I don't think my wife and I are that weird here, but we have jokingly exaggerated arguments about stupid things we don't really care about. For example, She loves desserts a la mode. I have an apparently hot take that a la mode makes the hot dessert cold and the ice cream melted, and ice cream is better on the side.

Does anyone else do this, and if so, what do you argue about?

The idea of what it means to be a man has evolved significantly over the last century. We can build a fresh perspective on understanding masculinity beyond the stereotypical confines of strength, stoicism, and dominance. I appreciate Deimos trying out new groups and allowing topics to flourish. I could see this group having healthy discussions about the diverse experiences and expectations of men in today's society.

I envision topics on personal anecdotes, insights, and questions. I wanted to list out a few possibilities for future discussions that are top of mind.

1. The changing roles and responsibilities of men in personal and professional life.
2. The impact of societal norms and expectations on men's mental health.
3. Embracing vulnerability and emotional openness.
4. Men's role in promoting gender equality and mutual respect.
5. The significance of self-care and well-being in men's life.
6. How men can effectively communicate their emotions, needs, and concerns.
7. Relationships, expectations, and stereotypes

While not comprehensive, it's a start of areas we may consider. What are your thoughts on what this group could be?

EDIT - Grammar and Summary 7/9/2023 @3 pm mountain

Hello, everyone. It's encouraging to see such in-depth and thoughtful conversations on ~life.men. I wanted to take a moment to recap the significant themes I read up to this point. This is high level, so please correct me if I got it wrong.

Our discussions around Stoicism have been quite enlightening, and we've recognized its potential to encourage self-control and inner resilience. Nevertheless, we've also acknowledged its potential misuse, which might inadvertently promote unhealthy aspects of masculinity. This is a subject that requires more nuanced exploration.

We've unanimously expressed the need for a supportive environment for men of all identities. This includes cis, gay, trans, and men of all other identifications. Despite potential challenges such as toxicity and inactivity, many believe this forum can serve as a respectful and positive space to engage in discussions about contemporary masculinity.

Conversations have emphasized challenging traditional gender norms and fostering inclusivity. There's been a strong consensus against defining masculinity by outdated stereotypes. We've expressed a shared commitment to creating an environment welcoming everyone, regardless of gender identity. We also acknowledge the role of diverse geographical and cultural backgrounds in shaping our understanding of gender, which we deeply value.

The topic of men's role in promoting gender equality has been prominent. We agree on the importance of men as allies in this movement. Tackling the rigid roles defined by patriarchal norms is crucial, as is having open and transparent conversations on these issues. Progress in gender equality benefits everyone - it's not a zero-sum game.

We've also delved into gender norms, roles, and the usage of gendered language. It's been encouraging to see such scrutiny of societal expectations and a strong emphasis on promoting universally beneficial values and inclusivity. There's a shared understanding of the complexity of gendered language and how it can both define personal identity and represent broader affiliations.

We've explored varied experiences in male-specific spaces. From the importance of representing all demographics to discussing the challenges of modern fatherhood, we've covered extensive territory. There's a shared commitment to guard against potential toxicity and ensure balance in all our discussions.

We have expressed the importance of focused discussions on men's experiences. Challenging assumptions about masculinity and addressing men's issues from multiple perspectives can impact our society.

I'm new to Tildes and not sure where to go from here. Given all the valuable insights and themes we've gathered, how can we adopt draft guidelines for our community? I suspect we can see how this develops organically, but I appreciate approaching things intentionally. Thanks for all the comments and discussions. It has me thinking much more broadly!

Tale as old as time, I suppose. Straight man doesn't understand women. I'm hoping this site will provide a healthy place to discuss my feelings and get wholesome input from others without it turning into a pity party or cesspool.

I didn't have any interest in dating until after I'd graduated college. Unfortunately, I immediately moved to an area of the country notorious for its unfavorable gender ratio. There are many more men than women here which means I'm starting on hard mode. I do at least have some traits which make things easier than for most. I am high earning, reasonably fit (not super cut but I work out most days), tall and I believe mentally healthy. However I can tell that my approach doesn't really catch with most people.

I've had limited success out here. Some of my failures are mine to own. Getting started from nothing means I'm venturing into the unknown. I'm a naturally anxious person and never felt any intuition in social situations. Thankfully I've managed to figure out a way of being that jives with some people and learned the hard way the things I do that don't jive so well. But dating seems to have its own social rules - and they're harder to learn due to all of the misinformation.

To sort out a lot of the misinformation I look to the people I see with the greatest degree of success. The older couples that are clearly deeply happy. My parents do pretty well in that regard. They've been married for 30-ish years with nothing more than a short argument between them. Or maybe I'll talk with an older co-worker who loves his wife the same way he did decades ago. People say that all happy families are the same, and unhappy families each broken in their own way. It's clear that there are some things in common with the happy couples - a universal recipe for happiness and success.

• Forgiveness
• Consistent effort
• Flexibility
• Similar values

I try to take these virtues with me when dating.

Of course, mutual attraction is a black box and also plays an important role. I've tried dating women that are just outside of what I would consider attractive. I think it's important to know what truly is important to me. But I found that things did not feel right and I can't compromise in that way. I'm not looking for a 10. But if I know they are not attractive to me it won't work.

In the normal world (outside of online dating) I think the odds of a random person being instantly notably attractive are very low. Someone needs to be sufficiently aesthetically attractive, but also have the right mind and soul. Without the latter two I have no interest. So for me when I've met a nice woman from a dating app the process of learning more about this person begins - and it can take a while to truly get to know someone. But I draw on the virtue of effort and am more than willing to make that an active process as we get closer.

There are actually some people out there that this all seems to align with. I think it's mostly a matter of time before I find the right person - so I'm not entirely discouraged. But the vast majority of women I meet seem to have the same feedback. They don't feel a connection - maybe that translates to "they're not attracted enough to me", maybe it's something else. But what I call a "connection" is something that can't be absolutely determined after one date.

Given my profile pictures are representative of my appearance, I don't think they're all saying I'm aesthetically unattractive to them. Sure, some might decide after meeting me that they aren't as attracted in person. I experience that for myself some of the time. But I suspect that much of the time this is more of a mismatched approach. I really want to know either how better to find my kind of person, or what ways I can adapt to be flexible for the women I'm dating.

Edit: Thank you everyone for your thoughts!

A lot of people said a lot of things, many of which sounds right to me but only a few I think are applicable as next steps.

1. My own reflection leads me to believe that being more present and less analytical will make dates more enjoyable and productive for both people.
2. Keeping a very long term goal in mind cripples the dynamic of early dating. It requires future prediction abilities beyond what a human can do.
3. I don't know if I can be the "fun guy" all the time but I can definitely increase the amount of fun.

I wrote up a journal entry about what I wrote here and everyone's responses. I'll bring up my thoughts with my therapist later. Maybe this is weird but I threw the journal entry into ChatGPT. If nothing else it was positive and cheerful, which is helpful. But I was able to drill down on a few different things and got answers that sound reasonable. This is surely a common enough topic that it's got good training data for it.

I'd also like to say, for whoever reads my comments, that much of what I wrote is more about following a thought as far as it will go more so than putting my internal constitution into writing. I'm here to be as malleable as I need to be.

I won't bury the lede - my friend isn't non-monogamous or polyamorous, and that's the crux of the issue. At the least, he has never really considered non-monogamy before.

My (31F) marriage is uniquely suited for non-monogamy and has been for ten years strong, and my husband (30M) is entirely comfortable with what I'm proposing here. My biggest concern is the risk to my friend’s (30M) feelings and his perspective. So, before I speak to him about it, rather than seeking advice exclusively from people who practice ENM, I am actually curious what everyone might think of the situation. I also think Tildes probably has the only pool of monogamous people on the internet who would be interested in discussing this topic respectfully and approaching it with curiosity or empathy rather than disgust - I know it's a strange topic for most people.

Essentially, over the past two years I've been spending more and more time with a friend of mine. My husband is a pretty good friend of his, but they are not extremely close or best friends, they know each other through me. My friend doesn't date a lot, and we simply find ourselves drawn to spending a lot of time together, having very long conversations late at night, and doing things like going on a few vacations alone together. We haven't discussed it, but there is an overwhelming sense that we would probably date, had I been single when we met. He's very respectful of me and my marriage, but sometimes we each end up innocently flirting with the other - small compliments about our appearances, comments about how our “love languages” tend to be similar, etc. A few weeks ago he asked me if my husband and I have an open marriage (I don't often share that aspect of my life, my husband and I have been functionally “monogamous” since I've known my friend, and we haven't dated anyone else for quite some time.) I answered by saying that I actually do have an open marriage, yes. His question caught me off guard. I didn't expect him to ever ask because he doesn't seem like the type of person who would be interested in non-monogamy. So, I asked him what he thinks about non-monogamy, and he said he hasn't thought about it much, and has always been monogamous in past relationships. I wanted to think more about what to do next, so at the time I didn't let him know that I was specifically attracted to him.

Certainly, it may be very wise to accept that my friend is likely just monogamous, as most people tend to be, and simply continue on with our normal platonic friendship as it is. However, recently I'm finding it harder to contain my feelings on the matter, and he doesn't exactly make it any easier on me, because I really think he engages as well. Recently a mutual friend asked me if something was going on between us because she noticed him flirting with me. A couple of friends have agreed that the chemistry seems undeniable, so I don't think this is entirely one-sided.

At the least, I think I need to be honest with him that I'm attracted to him and open to some kind of romantic/sexual relationship with him. That way, if he says this makes him uncomfortable, I know I have to adjust my expectations and put proper boundaries in place. Of course, my hope is that he might be interested as well, at which point we can discuss what that would look like, but that's a separate topic because first I want to approach this with caution and respect.

I feel that it's really the sexual element that is up in the air. We already spend a lot of time together, and any purely monogamous person would probably already consider our behavior to be “emotional cheating,” if it happened to their marriage. I don't think most male/female friendships involve endless late night conversations, casual flirting, and prioritizing each other over other friends. To me, adding sex to the relationship seems like a no-brainer since we seem attracted to each other, but obviously most people wouldn't feel the same way.

Also, imagine the same situation, but with the genders flipped. We've all heard stories of unfortunate women who thought they had a great friendship with a man, only to eventually find out that the guy had been pining after her sexually for some time. My worst fear here is making my friend feel like our relationship was shallow, or that I was just trying to get something from him. But I didn't end up here on purpose, I just found myself here somehow - and I also would be more than happy to remain just friends with him if that's what he wants.

What would you think if you were a fairly monogamous person, and your close, non-monogamous friend admitted they have feelings for you? Would you be offended or hurt? Do you think there is a tactful way to bring it up? Would you prefer they never tell you, so you can just continue your friendship as normal, or for them to just move on without you if they can't let go of the idea?

Of course, the only real answer is that I won't know how he feels unless I ask him about it. I just thought I would talk this out with some kind strangers before jumping in. My brain seems quite wired for non-monogamy, and sometimes I struggle to see things from the perspective of monogamous people. Jealousy is not an emotion I have experienced often in relationships. I am flattered when any of my male or female friends admit attraction to me. Some of my friend groups are very queer and/or polyamorous, where behavior like dating your friends or being friends with ex-partners is fairly typical. But this friend is from a part of my life where non-monogamy is not as much of a given. I am also a bit worried about what our monogamous friends would think, as we do spend a lot of time in the same group of friends. I am worried that if he were to meet someone in the future who he wanted a relationship with, the woman wouldn't be comfortable having me around in the group, especially if I am still practicing non-monogamy at the time. I have many worries. Non-monogamy is complex. But mostly, I feel like this could work.

I know some of you are non-monogamous and I'm definitely interested in your thoughts, but I wanted to specify that I'm open to anyone else's take as well.

I'm facing this now and it seems like an impossible and monumental choice.

How did you decide to marry your partner? How long had you been together? If you lived together beforehand, for how long? Did you make you choice on having kids before marriage?

I have a problem. My wife is currently training for a half-marathon and getting really into it. She's getting anxiety about being able to finish her training runs, she's telling me how much this is going to mean to her, and comparing the race with her giving birth to our children.

My problem is that I just don't "get it".

As a good partner, I'm really trying to support her. I have never said anything negative about her running, I've always watched the kids when she needs to train, and I'll absolutely be there during the run to cheer her on. But deep down it just doesn't feel like a 'big deal' to me.

I'm glad that she's healthy and exercising regularly, and that she's getting some mental relief from being a stay-at-home-Mom. But just running a long way is just that. I liken it to saying everyday after dinner, I'm going to go stack some rocks in the front yard. And then one day saying "Wow, I'm going to stack them 10 feet high!". And really expecting her to get excited for me because of that.

Running feels like a personal accomplishment, and because of that, I'm sure she's excited personally, but I'm just not that impressed. I've always hid that part, and just said things like "way to go babe!" or "I knew you could do it", but she could tell this morning that I wasn't truly excited about it.

To compound things, her sister and brother-in-law are avid runners, and they've both done marathons. She is just in awe of them, and they all hype this up to each other. On his last run (a 30 mile trail run) he was faltering, but made it through. Everyone is just so impressed with his accomplishment. I mean its cool that he's good at his hobby, but also that kind of shit cannot be good for your body, and he had like a 3 day recovery period where his wife is watching the kids almost exclusively.

Why is he doing that to himself, and even more importantly, why is everyone around us so excited that he did? I feel like they're getting excited that someone went to the gym and worked out, but just in an extreme manner.

What is wrong with me? Please help me understand why I'm not excited that my wife is running a long distance.

Hiya folks!

My partner (M36) and I (F30) have been in a relationship for 2 years (living together for 1) and have started talking about marriage lately. Neither of us has popped the question yet (we both want to be proposed to), but we're starting to do "Marriage Mondays" and work through The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by John M. Gottman and Nan Silver. (I was also thinking of reading The ADHD Effect on Marriage by Melissa Orlov since my partner has ADHD.)

We're both big into communication, studying relationship books, and making sure we iron things out before we take the next step. Before we moved in, we talked about divvying up household chores and made a spreadsheet detailing who does what. We also made sure that the spreadsheet was not a holy text, and if one of us was feeling bad (whether because of sickness, mental health, or work stress), the other would temporarily pick up the slack (or at least cut the other person some slack!) It's been great so far and I really do feel like we're in an equitable partnership. (As much as it can be, at least!)

But of course, marriage is a whole other story. We both live in a different country from where we're from and if we ever have kids, we won't be able to rely on either one of our families for much. I know the major topics of finance, kids, and careers, but is there anything else (besides the wedding) you all may have done or questions you asked to "prepare" for marriage?

This is a topic that I have been holding to myself for quite some time, mostly because I didn't know how to quite phrase what I wanted to say. I still don't think I am going to do the best job but I wanted to hear what other peoples thoughts.

I'm someone who has always valued my few friendships very highly. My dad drilled into me at a young age that it is better to have fewer, high quality friendships than a plethora of not very meaningful relationships.

As people age and move on to different stages in their life, I completely understand that some people might not have the same amount of time to give you in a day that they previously used to. People get busy, have relationships, get married, etc. Which brings me to my situation and how I feel:

I have a friend who I've known since high school, and we're both 30 now. We've always been pretty good friends and in our later 20's we got even closer. I would say that we both deviate from the 'typical' unemotional guys who don't share how they feel with others. Both him and I would let us know what's going on in our lives and how it made us feel, etc. During this time, he was in a relationship (which he was not super happy with, due to some actions his partner did), but would share some of his more inner thoughts with me rather than her. They weren't the best at communicating with one another.

Fast forward two to three years, I got married, my friend broke up with his then partner. He moved back to his parents place, and the time before my marriage (I lived with my parents and had access to a car) I would try and visit him as often as I can just to hang out at night, or to see how he's doing. I've even driven over at midnight just to hangout with him until 4 AM because he was feeling lonely.

He congratulated me online (my wedding took place in another country, and I know none of my friends could afford to, or would not want to, travel just for a ceremony, so I didn't really invite anyone) but also indirectly told me he was jealous that I was married and stuff and he wasn't. For him, getting married is a much bigger deal than it is for me, I never really minded being single or alone. Please don't misconstrue this as me not being appreciative of my wife. She is very dear to me and I always to provide the best for her.

Fast forward another 2 years, and my friend got married to someone he met online. Since then our friendship has been mostly one sided almost. I had to initiate almost every conversation, and it's like messaging a blank wall, there's no reciprocation, and if there is it is very shallow. On top of that, we hang out much less as well (which I get, you do have to give a certain amount of commitment and attention to your spouse) so messaging is the main way to keep in touch.

Don't get me wrong, I've had this happen to me plenty of times. Mostly in university, had a couple of really good friends (or so I thought), as soon as they get a girlfriend, most of them forget I even exist. Maybe I expected more because I've known him for so long, or maybe I should expect less and accept that in the way our current society is shaped people start forming a bubble around themselves past a certain point in their life and you're no longer included in it.

Maybe this post came off as me being really entitled, I don't know. I just wanted to vent my frustrations somewhere. What does everyone on here think about relationships with their friends when you're married? Are you okay with seeing them less often? Is this just an expected outcome of being married?

I'm finally ready to sacrifice my self esteem and faith in humanity at the altar of dating apps. My question for those of you with more experience with them is this - do different apps attract noticeably different pools of users? What have you noticed comparing the populations on different apps? Which wound up working best for you, if any of them did?

Any that had particular features that bothered you? I've been using Hinge for like a day and already discovered they have a separate queue for your best matches that they demand a premium currency to message :/

Two years ago by wife and I split up as friends and while I understand it and think it was the right move, I'm still in tears and the feeling of a broken and pointless life. She moved on, found friends, new hobbies, new whatever. I still am where she left me and I don't know what to do. We've been together for almost 20 years and while I wasn't very communicative before, I sure ain't now. Even less than before.

I tried finding new friends, but I can't really read people and seem to misinterpret everything. I've met a woman on my daily walks with my dogs and her dog loves me and my little idiot dog. We two seemed to like eachother and after a few months of random meetups I asked her if I should give her my email (because I thought that would be less intrusive than my phone) to meet for walks. I made clear that I didn't intend to hit on her, but the look on her face broke my heart. I can't really tell what it was, but it wasn't positive. Now I'm back in my hole and back at feeling alone.

How do people move on? How can I get out of this... I don't know, terrible loneliness combined with the fear of seeing that expression again if I open up to others? I don't think I can handle this often.

Following an off-topic conversation starting here:

https://tildes.net/~health.coronavirus/mq7/advice_from_a_doctor_who_studied_coronaviruses_for_50_years#comment-4qi7

I thought it would be handy to establish that life still continues even in pandemic lockdown. One participant mentions a successful video date, and another wishes for sex.

The questions below may be personal and sensitive - please use your best judgement in answering or refraining to do so. Usual Tildes rules of courtesy apply.

1. If you're in a relationship, what are you doing to keep it alive and healthy?

2. If you're not partnered, what are you doing, if anything, to date or otherwise meet your needs while everything is closed down (if this is the case where you are)?

3. Does your idea of love or sex require physical contact?

4. If physical contact is required, what, if anything, are you doing to stay safe right now?

I'm a huge fan of the Peter Paul and Mary version of Don't Think Twice It's All Right
Don't Think Twice It's All Right

But some people prefer the Bob Dylan version (love the harmonica)
Don't Think Twice It's All Right

For my lover left me songs, I really like Pink's version of Me and Bobbie McGee
Me and Bobbie McGee

Does anyone else want to share a favorite song about being the one leaving or the one being left?

Right now, the number one post on my personal Reddit feed is this: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/9bryj8/straight_guys_of_reddit_whats_the_most_intimate/

Reading through this made me feel quite a few different emotions, but I would say that my biggest takeaway is disappointment.

I'm pretty young, being in my late twenties, but I know that the largest Reddit demographic is younger than me. And it terrifies me to see that people who are probably less than 15 years younger than me appear to be far more stricken by toxic masculinity than I was when I was their age. Right now the top response is a story about someone scratching his friend's back during a military deployment. He later mentions that his comrades gave him a hard time for it. Is the idea of machismo so fragile that we cannot take simple actions - even to provide relief to a friend?

I'll be the first to admit that a single AskReddit thread is not going to be an accurate representation of the levels of intimacy men actually give each other. But the simple fact that it's full of jokes, to me, makes it appear that they are using humor as a defense mechanism.

The fact that young men have so many barriers preventing them from building bonds with other men in a society often partitioned by gender deeply concerns me. I worry that this is the beginning of a societal issue in the same vein as racism was for our parents and grandparents and will only cause more problems as we age and gain political sway.

I'm bringing this up here because I would like some perspective on this. I've always been very sympathetic to other people, and my views as a gay man are obviously going to be different from straight men. Where is this toxicity coming from? Is there a way we can stop it, or is it already ingrained in the collective psyche?

As the title says I got into my first relationship this past week (Im 22; male) and boy do I feel happy. Now I gotta be the best me I can be, any relationship tips for a dude? (I'll take advice from all genders).

Thank you!

1 week later edit: Thank you to everyone who offered advice based on their experience. I got a taste of different stories however the tl;dr seems to be:

• be honest, even if the truth is ugly
• constant open communication
• stay true to yourself
• dont rush things; let things happen naturally
• if things don't turn out well; then thats just life

In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence. (Wikipedia)

Some of my fellow programmers seem to think the world turns around their knowledge as if there was no valid reasoning whatsoever beyond math and computer science. They seem to think logic (a tool with multiple uses which exists since at least 380 BC) is merely an attribute of computer science. It's not uncommon for them to think they can understand the intricacies of every phenomenon under the sun.

I have to control myself to avoid countering each of their flawed arguments. To my own detriment, I'm not always able to do so. I feel surrounded by arrogance and cognitive bias, and have to silence my better judgment in order to avoid constant conflict.

To be clear, I'm not looking for advice, as I already know the "solution", which is no solution. You can't use reason to fight something that is not motivated by reason. I'm posting to know your stories and maybe find some solace in the knowledge that I'm not alone.

Have you ever had to deal directly with people who grossly inflate their own competence, possibly stretching it to an unrelated field? if so, what's your story?

Seeking recommendations for Ethical Non-Monogamy (ENM) apps for a bi gal like myself for cute dates with other women only?

So far most of what I've tried have been very limited/one way interactions (unsure if people have forgotten how to ask questions!?). ONLY SEEKING FOR SELF, NO UNICORNS/NOT A UNICORN. Sorry just had to make that clear....

Any recommendations would be appreciated! PS am Au based not USA...

I'm interested in knowing how fellow Tilders became engaged and subsequently married. Let's just say I was given some personal reasons to think about the subject lately...

I'm interested in knowing what steps led you and your significant other to consider the possibility, how you became engaged, how long did you know each other beforehand, etc...

You know, the kind of thing someone that never considered marriage as an option is utterly ignorant about :P

Any advice?

In all of the recent talk about incels, gender differentials in home tasks, and domestic violence, there's been little discussion about what makes a good relationship - sexual, psychological, experiential or other compatibilities. There's a great deal of "Psychology Today" material on what makes for successful relationships, but it seems facile and the product of research on young WEIRD participants.

So, dear Tilders, if you have or have had a partner(s) you've been genuinely happy and satisfied with, and felt like your relationship was healthy, please discuss what made you so...

I don't necessarily mean your exact kinks, more the overall psychological and emotional aspects.

I just had a conversation with my girlfriend about this very topic, discussing why we liked the things we do.

Having thought through it more thoroughly, I find that giving up power makes me feel desired and objectified by the dominant in a safe environment, which is a feeling I seldom get to experience as I'm neither an 7+ out of 10 or in otherwise position to attract that kind of attention.

In addition, always feeling like I have to control every situation I'm in and often feeling somewhat anxious if I'm in an unfamiliar environment, this sort of play also allows me to safely relinquish control.

How about you?