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Apollo will close down on June 30th. Reddit’s recent decisions and actions have unfortunately made it impossible for Apollo to continue. Thank you so, so much for all the support over the years.
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- iamthatis
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- 6423 words
Note: this includes recordings of phone calls with reddit as part of a long write-up from Christian about the situation.
EDIT: I just finished reading the post and am honestly feeling a little emotional. The way reddit went about this is completely indefensible.
Just got to that part!
Low effort comment, and while I am upset at the situation, this has to be the best reddit drama I've ever seen
Speaking of drama, I bet this is going to be a fun AMA:
https://old.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/144ho2x/join_our_ceo_tomorrow_to_discuss_the_api/
0 points (
24%16%14% upvoted), and they even preemptively locked the announcement too.Unless Reddit does a complete 180, that AMA is going to be a serious contender to the throne of the most downvoted ever. The impressive 668k downvotes on the "sense of pride and accomplishment" comment still hasn't been beaten as far as I'm aware
For context. To a certain extent I felt for him back then. The_Donald was a toxic shithole beyond measure, and their regular harassment of him and the other reddit admins was so very wrong. So I totally understand his anger and frustration. But editing user's comments in response to that is crossing so far over the line of what's appropriate for the CEO (or any admin) to do, that it boggles my mind that he actually went through with it. It's childish, and completely undermines everyone's trust in the system.
I clicked the link was happy to see that I was party to that downvote train. EA's response was tonally flawed at the outset. Tomorrow's AMA is definitely going to have a slew of unsympathetic comments that will draw the ire of the masses.
As someone who joined reddit 16 years ago because of the management failures at Digg, it's quite something to watch history repeat itself.
Yet
this comment has all the feels of being a kid, sitting around a camp fire with little friends, when a parent (you) bring out plates of warm, fresh out of the oven cookies and mineral salts to throw into the fire.
Reddit changed so much. I’m gonna miss it. But I’ve realized what I loved about Reddit wasn’t Reddit. It was always you guys. Fuck Reddit, long live the people.
Making the switch over to Tildes, after eight years of being tied to the site, it feels like such a fresh breath of air seeing this new (to me) community of people. While it pains me to abandon the account I had, I feel like it is a well-needed detox. Threads are much more welcoming here, the quality of posts are just an A+ all around, the GUI is absolutely fantastic to a minimalist such as myself, it is safe for me to say that I truly won't miss Reddit's now user-caustic environment, even though I've been here for just two days. Vive la révolution!
I felt the same way today after reading it. It finally dawned on me that this is my last month on Reddit since I exclusively use it via mobile. I don't use any other social media, so this is a huge punch to the gut. 😭
I'm a Boost user myself, not Apollo, but I've been following Christian's interaction the exposure on this. I'm so incredibly grateful to developers like him and what they've provided all these years. I'm so grateful for everything they've done and hope it pays off as they move forward into new endeavors.
I joined Tildes with some hope, but things feel pretty uncertain atm. The loss of the third party apps and all their features is rough. It's going to take years for Tildes to catch up and some features may never see the light of day, things that helped me curate a more positive Reddit experience.
Afaik, there are no third-party apps for this site yet and the developers rely on browsers being the point of entry. For various reasons, this makes things clunky for me here. I completely get the choice to focus on the mobile browser layout of course, but the loss of all the features and user base is hard.
With that said, I'm still crossing my fingers and hoping for the best. Perhaps Tildes is everything we've been hoping for!
The developer behind RIF (Reddit Is Fun) is developing an app for Tildes.
This is great news! Thanks for the link. Checking it out now!
Also a Boost user.
If you would like a new browser, I recommend Vivaldi on Android. The UX is very thoughtful for tab groups and managing a ton of open pages. (I don't use it on desktop, just my phone.)
Yeah. Tab Stacks with bottom navigation
I'll take a look. Thanks!
rif just announced it will be going dark, too.
https://www.reddit.com/r/redditisfun/comments/144gmfq/rif_will_shut_down_on_june_30_2023_in_response_to
I'm a little self-conscious about this but I really do feel some noticeable emotions over this -- loss, grief, anger, sadness, etc. I've used RiF for so long while reddit has grown less and less recognizable. I made my first account in 2010 and reddit has been part of my life ever since.
In a way, RiF and its cozy old-school vibes has allowed me to somewhat ignore how alienating the current iteration of the internet feels to me. I think I could have frogboiled for even longer, to be honest, but the loss of third-party apps has forced me to reckon with it and it's been painful. Even if reddit reversed course, I don't think I'd ever be able to go back.
I was at my son's soccer practice when I saw the post about Apollo. Had to stop myself from screaming in frustration and disappointment. I've had reddit gold/premium since Alien Blue and also subscribed to Apollo Ultra. Will really miss the community, but I migrated from digg and it's time to move on again.
Today is a sad day.
FLOSS apps maybe, they will be gimped, no NSFW content, but perhaps infinity will come out on top for third party apps, ive used infinity for as long as I had a phone, I'll see July first if reddit is usable to me or not, one of my favorite subs for shit posting is NSFW, I alreadymade a good bye post in anticipation
I hate this so much. :(
I've been using RIF for around 12 years now.
RiF user here too. In case I still want to hold on to reddit for a bit, I have bookmarked Firefox pages, hoping that the web version of reddit can be bearable. But it seems like I will have to change habits a bit. This might be a bit of fresh air. For the last few years I have barely posted any meaningful content on there.
I moderate a few communities I can't really walk away from right now. But because of this, I'll only be using reddit to access those communities and only via old.reddit on the desktop. Won't moderate or visit the site on mobile anymore. And when they take old.reddit away, I'm gone.
old.reddit.com with RES is a good experience. Doesn't look the prettiest - but it's a very functional design.
I'm sure they will kill the old UI at some point though.
I love old. and RES. That's exactly how I want to use the site. It's clean and simple (mostly). Tildes is super clean and simple. old. and RES though: Not enough telemetry and ad space so it will get torpedoed.
That's how I browse. Reddit under glass, logged out, with all image and video hosting sites filtered along with hundreds of large subreddits and all of their fake advertising as content links. If you go that far /r/all can even still surface interesting niche content, not a bad way to find new smaller communities. However, I never read the comments anymore. It's just a link farm that gets duller every day.
It's such a shame that it's come to this.
I initially started browsing Reddit 12 years ago on Baconreader but after a few years I saw more and more people suggest Reddit is Fun as they claimed it offered a superior experience.
I tried the free version of RiF and I'm pretty sure I bought the full ad-free version within two or three hours it was that good. It's all I've ever used to browse Reddit since then.
Third party apps are all I've ever known for browsing Reddit, even on the odd occasion when I've done it on my PC I use RES.
I'm sad that it's come to an end, there's been a lot of great content and conversations over the years and 12 years as a user is a significant portion of my life (36.4%)!
However Reddit isn't what it once was, the same tired in-jokes that were never funny to begin with, the far-right coming out of their holes to harass people post-Brexit/Trump election, and the huge influx of typically younger users during the pandemic that pushed shorter-form content from Twitter, Instagram and TikTok to the top of the page (I didn't even subscribe to any default subreddits outside of AMA and World News and some of the niche subreddits I subscribed to couldn't escape it.)
All this to say, I'm sad but good riddance to bad rubbish if this is the road Reddit wants to go down.
Looks like our timing in shutting down the last Tildes Invite Request round couldn't have been more perfect. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that a great many of the Apollo (and RiF) users would make good Tildes users too. I myself used Apollo for many many years. But at the same time, this announcement would likely have caused a massive, massive surge in invite requests. And we already have so many new users that inviting too many more right now would have inevitably caused a noticeable shift in the culture here... not to mention likely causing a lot more admin/mod work for Deimos, until everyone new finally settled in (and the bad eggs got banned).
On that note, I definitely think it's best that we keep away from the full-on invite threads that result in thousands of new users for now, until things calm down a little. People that are genuinely interested in joining Tildes will check back for an opportunity to get an invite later.
But if anyone here has a few people that they want to invite, I've given 5 invites to everyone that already has a Tildes account (including all the newer users). You can access your invite links here: https://tildes.net/invite
Yeah, I think I am going to edit the locked invite round message to let people know we probably won't be doing another one this weekend in light of the Apollo and RiF announcements. The only problem is that I don't know when things actually will calm down enough for us to make another totally open one, since Apollo and RiF won't actually be shutting down until the end of the month when the API changes go into effect. :/ So it might be quite a while before we can safely open another one without being overwhelmed.
Perhaps we could open them very briefly, and lock them as soon as they reach a certain number of requests? Doing that once a week or so might be enough to keep the momentum going, but not change things here too drastically.
Honestly (and I’m probably offside as a newbie here) i feel that the invites coming from within this site are probably for the best.
People who meet the threshold of being good citizens can be rewarded with the ability to invite trusted friends or high quality discussions, and the traceability of who Invites who gives some kind of barrier to keeping out crapheads and weirdos.
IMO relying solely on internal invites has its major drawbacks too. And had we stuck to that policy in the past, you and a great many other users probably wouldn't be here now. So in a way, doing that feels kinda like pulling the ladder up after ourselves.
And TBH, I've seen enough concerning luls in activity here at Tildes over the years, even after previous big invite waves, to not want to let that happen again. Cozy is good, but the site barely hanging on by a thread is not a fun place to be either. So IMO it's a bit of a balancing act, and we should capitalize on the interest, but just not allow new users to completely overwhelm us and fundamentally alter the culture here.
I think the private tracker way of doing it is best, even here. Open the tap, close the tap before we flood the place, let the water settle in, then open the tap again. Repeat.
Might make sense for each round of invites to have a limit on the number of users. Do the threads for invites weekly but limit it to 300 or 400 people at a time and require that they read the documentation before being accepted. Can be as simple as sending it along with the invite code and telling them to read it before participating. (I've also been sending people who I invite this link, which I feel sums up the site really well and would be a good FAQ page for new users).
Yeah, that is roughly the current plan. I'm still going to open up the next invite request round this weekend, but I will cut it off after 500 requests or so. How often we do that will depend on how well behaved the next batch is.
I do like the idea of having people read the docs, and that's why it's features so prominently in the invite round self-text, but I don't really want to force people or make it an absolute requirement either. So I dunno how best to handle that.
We need a Discord to process interviews. I'm thinking personality test, credit check, letters of recommendation, lists of accomplished feats, and finally thoughts on some obscure 20+ year-old controversy of the interviewer's choice.
Maybe we could even start asking for their first-borns too! :P
Oh and tithes, how could I forget about tithes.
I mean... we're kinda sorta doing that one already. LOL
My recommendation is to just include the docs in the invite DM as well as in the post self-text. A lot of people may not read the post message because they're excited to get an invite. But they might read it if you link it when you send the invites.
Yeah, I can do that from now on. Good idea. Thanks for the suggestion. :)
I'm not worried about that at all (and yes, I have monitoring). In the absolute worst case if it was really necessary, I could take the site down for a few hours and migrate to a more powerful server. I think it's unlikely we'll reach that point though, there's a lot of headroom on the current server.
IIRC, Deimos said the current server could easily handle orders of magnitude more traffic without a problem. The code being exceptionally lightweight, and efficient helps with that. So I don't think that's too much of a worry, as long as we don't completely open the floodgates.
We will trip over default configuration options in the database and web services many, many times before 'load' is a problem. This machine pushes text around and that's it. Text is this tiny, almost forgotten arcane thing that is just so very much smaller than images, video, and tracking scripts. It barely counts as processing.
If memory serves, the ISP this site is running on includes some pretty significant DDOS protection as well - no cloudflare, captchas, or tracking BS involved. The ISP handles it all themselves as god intended.
We did talk about having a .onion address for Tildes a couple years back for max privacy, no idea where that went. I think I'd like to see that happen sometime. The invite-only mechanics solve the bad actor problem, so anonymous .onion users aren't a liability.
A balancing act indeed. I think that there is some critical threshold where an overwhelming number of users will turn conversations into stampedes where noise overpowers signal, and then only lowest common denominator comments float to the top. I see a lot of memetic comments at the top of Reddit threads like "I too chose OP's gf/wife/mom". (groan)
That was functionally how it worked for a long time because the Reddit invite threads are only in demand when reddit does something outrageous. But if it’s only current users then we have an issue with the community being too insular.
One of the perennial complaints about tildes culture has been that it’s too narrowly focused on a handful of techie/stem subjects and philosophizing about social media and online platforms. If we only recruit off the current member population we’ll just keep perpetuating the same founder effects and never expand the breadth of content in the platform.
Fair enough: and I see the delicate balance between an influx of “I just want memes and free porn” refuges from Reddit and getting in more than a bunch of Python programmers.
I thinking comes down to a sentiment shared above re: moderation, each of the users need to try and shape the community here through our discussions and content more so than some technical solution or rate limiting. Which requires plain old human labour.
It might make sense to have a waiting list?
I agree with halting invites for now, but the danger of leaving it too late is that people have moved on. A waiting list would solve both problems, although given short notice it would probably need to be managed manually or through some thirdparty website.
There basically already is a waiting list, in the form of emails sent to the invites email address.
The problems with a waiting list on reddit would be: How would we even implement one? And secondly, making a comment on reddit is pretty low-effort and low-commitment... so we will likely get a TON of users who aren't really actually interested in Tildes, and may not actually register/stick around after they receive an invite. So how do we stop that from happening, while also making sure the people who are actually really interested and will stick around get one without having to wait too long?
That's why I think the Open the tap, Close the tap, private tracker method might be best. Since then people who are actually committed enough to regularly check back on /r/tildes will be more likely to get an invite.
I was thinking just host something like this somewhere and point people to it in a pinned reddit post. Then you have a list of emails not tied to Reddit just nuking your subreddit and you can start inviting at any point.
Yeah, could do something like that. But the invites email address is already mentioned prominently in the /r/tildes Invite Request round self-text. So I'm not sure I see the real benefit of using something like that, over just the email address. But I'm not the one that likely needs convincing here. @Deimos, what do you think about it, and wait lists in general?
I don't really like a waiting list, because I think the main concern isn't really the volume/rate of requests. It's that a lot of the requests end up coming from people that don't necessarily want Tildes, they actually just want something that isn't Reddit that I can register on right now, while I'm upset.
We've had multiple of these massive invite waves in the past, and while some of Tildes' best users did come out of them and are still around, the huge majority of invites end up going to people that spend a day or two here, realize that it isn't really replacing Reddit for them, and then just go back to Reddit. That's totally fine for them to do, of course, but they also didn't really need an invite to make that realization, they could have just browsed the site logged-out for a couple of days.
The people that truly want to participate here aren't going to forget that Tildes exists just because they couldn't register immediately. Those are the people that are likely going to end up being the best members here, and I don't think we need to take drastic measures to make sure that we don't "miss the chance" with them.
Having Tildes grow is great, and it's been really nice to see all the new people over the last few days, but as always, it's more important that the site stays good than it is for it to be big.
(@streblo)
Can confirm. I remember waiting for Gmail invites for a while and maybe....fogcreek? I forget. And that one sudreddit for moms that isn't named: it's okay to have wait time for those less interested to look a little elsewhere.
Longest I ever waited for membership somewhere, it's apparently customary to wait 3 years. If they leave before they can "seal the deal", that's totally fine.
That being said thanks for individual user invites: we probably each know a few others who share the same appreciation for text based deeper conversations.
I was one of the people from an early invite wave in May 2018 that hasn't been super active on Tildes (I haven't even posted in roughly 4 years here).
I don't think an inactivity quota is the way to go, even if probationary. The current invite system is fine as is right now, as it does act as a self-filtering mechanism anyway. It's likely more important right now than ever. The read-only state should be decent enough to give people an idea if this is the type of content they like to ingest and participate in down the line.
Completely agreed - I'm new here but my experience is basically exactly what you described.
I found the site, browsed it for a while and was interested. Didn't immediately see a way to create an account, so I looked more and saw it was invite only.
I just browsed for a while before I was convinced this was something I'd like to be a part of, sent the request, and just browsed logged out until I could join. Me wanting to come back even without the ability to say anything really felt good, like I could genuinely just enjoy being here.
I think that gap is hugely important if you want to keep the atmosphere relatively consistent. It means you spend more time just seeing what people do here, how they interact, and what to expect. Not that you didn't already know this, but it was noticable for me and I wanted to confirm that it still works.
This gave me an idea for a way to grow Tildes without sacrificing quality. A mutual period of assessment. For the user - is this a place I want to be? For the community - is this person a good fit and did they contribute in a way that shows alignment with the philosophy of Tildes?
Two routes:
-- During this probationary period time, someone has a set # of days and at the end of which, their history/activity is reviewed. If they have not interacted at all, contributed in a fashion consistent with philosophy and aim of Tildes, their account is de-activated / removed.
Just spitballing! Thoughts?
Sorry for the slow response, but yes, I think that's the type of approach that would help this be more of a whole-community effort, instead of relying on only a few people to send out hundreds or thousands of invites. You could even just do something like only show their first few posts to older/trusted Tildes users and ask them whether it looks like the user is contributing or not.
I think there would be some other complexities to it (for example, how do you handle users that don't really post, but do vote), but it feels like it would be a better method overall.
On paper, there is no benefit. In reality, I would hazard a guess that people see an invite thread, open it, see thousands of comments and follow the train. How many emails do we get compared to reddit comments?
Edit: Alternatively, just lock the comments and point people to the email?
I don't have access to that information, since I don't have access to the email address (Deimos handles that). But AFAIK it's probably 1/10th the amount of emails as comments, maybe less. I suspect that will change now that the invite round is closed though. :P And IMO the people who actually take the time to write emails are probably far more likely to actually stick around than people who just write "invite me" in the comments. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm new here, and this is my first post, so take it for what it's worth. However, I'd like to make a suggestion. If you should go the route of briefly opening them, I'd suggest doing it at random times/days of the week, so that everyone has the opportunity to try and score an invite. Especially people who are in different parts of the world.
Yeah, I am not planning on being specific about when I am going to create the next invite round for exactly that reason. And if it goes on for a while, I will try to do it at varied points in the day/night to give Europeans and those further East a chance to see it before its locked, as well.
I'd say do another in like a week or two before the apps shut down and it's fresh on people's minds again. Close the invites before the actual day arrives. Otherwise wait until the middle of July.
I am now thinking twice to whom I am giving invites now, I was asked not nicely by a Reddit mod for an invite and screening his profile it was not a redditor who has a good wholesome record.
I feel like I'm judging people, but I genuinely want to positively contribute by adding well worthy people to Tildes!
Cool, thanks!
I was just thinking about this the other day. While I don't like gatekeeping in general, drip-feeding in new users does have some advantage, such as weeding out offensive users more easily vs getting a massive influx of refugees and not being able to maintain the site's culture of positivity.
Glad I got in before the cut. To be honest Reddit was getting dire and so I was really pleased to find Tildes. Its calm and conversational and I have enjoyed looking round. I think I am even getting the hang of tagging!
It's so nice to be like "thank god I got in during the last reddit crisis, because this one is so much worse". And it feels like that every time.
This place is so calm compared to reddit these days. It truly reminds me of the early-ish days when I joined and spent most of my time reading comments because there was an actual discussion. These days it’s just memes and the same old comments in every thread.
Recently joined in from Reddit and I really have to say that my few minutes being here, especially after reading the philosophies in the docs, make Tildes seem like a very calm and wholesome place to be in. And I think I’d like to stay!
Feeling like I just squeeked in through the door moments ago recieving an invite.
Like that scene in Titanic where the super heavy metal floodgates are closing and they had to get out in time.....
I hope people who want to stay will lurk here and be patient and come join us though.
They will. People tend to think invite only is a death knell, but that's because they haven't studied the problem. The people who were genuinely interested beyond tildes being the distraction of the moment will stick around and they will be the first in with the next wave.
I have bookmarked your other post and I do intend on reading the pdf, I promise. :)
Is there a thread about how Tildes will handle moderation?.
Not specifically. But this comment by @Amarok covers a lot of the basic ideas:
https://tildes.net/~tildes/15my/new_users_ask_your_questions_about_tildes_here#comment-7zcj
I think the main point worth driving home with regard to moderation is a simple one: moderation comes from aggregate action, not individual action. Sticking to that shuts out most behaviors that cause problems. Moderation must require at least some small kind of consensus within the community. Hell, even Word of Warcraft required you to get ten guildies and a small amount of gold together to make a guild. Users creating their own groups here needs to be at least that hard. Stop being entitled, learn to share and collaborate, and that it isn't all about you.
That said, you are all going to have to come to terms with the fact that there is always a human being with his finger on the power switch somewhere. You will never have some magical cloud software unicorn that perfectly decentralizes everything, safeguards everyone's rights and space, and is immune to being fucked with. I promise you I can break your pretty little system in five minutes with seven words, just like any troll worth their salt, because the group is always its own worst enemy. (PDF) I don't need to break the technology when it's so easy to weaponize the users.
If you haven't read that pdf, you aren't mentally equipped for this conversation yet and you're also in for a treat - pin it to your reading list and then come back here. This problem is the deepest rabbit hole on the internet. Even if you did have this perfect system, it would still visit tyranny upon you given enough time and applied entropy. No system you can devise can survive its own success, and if the users decide to go into riot mode, you're along for the ride, nothing can stop it.
If you can't beat eternal september, learn to dance with it. That's kinda how reddit lasted this long - new communities just kept popping out of the old ones when the old ones fell apart. That kept it all on the same website. The eternal churn in subreddits is the natural state of things - so stop trying to fight that and try actually planning for it. That's why we can pop groups out of their parents with tags and collapse them back into their parents again, even have plans to flow exemplary content up from children into the parent groups. Tildes can facilitate what on reddit was considered unwanted emergent behavior. It can build the networks between the groups that usenet and reddit never could. It's a next step, at least. That's more than any other forum/aggregator can offer.
This moderation problem has destroyed every single human institution, and the idea that magical internet software can wallhack its way past human history and the laws of entropy is so fucking absurd I can't even put it into words - and yet, that's all the hivemind can whinge about. Which one of these /r/redditalternatives is worthy of passing our nonsensical litmus tests? The tribes run around looking for pretty rocks and the uncomprehension continues. Reddit and Facebook continue making twelve cents a year on each and every one of these fools.
If you want a better forum, be prepared to put in some work for it. The natural state of things is that it's all falling apart all the time, exactly as it comes together for the next step. I tell you all of that so I know we're on the same page when I tell you some things are still a manual affair here - like Deimos banning users or locking threads, or a handful of editor-types. Those are trust-based positions, and anyone who creates a new tildes node is going to be in the role of dictator over their site just like Deimos is here. Pick your dictators wisely, like we have.
The system that would make these much more dangerous actions rise from the community like labels do for comments simply do not exist yet - Tildes hasn't needed them, and it's our policy (and just plain good sense) not to solve the problem until you actually have to solve it. I'm pretty sure it looks like a separation of powers model (bailiffs, editors, curators) but we have not crossed that bridge yet. We're not made of money or developer hours. We talk about it for days in ~tildes and the developers mull it over in their threads on gitlab. Solutions get proposed, most of them are just waiting to be implemented up there right now. It's called convocational development.
I have my own rants about this stuff that are seven years old. We've been taking about solving these problems far longer than Tildes itself has existed. The only thing I know for sure is this: No for-profit entity will ever be any good at this stuff. The golden handcuffs are flatly incompatible with serving the community. They lead to inevitable enshittification.
So, TLDR: You will be the moderator, and your participation itself will eventually determine in which communities you gain these powers, how long you hold them for (they will decay with inactivity), and how far they go. There will be differing roles for moderators that loosely correlate to things like policeman, firefighter, newspaper editor, and museum curator... and probably more, who knows. The person who ultimately makes the decision how this goes is the person who actually writes the code for it.
As a new user, I'm already loving this place. It's exactly what I want in an internet community. When I want instant communication, I go to discord; for browsing, I think I'll come here now.
I'm probably one that was invited by you on the Reddit thread a couple of days ago, thanks for the safe haven <3
It's an incredibly shitty behavior to libel the person who makes your product drastically better. In the previous thread, I said I wouldn't quit reddit even though I want to because it has no alternative, but fuck their management, I'm done.
It genuinely baffles me how awful companies like reddit treat their power users that make their platforms so appealing. I hope those people go somewhere else, wherever it is, but most importantly, I hope mods just make a lot of noise about this and perhaps better yet, just leave. Why would anyone want to do free work for scumbags like this?
I was in the same boat as you not wanting to completely quit Reddit, likely just stopping use on mobile and only using old + RES.
But that post by Christian documenting their business practices and bold faced lies during this whole debacle has completely turned me off. I can’t in good faith support their ad revenue stream now via any kind of interaction or comment/post creation. I’m done with that site now, ‘twas fun while it lasted.
The AMA with spez tomorrow is going to be wild.
Yeeah, the whole situation is the reason why I'm here now.
Welcome! I hope you like it here.
You're absolutely right that alienating the people who make the platform a desirable place to be is an incredibly bad move, but I wonder how badly this will hurt them, at least in the short term. Reddit is in a bit of a power position right now since there are no immediate alternatives, like there was at the time of the Digg exodus to Reddit.
I don't think the number of users leaving the website will be significant, but the type of users who pay Apollo will leave. These users are the ones that create all that interesting and funny content that entices people to visit and return to reddit. Maybe not immediately, but this will have a cascading affect on these users and a regular reddit user who visits /r/all a few times a day will feel the change and quality drop down overtime. Maybe they won't be bothered by it or maybe they will, but I firmly believe once companies lose what makes them special, there's nothing that can save them. And reddit's been on that path for years now. Every drama they've had, and they've had many, is a straw that breaks someone's camel's back and I think this will be the one reddit management will regret the most -- just not immediately.
Yeah, this all makes sense to me. I paid for Apollo, although hadn’t yet opted for the subscription, and I certainly intend to cut my participation on Reddit from here on out, and utilize other sites as much as I can. And for the browaing I do, I won’t use the app, only old Reddit.
Reminder that if y’all shut your Reddit accounts down to use a tool like Power Delete Suite to retroactively delete all your posts/comments/whatever.
Don’t allow them to continue monetizing content you provided to them for free.
They want people to see their ads so bad? Don’t give people a reason to go to Reddit to see ads in the first place.
Be sure to let your friends know, as well!
ooohhhh, why did you have to let me know about this, now I'm actually tempted! It appears that it'll also let you replace comments instead of deleting them. Replacing thousands of karma worth of comments with a protest statement would probably be the best way to stick it to Reddit.
I'm thinking 'Comment removed in protest of Reddit's recent decision to push out 3rd party apps', along with a link to news coverage of the travesty.
Hell yeah. That’s the route I’m taking I guess. I have a 13 year old account with like 50,000+ comment karma. Might as well put it to use.
Also, be sure to let your friends know about these tools!
This is the way to do it. Leave a protest statement on the way out.
Are these tools easy to use for someone who isn’t tech illiterate, but who isn’t exactly tech fluent either?
They’re basically automated, so yeah. But I think they only work for comments that are less than a year old (or maybe even shorter). After some time Reddit archives old content and you can’t easily edit it anymore.
I can’t say, myself. It was gonna be my weekend project.
I also found this bulk downloader which I will try and use to backup my saved posts locally: https://github.com/aliparlakci/bulk-downloader-for-reddit
I have not tried it yet though, so no promise that it actually works..
Most of the bulk downloaders use the reddit API, and as such are limited to the most recent 1000 items, so it'll only get your 1000 most recent saved posts, 1000 most recent comments, etc. A slightly more reliable way is using Reddit's data request system, which isn't limited to the most recent 1000, to get a full list of saved posts (in csv format). (Which should be possible to pass into one of the bulk downloader tools to actually archive.)
IIRC the data request takes a few hours to process, and then sends you a link to a zip file through a reddit message. I'm not sure if there are good tools for processing that export, but it's just CSV, so anything that can handle that (ie. excel/google sheets if you're less of a tech person) should work.
That's perfect, thanks for that! CSV works just fine :D
I’ll have to give that a shot. Sounds like a very similar process as the one I went through when I left Facebook.
Yeah, same with the delete tool, also probably works via API. I'm putting both of it off right now because I hate digital housekeeping... :|
I wasn't aware! Thanks for the heads up!
Is the delete tool you’re talking about different than the Power Delete Suite?
No worries! Just wanted to make sure!
Ahh crap. I just deleted my older account before seeing this. Thanks for the reminder though, still hanging onto my "newer" one until June 30th. Then I'll go ahead with deleting my old posts & account.
Edit: And DONE. After that dumpster fire of a AMA, I don't think there's any point in going back.
Let your friends know about these tools, too!
They have the ability to reset these, and I'm sure they'll disable editing after x time in response.
Never imagined the tipping point of Reddit would be a third party client shutting down.
Reddit's growth was built on third party apps. Back when reddit didn't have an app, and their mobile site was garbage (to be fair it still is, but now it's on purpose to funnel people into the app), third party apps were how people engaged on mobile. Reddit is only what it is BECAUSE of third party apps, and it's a spit in the face to see them being treated like this. Especially when mobile Reddit is the primary way people use the site (because of the like 15 years of mobile third party apps + wanting to mimic other mobile first social things)
A whole other conversation is the irony of Reddit charging devs for "its API and content" when all of the content on Reddit is provided by free from the users. Our posts, comments, videos, memes, livestreams are all from us. The Reddit 'staff' don't actually provide anything but the infrastructure. And sure, you're allowed to charge for that use, but you should remember that the only reason you're actually able to stay in business is because people keep coming back. Once you start enshittifying yourself, it's a gauranteed cycle (could be slow, could be overnight) into irrelevancy and something will take your place sooner or later
It's super telling when the CEO was asked and said he doesn't really know much about the third party apps because he doesn't use them and most of the team doesn't either. They don't care and they're oblivious as to how important they are to some users and mods.
I would almost guarantee that that was a lie. There's zero chance that the CEO of Reddit hasn't used an award-winning app like Apollo, if only to see what it's about.
Yeah, I personally don't believe it. You have to try out, research your competitors and compare them with your own solution if you want to stay ahead.
Whoa that link about enshittification is a great essay. That’s worth it’s own post. It puts into words something I’ve struggled to quantify or describe on my own.
https://tildes.net/~tech/1483/tiktoks_enshittification ;)
Ah I missed that it was Doctorow in the wired link. That makes a lot of sense. His work seems to resonate with me. I need to figure out a good rss system or something similar so I can stop getting my news from an algorithm.
Interested in RSS? Perhaps this will help. :)
Ok ok, I’ll get my home lab back up and running and look into the current batch of self hosted rss readers. Any suggestions on that front, since you’ve been so helpful?
I have always just used Thunderbird for my RSS needs, and have over a decade now... so I can't help you much there unfortunately. You could make a topic in ~tech asking for advice/help though. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here who would be willing to suggest some self-hosting options.
I'm wondering most about the impact on moderating. I know RES/Toolbox won't be impacted, but how many people were using Apollo or other third party apps for all their great moderation tools?
I read somewhere that custom moderation bots wouldn’t be impacted assuming they had reasonable usage, but we’ll have to see. It sounded like a case by case basis, which we all know they don’t have the resources to triage.
Absolutely. We had like 4-5 custom bots running in addition to AutoMod when I still moderated. There will be knock-on effects.
To me, that means they have to spend the time evaluating what's useful. They can't be trusted to handle that process IMO.
I remember spez saying too much of their code runs on old Reddit for it to ever go away. Or something like that. Doesn’t reassure me though.
I hadn't heard that before but I guess he means the old codebase is still used even for parts of the new UI. But sadly I think that wouldn't stop them from turning off access to old.reddit.com for users.
My guess would be that new reddit has a lot of old reddit's code carried over, and they certainly share a lot of infrastructure. But neither of those things would prevent them from outright blocking public access to old.reddit.com.
I definitely don't trust spez, especially (espezially?) after the bullshit he pulled with Christian.
That’s what I think will happen. Old reddit eventually becomes inaccessible while remaining part of the infrastructure.
The third party apps that make browsing their terribad website tolerable are not “useful” I guess.
Maybe they should use the term “tools that make us money off other peoples labors” instead.
I decided long ago that I would continue a reddit premium subscription as long as the price didn't increase and they continued to support third-party apps for this reason.
When they made this announcement, I cancelled my subscription.
They could have easily worked in some sort of exemptions for users with reddit premium, but they didn't because it's really not about the money.
They can't go to an IPO while they're essentially supporting their own direct competition, regardless of how much money they're actually making off of it.
Exactly. I would have been more than happy to pay for API access, either directly to Reddit or through a third-party app like Apollo. But the problem is, they don't want it; what they really wanted was to kill third-party apps, but were too cowardly to just come out and say it.
Depending, of course, on their definition of "useful". As we've seen from their definition of "reasonable," that may not hew to the reality the rest of us live in.
RES said they were told they weren't likely to be affected in private. Not sure that means much when 3rd party app devs were told similar things at the start pf the year.
If you want to get technical, the third party clients are popular because the official client is shit, and the tipping point of Reddit being the fact that the client is shit shouldn't be that surprising.
Welp, looks like I'm out. I left Twitter, so I don't feel like leaving Reddit will be much harder. Plus it just means more time investing in the community here.
Reddit Is Fun is also shutting down.
It's like Reddit looked at how Twitter handled everything with third party apps and said, "hold my beer" before running into the fray.
Twitter killing third party clients was the kick in the pants I needed to leave that platform...the same thing is happening with Reddit.
What's really sad is that the reality is that they will end up pushing most people to the official app, where they can spam them with ads and track the fuck out of them, enabling them to make more money.
In the end, the people at the top will get a nice fat cash out during the IPO and enjoy being fuck-off rich for the rest of their lives.
There will be an AMA where Reddit CEO Steve Huffman (/u/spez) won't actually answer any questions, tomorrow: https://redd.it/144ho2x
They're really pushing it, too. Look at this big banner they put at the top of old reddit: https://i.imgur.com/zo4pjh7.png
Interesting how third-party apps didn't make the cut for the topics in that list. Guessing reddit doesn't want to acknowledge/broadcast their existence to a wider audience, despite the fact that many third-party reddit apps existed long before reddit saw fit to develop one themselves.
It will be like the infamous Rampart AMA, except they will just ignore questions not related to things they want to talk about instead of explicitly stating they don't want to talk about it.
Well, that settles it. Reddit was fun while it lasted, this is my home from now on.
Reddit is fun was fun.
At least we will have the memories. Make sure to take some screenshots before everything goes away.
Losing good software written by a good person for no good reason makes me sad.
This is an incredible comment in multiple ways lol depending on how you read it.
I’ve been slowly leaving Reddit anyways these past two years. There has still been a few handful of subs that I’ve been active on but there’s other communities elsewhere on the internet for that anyways. I was over it once they introduced the new social media style of Reddit.
Same. I'm going to keep my account, as I have a lot of saved posts to still go through, but there isn't going to be any active use.
I made an account here awhile back and let it sit but I think I’m going to make more of an effort to be active. What Spez and his sycophants have done to Christian (and all the 3rd party app devs, really)is appalling. I haven’t made a final decision about deleting my Reddit account but I’m starting to give it more serious thought after today.
You just reminded me that one of the founders of Reddit was Aaron Swartz, who's hand in creating RSS and Creative Commons was more than enough to show his commitment to the open web. What they're doing to his legacy is so disrespectful that he's probably spinning in his grave.
Reddit has been slowly on the way out for me in some ways. Mainly the toxic political stuff and seeing things that I can’t un-see. I left Twitter a month ago and never looked back. I used Reddit mainly as a news reader, but from a mental health standpoint I’m much better off. I’m logged out atm, and I think I’ll delete my account on the 30th. I feel it’s the right thing to do. The main subreddit I follow is /r/stopdrinking as a tool for my sobriety and I’ve just started on a sober app that feels like a good replacement. Im 666 days off booze today YAY! I’m enjoying what I see here on Tildes, and I am going to check out the AMA tomorrow out of curiosity. As an Apollo user for years it doesn’t sit well with me what’s happening to the apps that have contributed so much to them.
Congratulations, what a fantastic milestone in every way!
Okay, I just read this post and I hope I can express some doubt / confusion here without being dogpiled, like I probably would on reddit. I am really confused as to what Christian was suggesting when he said (from the call transcript):
Spez, apparently, put it to moderators on a call this way:
I might be misunderstanding, but what Christian says doesn't sound all that far from a threat! He literally did say it would "make it easier on your guys" if they cut him "a check for $10 million". He says "that's mostly a joke" but if you listen to the call audio, it sounds to me that if he thought Reddit would take the offer seriously, he would have left that part off.
It sounds from the rest of the transcript that what the Reddit admin understood was that Christian was threatening to continue making a stink about the API pricing change, not offering to shut down the app early. That definitely is a threat and I think not at all what Christian meant. (Although it's still not at all clear - all we know is that spez decided to say Christian made a threat, we don't know what the unnamed admin did think Christian meant.) But, I don't really understand why Christian would make the offer he did make, because he really doesn't have any bargaining power.
They both know it's not realistic for him to say "either I don't shut down the app and you lose $20 million/year in opportunity cost, or you pay me $10 million and I'll shut it down now and you get to start earning that $20 million right away". Reddit has already decided that they're going to force him to shut the app down by hammering him with unsustainable API costs! He and they both know that he can't afford to actually hold out with Apollo and incur Reddit any opportunity cost at all. They're trying to make Christian pay them for the API usage, they certainly would never entertain paying him! So why say it in the first place? Was it really just a joke?
I found that whole part very confusing and not quite so straightforward as spez making things up about Christian. Am I missing something?
I had better add that, although spez was apparently not the Reddit admin who Christian made the offer to, that admin did admit that they mistook Christian's offer as a threat, apologised for doing so and said that they understood he wasn't trying to threaten them. So no matter how weird the offer was it's, at best, extremely disingenuous for spez to take that to a private call without Christian and say that it was a purposeful threat. There was already very little good in how Reddit has been handling this and this is a sharp down turn.
What he meant is that if it costs Reddit $20M/year for Apollo to operate, then Reddit could simply pay him $10M and he would "quiet down" his API calls by sunsetting the app. This would pose a win-win situation in that Christian would benefit financially, and Reddit would "stop bleeding money" in server costs. Of course, this was a bit tongue in cheek in that Christian knows his app doesn't cost Reddit nearly that much, I think what he meant was "there's no way these API calls cost you that much, and here is a simple reason why they don't." Obviously Reddit couldn't pay every 3rd party app to close down because people would just keep making more and charging Reddit to close them, but Christian admitted during the call that he was joking during the call. If you haven't already, you should listen to the recording he posted on Reddit, I think it is pretty self-explanatory.
I did say I did listen to the call as well as read the transcript, that was as much where my confusion came from as the post.
Not sure if the users post above helped with confusion here.
Basically, I think Christian was essentially calling them out on their supposed operating costs. Reddit said their API costs would be based in reality, which $20 million per year is not, even based on their own numbers. I believe Christian's point in those quotes you cited were basically him saying "Pay me half of your yearly operating costs, I will shut down the app. Then you save $10 million in operating costs this year, even after buying me out."
I don't take this as a threat, so much as him saying "If your operating costs for my app is this high, it would be a no-brainer to buy me out and save the company money." Which they obviously won't do, as if operating costs were that high, this would be a win-win proposal. That's where he starts suggesting he is joking. He knows others on that call know his app doesn't cost Reddit this much money. Reddit knows it, he knows it, so it's a ludicrous suggestion that he pay Reddit $20 million a year.
If Reddit wants to force the end of third party apps, they could easily do that without throwing out ludricrous pricing. Instead they are running this charade around what is an obvious move to force people on to their app to maximize profits. There's no reason to drag developers along the way they are, especially while running their name through the mud. It's just really bad PR all around, honestly.
EDIT: I also want to point out, in business, it's generally bad advice to call someone out as a liar without undeniable proof. In my opinion, this was his way of saying "You're lying, and it's obvious. If this wasn't a lie, you would just buy me out."
I've heard this explanation on Reddit as well (prefaced with an "obviously!", of course) - that Christian was joking to poke at the absurdity of Reddit trying to charge him €20 million in the first place. I'm not really sure about that - I personally feel it's reading a bit too much into his words. Neither he nor the admin alluded to the offer really being a joke when they were coming to an agreement on what he did say. They seemed to agree that Christian had made some form of serious offer, just one that was sincere and not intended to be coercive. Obviously Christian isn't going to say "well I just said that to point out how absurd it is to ask for $20 million a year for this app, which you are doing to me, while saying that's a reasonable price" even if that is what he did mean by his offer. But if that is what he meant, what did the admin think Christian meant, when they accepted that they had misunderstood him?
Anyway, it's quite a short transcript and being that it was a phone call where there was cross-talk, it's definitely believable that neither party quite communicated what they meant by the time they hung up. Like vivarium said it sounds like the end of a pretty contentious conversation. I think your interpretation is believable. And, of course, it is so absurd for them to pretend that a cost of $20 million a year to run Apollo is reasonable that they might as well be lying about it.
On that we agree!
e: Separately:
But Reddit could also just revoke his API key and prevent Apollo from working entirely without paying a dime. I think they'd do that to save (what they believe will be!) $20 million, if optics weren't a consideration. They're already basically doing that with the API pricing, just in a much more underhanded way. The operating costs problem is already going to be solved. So how is it a win for them to pay him instead?
He says during the call that he's just joking, doesn't he?
Honestly, I mostly agree with you? The recording doesn't exactly look great for Christian. It feels like a poorly-worded, off the cuff kind of comment made by someone who's at the end of their wits dealing with a party who's betrayed and stonewalled them.
I also think it's possible that Christian was in an indignant sort mindset, sort of like... "I maintain an app that has the features and polish to attract a userbase "worth" upwards of $20M in activity a year. I've put in hundreds of hours of blood, sweat, and tears to maintain a user experience that draws users to your service. People keep messaging me asking why Reddit hasn't bought out my app like they've done with other apps in the past. So, If you're not willing to cooperate with me, why not just buy me out too? It'll make this an easier, quieter, less ugly process on everyone involved."
Except instead of that coming out, it was a messy truncated version, with the unfortunate emphasis being on "quiet" and "$10M".
I think what Christian meant by “go quiet” was to redesign Apollo a bit to use fewer API calls, possibly by removing some features.
I think it was an unrealistic ask for money from Reddit to do that considering, as he explains in the rest of the post, that they wouldn't even give him time to do it although he did offer repeatedly to try. Can't blame him for asking, though.
Well, it is what it is. Sad that it has to go this way. I'm more sad about Reddit is Fun, as it was always my favorite reddit client (Apollo is what I used on iOS, but I always felt like it had too many touch targets).
In between the end date I might try and make a quick and dirty RiF clone that scrapes from old.reddit.com. I probably won't make it public since it definitely breaks ToS.
I'm done, too. I'm new to tildes and will be happy to invest here.
Looks like they're having an AMA tomorrow to discuss the API changes. I'm sure that'll go well.
https://old.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/144ho2x/join_our_ceo_tomorrow_to_discuss_the_api/
This doesn't really change anything for me; I was already planning on leaving Reddit now that I'm on Tildes.
But wow, Reddit's actions here are just completely inexcusable. Even if they backpedal and reduce the pricing, any goodwill they had (if any) is completely gone by now.
Reddit will be hosting an AMA with the CEO about the API changes: https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/144ho2x/join_our_ceo_tomorrow_to_discuss_the_api/
My downvotes are ready.
Quickly, everyone. Now is the time to invest in popcorn stocks.
A bag of popcorn actually is light enough for drone delivery. But, how to pop it all with solar power on the way to its destination?
Clearly we need to get ahead on the lightweight microwave market.
Wow!
It is said that projects will inherently reflect the culture of the team that produced them. I guess it shouldn't be surprising that Reddit's management is dishonest, disorganized, and shamelessly socially manipulative.
I can't believe this is really happening. Feels so much more real with these announcements. I've been using RIF for 12+ years across many different Android phones over the years. My reddit account is 15+ years old and I can't imagine Reddit without old.reddit on the web and RIF on mobile. Together, they ARE reddit to me. If/when old.reddit goes away, I'm out completely. As it stands now, I'll likely only use reddit on my desktop PC going forward. Which sucks because I'm a moderator of a few large subreddits and it will impact my ability to effectively moderate those communities, too.
I’m here from Reddit (already enjoying the site, by the way!) and fully plan to delete my Reddit accounts at the end of June. The ridiculous API fees to force third party apps to shutter were already enough to make me want to leave, but the skeezy behavior and outright lying about the Apollo dev that just came out today is appalling. I look forward to making Tildes my new content site.
sync as well.
It’s a real shame but at the same time, it pushed me to seek out other communities that are more mindful. I think reddit will be a place I visit less and less
The only reason I even used Reddit in the last couple years was because of Apollo, given Reddit has become a cesspool of bots and inflammatory posts/comments. I kept telling my husband that I love using Apollo so much that it was sad it was only for Reddit. Hopefully Christian can take what he created and use it for a better community (like this one) at some point.
oh phew i still have my login for this website saved
yet another chapter of reddit shoot itself in the foot and wondering where the gun came from and who pulled the trigger
I hate to lose access to the few remaining things I used reddit for (sysadmin info, linux stuff, hardware deals, and sale/trade of tech) but I'm really considering closing the accounts now. I don't even use Apollo, but I also don't want to support Reddit at all anymore. It's a cesspool with a failure of a leader (sounds familiar to another social media site I left)
I'm actually in a pretty similar boat with what I still used Reddit for. I don't think Tildes is quite the news aggregator or think-tank on problems reddit can be, and I don't believe its trying to be. I've got so used to checking reddit for solutions or news on big events I'm actually a bit worried about where I'll look now. Do you have any sysadmin / IT general places you're checking beyond reddit you could recommend?
Yeah, it's sad to see a site with a wealth of crowd-sourced information mishandled so badly. I imagine I'll still be putting reddit in my google searches sometimes to find solutions to problems, until that information can hopefully make it elsewhere.
Maybe the compromise I'll make is that I'll keep one account around and only use it at work, or something.
Sadly, I haven't found anything that will be a true replacement for r/sysadmin, r/linux, etc. but I do keep an eye on sites like Hacker News / Y Combinator and Lobste.rs but the former is more tech news based, the latter is more programming based... whereas r/sysadmin has a wealth of very specific IT-worker/admin information and conversations, like about patches, vendors, etc. that does not have a solid alternative as far as I am aware
Ah, it sounds like you're in the same boat as me then. Having a work specific reddit account for when Microsoft managed to take down O365 or push a bad patch seems like a good idea. I might even just add those specific subreddits into a multi-reddit and book mark that in my daily "News" bookmark folder.
Reddit was a good way to crowdsource opinions and ideas, particularly for sysadmins and IT folks. If something big happened, there would usually be a new / rising post with people collaborating around a workaround. Saved me in the past.
Tildes seems like a good place to invest some time though. What this platform has traded in terms of potential outreach, it seems to make up for it in quality. I'm certain there are some talented people on here who can put their heads together for great effect.
I am an Apollo user, and it is sad to see them go. After Apollo shuts down, I’ll switch to desktop only. Apollo is the best app for Reddit I have ever used. That used to be the official app once upon a time. Then they changed the video player, forced suggestions into your home feed. Then the tipping point was the sort. I like to sort by hot. The official app no longer allows you to do that, so I moved to Apollo. Apollo has been the best Reddit experience I have ever had.
Between when the original Alien Blue client stopped working and when I found Apollo, I just didn't access reddit on my phone. I don't remember how long that was, but it was no skin off my back. I'm primarily an old reddit desktop user, but I still use Apollo on my phone all the time. Sometimes when I'm even at my computer!
I refuse to use the official app. I tried it and it sucks. I'll just reduce the time I spend on reddit. Which is probably for the best.
Guess I'm finally leaving that cesspool for good, I've been playing with the idea for years now. Fediverse and Tildes it is now.
On a side note, I hope they receive way less than they're expecting with their IPO, just out of spite.
What a complete kerfuffle. It's been interesting seeing Tildes grow as a result of another internal Reddit issue, but this really might be the biggest of them all.
"We asked people with so much money they can no longer conceptualize any specific amount, and they didn't think the number had any particular meaning, so it seems all good."
I got to say, of all the things int hat post, this maybe hits the hardest. If they had at least been honest and done a marketing-excuse like "Yeah it's pretty steep but so are our costs given the scale of the system we're running here" or so, fine. We all know it's bullshit, but it's the typical excuse-type bullshit we're all used to.
But indirectly this also confirms that their intent is exactly to kill off third-party apps to desperately try get people onto their own app. The only reasons you would not think Twitter's prices are ridiculous are:
After reading over some of the comments that spez has to replied to in that trainwreck of an AMA, I deleted all the content, then deleted my profile.
7 and a half years of being on reddit. Not as long as others have mentioned, but I have high hopes for tildes.
Feels like a fresh start.
This a weird feeling. I've never used an app so much and had a "relationship" with the developer along the way. I'm genuinely going to miss the app and what it represented not just the content. First AlienBlue and now this. I don't know if I'm going to leave all together but this will cut my reddit use down significantly as I use old.reddit on my work comp and Apollo for everything else. This is a good thing. When old.reddit is gone I am too.
This is the only way - go out guns blazing and on top.
Read the devs post and after reading it deleted both of my Reddit accounts, felt no set back either. it's time for a better site to rise up (Tildes) and let Reddit die once and for all.
I surprised myself at how upset I was at how the Apollo dev was being treated. He’s always been a good partner to Reddit and an advocate for his users. To see him treated this poorly was painful to read.
100% agree, and it's great the dev recorded the calls, so now Reddit devs really can't speak shit or turn the table so to speak even tho they tried lol.
Like anyone could have predicted, the AMA is a trainwreck. Some answers concerning accessibility, mod features, and their official app are addressed but anything regarding the death of major 3rd party apps is ignored and spez even continues to blame/slander the devs. I was hoping maybe theyd double back, but I think they are dead set on their decisions.
Guess I'm finally leaving the cesspool for good, I've been playing with the idea for years now.
https://archive.is/HNODK
Glad you had the same idea as me. I was wondering if this post would be taken down.
someone already archived it too it wasn't just me
GG
Welp
Hello everyone