iirc.
I've personally paid for the one off donation, as I like to see good devs flourish. However, I also love how clean the app is. It's very intuitive, easy to use, and it doesn't look like something a programmer made. I've used a lot of apps for Reddit over the past thirteen years, and Apollo is definitely the best... imo.
apollo basically looks apple-native and i think that’s a huge draw for a lot of people
From what I have read, the app also has its own backend to improve things such as private messages and probably upload pictures generated of comments, and possibly other features. The backend was also just recently put on GitHub because of the contraversy and to counter claim the reddit administration's lies.
It was a well designed app that followed a lot of iOS’ best practices and showcased a lot of the newer APIs. Selig paid a lot of attention to detail and it showed through. It made browsing Reddit, and I hate to use a term like this because it sounds like something Apple would say at WWDC, a delight. So much so that even using a tricked out RES setup on desktop was less fun. I’ve never been a mod but I’ve heard from others who are that it had great mod tools.
So, is there actually a pro-Spez following awarding all of his posts, or is it safe to assume that he / Reddit staff are just applying all the awards themselves?
It's part of the uniform. He's actually required to wear 15 pieces of flair.
I assumed they were awards that actually expressed disapproval. I once got a "clown" steam award for that purpose on a review I wrote.
I thought it was people ensuring his shit responses are seen.
There was a really great reddit terminal app for browsing reddit in your terminal. I don’t think it’s maintained anymore, but it was good enough I’m sure someone forked it. It allowed for very easy navigation of reddit via keyboard only, something that should probably qualify given the above. However, I really doubt stuff like that makes the cut, because it’s “another lost revenue” stream according to their logic.
I'm happy RedReader will get free access at least, it was already my preferred reddit app.
https://www.reddit.com/r/RedReader/comments/145du4j/update_4_redreader_granted_noncommercial/
Yeah, but they also said that they think it's only a matter of time before Reddit pulls it, which is honestly sad when you think about it, no?
For years they kept asking for assistance, and they only finally got it not even because of goodwill, but because reddit might be facing down the barrel of an ADA lawsuit. And even still the maker feels like it's a limited time thing.
That's great! It was the app I switched to before I deleted Reddit from my phone in all forms for being distracting.
We should put a terminal in the reply box. What is
!remindme 4 daysdoing built up as a bot on reddit when it could just be a damn command line option.u/spez: “Ask me anything! … Doesn’t mean I’ll actually answer it”
Would love to see social media evolve into a more peer-to-peer system. I think its pretty clear from this AMA (and the complete lack of responses to the questions everyone wants answered) that Reddit is simply a bridge troll between users and user generated content. The software is great, but the business on top of it does not serve much purpose.
Hope to see some great alternatives emerge in the coming months.
Relevant article about the AMA on TechCrunch.
https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/09/reddit-ceo-doubles-down-on-attack-on-apollo-developer-in-drama-filled-ama/
A very unproductive AMA with little-to-no new information provided. Waste of time for everyone involved.
I wonder why they even bothered with that? Everyone knew what would happen, although I'm a little surprised that u/spez doubled down on the blackmail claim even after the release of the phone call recordings that disproved his lies the first time.
Ultimately, that was the last straw for me on Reddit. I was considering just deleting the app and having less usage via the desktop, but I have no desire to be part of a community lead by an imbecile like that douche.
The post currently has 0 votes. I can't imagine that's a truthful representation of reality when every one of his comments has at least 600 downvotes.
Reddit posts never go under 0 downvotes for some reason, comments do though
The one about the Apollo dev has -1764 at present counting. lul
Would be great having an AMA with Apollo developer in Tildes.
That's an interesting idea, not just with Christian in particular, but the idea of AMAs on Tildes in general. A lot of popular reddit content wouldn't be a good fit here, but AMAs might actually be really well suited to the format. I can't remember anyone ever trying it in the time that I've been here.
Source: tildes.net/?tag=ama
5 years later, and I'm still a bookkeeper/small business consultant, and California is still on fire. Nice to have some consistency in life, eh?
Hey, at least the east coast joined y’all in being smoke filled 5 years later, we’re doing our part!
Ah. Yes. I could've just searched, haha. Thanks!
I wonder if he would make an Apollo-style Tildes app.
I think the developer of RIF is doing this.
I would 100% pay for an app made by Christian. He knows what he’s doing and accessibility was almost native in Apollo. I didn’t even have to try to make it work for me, Just a few toggles on settings and it was perfect. I downloaded his other app, pixel pals, and while I don’t personally like using them, I’ll still buy the iaps and let him have the funds from it because I believe in him as a developer.
I have tildes saved on my phone now, and I’m mostly a mobile user (gave up my computer for an iPad Pro two years ago to spend more time doing art and less time browsing the internet- of course) so an app is more up to my speed.
I do have to say, coming from ravelry (a knitting-focused social media site) and their forums, Tildes feels very familiar and also simplified in the best way.
What I read from Apollo's announcement he is not interested on moving Apollo to another alternative or building one. But the dev of RiF building something for Tildes is big news, not even other alternatives have something like this.
Love this idea!
I would love to hear from other 3rd party app developers too such as RIF, Sync, BaconReader, etc. Though I'm not sure if it would be better to do one thread for all 3rd party app developers or individual threads for each.
"Addressing the community about changes to our API "
Narrator: He did not
I wasn't going to log back on to Reddit, but... this is going to be much too interesting.
🍿🍫🥤
Ugh. It was what I knew it would be even though I hoped for more. Not even fun because of that.
I'm going to finish a couple more commits and get this dang CR up now. After that, I'm taking all that uneaten popcorn, chocolate, and soda and I'm going to have a good weekend.
Eff the mess you made Reddit, I'm out.
Heh, I've deleted my 10 year old account today (after removing it's contents), can't be bothered to create a new one.
Did the Same thing last night. 11 years and change, it'll be weird not surfing Reddit but it's been time for a while. The halcyon days where I felt like the dumbest guy in the room have been gone for 6-7 years now. It went from legitimately great content and became "summer reddit" permanently. I'll miss it, but more the memory of what it was rather than what it is now.
Not criticizing you for watching the AMA -- I was on reddit at the time, just not monitoring the AMA -- but I almost wonder if this drama is a sorta positive for reddit. An application of "No such thing as bad publicity."
Major tech news outlets are covering this. That's a lot of eyeballs on reddit that might not have been there in the first place. Maybe even new people creating accounts to see what all he hubbub is about. Not that you need an account, but if some new people want to participate, then one does. And who doesn't love a good underdog story?
In addition, from the existing userbase, traffic and engagement has got to be skyrocketing. Plenty of people are looking for the latest on the drama. And they're looking on reddit. I've seen multiple offtopic threads in various subreddits, concerning the API changes, protests, next moves, etc. that are quite active.
Spez being an idiot aside, that AMA was probably pulling tons of traffic. I know I was seeing errors on reddit in the run-up to and during the event. That was probably one of that most-watched AMAs in a while, even if people were downvoting everything he and other admins were saying.
From that perspective, doing the AMA and all this drama probably wasn't a bad idea.
Because let's be real: reddit isn't dying on June 12-14. It's not dying after June 30. It's not dying by the end of the year or into the foreseeable future. The vast majority of redditors aren't deleting their accounts and quitting reddit for good. Even if they're shouting from the roofs that they will. How many mods will really stop moderating their communities that they've been caretaking and curating for possibly years? How many will really go permanently dark?
Use of the official mobile app probably will see an uptick in usage on July 1.
I hate to be that guy, but at the end of the day, reddit (and Tildes etc) are just entertainment websites. And what we're seeing now is just more entertainment.
Some people will take all this seriously. But the degrees will vary. I'm not using the official app after Apollo stops working; I removed the official app, that I barely used in the first place, yesterday. I will quit most of the subs I mod (which is only like 5 at this point), leaving them unmoderated.
But will I stop using reddit altogether? Idk, probably not. Tildes and Lemmy just aren't there yet and, at least in Tildes case, never will be, by choice. Which is fine; I like Tildes for what it is and isn't. Reddit has things that I like. There's a reason I've been on reddit for like 13yrs now.
At some point over the next several weeks, the userbase will quiet down and things will go back to how they were. Yeah, it'll be different, but not enough to really effect deep change. And it is what it is.
95% of my reddit use is/was mobile. Without a third party app, I don't have the means to use it normally. I do look things up though and it's not uncommon to find the answers on reddit. So I can't say won't ever visit again. It just happens. A few times today actually while I was setting something up and needed info. I simply won't be logged and I can't see ads and such anyway, so at least reddit won't make anything from me when I happen by.
It's honestly hard though. So many communities. A lot of great resources. I curated something positive and enjoyable through the app I used.
I mentioned this all to my partner today. They use reddit haphazardly. Turns out they have the official reddit app on their phone. Curious, I asked to look since seen it. Good grief. It was an intolerable mess. I show her a side-my-side with my phone and it was astounding. There's no way I can use it.
Anyway. C'est la vie.