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What's a culture shock that you experienced?
Could be from a place you visited or moved to. Could be from a community or group you joined.
Whatever it was, there was something new or unfamiliar to you, and you had to wrap your head around that something that you weren't used to.
What was the culture shock, how did you respond to it, and how do you feel about it now?
Referring to people present in the room as he/she.
I know that sounds crazy, but let me explain. Where I'm from, France, it's considered very impolite to refer to somebody present in the room as he or she. I remember being corrected very often about this as a kid at school or at home that it got engraved in my habit.
If somebody is present in the room, you need to refer to them as the way you address them. For example, if I'm talking to you with Phillipe Dubois present in the conversation, and I'm talking about him, I should use "Phillipe" if I'm formal with him, or "Mr. Dubois", such as "Oh yeah, Phillipe was just telling me about this." If I were to say "Oh yeah, he was just telling me about this" as a kid, I would have quickly been corrected with by an adult with a "He, is Phillipe!" He or she is reserved for people who are not present.
When I moved abroad (the US, and now Germany), I realized that this was an utterly French-only thing. People will refer to people in the room as he/she left and right. At first, I remember thinking "wow... this guy/lady is so rude..." After a while, I recognized it was totally accepted :D .
Side note: Using he/she while the person is present in France can be used to be purposefully rude towards them. I understand こいつ (koitsu) to be similar in japanese, which they usually translate in english as "this guy"
This is common in the UK as well. I remember being told off by my parents regularly for using "he" or "she" about someone in the room - they'd say something like "and who's 'she', the cat's mother?".
Although I think it was already dying out as a cultural norm by the time we were kids, and wasn't very strictly enforced. I can't imagine many people follow the rule today - I'm sure I don't!
Ditto here—not sure if it’s regional but that very cat’s-mother quote is exactly what I’d be told as a child in Yorkshire! How interesting that this exists in both the U.K. and France but not our neighbours; I’d really love to know the history here.
So interesting! Do you know, is this a France-french thing (and are there regional differences), or have you seen it in other French cultures? I'll have to ask my french colleagues whether quebec has a similar tendency.
/u/Jonz was saying above, apparently it used to be a thing in the UK as well. I didn't know that.
I think it's overall france, for the following reason: my parents both come from a region at the total opposite of where I was born and raised, and I was corrected both at school and at home about this. I got the culture shock when I moved abroad for the first time in the US. Many years later, I moved to Germany where it is the same as the US regarding this (i.e. he/she can be used to refer to people present in the room). I mentionned this to a French colleague, and Germany was her first and only time living outside of France, and she told me she experienced the same culture shock when moving here. Her family was from another region, and she was born and raised on the opposite side of France. Both of us are covering east/west/north/south of France. So this leads me to believe that it's not geographical.
Now, I would concede that we both come from CSP+ families, which is French for "upper middle class." So it might be correlated to social classes, but I could argue that I was one of the few children of CSP+ at the schools I attended before university, and teachers were still correcting us all.
Well, it's good to know I probably offended more than a few people back when I visited France for a short while, though my medeocre accent probably gave me some grace :)
Work's been too busy for me to remember to ask around about Quebec practices, but I'll try to remember to share if I do find out!
This is fun stuff as a (very gradual) Japanese learner lol. I believe it's typically impolite to use "you" in Japanese: you name someone (with honorific suffix) when talking about or to them, unless the subject is being omitted/implied. I think the he/her equivalents are a little more accepted than second person.
Also, かのじょ (kanojo) is both she/her and "girlfriend."
Then the myriad options for first person pronouns are truly something.
Japanese has multiple equivalents of "you" (as well as most other English pronouns, including "I") and how polite or rude it is to use a specific variant varies incredibly heavily based on which word you're talking about and the context. It's truly a minefield lol
It's also much easier, grammatically, to drop pronouns like that entirely in Japanese (you mentioned this offhandedly but for those who aren't familiar with Japanese that may not be obvious). This often is the most polite/natural way to phrase a given sentence. Even in Chinese, which lacks these kinds of intense pronominal politeness norms in the modern language, overuse of pronouns when you could just drop it is a classic awkward thing you get from non-native speakers of languages like English that can't drop pronouns.
かれ is also both he/him and "boyfriend"! But I'm also just a learner for fun (maybe like almost to N5 level but I haven't taken the test or anything).
That would be so distracting for me, hearing my name all the time from across the room.
You kinda have to be Brazilian to fully grasp this, but I'm from Salvador, the most African city outside of Africa. Going to Curitiba, a Brazilian city with a strong Ukrainian and German makeup, was quite an adventure. They don't really say "good morning," etc. They talk much less overall. Which I actually kinda liked, but coming from Salvador it was an adjustment. Also, the experience of looking around and everyone was white. I felt a little isolated, and the few Black people there dressed formally and extremely well in comparison to the others. I got the impression that they dressed that way to compensate for being Black. But IDK. It was my first experience in an extremely White culture. I loved the city, the cold climate, and most people were very nice. Just different.
Also, I had no idea that cold could be "trapped". The stores had no heating and stayed cold the entire day. That may sound silly, but when you live at a place that is always between 25C and 38C (and 18C with high humidity just a few days every year), you subconsciously think that is the default, as if everything had a natural tendency to heat. Which, of course, they don't. It's just one of those things that you are used to and never think about.
Speaking of cultures within America:
"Midwest Nice" reminded me of the "Southern Hospitality" I grew up with, which was really just another flavor of "passive-aggressive asshole".
Living in Denver was what actually really shocked me, where people just don't give a fuck about each other. Like you don't really have people giving the head nod when passing, there's no small talk with cashiers or others waiting in line, no waving to people in the neighborhood when they drive by/you drive by. Definitely a lot more of a "lonelier" feel. Made me think of what I've heard of eg Scandinavian countries
But the people who were outwardly nice were more sincerely nice, and conversation with strangers that did happen felt more impactful than superficial. As a massive introvert and at-worst autistic-correlated, I really miss living in Denver lol.
As someone who's spent a substantial amount of time in the Denver area and grown up in the west I always felt like people around the area were really nice. But my personality is a bit golden retriever so maybe people think I come across a little too friendly and intense. T.T but maybe if I spend more time in the south I might find I'm actually a bit cold by comparison.
It was actually a personal shock to me as an American from the western US visiting Germany and Austria earlier this year. Like, strangers don't talk to each other AT ALL which was very strange. I loved both countries and want to visit again, but my inner golden retriever was really sad that strangers don't really socialize. Or like, even acknowledge each other really. And it's really hard to fight the urge to wave at cars while crossing the street, smiling as you pass people, or trying to find a semi Deutsch way of saying "excuse me" while trying to pass people in a crowded space. They just don't like say anything? So strange. ಠಿ_ಠಿ
Once, whilst visiting Alberta (nicknamed Canada's Texas North), I stood in line to order breakfast at a cafe, and the person behind me started talking. Just, straight into pleasantries to my back. I felt my poor little introverted heart sink, turned around with a forced smile, and conversed until I ordered and got the heck out of there. It was so awkward having to keep physically turning around to say "oh wow, you don't say, really, huh, how nice" and then turning back around to try to keep up with the line and figure out what I wanted to order and rehearse it quietly so I don't forget and make a fool of myself, making everyone else wait.
That's the other culture shock: people took their time there. It was considered perfectly normal to chatter the whole way to the front and then hold up a whole restaurant of people to chat with the clerk and then decide what you want.
At the same time, I would be considered too friendly and not efficient enough back home in Hong Kong. People would literally pass me on the sidewalk/escalator step and might give a sideways look that says "space out on your own time and get out of the dang way". I said thank you to bus drivers when I disembark and feel the stares. I was too intimidated to take a mini-bus, which requires you to shout your stop when you're close, otherwise driver blasts past without slowing. Apparently, I'm bad at taking a hint and reading the room and take what people say at face value: "let's have tea" means "I'm going to cut you off mid sentence now because I have to run".
I cannot STAND this fact about southern culture in the US. I don't mind striking up conversations. I like talking to strangers, it makes my day more interesting. I always say hi to people on the street, wave at people in my neighborhood, and exchange pleasantries in elevators. But good God when I want to just get some food on my lunch break and the person at the front of the line is just talking about the weather, or the football game or whatever, I want to just gouge my eyes out.
It's one of the things that my wife says came from growing up in NY. It wouldn't be uncommon at all up there for someone to shout "hey, you got people waiting here, let's go". It would be absolutely unheard of anywhere in the south though. No one would dare, and I definitely wouldn't either. It's a daily frustration for me though.
Yup I definitely grew up with the "come on! Some of us have places to be" crowd as well. It's an adjustment for sure.
Is tardiness generally very well tolerated in southern culture? Eg, class, meeting friends, replying to a customer, deliverables previously agreed upon for date/time.
I would say compared to the northeast, yes. Compared to a lot of places I've been internationally? Probably not. Living in southern Italy would make me lose my mind, because based on what I saw when I was there, everyone apparently uses clocks as subtle suggestions.
If you're late to a meeting in the south for most places, no one is really going to mind, they'll just shoot the shit for a few minutes. If you do it every single meeting, they might start getting annoyed.
I was a business partner with a guy I knew down here for a few years, and I had to bow out because I couldn't deal with the way he handled customers. He'd miss a call or a meeting or forget to get back to people, and it would be like "oh that's Jim though, he's cool. We go way back, not a big deal".
Even if it was true in some cases it drove me up the wall.
The struggle is real. There are a number of U.S. South-based vendors that I work with remotely, and I've learned to dread the chatter. I just want to get in, get my configurations done, and get out, but the small talk usually adds an extra 30 - 60 minutes to each call.
Perhaps I'm just too "Midwest Nice" to do anything but hint that I have another meeting or task to get to...
Fascinating on both accounts! Thanks for sharing.
Lol, I live there. My family is also from HK. It’s not that bad here, is it?
The Northeast of Calgary is my favourite quadrant; I had the best pho there recently, so good. It's so easy to find most places because of the grid system, but once it gets residential and named all bets are off. The zoo is always worth a visit as well.
Banff is gorgeous and staying at the Chateau was amazing, wish I could have spent longer there.
Downsides: Air is crazy dry, and sorry about you're real estate prices post COVID.
Dunno about the rest of Germany, but here in Bavaria we go "Entschuldigung?" When someone is in the way, and most people also say Danke after
I did hear "Entschuldigung" a few times at the end of my trip, but it was rare compared to what I'm used to. I started using it though since it felt like the most polite way to let someone know I was trying to move passed them. 🤷
Germans are definitely a little quicker to push past each other and a little slower to say excuse me in my experience, but being polite and saying it more often yourself isn't gonna hurt you. And also my experience is in Berlin, to be fair, where afaik people are considered rude compared to the rest of Germany.
I am not a very extraverted person at all by US standards, but this also has bothered me living here in Germany (and I am looking forward to the culture shift when I move back to the US Midwest in a couple months). There are some limited contexts where I've had a stranger strike up a conversation with me -- waiting for the bus is good if your German is good and the others waiting are old people, especially if you can all meckern about the bus being late. Once I was wearing a shirt with something written on it and a guy on the bus asked me if he could read it, and that started a nice little conversation. Had a great convo with the Turkish barber at my last haircut. But the fact that little friendly exchanges with a stranger when you have a small interaction are so not the norm definitely still weighs on me a little.
The key to get a random German's conversation flowing is to find something you can mutually complain about, or to give them something to lecture you about. Germans love to complain and they absolutely love to lecture, especially if they're doing their job from a position with some authority and you're at their mercy. The lecture I got from my pharmacist when I filled my prescription on the last day it was valid rather than sooner! The complaining is usually more fun and mutual, in my opinion.
I grew up in VA (arguably more diet South), but lived in Colorado for most of my 20s. The girl I dated while I was out there was always so annoyed at me saying hi to everyone. I can't help it, Megan!
Meegan, your jacket! "I'm over it!"
lol that's hilarious
I don't know that southern hospitality is necessarily passive aggressive asshole. I think a lot of people in the south genuinely are very nice and interested in their neighbors.
They can also be very judgemental, but that's true anywhere.
I grew up in New York and moved to the south as a teenager, and I haven't seen a major difference in how judgemental, mean, racist, or close minded the sort of stereotypical salt of the earth types with thick accents from both areas are.
The major difference to me is that the typical guy like that from New York is a lot louder about it. Most of the good ol boys from the south I've been around will be polite to strangers, call them ma'am/sir, and not instigate conflict. The guys like that from New York... Not so much.
Even a lot of my friends that still live in NY will say stuff in public to random strangers where I'm like "what the fuck is wrong with you? Someone is going to actually pull out a gun and kill you one day".
Both groups can and do strike up conversations with strangers all the time though, and constantly make little "five minute friends" from waiting in line or whatever.
I haven't spent much time on the west coast so maybe it's not quite like that there.
I once stayed at an Airbnb in the USA, just a room in someone's house. We spent new year's eve there and it was very cold and rainy outside, so we decided to stay in. The lovely lady who lived there had a lovely cat who needed to be fed. She had a party that night and asked us if we would mind terribly feeding the cat. Of course we would, it was a few seconds of our time.
The next day we woke up to find a thank you note, which I thought was a really nice gesture, but it included some money. A decent amount, at least for us. It felt strange to me. Very transactional. In my country nobody would do that, you just do favours for people. I asked my husband if we should refuse to take it, but he said it might have offended her. I did enjoy that money, not gonna lie, ha ha.
You might be surprised at how expensive a cat sitter can be in the USA. You might have only earned market rate!
I think money don't have to be transactional, though. When I patronize local businesses that I love, I sometimes give outrageous tips -- I've hit 100% or more a few times, especially around the holidays, at businesses that routinely give me free beers and where the owners make good chat. It's just my way of saying thank you since I have a decent paying job.
I think the money was mainly in respect to you paying to be there, and the concept of making a guest paying to be there do something that is technically a job of some kind means they really wanted to make sure you were compensated, else you may leave a bad review/message AirBnB the company. That might be a bit of a dramatic take, but it's the undertone I would feel if I owned an AirBnB and asked a guest to do something for me.
I'm sure it was sincere and not transactional at all, that it was an acknowledgement that you went very far out of your way, and that your time as a visitor is very valuable, and in your shoes, they would have felt slightly put upon. In North America, it's normal for companies to be paying extra for people to work during weekends and major holidays, and extra extra if it disrupts an existing scheduled time off.
As a fellow cat owner in North America, your help would have saved my holiday and I could feel my breathing get easier as I processed not having to find and pay for a last minute holiday sittier.
Very good points, it's just that in my country things are different. It was a culture shock for us and everyone in my family was shocked when I told them. I guess we just have a different relationship with money.
That's true, I can imagine having a monetary exchange at all implies a very different kind of relationship, and can feel off putting, sort of like, "oh, I thought we were friends, but now I see you only think of me this way :( "
I had a similar experience when I moved into Atlantic Canada. A neighbour has taught us how to go mackerel fishing, gave us metal fishing lures and helped us get all set up and gave us extra fish. I sent him a nice card and a small bit of cash, and he came back and felt almost insulted. In the end he accepted a small non monetary gift after much pushing.
If it was your friend you were doing a favor for, yeah, it would be weird in the US to leave you money.
You weren't this lady's friend though. You were her customer, and she asked you to do work for her. It was already transactional, since you're already paying her to stay at her house.
I understand completely why she did it. She felt that because of her own poor planning, she had to impose herself to ask a paying customer to do something for her. She would have felt guilty if she didn't compensate you, because in her mind she thought you might have felt a little put on by her asking you to do free work for her. The money is a way for her to acknowledge that she imposed a little by asking you, and to make up for it.
Totally within the realm of normalcy, at least in the US.
Eh, yeah it would be a little strange if a friend gave me money for something like that. I've taken friends out to dinner as a thank you for stuff, but generally they just know that I'd do the same for them if they ask, so we don't worry about balancing anything out.
I think it's funny that you're telling me all the reasons why I shouldn't have been shocked, when the culture you think is normal is your own. My culture is different. I'm not saying she had no reason to do it, or that she was wrong to do it, I'm saying no one where I live would do it and it was surprising.
Maybe the explanations you're getting are to make sure that you don't think the wider culture is transactional, as if everyone pays or expects compensation for acts that would otherwise be considered favors. It's more down to the context of an existing business relationship, like AirBnB customer-host, especially one where the two parties aren't handling things face-to-face with a chance to do the polite "insist"/"decline" dance that I've seen around the world which often ends with good will instead of money.
"Transactional" has some fairly negative connotations and implies a cold - even selfish - relationships, especially when put up alongside "we just do each other favors" which implies [superior] warm genuine connections, which might add to the effort people are putting in here specifically.
Transactional definitely does have negative connotations, but I think it's also important to distinguish between saying "US culture is transactional" and saying "US attitudes to money would be read as transactional in many other cultures" - I think the latter is more true than a lot of people raised in the US would realise, not a difference of underlying values but a difference in connotation, but the prevalence of US media and cultural exports makes those details harder to spot from the inside than they otherwise might be.
I think that's an uncharitable way to interpret my comment. I never said my culture was superior. It can easily turn into a bad thing doing things for people without return. Some people definitely take advantage of that.
Where the big difference lies I think is in our relationship with money. Our tip culture for instance is vastly different. And most people here don't have extra money they can give to other people.
Let me give you another example. On the same trip we later went to Disney world. We didn't stay at a Disney hotel, because it was cheaper not to. We heard that people staying at Disney world get a bracelet they could use for entering parks and paying for anything inside the parks. Information everywhere said that if you stayed elsewhere you could just buy the bracelet. But we wanted to know if it was necessary, if you needed to buy it in order to enter the parks. Advice online said you should buy it or that it wasn't technically necessary, there was a way to enter the parks for free, but why wouldn't you buy it, it's just 10 bucks. We ended up not buying, because we didn't need it, and most people in my country would have done the same.
I just moved from one of the biggest cities in the UK to a small city in Texas three months ago. The biggest culture shock was definitely trying (and failing) to walk to places.
The pavement (sidewalk) would be fine to start with, so you begin heading in a direction, then it suddenly disappears at a seemingly random point. So then it's time to backtrack and find another route, sometimes one of the backstreets has sidewalk, sometimes they don't, sometimes it randomly disappears again... I managed to find a route to the H.E.B. eventually but it requires crossing to the other side of the main road and then back again, and walking through some car parks.
And speaking of crossing roads - doing that is terrifying here. It's a crossing point with a walk sign and everything but unlike the UK, cars are still allowed to turn while the walk sign is on - gave me a heart attack the first time I was walking across and a car crossed it in front of me. It doesn't help that the roads are enormous, so it feels like you're on that crosswalk forever, and the cars are so big I feel like they can't see me.
I'm sure I'll get used to it eventually, but that's one thing I really hate here. I'm not surprised I never see anyone else walking anywhere.
Yeah, even in the bigger* cities in Texas it's difficult to walk places. The only time I ever really walked regularly was in college at UT and that's only because the area around UT is pretty small. Even downtown Austin/Dallas are both difficult to walk around (though public transport is like, usable, if you really wanted).
I grew up in eastern Washington state, in a small town (by national standards; it was quite large compared to its neighbors and county). It was racially-diverse compared to its neighbors, but that wasn't a very big hurdle.
My then-girlfriend, now-wife is Chinese American, 4th or 5th generation depending on which side of the family you trace. She grew up in the suburbs of southern California, considerably less rural and significantly more ethnically-diverse than my hometown. Like, her graduating class from high school was several times larger, in number of kids, than my entire high school.
At one point early in our relationship, she ended up taking a summer job in northern Idaho. Growing up in that general area, I knew the history of the region (Aryan Nation compounds, that sort of thing) and told her what to look out for, and taught her some basic self-defense. She told me stories of her time there, where she "stopped an Albertson's cold" by simply being the Asian person present in the store. She turned heads wherever she went by simply existing.
I had my own, quasi-similar moment when we later went to an Asian market in SoCal together. I was one of only a handful of white people there; I wasn't the only one, but there weren't many. I got some funny looks from folks throughout the store, particularly because I'm very pale - and being that pale in SoCal, I definitely stand out.
What occurred to me was that there was a key difference between my wife's experience in northern Idaho, and my experience in southern California. At no point did I feel threatened. I felt uncomfortable, sure, but I never felt in danger. She, on the other hand, felt uncomfortable and under threat when she stepped foot into that Albertson's.
This was one of the many steps I took towards being (or at least trying to be) anti-racist. No one deserves to feel threatened just for existing in a given space. You don't necessarily have the "right" to feel comfortable everywhere - not every space is made for you - but you don't deserve to feel like you'll be attacked for just being somewhere.
I am a very average looking white guy, and went to a Thai grocery store in San Jose, California because I was trying to pick up some ingredients for dinner. I am standing there, one of maybe three white people in the store, looking at the aisle of fish sauce, thinking to myself “I did not know there were this many brands of fish sauce”. I look up a couple on my phone, and then grab one. As I go to put the other one I had back, this older Asian woman whose height is maybe up to my shoulder comes up, says “no no”, and gestures for me to put the one I had grabbed back, and take a different one from further down the aisle. I don’t even remember if she said anything else, but it was clear I looked helpless and was making a rookie mistake.
I try to pay it forward by always saying yes when anyone asks if I can grab them something off the top shelf.
Tri-Cities?
I honestly have so many little culture shocks I could share, especially coming from an American visiting Europe and East Asia. I think probably my favorite one I'd like to share is experiencing South Korean restaurant culture when I visited in 2023. Traditional South Korean meals are meant to be shared. There's often a few main dishes with a plethora of sides and you're meant to just take small samples and share with friends or family. This extends to a lot of restaurants too, with options often meant for a group of people to share with portion sizes to match. This can make it difficult for solo travelers (like myself) since restaurants will either turn you away or require you order multiple portions of food. The first few days I was in Seoul, I struggled to find places to eat by myself as the big restaurants that would show up on the maps apps would often turn away solo eaters. However, I quickly discovered plenty of smaller, family run restaurants that were more than happy to take my business. These places were so cozy and the food was great, it truly felt like stepping into someone's home and enjoying their food.
I've heard that this is why Korean videos of people eating are popular, to watch while solo eating?
I think that's part of the changing culture actually, tied to the maps app having filters for solo friendly restaurants. People are becoming increasingly isolated in modern times so mukbang videos give you some company.
When I immigrated from the US to rural Australia back in 2012 (having never before traveled outside North and Central America), I think my biggest shock was the difference in the food culture: Walking into bakeries and not recognizing a single product on the shelves, not being able to find a lot of my staples (for example, no wholegrain pasta, and I even had to grow my own black beans! Only recently have these become commonplace), many of my American recipes failing because the measurements are different, thinking "potato cakes" sounded disgusting, going to so-called "American" diners that just taste like Australian food, etc. For the most part, American and Australian culture are extremely similar, and I was completely prepared for how little overlap there would be.
There were also a lot of fun dialect differences to work through, like when my neighbor talked about having "potatoes for tea" (potatoes for dinner) or when a someone told me I needed a "servo" to fill a bike tire (I thought he was talking about a servo motor and I was very confused).
But my favorite dialect confusion: There was a drought my first few years here, and one of my coworkers was telling me that the water level had gotten so low that they found a boy at the bottom of one of the local lakes. I was completely shocked — they found a boy? I asked her if they called the police, and she was confused; why would they call the police about a boy in a lake? It was several minutes of me increasingly freaking out and her wondering why I was making such a big deal about it until we realized that we pronounce "buoy" differently.
This is something that's recently popped on my radar. America has a bunch of Americanized "foreign" foods, namely Chinese food and Mexican food, so it makes sense other countries would have their own very different takes on American cuisine.
Were there any particularly notable dishes at the Australian restaurant?
American restaurants are reasonably common here. Even my local town of ~2,800 used to have one, which sadly closed during the pandemic. They're generally dressed up in a 50s retro diner style, but occasionally one gets a bit creative and goes for something like Waffle House style. Despite the kitsch, every one I've seen has been pretty foodie and upscale — and some are downright pretentious.
All the ones I've been to sell American-looking food (for example, fluffy pancakes, milkshakes, apple pie, etc., which all somehow still taste entirely Australian), Mexican-looking food (quesadillas seem to particularly popular in experience though, again, they taste Australian), plus some more unusual items that are more American-inspired than anything, like this macaroni and cheese ball or these cheeseburger springrolls. You'll also see a lot of classic Australian food, like hand pies, that are presented in an American style; maybe they'll be dressed up with pickles or jalapenos, for example. Sometimes you see blooming onions show up — which particularly tickles me because that's an Outback Steakhouse thing.
I've enjoyed the food from every American diner I've visited, but they definitely don't scratch my itch for genuine American food (particularly the Southern food I grew up with). I just have to cook that myself. American restaurants are really just a fun play on the standard Australian fare.
But this is pretty typical. Ultimately, a restaurant has to serve the tastes of the locals who frequent it, and Americans and Australians just don't have the same tastes. I had the same experience doing study abroad in rural Costa Rica; I went to Mexican restaurants, Italian restaurants restaurants, etc., and they all still tasted like Costa Rican food.
Ultimately, people like their food to look exotic but taste familiar.
I'd like to try Australianized American food. I'd even settle for Americanized Austrialianized American.
But even American-style barbecue has so many variations!
When I met my ex girlfriend for the first time, when saying bye, I went to kiss her on the cheek. She's Chinese, I'm Latin. It turns out that this is not how to say goodbye to people universally.
(I'm Hong Konger) I physically recoiled reading your comment in a "ugh what are you doing?" way :) does the reverse culture shock exist, where people saying goodbye would be confused why we couldn't lean in for cheek kiss?
I think it would be quickly understood that it's not a thing another culture would do. If a local, you might be perceived as... stand-offish, I suppose, if you didn't kiss. Rejecting a kiss would probably be perceived as intentionally keeping your distance, maybe almost rude, or at the very least strange. If my wife (who is also not Latin) were to reject kisses from my aunties and cousins, that would carry real social costs, for example.
It's heavily age and gender coded. You would absolutely have to kiss your aunties, for example, that's not optional. Males would kiss female friends of within a certain level of social distance, and female friends kiss each other. Male friends do not. I got kissed on the cheek in France by the father of the groom for a friend's wedding, which gave me a taste of my own culture shock medicine!
And yes, her reaction wasn't cute at all, she was legitimately distressed. I probably could've logicked my way into guessing that most cultures aren't as physically close as ours, but you make these unconscious assumptions sometimes. I learned my lesson, anyway!
It's the same in my country, maybe even more extreme. For example, I'm a teacher and every day when I get to work I have to greet every other teacher in the staff room with a kiss, including my bosses. One year there was a new Canadian teacher. I didn't know, so I introduced myself and kissed him. He was so uncomfortable! Poor thing, I later had to remember not to kiss him. Btw, it's not really a kiss, it's bumping cheeks basically.
Hahaha, I'm sure he probably got used to it! It's difficult when you go to countries with different personal space bubbles than yours, and having to adapt to that.
Yeah, same. When I say kiss, it's that cheek touching action and blowing a kiss in the air. Although with close family members (mom, aunties), it can be an actual kiss on the cheek if, like, they haven't seen you for a while.
I'm a Northern Californian and although I am aware that some cultures, both foreign and American subculture (e.g. Hollywood, certain types of wealthy people), do the greeting kiss and/or the air kiss, but it's always a surprise to me when someone does it. I'm a hand shaker.
And I'm also a woman. I used to notice some people (usually men) found it unusual when a woman puts her hand forward for a handshake, but not so much anymore.
Yup, same experience from the opposite world. Women offering their hands short-circuited my brain for a second before I could recover and proceed as normal. Having moved out of Latin America, my brain doesn't freak out anymore, but I think it's always going to feel a bit strange for me.
Aha, this reminds me of when I (from canada) was younger and staying briefly in france, I just couldn't get the whole cheek kiss/bise thing. I was invited to a little party and trying to fit in, and at some point someone explained to me noo you dont lean in like that, that's what little kids do! (Or something to that effect). I gave up, decided I was happy to resign myself to not understanding this greeting.
You think that’s bad? I grew up in Easter Europe until my teenage years. The cheek kiss is standard. The bad part is that when you are a small kid some old relatives (think grandmothers, old aunts, etc) will sometimes kiss you on the lips! Ewwwww. Not like a full on kiss, just the same as you describe, but lips instead of cheek. I hated that as a kid.
Oh, interesting, one of my elderly relatives would do the little kiss on lips to me when i was a young child. Her heritage was eastern european, and even a couple generations removed I wonder if that's how it was passed down. No one on other sides of my family did.
For what it’s worth, it was indeed the most elderly of relatives who did that. My mom or other relatives her age did not do that. None of the men did. The cheek was definitely the default and far more common option.
Belgian (bordering France) here, neither do we completely.
Some people go for 1 cheek kiss, some for 2, and a few even go for 3. Also, since the person with the more kisses "wins", all you can do is wait for them leaning again for another kiss and accept it. Like, my mom is 1, her companion is 3, my grandma is 2 (but only 1 with children)...
Note to self, don't move to Belgium! This sounds very stressful, at least to a foreigner like me :'D
La bise and its confusing number is precisely what launched the career of humorist Paul Taylor with this sketch. Fear not, it's confusing for everyone !
Ahaha, that 'pretend to be sick' solution takes on a whole new meaning after covid!
You don't? Hmmmm okay yeah I don't understand either
American things (mostly white people)
(Some) people wear their shoes inside. This one still feels psychopathic.
Americans heat water with the microwave. They use the microwave to make tea or ramen.
Circumcision. It being common to mutilate baby's genitals is utterly bizarre. Especially when the reasons are some combination of "hygiene" (the rest of the world and human existence seems to get on with it fine), not wanting people to masturbate (wtf), and aesthetics (of your child's dick?).
Homecooked meals have a tendency to be a clean split between protein, vegetables, and carbs.
People dress very poorly outside
The proper knife and fork etiquette is to cut your food and then swap hands for some reason
Even though knife and fork are the utensils of choice, most people do not seem particularly to have learned or thought much about how to use them
Sweet breakfast
Islamic countries (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia)
People don't date - you go straight to marriage.
There are no urinals. Only stalls. It's customary to only pee sitting down.
It's customary to use like a water pot thing instead of toilet paper.
Mainland China
Spitting
People drink hot water when it's hot
All the subways have (pointless) metal detectors
Quite literally everything is on an app.
People still don't quite queue for the subway
Shockingly, they convinced drivers not to honk in the last 5 years or so
Lol, maybe if you're blind! I used to teach workshops at a University there and initially put my foot in it when trying to identify one of the students by calling her "Kashif"s girlfriend". The number of awkward looks and clarifications was overhwhelming - and well awkward. But the number of those students who were just suddenly married to these women 2-4 years later was hilarious. There is a healthy dating culture, just a very on the DL one.
This seems to vary by house as much as by person. General rule of thumb I see is remove shoes when the weather is bad to avoid tracking in mud, but if the weather is fine? It's a crapshoot. Some people seem to find bare feet or socks less hygienic, others are fine either way... It's hard to predict unless you ask or the host says something. Though come to think of it, I don't think I've entered a house with a firm no-shoe rule...
I think this one has been discussed on Tildes at some point before? My own take is that it's not an etiquette thing, it's just easier to use my dominant for finer tasks. I can cut more neatly with my dominant hand, and I'll be using the fork more than the knife (a lot of meals don't even need knives), so it's instinctive to hold that one.
Though I'm curious by what you mean about not learning how to use knives and forks. And also by "people dress very poorly outside". Do you mean they don't dress suitably for the weather? Or that people go for really low-effort clothing with minimal care to our appearances...? (Which, both are fair criticisms. The fact I and so many others have seen joggers in t-shirts and shorts when there's snow on the ground...)
Considering I grew up with 100% no shoe rules (like, you'd get assaulted if wore shoes inside level enforcement), that is very strange.
It's not just convenience, it's formally encoded as the "American" version of knife and fork etiquette. The European etiquette is for the fork to be in the non-dominant hand, and you just deal with it. Just seems like a lot of work to have to swap over constantly.
In general most people I've seen just kinda use a fork and knife however they can. I've seen people grip them like screwdrivers. Seems a little barbarous, but it's mainly different compared to most of western europe.
This one. My own opinion and all that, but going out in sweatpants is disgusting.
I find this baffling as well - I tend to try and present the best version of myself to others. When people dress like slobs it makes me wonder why they don't care more about their appearance.
The best version of myself is unrelated to the material of my pants. If folks want to dress up that's great for them, but spending time judging people for wearing sweats as disgusting or slobs tells me way more about someone's "best self" than their attire.
There's a difference between "I dress like a slob" and "I dress down".
Edit: To be explicitly clear - if you regularly go out looking stained, dirty, and/or unkempt, it means that I'm going to think something is going on which means you care less about how you're presenting yourself. Whatever that situation may be, my response is going to be concern.
Edit Edit: Also I just have a general distaste for sweatpants (both wearing and appearance on others) but that's just like my opinion man.
It sounds like you are grouping sweatpants and "stained, dirty and/or unkempt" which are two different things but both are "slob."
You're saying your response is "concern" but I'll be honest it doesn't read as "concerned" especially in response to the person saying a type of clothing is "disgusting" and that you have a distaste for sweatpants.
Leaving aside the reasons someone's stuff may be stained or dirty (stopping at the store after work, is homeless, kids threw up on the last clean shirt and you still have to have dinner for tonight, whatever) wearing casual clothes also happens for a lot of reasons like, it's comfortable, it doesn't irritate the surgical scar, it's warm, it's what's clean, the bonnet protects my hair and I don't have hours to braid it right now (and the best one) "it's what I like."
But there's a line between "I like this and wouldn't wear that" vs "I judge people for dressing in a way I don't like." And that has left me rather stunned at its blatant-ness.
So in the spirit of this thread, I suppose my culture shock is that some actual people, not rich asshole celebs or paparazzi but actual people, think it's apparently a reasonable thing to judge other people as lesser, for the clothes they wear whether in a "why don't they want to be better" or a "that's disgusting" sort of way.
I'm shocked enough it has left me with a genuine feeling of disappointment in humans. Which is, I suppose, impressive given the year it has been.
I feel my comments have been taken in an entirely different way than I intended and that the meaning of my message is lost. It may be a consequence of my writing or presentation, but in any case the views you seem to ascribe to me are not the views I have.
I don't have much more to add except that I was brought up to care about appearances for better or for worse, especially about how I present myself, because to be seen as slapshod was to be slapshod.
You said this in reply to someone saying that sweatpants were disgusting. It appears to me from this you were agreeable to the comment and added your own thoughts.
You didn't frame it as concern for them until later and as I told you, it doesn't sound like it's actually "concern". It still doesn't. I understand caring about how you present yourself and if you wish to believe that if you are dressed like a slob you'll do poor quality work (as well as the inverse) that's fine. Do you. But you expressed this opinion about others. I expressed my opinion about that.
Perhaps you're unaware of the judgement inherent in that. Perhaps you, in agreeing with the previous poster ascribed to yourself beliefs that you don't actually hold and I was replying to both statements, not just yours. But I don't think someone's appearance is reflective of whether they're "slipshod". And what it very much sounds like is that you're externalizing the expectations placed on you onto others.
But maybe you meant to say you only judge yourself for it. In that case I apologize for the misunderstanding. But that isn't how your words sound at all.
I've been having an incredibly difficult time lately. I apologize if my comments seem heartless to you. I have an enormous amount of respect for you and appreciate your insights whenever I see you commenting, so I feel that you are owed at least some explanation by me. Thank you for working together to understand with me.
You are correct that I should have phrased myself better here. My own, personal opinion is that I hate the look, feel, and general vibe of sweatpants. I don't own any, I don't want any, and it colors my views. I fully acknowledge that. I can see why you would be upset that I agree with the comment about it being "disgusting". This does not mean I look down on and actively denigrate those who choose to wear this article of clothing. I have gone out in pajama pants and a simple hoodie before for a quick store run. It happens. My own kids wear sweatpants and a simple hoodie quite often. It seems to be quite popular right now. It is not a look I like for myself or others - I find it unflattering as general wear.
...
I can see why you would consider it from that angle. I do seem to imply that sweatpants = stained, dirty, unkempt. My own biases on that article of clothing are laid bare. Does that mean that I take action on that bias and treat those who wear these clothes differently?
Consider this instead: you know I work with children. The demographic I work with is especially disadvantaged. I have children coming to school wearing the same outfit several days in a row, they come in smelling like urine, or looking unwashed and uncared for. Do I judge that? Of course I do - if I didn't, I would be ignoring it. I make sure they can get clean clothes from our school and I do my best to speak with their parents and encourage them to do better for their children. If things continue to be neglected I am obligated to report it even. I try and avoid that and approach the situation with an open heart and mind. Many of these people are struggling just to keep a roof over their head. That is the concern I talk about.
When I see adults dressed and presenting the same way, my concern is still coming from the same place. A place of empathy and kindness - I do not sneer or look down on those people - I wonder what brought them to the point they are at when I encounter them.
...
You're absolutely right that I externalize the expectations I have of myself onto others and I challenge you to say that it isn't something you do too, because we wouldn't be debating this if not for your own expectations that people treat each other with kindness and empathy.
Again, I want to reiterate that I value you and your opinion. I hold you in high regard, and feel we have a lot in common. We expect better of society and people than we see every day - I know this because of the comments you write on topics I care about. I feel we've had a mutual respect for a while, and I genuinely don't want to imperil that over a debate about sweatpants. Thank you for engaging with me.
I really appreciate and respect you, and I want you to know that isn't something that changes over sweatpants. I am also sorry you've been having a rough time right now.
I respect that what you've been trying to express is not what I heard and I do appreciate that there is a difference between being aware of and concerned for people, especially kids, in a potentially bad situation vs judging them for it. Noticing a concern and making sure folks have access to something clean is great and comes off very differently than what felt a lot more like assuming they thought less of themselves for wearing leisurewear. And it seemed this was one opinion, flattening all parts - wearing sweats, being dirty, etc - into a judgemental place.
I do "expect" others to be kind, but I also hold myself to higher standards than others (not because I think I'm better but because I think I'm worse and thus am obviously fucking it up all the time. I'm aware that's unreasonable. Those aren't things I externalize onto others.) mostly because I give other people more grace than I give myself.
My reaction was genuinely one of shock, and I know that you and the previous poster's views got intertwined in my responses. I appreciate you replying despite that. "Disgusting" is a very strong word and I was surprised to see it said and to see someone agree with it.
We're good. I hope things get easier for you and if I can help, truly, let me know.
Maybe you can start by not calling people slobs for wearing sweats.
I wonder if this is a generational thing. When going to grade school, I was constantly scrutinized (by parents, teachers, and administrators) over what I wore and told that I had to follow standards at all times. When I went to university, the adults all disappeared and we were allowed to dress however we wanted, which was an immense freedom, as silly as that might sound. I regularly went to the cafeteria with friends wearing my most outrageous pajama pants (which were always relatively clean, at least), and no one was obviously offended. I've carried this into my adult life - I dress up for work and for presentations, where I want people to take me seriously, but if I'm running to the grocery store at 10 pm for a last minute item, why on earth should I dress up? Who am I trying to impress? I'm just trying to get some eggs. If it's clean, who cares?
I will note too that I always wear "presentable" pajamas or leisure wear - no obvious stains or rips or holes. My husband, on the other hand, has far less judgement and will wear ripped and stained (clean!) clothes in public, much to my irritation. So I think there's a sliding scale by person, but I like that people can wear what they want when out and about in the world. (And the pandemic also made me feel like I can wear more comfortable pants in my day to day life, which I view as one of the few major wins of that period - why wear tight jeans that you have to secretly unbutton after eating? To make others like you? Yeah, no.)
The left hand, surely? I have never seen anyone hold their fork in their right hand.
I’m European, right hand dominant and I hold the fork in my right hand. I find it unnatural otherwise and I don’t care if it’s “etiquette” to do the opposite.
Same, but yes you're "supposed to" hold your fork in the left hand and knife in the right. I tend to hold it in the hand most useful for the task, even to the point I may switch hands during meals.
Wait wait I'm feeling called out here lmao. I am one of those runners - anything above about -5 I'm wearing shorts. Maybe a light jacket and some thin gloves to start, but I lose them eventually. It gets hot running around and there's little I hate more than feeling hot and trapped if I'm wearing pants or heavy jackets and can't easily take them off. Also there's snow on the ground here from roughly October-April and sometimes I just don't feel like running on the treadmill. Though from -20 to -5, I do wear windproof pants, merino leggings, wool socks, windproof jacket, toque, thicker gloves, etc. Living in the cold definitely impacts your perception of temperature.
This winter has defeated me though - while we have excellent snow cover, we've had multiple rounds of freezing rain, even when the temp is well below freezing which just doesn't happen here. And just this week we had a 12 hour period overnight where the temp was above freezing so some stuff melted then promptly refroze in the morning when the temp dropped again. So there's just a stupid amount of ice everywhere and that's fucking annoying to run on. And many days have struggled to get above -25 and that's getting into potential lung damage territory so I tend to shy away from strenuous activity outside when it's that cold.
I've had to explain this to a friend who moved from Oklahoma to the PNW of the US. He's a very "you think it's bad here, you should see it back home" type of fella, and I had to explain that the trouble with winter weather here isn't the cold, it's that we constantly vacillate between just sub-freezing and just super-freezing, which turns the world into a treacherous ice rink.
If you've ever seen viral videos of Portland drivers unable to deal with winter weather, that's why: they aren't just incapable of driving in snow (though they are that, too), they're dealing with half an inch or more of solid ice that's melted a bit and refroze a half-dozen times.
Hah my family is from Portland and I lived there for a number of years. Also lived in Atlanta and Denver so I've seen first hand how stupid crazy ice can be. That big pile up in North Carolina a decade or so ago was primarily caused by ice build up followed by snow (and drivers going too fast for conditions).
I'm quite grateful to be in a predominantly snowy area - my friends on the East Coast complain about the cold and winter and I couldn't understand for awhile but now I know - it's the ice and the relative humidity that suck hard.
Yeah, cold weather can be manageable if it stays bitch-cold and dry. You get nosebleeds and chapped lips, but you can generally manage to get by provided the plows keep running.
That's not how winter weather works west of the Cascades. We rarely get cold fronts that really blast freeze us, we most often get fronts that chill us down to the twenties/negative single digits at night, warming to the mid-thirties/positive single digits during the day. That means wet, warm snow mixed with freezing rain and fog that then solidifies overnight, melts just enough to get slicker than owl shit during the day, rinse, repeat. In the bigger cities like Portland, Seattle and Tacoma that have hilly terrain we HAVE to more or less shut down and wait it out. It's just too treacherous.
Of course, that doesn't stop transplants and the pathologically stubborn from trying. Hence those viral videos I referred to.
Northern Michigan (roughly the same latitude as Portland) drivers are having problems too... It's been about 8°C warmer than usual for January, which means everything is thawing and re-freezing daily, or there's alternation between freezing rain and snow throughout the day. I've seen overconfident local drivers with their AWD going at the speed limit (which is for dry pavement) and promptly spinning themselves into the ditches.
Mainland China: have they stopped spitting in public and stop holding up children to pee in public trash cans after COVID?
Hong Kongers also drinks boiled water, even in the 30°C+ summer. Iced drinks cost extra for meals that come with a (hot) beverage.
No to the first, and the second is limited to helping them pee in the bushes these days.
Bushes feels more out of the way for everyone and less troublesome for sanitary workers, that's a win.
There is an middle eastern market / restaurant here. It's very good, but in the bathroom stalls there are these things that look like small watering cans. Is that what you are talking about?. How does one fill it? How is it used? I have so many questions.
This is an interesting one - do you mean the amount of each, or that it's traditionally a portion of each separately on a plate, or something else I'm not thinking of?
A common meal format is for each to be prepared separately, rather than mixed. So you might have a bbq chicken breast (protein), a salad (veg), and a baked potato (carb). Certainly not all meals are structured this way, but it's a simple default.
I visited Toronto last year and was entering a shopping mall through a double door vestibule. A middle aged woman is walking behind me, so I hold both doors for her.
"You held the door" she says. "Nobody does that anymore". I really didn't have anything to say but "I'm from... The prairies?".
Despite our stupid reputation, Prairie cities in Canada are known for their hospitality and friendliness, and whether it was the door holding thing, cyclists and pedestrians in heated screaming matches or just the general level of unfriendliness, the Toronto public were pretty awful.
I’ve noticed this too, though never as strongly as your example. Both when traveling to Toronto and Vancouver. I did live in Ontario for a while so maybe I am used to it? My wife, however, only lived in Calgary and she notices it a lot more than I do. I think everyone was friendlier about 25 years ago. I moved to Canada from Eastern Europe. I was in Vancouver, just a few days in, and a coupe walking in a park said hi to me. This was mind blowing. Strangers being nice to you?! That was a culture shock in the best of ways.
Hah, that's so awesome to hear. Yeah, I do think that everybody in our country felt a little nicer 25 years ago, but honestly, I'm not able to separate the rose tinted lenses of my youth from actual reality.
Calgary is getting a little crusty, too. I could blame social media, city growth, the wealth divide or media fragmentation, and while that would be fair, I think it's mainly the result of big city life.
In Eastern Europe, would you hazard the guess that friendliness to the degree that you saw in Vancouver isn't popular for historical reasons?
I often hear the criticism that Canadians are fake - polite and cordial on the surface, but hard to get to know and anxious underneath. What do you think?
History does play a role. While the communist totalitarian regime collapsed in 1989, 50 years of that left a mark. It was a regime that encouraged informants. Snitching on your own family members and neighbors was not uncommon. Treating everyone with suspicion for that long was not going to change overnight. I was old enough in the 90s to remember the influx of Western stuff and the general uplifting of spirits, but remnants of the old regime lingered in many aspects of life. Corruption remained rampant for years if not to this day, in spite of efforts to reduce it. All that to say, yes, historical reasons played a role.
In terms of Canadians, by now I'd say I am more Canadian than I am eastern European, by about 10 years. I came here in my early teens, so interesting timing given it's a period of change regardless of geography. "Hard to get to know" - sometimes, yes. Maybe more in the sense that generally people are less likely to outright share very personal things until there is a closer friendship. But not always. I've met many colleagues whom I ended up befriending outside work, and they were quite open. To be fair, most would be around my age, so millennials. Maybe that plays a role too. I found I get as much as I myself put in. If I share, they are likely to share and open up too. If I am guarded, so are they. Perhaps under the initial guardedness lies a desire to relax and be open.
I like the politeness. This is similar to the UK (makes sense) but also to, say, Japan. I think it's good to have that especially in public. To me it's basically a way of saying "let's just be decent to each other and work together." I also think it doesn't necessarily need to be only surface deep. To me, being polite is an outward expression of how I feel inside: respecting others, giving people the benefit of the doubt, not judging hastily. When I am being polite to the casher at 7/11 I don't do it because I feel the pressure of a social norm, but because I want to treat that person the same way I'd like them to treat me if our roles were reversed.
I don't think Canadians are fake. I'd say Canadians are private. Myself included. The way I think of it is that there are parts of my personality that are not as pleasant, perhaps, or "not for everyone". However, those aspects might not really add any value to daily life, relationships and interactions at work, or even with some family members. These are parts of myself that I myself don't like much, and I'm working on being better. Does toning those down mean I am fake to some extent? Perhaps!
Sorry, I don't mean to use myself as an example for everyone else. I will say that in interacting with younger generations at work, I do sense a bit of a divide. They seem quite open, less guarded, but also less polite and a bit socially awkward and anxious. I'm thinking co-op students for example. Almost like they didn't yet "get" how to be an adult. But maybe they are carving a path for a new mode of being, maybe one sacrifices some of the surface politeness and cordiality for a less filtered existence?
Ok I'll stop there. I could go on and on about these things.
Well, instead to the end because what you had to say was interesting. I also choose the glass half full perspective on the public personality of Canadians. It's not fake, rather, it's ordered and polite.
Thanks for the eastern Europe insight. It's useful for understanding friends of mine, particularly from Ukraine and Russia.
I like that: ordered and polite. Glad the insight helped :-)
People are still aggressively friendly in Atlantic Canada! (And the eternal "they're five meters away, should I hold the door open and rush them, or pretend I don't see them and let the door close but risk judgment for not holding the door?" still applies :) )
I love it! The 5 meter rule still applies in Calgary too, at least at my workplace. I am so torn sometimes!!! In fact this week I did pretend I didn't see someone and it haunted me for about 10 minutes :(
As someone from the prairies who has lived in both Toronto and Vancouver for extended periods of time, I think the "big city folk are terrible" is way overblown. Sample sizes and all, but I found Calgarians by far the meanest of the general public I've interacted with over the years. I actually like the culture of Toronto the best personally. Yes, everyone is busy and it's easy to feel like you're melting into a chaotic mess where no one speaks day to day, but once you get chatting with people almost everyone is really curious and open to conversation. Largest diversity of backgrounds and perspectives of anywhere I've been in Canada.
Given that hating on the big cities, especially Toronto, is a national pastime, I wanted to defend it. My fav city in the country, still.
Coming from USA, visiting Japan, it was a (pleasant) culture shock that slurping noodles in a restaurant was polite. I took full advantage! Compliment to the chef!
Coming back from Europe to the USA... the culture shock of re-entering... seeing so much abject poverty, lack of third spaces (such as plazas), and public transportation being a have-nots feel in most locations.
Small talk is a big deal here in Canada. I notice people who immigrate later in life have a hard time with this. I’ve been a Canadian since my early teens so to me it’s natural now. I get why it may feel kind of fake or useless to someone who is not used to it, but I always defended this. I value honesty and directness, but when I’m out and about in society, interacting with strangers, I think it is kind of nice to have this baseline understanding that we’ll just be nice to each other and exchange small talk. It’s not fake. It’s just being polite. The worst that can happen is the other person will cut it short. But more often it’s simply an easy ice breaker and the first step to making a new friend or at least a good first impression.
I grew up in the South (and in particular a predominantly Black community in the South) where small talk with strangers is also very common. The problem is that I'm supremely introverted. Small talk is exhausting, so I do it very little, and people back home generally perceive me as extremely shy (although it's not really shyness, just tiredness).
But then I moved to Australia, which has a much more reserved culture, and I find myself talking to strangers all the time — no more than I do in the US (and actually a lot less, since the social pressure to do it isn't there), but it stands out enough from the local culture that I have a reputation for being unusually outgoing.
I’m also fairly introverted. I get it. I think I developed a sort of outward persona, almost an automation for small talk and smile when in public. I do have a limit and need solo time to recharge my batteries. The nature of some jobs I had in my late 20s kind of forced me to build up tolerance and comfort.
Interesting to learn that about Australia! I would not have guessed that it’s more reserved. I know very little about Australia and surprisingly little about the US, outside the stuff everyone sees in movies, TV, etc. which I am sure is different from reality.
Ok I want to ask you a few questions about Canada. I’m from southwestern US which will explain my questions. These come from my experience visiting Toronto.
Not Canadian, but you've caught my interest with that first one: what kind of temperature would you expect indoors? Anything below 20C when it's cold outside sounds miserable to me!
Maybe if it’s your home, but the problem with high temperatures in things like stores, or subway stations is that you have to layer up for the cold weather, but now you’re sweating and feeling miserable in the store. Yeah, you can take layers off, but it’s kinda annoying to do all that when you’re only going to be there for 10-20 minutes.
And now because you just sweat, you’re even colder when you go outside.
That makes sense - I think the airport and restaurants example threw me, I was envisaging places that you'd be expecting to spend at least an hour or two, but yeah I get it more for places you're just popping in to and it sounds like @hobbes64 was thinking the same! (See also: needing to carry an extra layer in Singapore because it's 30C outside but everywhere has the A/C set to arctic)
The people who work in e.g. stores are spending the better part of the day there, though, so it would make sense to make it a reasonable temperature for their sake.
I expected the temp to be a little closer relative to the outside temp. A 20 degree difference was strange to me especially when going in and out frequently.
Hmmm well winter is long and in many places quite cold. Personally I keep the house around 21-22 degrees celsius in winter, 18-19 at night. I know my parents keep it warmer, like 23-24, which even if it’s only a couple of degrees, feels excessive to me. Some of my friends do keep it warmer too. I prefer to just put on a sweater as heating bill can be steep in winter.
Spicy food, I like it, but I’d say it’s pretty mixed. At work I do get the sense that many people don’t love spicy food, or they only like a small amount of heat.
Sorry, neither answer is really clear cut. Just my personal experience. Maybe some other folks can jump in and comment. I know there are quite a few Canadians on here.
In Greece, plumbing works differently than in the rest of Europe, so oftentimes, you can’t throw toilet paper in the toilet, but instead throw it in bins. Traveling there as German, it was a bit shocking and kinda tough to do in a way, because you’re just so programmed on wiping and throwing the toilet paper away immediately. It’s not as unhygienic as it sounds and you do acclimatise fast, but in the beginning it was quite the adjustment
Same in Brazil. Some places can handle toilet paper in the toilet now, but everywhere has a little bin for the paper.
I’ve read it’s actually less to do with the plumbing and more to do with the type of paper: our paper is simply not designed to disintegrate as paper in other parts of the world can. The research apparently suggests if they had our paper, they also would not be able to flush their paper either.
Interesting to know. I thought the plumbing itself is at fault but it makes sense, that it’s multifaceted.
When I first moved to America I remember going to see a dr under my health plan and being told I had to pay. I had no idea that was a thing (coming from Canada) and the receptionist looked really offended at me for trying to leave after my visit.
I also remember seeing how much class and race were intertwined and finding that quite shocking.
I had a similar but opposite experience moving from the US to Australia. I needed to get treated for an ear infection before I had universal health coverage, and the doctor and receptionist both apologized again and again that they had to charge me. It was like $30.
My parents came to visit me here this past October, and my dad had to go to the my local sleepy, small-town ER for an injury. He didn't have universal health coverage, obviously, but he had travel insurance, so he figured paying would be no biggie.
They put him in a hospital bed for a few hours and he was seen by several doctors and nurses (plus a bunch of nursing students practicing wound dressing), so he was expecting a big bill — but when he went to pay with his travel insurance, they decided dealing with insurance was too much of a bother and dropped all the charges. Despite that, they were still asking him to visit the ER every couple days to have his wound monitored and his dressing changed (all for free and on a walk-in basis), and they gave him a bunch of bandages and butterfly strips to take home in case he couldn't be bothered.
Also from Canada - having lived in Toronto (and the Golden Horseshoe) for a number of years - I noticed this exact thing when traveling to Chicago. Despite so many similarities, those cities are so different.
I've had the same thought going between Chicago and Toronto. Those two cities sure look the same on paper, but really different feelings. (Originally from Toronto)
College
I grew up in a very small town in the Appalachian mountains. Most of the people I went to school with were the same ones I started with at age four or five. Very few people moved in or out of the area. I wasn’t completely isolated, I traveled with my dad for his job and we took vacations, but my social world was narrow and extremely stable.
Going to a major U.S. university was a shock I really never fully adjusted to. The campus alone had more people than my entire county. On my first visit, my strongest impression was that everyone was beautiful. It sounds shallow, but coming from a place marked by extreme poverty, poor health, and an aging population, it was very much like stepping into a different world. Over time though, that contrast flipped. Returning home made the place I grew up feel stark and ugly in ways I had never realized.
Living on campus exposed class differences immediately. Many students received regular allowances from their parents, which was almost unheard of where I’m from. At the same time, a surprising number of them didn’t know how to do basic things like laundry. I ended up teaching people in my dorm how to use washers and dryers, things I had been doing since around age eight or nine.
I was out of my depth socially. Being surrounded by people from many backgrounds came with unspoken norms and subtleties I wasn’t prepared for. I never really felt like I belonged anywhere on campus and I very much had imposter syndrome. For all the time I was at college, I made not a single lifelong friendship. I just didn't know how to make new friends after I established my friend group at an early age.
Food was another shock. At home, most produce came wrapped in plastic and was bland. Suddenly there was abundance and variety everywhere. People joke about the freshman fifteen, but for me it was closer to twenty or thirty pounds. I had access to food choices I didn’t even know existed.
I didn’t have Indian food until I was 22.
Upon my first bite I was viscerally angry that I’d lived over two decades without it in my life.
When I first moved to USA, I didn't feel like cooking just for myself. So I lived off microwaveable meals from Safeway. I made friends. Started dating a girl. For something like a year my girlfriend never once thought to tell me about Trader Joe's, and their delicious microwavable meals. She just assumed I knew about it. We split up, and it is now decades later, but I still am irrationally resentful about that.
Which part of Appalachia are you from?
Without being too specific, I will say the Cumberland Gap)
Oh nice! Most of my family is from the Maryville/Townsend/Gatlinburg area.
As someone from an Asian background who prides myself on my worldliness (I've lived for months in cities across Canada, the UK, the US, and Singapore), I was absolutely culture-blasted (yes blasted, it was that jarring) by living in Singapore.
I was so excited to spend a few months there. I thought I understood Asian rigid adherence to rules and inflexible thinking. I did not. Singapore is next level. Japan, China, and Korea do not even come close to comparing with the robot-levels of rules following I encountered in Singapore.
My parents came to visit once and we went to a burger restaurant that had a 2 for 1 beer special. My dad wanted a beer, I wasn't feeling it so I asked the staff: could we do the special, but instead of the free beer, I have a fountain coke instead? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Waiting in line to buy something at the store? Oh sorry, the clock ticked past closing time, get out. No, I don't care if you've been in line for 20 minutes.
I saw locals who insisted on going through the metal maze-things to guide crowds at the airport...solo, at 3 in the morning, when no one else was there. Because of following the rules. One of them scowled at me for not doing the same and taking a cab, despite there being 15+ cabs for the two of us.
I saw a guy who obsessed with balancing trash on an overflowing garbage can, despite there being an empty one maybe 10 ft away. Because I guess he had it drilled in his head that he had to do that one right.
All the locals I met had no life outside of work or school, it was jarring. There was a wonderful art and drinks/snacks night in an open-air park one night. The only people there enjoying it were exchange students and ex-pats...but there was a massive line of locals who paid to enter, walk in a single file line through the whole thing, and then leave. No stopping to chat. No mingling. Just...I think they thought the government told them it was good to see, so they'd better file through.
I was there when the founding dictator, Lee Kwan Yew, died. The propaganda was absolutely insane, but what really stuck with me was the literal days-long line of people lining up to view his body. Now, looking from afar I'd figure that just showed the respect for him...but the people there were remarkably not-touched at all by his passing. There were people who couldn't even answer why they were in line - just that they were supposed to.
I could go on, but I think that's more than enough examples to get my point across. When I was leaving, the staff at Changi told me that my flight had been changed terminals and that I might not be able to get there without paying for a cab because the bus wasn't running yet, and I wasn't allowed to enter the terminal I was currently in because...rules (they were CONNECTED INTERNALLY). I've never been so excited to have an international adventure end in my life, and it left me with a profound appreciation for all the spontaneity, creativity, and independent thinking Western culture has baked into our every day lives. It's not perfect by any means - gestures wildly at the US - but I really think its the culture I need to thrive.
Fascinating! Thank you for sharing. This whole thread is a treasure chest of learning about places.
What an absolutely bizarre place to be
This one felt the most blasting to me. Are they....in the bad place? I always imagined Singapore to be much like Hong Kong but more culturally diverse and, I thought, makes people more flexible. HKers super pride themselves on being crazy flexible: there's the rules, gotta follow the rules, but let me see how I can find a different set of rules or push the situation just slightly outside the rule jurisdiction and find something efficient and make sense. Outside the box thinking is akin to Divinity.
If a bunch of people are in line and a new counter opens up or one closes, the silent zipper merge liquid flow of bodies to auto re-optimize is something to behold. Say the train is full but another person is running, people auto rotate bodies to generate one more person's room in this sardine can. Or, boss is missing and we have questions no one knows, ok let's work it out so everyone is happy and things are fair until boss comes back.
A blogger put it this way:
In your beer/coke example, the 識做 solution is obviously to quietly offer an unopened bottle to take home while offering coke half price. That way, the staff has successfully up-sold you guys, you get a take home beer, win win.
Store is closing soon? One employee stands by the door stopping traffic flow 20 minutes to. Get all the other staff to drop everything and take a hand held card tap machine to work through the line. If one more person wants to go in, the 執生 way to do it is to announce "I only need X product, I know exactly where it is and here's exact/slightly more than enough change", and he'd be let in and out in time. This should be store policy from day one.
The airport person, if the terminal is very empty, put you on one of those beepy cars and you'd be on your way through the building while maintaining the rule that it's closed to pedestrians. Or walk escort by one of the staff. Done.
I don't even understand what's going on with the trash can example person and what's going on there. Are people so terrified by punishment that they turn off all independent thinking?
I knew you'd have thoughts! Yes, your distinction with HK culture fits very much what I've experienced of Chinese culture and to varying extents Korean and Japanese culture. They have their own nuances: e.g. the Chinese are the most likely to just look the other way 'just this time' about the rule, while the Japanese the most earnest about finding you a solution that fits within the book, but the key part is that they're all still trying to figure it out within their cultural/mental framework. Singapore was the only place I've been where that just did not exist. They just kept to the rules and if they failed you, oh well, tough luck.
The trash can example could just be a person with tunnel vision on a bad day - those people exist everywhere. But it just stuck with me because it was just so fundamentally bizarre and in line with the rest of the city's total lack of ability to think for themselves.
The best explanation I can give is that it's less the punishment example - though that is still there - than it is Singapore has had by far the most successful dictatorship in Asia. I don't think it's really arguable: best quality of life, highest income, most internationally linked, lowest corruption, and they even have relatively affordable housing still. The city is clean and absolutely gorgeous, the public transit is super efficient, and there's wonderful amenities spread nicely across the city. And all this when it was still a backwater trading/industrial hub of Malaysia as recent as the 1960s. I think the level of trust in their government is just enormously higher than anywhere else as a result and no one thinks for themselves. They never have to.
I also noted that while all my peers were depressingly unhappy and uninterested in exploring more out of life than work, the youngest generation did seem much more annoyed by the restrictions. From what I've seen in the news since I've left, it does seem the culture is dramatically shifting with Gen Z onwards - much more travel exposure, internet exposure, and desire for creativity and freedom than before.
One random aside people might find amusing: Singapore banned public outdoor drinking at all hours while I was there, leading to all my friends mockingly asking me what the hell I was up to, haha.
:3 maybe people were especially rule following when they saw you and thought you were keeping tabs on them. Just kidding. Maybe it's a "we only bend the rules for our friends" kinda thing?
But yeah something has to give, human beings are fun and creative and imaginative. I would never bet against the youth
I'm not sure if this counts, but something that really stuck in my mind was the continuous running water all around Rome.
After arriving at the airport, I went to the restroom and saw that the water was already flushing the urinal. After finishing my business, I looked around for a lever or button or something to shut off the water, but couldn't find one. Turns out all the urinals were just constantly flushing. I thought that was a little weird but moved on with my life. Then it turned out that there were tons of fountains all around the city that just constantly flow into a drain, which made me realize that the urinals weren't broken. They just had that much water to spare. It was mind-blowing for someone like me from California, which is usually in drought conditions (although apparently not this month).
Also sink related: all the UK sinks that have hot and cold on opposite ends of the sink instead of one faucet in the middle that can give warm water combined. So inconvenient. I know it's because old plumbing but a lot of those sinks are new.
Biggest culture shock was when I got the opportunity to visit Israel twice for a previous job. I got to see and do a fair amount around Tel Aviv, and it was really a different world.
It was especially harrowing to actually see the Gaza strip and the military equipment around there.
I could talk about a lot from that visit. But the biggest shock was all these normal people living day to day when there's an air raid siren blasting like once a week for the umbrella defence system to blow missiles out the sky, and they are like "oh it's just the dog Palestinians".
I made it clear during my trip that I was not pro Israel, but I was happy to listen to people's views and it was intense. The raw, deep seated hatred some of them have for an entire group of people was pretty scary.
I don't think I could ever really understand it to be honest. Maybe I can emphasise a little? But it's really difficult not living there.
This is not about a huge shock, but I'm very conscious about how different cultures allow different amounts of physical personal space. I'm from a place where we stand fairly far apart when talking and feel uncomfortable if someone gets within that area. When I travel, I sometimes experience people who will come very close when talking, or in public areas people will bump into each other more often and that seems pretty odd to me. I mentioned it to a "close talker" once and they must have been pretty offended about it because they talked about it every time I saw them afterward.
My seventh grade Spanish teacher was from Colombia and talked about that! She was used to getting very into people's faces when she first came to the US. She adjusted her behavior by the time we had her, but before teaching at my school, she first taught Spanish to police officers.
She recounted how she'd startle officers by leaning right into their faces while correcting their pronunciation and sounding out the syllables. And how in retrospect she was lucky no one reacted badly.
In high school, a girl transferred in from Colombia and we became friends. But she was very touchy feely. Always wanting to hug me when we met up, touching my arm while talking to me, standing really close, etc.
As a guy, I was like "...is she into me? What is going on here??" Typical guy thinking, I know, but I wasn't interested in her in that way anyway. Also, practically none of the girls who I was friends with, who were from the US, were like that. Not to that extent. Plus, I'm not particularly touchy feely, again being a guy and just my own upbringing (think being Asian plays into this a little). But I didn't really know how to say something without thinking I'd be offending her.
Eventually a mutual friend unprompted told her, "You know, JC doesn't like being touched that much..." in front of me. My Colombian friend looked at me and I just nervously smiled and nodded in confirmation. She was mortified and apologized profusely. And I was a bit embarrassed, too. We're friends, after all! But she also explained that in Colombia that that level of touch and proximity is totally normal. It doesn't mean anything other than that we're good friends. She didn't really realize that in the US things were so different. We were still cool afterwards. She touched less, but I also accepted it more. It was a good learning experience, probably for the both of us.
That's awesome your mutual friend said something!
I grew up in a US city where a large percentage of the population (historically) are of German decent; I'm used to a little "breathing room" in lines and stores.
I now live in New Orleans, and have for some time. I still can't get used to how close strangers stand to me in lines, etc.. They get so close that if I shift my weight from my front foot to the back or just turn my upper body I bump into them. Gimmie some space, man!
My mom experienced something similar when we moved from the Midwest to Salt Lake City. As a kid/young teen, I didn't notice it at the time. But she told me that she got tired of people seemingly always within her personal bubble. Particularly while waiting in lines like at the grocery store. And not just within her personal space but like being so close as to touch her with their elbows and such.
Once or twice I've mentioned this on reddit and there were a handful of people who knew exactly what my mom had experienced in SLC. I was genuinely surprised; I thought she was just making a big deal out of nothing.
I had a Nicaraguan-Italian coworker who identified this as a language thing rather than a culture thing. She told me that you don't touch people when you're speaking English, but you do touch them when you're speaking Spanish or Italian.
We had some university students from Spain fly down to work with us (consulting), so after she told me that, I paid attention to how she acted when she was speaking to them in English or Spanish. Sure enough, she was always touching their arms and shoulders when she spoke to them in Spanish, but not when she spoke to them in English.
My university friend from Ecuador said the same when I asked her straight what the biggest difference was between Canadians and South Americans.
"Canadians like their space" - an observation that was judgement, observation and unfortunate fact for her all at once. At the time, it made me a little ashamed to be from a place where people couldn't handle being close.
When my wife and I went down south to South Carolina and Florida we did our usual chart of Celiac-friendly gluten-free food so we can, practically, plan the trip backwards from where we eat. Up here in NJ it's often a minefield with cross-contamination; even when we find a new place that'll do a GF order, we take a huge chance and my wife occasionally gets horribly sick for a day a few times per year. We thought food prep was going to be worse down south.
Nope! Holy shit, so much better. Not only is there some real good GF food down there, but restaurants who were serving GF were way better about managers swinging by to make sure they got her order correct. There was a GF chicken and waffles chain, Bantum and Biddy, that was like crack in Amelia Island. We ate there three times in 24 hours. Zero glutenings in a whole week. Y'all got it good.
I can't believe Bantam and Biddy is mentioned in this thread. Their chef opened a similar concept/offshoot in my hometown, and I went to the original when I lived in Atlanta. That's cool to hear they took care of y'all.
My daughter has a number of food allergies (peanuts, all tree nuts except almonds, sesame, and dairy), and it's tough navigating her allergies at restaurants. That said, there's so much more ingredient transparency, accommodation, alternative offerings, and general understanding nowadays. The nearby vegan bakery has been an absolute savior to us.
A reverse culture shock: Coming home from remote summer work to the overwhelming noise and crowds and shininess of modern city life, it always took me a couple weeks to readjust.
To expand: I spent my younger summers tree planting in northern canada (it's a real job that can make good money, not, like, a feel-good volunteer thing). The companies I worked for had bush camp setups in reasonably remote locations, where the amenities were our own tents, outhouses, bathing in the nearest lake/river, and a cookshack run off propane + mess tent. I did this long enough ago that starlink didn't exist, and there was usually little to no cell service in these areas. The nearest towns were often 1-2 hours away, and we'd go in only once every week or two. We worked hard and had fun, but man were we ever in our own world! Coming home was such a major adjustment to all the stimuli.
Not quite a culture shock, but a similar story I have is that during college (this is like, 7 years ago, not a particularly long time), I lived in an apartment where my bedroom window was maybe 50 feet from the patio of a bar with dollar beers on Tuesdays. I got so used to falling asleep with the noise (and just street noise in general) that when I'd go home for breaks to my mom's suburban house that backed up to a golf course, I couldn't sleep because it was too quiet!
Oh, I can relate! I sleep with a fan on and either have to 'wean' myself off the sound before I travel where there won't be one, or just bring a fan with me.
For that, I found out that iPhones actually have a "background noise" accessibility setting that I started using when I'm in hotels. I just set it to the dark noise options and leave it playing over night and it kind of mimics the fan noise.
Ive used my phone before in a pinch and found it didn't really work for me, personally.
Still your comment made me curious if androids have something similar to the ios built-in noise option. It looks like some do (or at least did at one point), though my phone doesn't seem to have it available.
I use a couple different apps for it on Android but I believe I can use the Google assistant to play various white (or whatever color, the system makes no sense to me) noise options.
I prefer rain sounds that are more distinct with thunder or the rain hitting something distinctive so it isn't all a static blur so I use it as part of my finch app
macaroni served with clear broth, with options of fried egg, hotdogs, ham slice, or (if feeling fancy) porkchops/grilled chicken/5mm thick steak.
I've eaten any variations upon clear broth + starch + protein my whole life and never thought it was weird, until Mr Chocobean came to HK with me. After spending a few weeks in my culture, Mr Chocobean was all kinds of culture shocked and wanted something familiar. I suggest macaroni for breakfast? He thought it was kind of weird to eat as breakfast but yes macaroni would be familiar so he came, chose his protein, and was actually pretty excited. Waiter casually dropped off two soup spoons. Soup spoons? Yeah, for your macaroni. More culture shock ensued. We went for actual Italian pasta later that afternoon.
Hot pots:
The first time I had sukiyaki was the first time I realised that hot pots could be beautifully presented: a perfect balance of colours and textures, that looked wholesome and nutritious, promising a responsible diet with a responsible quantity of food.
My first Taiwanese invididual hot pot was also a shock: you mean.... I can take my time and eat at my own pace and whatever I put in stays there until I've actually been able to eat a bite?
Don't get me wrong, I still love my Cantonese hotpot as a family meal, I love feeling like an absolute T-Rex one moment and overloading on greens the next, I love finding surprising ingredients I sure didn't put in but know goes well with the other surprises I fished out, and meals don't need to look good to taste good. But cultural diversity is a wonderful thing.
This is only tangentially related, but I was recently shocked to find out that there is not only zero Porto's locations in Florida, but they only exist in a few cities around the greater Los Angeles area.
For those outside the loop, Porto's is a chain of Cuban bakeries specializing in pastry and cakes, but also do coffee, bread, and a handful of lunch specialties. They are notable because they are physically huge buildings, are massively popular, and their food is both mind-blowingly good while also being very reasonably priced. Their most famous item is their cheese rolls, which is a sweet cream cheese filled pastry roll, followed by their potato balls which are a buttery cheesy potato... ball. Right now they are in the middle of making a new location in Downtown Disney, the shopping and restaurant space outside of Disneyland, so they're a pretty big deal to people in the area.
And for those even more out of the loop, I'm surprised that they aren't in Florida because there's a lot of Cuban people there.
I'm heading back to my parent's place in LA in a couple of weeks and I'm about to hit Porto's every single day I'm there.
When I visited Japan, I was already at least conceptually familiar with many, many aspects of the culture (I can read/speak Japanese), so while I was still impressed when I got there, I wasn't necessarily culturally shocked by most things I saw.
But there is one thing that still left me in shock: convenience stores.
It sounds silly, because of course I understand what a 24 hour store is, it's not particularly special as a concept, and I of course knew way beforehand that Japan was littered with them. But such establishments do not exist where I'm from. Here, after like 10 Pm, the only things you'll find open are bars. If you need to buy anything in an emergency you'll have to wait until everything opens back up around 8/9 AM.
So when I was in Japan and I found myself thinking "man I really need to get [thing] but it's past 10 pm" it then suddenly hit me that no, actually, I can just go outside and find a convenience store open that will likely be selling anything I need. It was a legit shock and took a while to get used to the idea that I could just go out and get stuff instead of waiting until the next day. Felt a little surreal to have that kind of convenience (heh).
And of course, when I got back, I sorely missed that experience. It's really funny how you can be shocked by the things you least expect.
Another little shock that took took a while to get used to was that most restaurants closed "early", but then I learned that's because I come from a country where dinner is usually at 8/9 PM whereas most of the world eats dinner before that haha.
Seeing people openly carrying guns in public was a huge shock to me. The first time I encountered it was on vacation in Croatia, where there were guards with I think SMGs standing outside a local bank, looking mighty menacing. In Norway, parliament authorized police to routinely carry guns last year. All my time growing up, not even the cops would carry guns. You'd never see an armed person in public. Ironically, Norway has a relatively high number of firearms per capita by European standards, because hunting is/was common, and sports shooting is also fairly popular. But those are kept strictly under lock and key when not in use. Sure, if you go for a hike in the woods during hunting season, you might see a hunter with a gun, but you'd never see one on the street. Nobody but criminals buys a gun for personal protection.
My most shocking experience was in 2009. I happened to be in Oslo when Obama was there to receive the Nobel Peace Prize. There were snipers on rooftops, men in military gear carrying automatic rifles in the streets, and the main street was closed to traffic. I felt like I'd stepped into a Hollywood movie. Experiencing that kind of culture shock within the heart of your own culture made it all the more shocking.
Open carry was a shock to me, too, and I'm a U.S. native. I grew up in a rural area in Michigan where there'd always been an active gun culture for hunting and target shooting. However, guns were only out at the range, in the field, and otherwise locked up. Visible handguns were for police, and concealed carry was extremely rare. I met a private detective once and was startled to see a gun when his jacket swung open - that's how uncommon guns were in public. You still don't see guns on the streets in Michigan. Open carry is illegal in a very long list of public places (banks, churches, courts, schools, hospitals, etc.), and any private business owner can prohibit guns on their premises.
In the last decade or so, I've traveled to places in the U.S. where people (as far as I've seen, exclusively men) wear handguns like accessories. The hospitals I work in have to display prominent signs indicating that guns are prohibited. I've seen a nervous unarmed security guard arguing with an armed visitor at an emergency room entrance.
The ugly thing is that open carry is not a naturally evolved cultural phenomenon. Right-wing channels carry a lot of racially coded crime news, and some people have a palpable sense of threat that seems to justify prominently advertising that they, too, are dangerous. I've traveled with a (white) co-worker who confidently asserted that they were bringing a gun on a trip to Atlanta because "it's a dangerous city" (majority Black).
The biggest one for me when moving east was that some people over here, especially ones from further east, think of "ma'am" and "madam" as age-coded. I've... learned... to call everyone "miss" but a decade in it still feels ridiculous to call any adult that.
Some people even object to being called "sir" or any other formal title and I can't understand that one at all. Like, we don't know each other, how do you expect me to address you?
I like this one as an example of culture shock, because it's the perfect case of "there's no objective right or wrong, but the other way feels wrong, goddammit"!
Coming from the other side of this one: if you listen to the patterns of speech in places where people might object to formal titles, you'll usually notice that they don't use direct address that much at all. And I'd make a decent bet that you're now thinking about how that'd sound curt and impolite, but that's because you're imagining taking your own way of speaking and just dropping those titles out of it!
Tends to be a question of communicating the same thing with tone and filler words, or the cultural expectation just being that the whole interaction is a few notches less formal overall. Nowhere to wedge "sir" into "Hey, how's it going? Anything you need help with there?" ;)
You, implied, or first name. I would find it very strange being called “sir”. Maybe not to the level of objectionable but I’m certainly not going to reciprocate and call anyone else “sir”.
I would never call someone by their first name unless specifically invited to. That seems very rude to my sensibilities.
That's so funny because, growing up in Texas, I'm so used to hearing service workers, for example, say "sir" to me even since I was in high school. I don't personally really say it, but it's still super common for me to hear it.
Don’t know where you are on the east coast, but “miss” feels even more offensive than ma’am, unless you’re speaking to a child.
Using Sir/Ma’am is fine if you’re trying to get someone’s attention, I guess, but it just comes off as overly formal here otherwise. If we’re having a conversation, you don’t need to use them at all - I already know you’re talking to me so there’s no need to address me with my name or a placeholder.
I’m speaking generally - If you’re working in a customer service role, it’s a little more common and acceptable.
I'm stumbling a little bit on "overly formal"; what's the appropriate level (in your area) of formality for an interaction between strangers? I'm used to those interactions being entirely formal by default.
I guess that “sir” implies hierarchy, and therefore formality. I would not classify interactions between two random strangers on the street as “formal” in any way - we’re all equals. That doesn’t mean it’s okay to be rude or anything, but I certainly would never call anyone “sir”
Wow, you think about this so differently from me! To me, an interaction between equals is the most formal, because it's important to display mutual respect to avoid implying a hierarchy. An interaction between, say, a teacher and student can be a lot less formal because they know where they stand relative to each other. So where a teacher can call a student by name, they wouldn't do that to, say, the cashier at the supermarket.
This is really interesting because it finally made the difference click in my mind! If I'm understanding correctly, your experience is hierarchy by default: of course a hierarchy must exist, so you have to send explicit signals like calling them "sir", to show that you're raising them to the top of the hierarchy as an equal rather than placing yourself higher.
The inverse - the way I'm familiar with, and I think the other replies probably are too - is that there's no hierarchy unless you construct one. You treat people with informal familiarity to show that you're seeing them as an equal, the same way you'd treat a friend, and calling someone "sir" gently breaks that assumption: raising the person you're talking to above yourself creates a difference, or a distance, where there otherwise wouldn't have been one.
I think you're onto it there except one thing: the formality also creates distance for me, but that distance is essential for respect. Unearned familiarity is seen as rude or, worse, sleazy.
This comment actually got to be longer than I thought it would. It was actually a bit fun thinking about this and realizing just how many times I've been put outside my world view and experiences so far in my life.
I'm a white guy who grew up in the Pacific Northwest with what I would say was a racially diverse group of friends, so while there were minor "shocks" none of them felt big since I was a kid, and you just accept that's what your friends' families do. That being said, I definitely ran in to my share of different culture shocks over the years.
For a within the broader US culture shock, I grew up I would say in a comfortably middle class household, but part of that was being frugal, and we did all the repair work for cars and our house (except for specialist stuff that required a professional). When I went to college it was a shock how many of my friends didn't know basic car maintenance or how to do "home repair" things that felt like stuff I'd been doing since I was old enough to walk around and hand tools to my dad and older brother.
There was also the number of kids who received a substantial allowance from their parents to spend on whatever. My parents gave me $50 a month so that I could go out and eat with my friends sometimes so I wouldn't feel left out, and they helped me pay for my room and board, which I was incredibly grateful for that since I knew it wasn't cheap. I eventually had my grandpa start giving me some money each month to help with school expenses since I had helped out at his house for most of my life and would go down every few weekends to help him with things which helped me pay for my books (hello $300 mandatory text book that the teacher puts out a new edition of every year with updated homework questions so you can't reuse an older edition). Once I turned 21, after my first weekend going out to bars, I never went again unless it was for a friend's birthday or a special event. Way too expensive and I couldn't justify spending 5-10x more for drinks when I could just get a bottle or some beers and have a better time with people I enjoyed being around by not going. Meanwhile some of the guys I knew were out at the bars every weekend at least once, but sometimes 2-3 nights in a row.
My wife is Malaysian Chinese, and we eventually moved to Malaysia, so I've had my fair share of culture shocks which I've gotten used to:
These are really unique to experiences that somehow feel more shocking to me than many others here, because my parents are Chinese and I also grew up in the PNW: it's just close enough to really be jarred by the differences.
Is this more regional or more language base? Or bit of both, with not just name changes, but flavorings a little different between the two?
That's so funny that the Hong Konger versions of this and "must have tea when we have time (得閒飲茶)" are completely superficial with no intention to follow through at all, let along right there and then. I kinda like that, going for food suddenly all the time. And so many options too!
Giving money to the parents make more sense when the kids are living together, otherwise it's a sort of "candy money" for the parents, or else supporting younger siblings who are still in school.
It depends on the dish in question. I'm going by the "English" names for dishes, since I've found through chatting with family here that the dialect of Hokkien my wife's family speaks is a regional dialect, so it is different enough going the four drive down to Kuala Lumpur that it can be hard to understand someone.
Note: For anyone unfamiliar Hokkien is a dialect of Chinese primarily spoken in the Fujian province in Southeastern China. This dialect is spoken by different diaspora groups, with (I believe) the largest concentrations of them being in Taiwan, Singapore, and Western Malaysia (+ the Southwestern coast of Thailand to some extent)
On the completely different dish front there is Hokkien Mee:
In Penang this is a prawn based noodle soup dish
In Kuala Lumpur (KL) it is a saucy fried woke fried noodle dish
If you want the Penang variant in KL you would want to order Prawn Mee
If you want the KL variant in Penang you would order Hokkien Char
There are dishes like Curry Mee where the flavor varies a ton region to region, some places will be more peppery, some with a more "curry" taste to it. When you go to a stall selling it, you'll get the regional variation of the place you're in, but if you went to a resturant for say Ipoh cuisine, they would label they're regional variant as "Ipoh Curry Mee" so people know that it won't be the same.
Those are the ones that come to mind, but I remember being bewildered by this in college when I was new to my wife's friend group hearing this for the first time after my initial trip to meet my wife's family and talking about what it was like visiting Malaysia for the first time.
I think there are times when it can be superficial where I lived. I know my mother in law would great everyone with the "chiak pah boi (Have you eaten)" (please note the Hokkien dialact my wife's family speaks doesn't have a formal written system [one is actively being worked on as a language preservation project!] so spelling varies a lot) as a polite thing when we'd walk in the neighborhood, but there wasn't any food place within walking distance for a quick follow up food. If we were in town, I've seen them run in to some one and then stop to grab a quick something while they chatted.
When we were living close by to my in-laws, a lot of the time if we gave less directly to them, we'd instead be treating them to dinners or paying for other things. From a few of my wife's friends I've chatted about it with, there seems to be a desire to let the parents enjoy some of their retirement/older age and do fun things as a form of repaying them for raising them, so definitely some "candy money" parts in some situations. For us, my father-in-law recently came out of retirement to work, but we're also not sure how long he'll keep working, so what long term support for them during their retirement will look like is something my wife and I have been trying to keep in our mind when we make rough plans for the future.
Wikipedia has a great table to describe the difference between hokkien mee types. Now I want to try Medan hokkien mee after seeing how loaded it is.
Another that comes to mind is bak ku teh types. The most common in Singapore is the Teochew variation which is strongly pepper and garlic. flavor while the Malaysian one is deeply herbal. In Malaysia, the most common is Hokkien style, which is rich and herbal. I don't think I've had the even more herbal Cantonese version yet.
Also "carrot cake" in the West is very different than in either this or this "carrot cake" in Singapore.
I didn't even think to check to check Wikipedia for this, thanks for sharing that!
I haven't had Singaporean bak ku teh yet though reading your comment made me remember our Singaporean friend visiting us and mentioning it was different when we went out for bak ku teh. We actually had some bak ku teh after our move over to KL, and I was a bit surprised at the taste as the Penang style is the only one I'd had before is much more herbal than the taste we had here, which I was told was typical for here. I would have assumed that they would have the Hokkien style since Penang has a large population of Hokkien people, but the description on that page sounds like I've been eating the Cantonese style.
My first time eating dim sum and being confused when someone asked me if I wanted "carrot cake" when I was in the US came to mind, reading that.
I love going down food rabbitholes as I've gotten older. I remember joking with my wife about how I'd be surprised if you told me 10 years that I'd be excited trying different mustards or wanting to go down an interesting food rabbit hole like trying sambals from different areas.
Two culture shocks, related.
I went to Japan early last year and immediately went to a small city in Kyushu. It was a 3 hour bus away from the airport I flew into, and I spent two days at a luxurious ryokan, just vibing and enjoying walking around the town. After that, I took the train to the other side of the island for three days. On my way off of Kyushu to Hiroshima, I saw the first faces of European ancestry I had since leaving the airport, at the Kokura train station. I grew up and have lived and traveled (until that trip) in North America and Europe. Though I'm reasonably cosmopolitan, and have been the minority in many rooms, it was the first trip I had taken where, for days, I had seen nobody like the folks I grew up with. It was on an escalator, and I did a literal doubletake, because I had seen so many new faces in the past 5 days, but those two stood out.
On my way back from Japan, after 10 days, I landed in LA, and was immediately overwhelmed by all the things to read out there. In past trips, to various countries, I either read the language or knew the alphabet enough to sound things out on signs. Most written meaning in Japanese is conveyed by kanji, symbols adapted from Chinese writing with several readings and idioms, and it is very difficult to master. Although English writing (and kana, a few dozen characters which have defined sounds to make words) is everywhere in Japan, it was still mostly beyond me, despite being able to speak a good deal. Reading signs turned into a puzzle as I tried to expand my kanji comprehension, and it was a little endorphin rush to recognize a word or name I'd just learned that day. I've taken for granted the last 30 years of my life that I can read or at least get meaning from signs and other writing. Everywhere I look, I can get meaning, even if it is only, "that sign makes these sounds, which I can hear in my head, even if not understand." Getting into LA was a form of unexpected information overload.