A few months ago someone posted an article on the male loneliness epidemic. I had shared my thoughts in the comments on that post. But I think that article and a lot of comments are under the impression that "redpill" content/ideology is still in vogue or relevant in today's world. It still has its followers and influencers for sure, but it's not at the forefront of cultural discussions anymore. To think otherwise is outdated, the redpill era died around 2022/2023 and was replaced by a more incel-derived "blackpill" era.

Thanks to TikTok, what was once relegated to niche internet forums became mainstream. The biggest influencer from this internet phenomenon is Clavicular, who is currently getting articles written about him in press outlets such as The Hollywood Reporter and People.

I am no stranger to talking about looks (side note: I would have taken more time to write that out and discuss broader topics, such as "types," if I had known it would have gotten as much attention as it did). And I have been around looksmaxxxing spaces on the internet since about 2022. I'll try to make this as brief and simple as I can.

What is the blackpill?

The blackpill is a deterministic outlook on life. It states that your genetics determines the quality of your life, and if you were not born with advantageous bone structure and height, then "it was over before it even started." You won't be successful in life, you won't find love, and you will end up a lonely, pathetic person wishing you'd been born looking better.

How does this differ from the redpill?

The redpill has some overlap with the blackpill. Both believe that men are the true victims of society. That feminism has been detrimental, this and that, and the other. The redpill, however, insinuates that you can self-improve. There's almost zero focus on improving looks, and it's almost entirely focused on making money and increasing your status.

A core belief of the redpill is that all women are gold diggers, and in order to get laid, you need to make a ton of money. The blackpill does not entirely dispute this, but it does say that if a woman chooses you for money, she will never actually love you. And that you are paying a lot of money for affection and attention that an attractive man gets for free.

I think that explanation in and of itself should show you the difference between the two.

What's looksmaxxxing? Are looksmaxxxing and the blackpill interchangeable terms?

They are not.

Looksmaxxxing is what guys do to look better, to increase their rankings on the looks scale. So that they can start getting laid (primarily) or start to "mog" (i.e., outshine everyone in a room).

In certain blackpill spaces looksmaxxxing is seen as cope, since, again, your life was determined by genetics and there's nothing you can do to fix this.

You might think looksmaxxxing consists of losing body fat, getting a skin care routine, dressing nicely, hygiene, and cologne. And that is part of it, all of that stuff is considered "softmaxxxing" but there's also "hardmaxxxing" as in surgeries and other more serious treatments such as steroids and peptides (which technically occupy a grey area between soft and hard maxxxing). An example of a popular surgery is double jaw surgery, here's the subreddit for it so you can see examples. If your jaw was not properly developed and you have a recessed chin (or a pushed-in chin), then a double jaw surgery is something you can do that would greatly increase your attractiveness. Although it does carry quite a bit of risk. There are other surgeries that people do on their eyes, their noses, ear pinning, there's a lot.

It is essentially a belief that your best investment is going to be in how you look. It's a bit of a running joke that instead of going to college, you should invest in plastic surgery, and that will do more to make your life better than a degree.

How do they view women? How do they view themselves?

The belief is that women are hypergamous. That they will only want to date up, and it's significantly easier for women to date and get laid, even if they are below average looking. And that even an above average looking man will have trouble since they aren't the holy grail of attractiveness.

Here's a brief explanation of their rating system.

• Sub-5

5 is considered average; sub-5 means below average. Not even that you don't get attention but that you get negative attention from the people around you.

• Low-Tier Normie / Low-Tier Becky
• Mid-Tier Normie / Mid-Tier Becky
• High-Tier Normie / High-Tier Becky

The "normie" categories are all average categories. Ranging from on the low side of average (LTN) to above average (HTN). The High Tier categories are where a lot of attractive actors sit, think romcom leads, the boy/girl next door types.

• Chad/Stacy

Essentially unobtainable beauty. Taylor Hill or Henry Cavill.

Depending on who you're talking to, someone would say that "life starts at HTN" or that life doesn't exist unless you're "Chad." And that if you're anything below that, you might as well not even exist.

How did it get popular?

The first instance most people probably heard of it was likely in 2014 when Elliot Rodger committed a mass shooting at a University. He was a member of a looksmaxxxing forum (the original looksmaxxxing forum, I believe), which led to the site being shut down and thus delaying any chance of its popularity. If you go back and watch and read what Elliot Rodger believed, it makes more sense in today's context now that this thought process has been more normalized.

In 2023, TikTok started promoting this content. Primarily from "edits" here's an example and coinciding with that were also the rise of a few influencers. All leading up to Clavicular, and how dominant he is on social media (thanks in part to funding from Peter Thiel). He was a kid posting on looksmaxxxing forums, was a micro celebrity in the niche, became a slightly bigger internet celebrity on TikTok before streamers started bringing him on leading to his insane fame.

Conclusion

Going back to the initial tildes post that I linked to. That whole thing was essentially saying, if you're just a good person, then someone will want to date you or fall in love with you or want to have sex with you or whatever. And I think part of the reason why looksmaxxxing stuff has taken off is that it feels more honest. It's not coddling you, and if you do improve your looks, you're going to see better results in dating than if you read feminist literature or something. So the takeaway ends up being that one of these places was telling me the truth.

Like, on a broader scale, it's a response to the body positivity stuff from the 2010s. When everyone was being told that it's okay if you're obese, it's healthy, it's beautiful. And there was just kind of a sense of performance to all of it.
The effort to change what people are attracted to, or to shame people for not being attracted to a certain thing. Has it gone too far? Probably, but I think that's why it took off initially and why it grew so quickly.

I obviously have my own personal experience about this, and so I very obviously know that it's not just what's inside that counts. Normal everyday people will make assumptions about you based on the way that you look. And I don't think it's a morally wrong thing to acknowledge that it happens, nor do I think it's a morally righteous thing to pretend like it doesn't.

I've been thinking on this for a while, and was inspired to ask about it while reading through the blackpill thread. I don't intend to actually look for a relationship for a while; it's been six months since the breakup, and my ex and I didn't agree to no-contact until two days ago, so I still have a long healing process to get through. But I have a lot of... dread? around not having a life partner forever, with the key factor being not having a close friend like my ex was pre-relationship. If I could emotionally and financially handle all life matters on my own that would be beautiful, but even just thinking about getting to the place I want to be financially while still maintaining a certain lifestyle is anxiety-inducing on its own. So again, even as I do not actively prepare to download any app and put myself out there, I'd like to take some notes as someone who has never used an app and whose previous relationships were by chance (classmates while in school, ex was from MMO).

For starters: I'm a cis woman, early 30s, and identify as lesbian, demisexual, demiromantic. I don't know where I am on the scale of conventional attractiveness. I'm extremely short and skinny. I've never really gone through the initial "dating" process (I knew my exes before getting in a relationship with them so we kind of jumped into being exclusive/"official").

The demi- bits mean a lot to me. I feel it makes sense to just seek spaces for activities that I enjoy and go on from there, but I feel like it's a difficult numbers game because statistically most people will be straight, right? And I don't think I exude any non-straight energy either, if that's even a thing. So this brings me to why I feel I inevitably will need to use dating apps - I fear the environment, I have never applied makeup on myself and couldn't tell you the difference between mascara and eyeliner without Googling, and the blackpill thread is filled with commentary on how these apps really cultivate a landscape with a focus on appearance. But simply being not-straight makes me feel I have to use an app for the basic filter of gender preference.

I don't see myself going to a gay bar (prefer not to drink). I can see some queer-friendly dating-focused events in my area that sound okay but I fear my issues with social performance will keep me away (I can perform for one person but the few events I see right now are speed-dating or casual mixers). Also some of them are hosted at wineries/pubs and I get that alcohol is normal, but I really don't like the vibe of bars themselves (too loud).

I also don't know if there are... things to "know" when trying to date as a lesbian? Like when folks talk about being masc/femme, those things don't really mean anything to me - I have male-dominated hobbies and don't wear feminine clothing, but to say that any bit of me says "masculine" in any way just doesn't seem right. I also honest to god do not know what expectations are regarding trans women. I can't write them off as I've never dated or been romantically interested in a trans woman, but I do fear that the... equipment, for lack of better phrase... might matter to me, and I don't want to offend too late? Is it transphobic to say I'd prefer to date cis women?

Apologies as I realize that this is definitely becoming more of a ramble on "how date, I've never dated strangers" and less on advice for use of dating apps specifically. But at the end of the day, yes, I feel that I will need to use dating apps but fear the experiences that I read about from using them.

I've been seeing this girl that I met on hinge for about a month and a half or so. We've hung out a couple times a week during this period, had deep conversations, gotten to know each other better, had sex, etc etc. However, I ultimately realized I wasn't feeling it, and tonight, I went to her place and told her. I was a bit nervous as I am pretty new to dating dating, and I wasn't sure how she'd take it. (My only relationship was for three years in college with someone I met through school, so I've never really gone on "dates" before, if that makes sense). She said she was a bit disappointed and surprised by this since it was going well, but she was ultimately cool about it. I stayed for a bit, and we talked about what online dating is like.

She said that she appreciated me coming over to tell her this, because I was the only guy that she's seen for about this long that didn't ghost her. I actually didn't believe her at first. But, I talked to my friends, and it sounds like this is just an accepted thing that happens with online dating?

Maybe I'm naive, but it feels strange. When you bump into a stranger on the sidewalk, you say "sorry" - but if you've been seeing someone multiple times a week for a month and been intimate with each other, you just stop texting them back? It feels like not giving someone the common courtesy of even just a text message letting them know you're not interested is almost like not seeing them as a person, even less so than the stranger you bumped into on the sidewalk who you acknowledged.

Maybe I'm just new to this, but online dating feels a bit broken. Is ghosting really as common as people seem to say it is? Am I overreacting and making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is? I'm in the bay area, is this a localized phenomenon? I'm not sure. In either case, I think I'm done touching dating apps for a while. I've met a handful of cool people through them and had my fun, but it's just exhausting. I'd rather let something happen naturally.

I guess this post is more of a rant than anything, but maybe some others with more experience than I have some useful insight to share.

I've thought about this off and on for like a year.

It, as far as I know, seems well documented that populations are struggling with dating and marriages, especially in the younger generations. A lot of people attribute it to things like finances, working hours, cost of living, etc, but also the abysmal online dating circus. People don't seem to go out with the intention of meeting people as much, and so most turn to apps like Tinder, Bumble, and Hinge. But with these apps basically monopolized by the Match group, and none of the parent companies have an actual incentive to get people off the app, it seems like a ripe opportunity for governments everywhere to try and fill in the gap.

As they don't have the investor profit motive, but they do have a very strong motive for people to get together, have relationships, marriages, eventually babies. And this is just a baseless claim on my part, but I imagine it could be stimulating to local economies as more people go on dates. I know at least my ass doesn't go anywhere really when I'm single.

Recently had a conversation with a good friend about dating, and it had me curious about how everyone on Tildes approaches dating. Tell me a bit about how you date! Here's a few prompts/thoughts I'm curious about:

• How long does it take for you to know if you're attracted to someone (sexually, romantically, emotionally, shared interests, etc)?
• What do you like to do when you date and does it change depending on how many dates you've been on or how well you know the person?
• Once you start dating someone, how long does it take you to understand whether you want to date the person long term or whether it's not going to work out?
• Do you only date people you meet in real life or do you use dating apps? How do you approach going from stranger to dating them?
• What's most important in deciding whether you want to date someone? Do they need to have an interest in activities you enjoy, shared values, emotional intelligence, a certain kind of humor, or something else?
• Is there something you don't understand about dating and want to share your frustration?

Seeking recommendations for Ethical Non-Monogamy (ENM) apps for a bi gal like myself for cute dates with other women only?

So far most of what I've tried have been very limited/one way interactions (unsure if people have forgotten how to ask questions!?). ONLY SEEKING FOR SELF, NO UNICORNS/NOT A UNICORN. Sorry just had to make that clear....

Any recommendations would be appreciated! PS am Au based not USA...

I've started to date a lovely woman, and she's now allowed me to know that she has Dissociative Identity Disorder. I've done my best to read and watch information about the 'disorder' but I was wondering if anyone has had any experiences that might they're willing to share.

I know that everyone is different, and there's no set way anyone who has it acts or behaves.

Tale as old as time, I suppose. Straight man doesn't understand women. I'm hoping this site will provide a healthy place to discuss my feelings and get wholesome input from others without it turning into a pity party or cesspool.

I didn't have any interest in dating until after I'd graduated college. Unfortunately, I immediately moved to an area of the country notorious for its unfavorable gender ratio. There are many more men than women here which means I'm starting on hard mode. I do at least have some traits which make things easier than for most. I am high earning, reasonably fit (not super cut but I work out most days), tall and I believe mentally healthy. However I can tell that my approach doesn't really catch with most people.

I've had limited success out here. Some of my failures are mine to own. Getting started from nothing means I'm venturing into the unknown. I'm a naturally anxious person and never felt any intuition in social situations. Thankfully I've managed to figure out a way of being that jives with some people and learned the hard way the things I do that don't jive so well. But dating seems to have its own social rules - and they're harder to learn due to all of the misinformation.

To sort out a lot of the misinformation I look to the people I see with the greatest degree of success. The older couples that are clearly deeply happy. My parents do pretty well in that regard. They've been married for 30-ish years with nothing more than a short argument between them. Or maybe I'll talk with an older co-worker who loves his wife the same way he did decades ago. People say that all happy families are the same, and unhappy families each broken in their own way. It's clear that there are some things in common with the happy couples - a universal recipe for happiness and success.

• Forgiveness
• Consistent effort
• Flexibility
• Similar values

I try to take these virtues with me when dating.

Of course, mutual attraction is a black box and also plays an important role. I've tried dating women that are just outside of what I would consider attractive. I think it's important to know what truly is important to me. But I found that things did not feel right and I can't compromise in that way. I'm not looking for a 10. But if I know they are not attractive to me it won't work.

In the normal world (outside of online dating) I think the odds of a random person being instantly notably attractive are very low. Someone needs to be sufficiently aesthetically attractive, but also have the right mind and soul. Without the latter two I have no interest. So for me when I've met a nice woman from a dating app the process of learning more about this person begins - and it can take a while to truly get to know someone. But I draw on the virtue of effort and am more than willing to make that an active process as we get closer.

There are actually some people out there that this all seems to align with. I think it's mostly a matter of time before I find the right person - so I'm not entirely discouraged. But the vast majority of women I meet seem to have the same feedback. They don't feel a connection - maybe that translates to "they're not attracted enough to me", maybe it's something else. But what I call a "connection" is something that can't be absolutely determined after one date.

Given my profile pictures are representative of my appearance, I don't think they're all saying I'm aesthetically unattractive to them. Sure, some might decide after meeting me that they aren't as attracted in person. I experience that for myself some of the time. But I suspect that much of the time this is more of a mismatched approach. I really want to know either how better to find my kind of person, or what ways I can adapt to be flexible for the women I'm dating.

Edit: Thank you everyone for your thoughts!

A lot of people said a lot of things, many of which sounds right to me but only a few I think are applicable as next steps.

1. My own reflection leads me to believe that being more present and less analytical will make dates more enjoyable and productive for both people.
2. Keeping a very long term goal in mind cripples the dynamic of early dating. It requires future prediction abilities beyond what a human can do.
3. I don't know if I can be the "fun guy" all the time but I can definitely increase the amount of fun.

I wrote up a journal entry about what I wrote here and everyone's responses. I'll bring up my thoughts with my therapist later. Maybe this is weird but I threw the journal entry into ChatGPT. If nothing else it was positive and cheerful, which is helpful. But I was able to drill down on a few different things and got answers that sound reasonable. This is surely a common enough topic that it's got good training data for it.

I'd also like to say, for whoever reads my comments, that much of what I wrote is more about following a thought as far as it will go more so than putting my internal constitution into writing. I'm here to be as malleable as I need to be.

I mentioned offhand in our introduction thread that I've never dated -- I wanted to hear people's experiences, since chatter online is very dominated by the male experience of mostly looking for casual hookups and struggling to get matches. I particularly want to hear from people who did not go in wanting a casual relationship

Some additional discussion questions: Did it go well or poorly? Did you run into mismatches in expectations? Did you end up in an unsafe situtation? How many people did you explore before you found someone long term?

Age for context would also be helpful, since I know many of you skew older.

I'm finally ready to sacrifice my self esteem and faith in humanity at the altar of dating apps. My question for those of you with more experience with them is this - do different apps attract noticeably different pools of users? What have you noticed comparing the populations on different apps? Which wound up working best for you, if any of them did?

Any that had particular features that bothered you? I've been using Hinge for like a day and already discovered they have a separate queue for your best matches that they demand a premium currency to message :/

Occasionally people here get into discussions about social relationships, namely dating, and what quickly comes up is how both of those seem to be less common and harder to 'get'. This more frequently happens in overtly dating and relationship subreddits and similar dedicated spaces, albeit, of course, this also pops up in more general communities, alongside any community where social relationships are an important topic, like communities about social ideologies like feminism or the manosphere or about genders because heterosexuality.

One thing I often find is missing is some historical context. A lot of talk about loneliness and lack of platonic or romantic relationships is basically limited to the recent past, if it even talks about the past at all. It seems like it would be helpful to look at what relationships and dating were like 10, 20, 30 years ago when it comes to talking about the problems or just general state of both today. So do you know of good sources of information concerning relationships in the past? If so, then why do you think they don't pop up in discussions about dating?